Getting refused to EX groups as a DRK

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ipkonfig

Boy all these poor DRKs crying makes me sad :(. Just focus on the class and learn to tank with it. DRK is great. Doesn't get out damaged by PLD by the way. I don't know why people keep saying that, Royal Authority's combo is lower average potency than anything a DRK can do, and Goring Blade is also gated by a combo while Scourge is just a stand alone 500 potency. I'm typically 150 to 200 DPS higher than a PLD.

Actually was doing a Bis Ex clear for a member today and the PLD tank got knocked off right at the beginning of the third phase and I tanked all three adds for the rest of the fight till we cleared. But yea, third rate tank. Please just actually TRY and learn the class instead of being terrible with it and calling it bad.

---

Nope we gotta stick with PLD/WAR only for the next 9 years good times

I haven't had any trouble with DRK at all. As a matter of fact, I'm not totally convinced that I won't let it replace my PLD as my primary tanking class. In playing though, I've yet to have anybody complain to be about being a DRK, nor cause any wipes because of a lack of abilities to use.

As a healer, my least favorite tank to have is still warrior, but that's just personal nit-picking and I am still able to play through content just fine so long as said warrior isn't a complete idiot. Ultimately that's been what it's come down to for me, though... whether or not the person tanking is a good player, not which class they are using. If anything, I think the reason DRK MIGHT seem bad to some people is because all the green tanks that instantly picked it up at release, thus not having time to ease into the tanking job like they would had they started with PLD or WAR.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Galgarion

It's hard figuring out the character niche of the Dark Knight as well for group play. The Warrior is a powerful beast who runs wild on his enemies; a trash-talking, mouth smashing brute carved out of rock who dishes out more pain than he receives. The Paladin is a gallant protector, a chivalrous knight, the quintessential 'heroic figure' who never leaves a comrade behind, and fears nothing and no one. The traditional theme for dark Knights is 'selfishness and pain' but where does that fit in for his tanking theme? Like, how do you translate something like that into fun gameplay that involves protecting others? The most memorable DK I can recall was Gaffgarion from FF:Tactics, and he was pretty much a jaded dick.

---

Could be wrong, but I got the impression that DRK has a decent archetype.
Yoshida even mentioned Berserk's Guts as an example. It's an anti-hero that uses dark powers (the powers of his enemies) to defend the weak.
There's still a theme of sacrifice, but its their sacrifice since you drain their power for health and mp. That's the impression I'm getting anyway.
Also, feels like Batman, lol.

For story purposes, you shouldn't look further than Cecil (for in-house references) in FFIV.
Cecil was a defender and righteous even as a Dark Knight, and he is the quintessential DRK being the breakout character for the Job (like Kain is to DRG).
And he was anything but selfish.
He sacrificed himself to darkness to serve a greater cause of defending the weak, like all the anti-heroes of that type (Guts, Batman, etc.)

As a DRK, even after they fixed double DA, I can still pull 800 DPS (1000-0 TP) on dummy, and in BisEX my fight average is always around 600 DPS. For the carapace phases we have pretty solid burst with our oGCDs and MP dumping with chain DA's. I am usually above at least 1 real DPS class which is nice, but pretty sad if you think about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jahaudant

As a DRK, even after they fixed double DA, I can still pull 800 DPS (1000-0 TP) on dummy, and in BisEX my fight average is always around 600 DPS. For the carapace phases we have pretty solid burst with our oGCDs and MP dumping with chain DA's. I am usually above at least 1 real DPS class which is nice, but pretty sad if you think about it.

---

Yeah pulling 800 DPS on a dummy 1000-0 TP is great except that no fight in the end game is going to last 2 minutes so the whole point is that even if you have higher dps then a war for 2 mins that war is going to kill you over 5 mins which is what most fights in this game is balanced having small tp regen breaks with.

Its not that DRK is broken like war was in 2.0. Its just that they are objectively worst in every aspect to one or the other tank. Sure you can clear everything with one but your basically asking for charity from your group because if they took some one else they would be more effective.

A lot of people in these threads are confusing

"Is useable"

with

"Is viable"

Just because the DRK is capable of doing the content does not mean they are in an ok place. WAR and PLD are just plain better. Some of the mental gymnastics that people use to prove other tanks arent as good is just hilarious at that. Like saying that defiance isnt real mitigation because it just ups the HP: ignoring the fact that one big point of defiance is that it also improves healing effects. Or how I have many times seen people comparing DRK skills to other tank skills minus the new HW ones.

I just did Bis Ex last night with my fc using DRK in all ilvl180 VIT gear and all stats in STR and i didnt find it to be that bad really. As far as I know from my group i wasnt taking anymore damage than the WAR really and we didnt have any issue with dps checks. Before that though I was also getting refused from groups because i was DRK. People need to just ease up a bit and stop being min-maxers just let us play the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tila

A lot of people in these threads are confusing

"Is useable"

with

"Is viable"

Just because the DRK is capable of doing the content does not mean they are in an ok place. WAR and PLD are just plain better. Some of the mental gymnastics that people use to prove other tanks arent as good is just hilarious at that. Like saying that defiance isnt real mitigation because it just ups the HP: ignoring the fact that one big point of defiance is that it also improves healing effects. Or how I have many times seen people comparing DRK skills to other tank skills minus the new HW ones.

---

It's a legitimate confusion.
If the DRK is capable of performing the content, then who really cares if other tanks can do it better, other than folks who get into wankery about minmaxing?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RissienNorolithe

I just did Bis Ex last night with my fc using DRK in all ilvl180 VIT gear and all stats in STR and i didnt find it to be that bad really. As far as I know from my group i wasnt taking anymore damage than the WAR really and we didnt have any issue with dps checks. Before that though I was also getting refused from groups because i was DRK. People need to just ease up a bit and stop being min-maxers just let us play the game.

---

Bis EX is an i140 lvl fight, of course it felt fine at i180. All 3 tanks can go full STR and tank that fight, its zzz content. Same with Ravana EX tanks need to be i145ish for that fight.

DRK needs some tweaks and I'm sure they will get some soon. Hopefully before Alex Savage.

The biggest problem with this thread is that there is no content out there to test tanks right now. Once we are ungeared for a fight the true colors will be more obvious to the masses.

@RissienNorolithe - You're not finding it bad, because it isn't. If you look at a majority of these posts these people don't even play the class at end game, they have no real idea of what a DRK tank is like and just base everything off conjecture. Both Bis Ex and Rav Ex are easily handled by DRK without hindering a party whatsoever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Viviza

This sounds like a story we're only getting half of.

I've yet to see a group really care about this. I suspect that the player has something to do with it, or is exaggerating.

---

Probably an anti-brony policy more than anything.

My major problem with DRK is OT Sustain and MT Sustain. Bottoming out on TP after 120 seconds is pretty infuriating. No other class in the game has such a vicious drain on TP without some method of restore.

If, for example, Blood Weapon being used/expiring naturally restored 100 TP per use, or could be DA'd to restore 200 TP (if it needed a resource cost to balance it), that'd solve a lot of the TP problems (or patch it over well) that DRK has for OT sustain. MT sustain would just have to deal, I guess. 180 seconds is not good, but acceptable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tila

Like saying that defiance isnt real mitigation because it just ups the HP: ignoring the fact that one big point of defiance is that it also improves healing effects.

---

One day, just like with the screen shot of the huge crit Fel Cleave, you will see a healer post a screen shot of like an 11k Cure II on a Warrior Tank who was in Defiance with the other Paladin cross-class HP+ healing effect skill on, with a mind potion popped, with full healing cooldowns and people will be like "Omg WHM so OP for heals." All perfect conditions with all the +Healing and stuff for the ultimate screen shot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SirTaint

Bis EX is an i140 lvl fight, of course it felt fine at i180. All 3 tanks can go full STR and tank that fight, its zzz content. Same with Ravana EX tanks need to be i145ish for that fight.

DRK needs some tweaks and I'm sure they will get some soon. Hopefully before Alex Savage.

The biggest problem with this thread is that there is no content out there to test tanks right now. Once we are ungeared for a fight the true colors will be more obvious to the masses.

---

Ironically, did BiS ex last night. Other tank was a full 170 half 180 geared drk. Myself was sitting 167 ilvl. The DRK caused a few wipes by dying to simple stuff, kept running out of mana, didn't always keep darkside up, he had problems killing the little add on P3 by himself, messed up some trash grabs etc...

Its understandable where all the "loldrk" is coming from, since it seems much more likely that a bad tank will be a DRK than one of the other classes.

And yes, at the end the two healers said they wouldn't want to group with a DRK again.

L O L

I'm just gonna leave this here ... PS: I was in Grit (tank stance reducing dmg done by-20% like PLD's Shield Oath) half of the fight . . . .

That was a random pug, second I went into, we cleared it on 4th try

Without the power of DRK's dps as OT, I'm not sure some groups would get past the DPS checks LOL

http://i.imgur.com/l0VtXOA.jpg

^ click to enlarge

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyunckel

L O L

I'm just gonna leave this here ... PS: I was in Grit (tank stance reducing dmg done by-20% like PLD's Shield Oath) half of the fight . . . .

That was a random pug, second I went into, we cleared it on 4th try

Without the power of DRK's dps as OT, I'm not sure some groups would get past the DPS checks LOL

http://i.imgur.com/l0VtXOA.jpg

^ click to enlarge

---

But that doesn't really say much. I go through dungeons outDPSing DPS players all the time in my tank stance. Hell, I had one run where I was outdoing one of the DPS by 60%. Doesn't mean DRK's output is good, it just means those DPS are criminally bad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mattiux

I really don't understand why SE have to build a job less usefull than the other two of the same category. This issue are so obvious, how can't you see that coming?

By the way, easy fix: put out the marauder sub-class and welcome in Lancer. Keen fury fits better with the DrK ability, invigorate can solve the TP issue ( no reason to have a TP issue when you are a MP managing class). Blood for Blood fits in the job story and mood, increasing the Dps of the bit needed to keep up with a War to use in OT stance.

---

I would actually love to see this, even if I haven't leveled up lancer much yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krissey

Probably an anti-brony policy more than anything.

---

Yesterday, there was a guy shouting in Foundation how the largest FC on the server discriminated against him for being gay. Fun fact, the FC's leader is also, in fact, gay. Question is was he lying, or do the people in the FC not even realize?

Best part is he made a PF saying he'd give 100k to anyone that left the FC. 200k if you convinced a friend.

Another PF said the guy lied and didn't pay him.

^^^
I'm in that FC and that person has been trying to troll and discredit the FC for days now.
We are aware and he has been reported both by FC members and by people in general that have gotten sick of his ranting, but at this point it is out of our hands and up to SE on what they decide to do on the matter.

Myself and many others in the FC have just decided to ignore them since fanning the flames will not result in anything good.

Also, yes our founder is openly gay as are others in the FC and the FC does not look kindly upon discrimination and people have been kicked for spewing hateful rhetoric in chat or shout.

When someone does something like that they will be warned by an officer to please not continue, if they keep on even when warned multiple times they will then be kicked. I have been in the FC a long time and have never seen someone get kicked for any unfair reason.

The person in question is just flipping out because they were kicked due to harassing other players in FC chat and continueing to do so after being warned multiple times. Their current actions show the type of person they are and all they are doing is making themselves look bad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shadow12000

Yesterday, there was a guy shouting in Foundation how the largest FC on the server discriminated against him for being gay. Fun fact, the FC's leader is also, in fact, gay. Question is was he lying, or do the people in the FC not even realize?

Best part is he made a PF saying he'd give 100k to anyone that left the FC. 200k if you convinced a friend.

Another PF said the guy lied and didn't pay him.

---

Is this joke building on my joke? I'm not sure I understand :(

Brony is someone who loves My Little Pony. I was saying maybe it's not that they are excluded because they are DRK, but because they like MLP.

Running both DRK and WAR in a comp that has a NIN, the DPS is about the same between the two classes, BUT, DRK is higher in a purely MTing capacity. This is assuming the WAR stays in Defiance and uses Wrath for Inner Beast.

Honestly I still feel squishier on my WAR than my DRK, but DRK definitely takes way more focus. Since the other tank in my comp only plays PLD I've been going DRK since we have a NIN.

Since I've yet to perfect the rotation for DRK I'll probably go as WAR into Alex the first few times, but eventually swap to DRK once I know the setup.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tila

And yes, at the end the two healers said they wouldn't want to group with a DRK again.

---

who cares lol

there are garbage players of every class

they wont group with a DRK again... until, of course, they need a tank for their group and the DRK player in question has a desirable item level as well as an abundance of raid experience.

The amount of deja vu in here is a little disorienting. Same old bullshit, different release.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ipkonfig

Running both DRK and WAR in a comp that has a NIN, the DPS is about the same between the two classes, BUT, DRK is higher in a purely MTing capacity. This is assuming the WAR stays in Defiance and uses Wrath for Inner Beast.

Honestly I still feel squishier on my WAR than my DRK, but DRK definitely takes way more focus. Since the other tank in my comp only plays PLD I've been going DRK since we have a NIN.

Since I've yet to perfect the rotation for DRK I'll probably go as WAR into Alex the first few times, but eventually swap to DRK once I know the setup.

---

Um... what? WAR is a far better MT than DRK in every capacity save magic exclusive foes, where even then, it's still quite close.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kiteless

Um... what? WAR is a far better MT than DRK in every capacity save magic exclusive foes, where even then, it's still quite close.

---

You keep saying this, yet it's not true.

DRK is a better MT than WAR... well, shouldn't say better, but has more overall mitigation. A good player of either job can perform well. Though most healers I've been with say they'd prefer to heal a DRK over a WAR because they think WARs feel squishy.

Maybe it's because those WARs are stance dancing and doing it poorly?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaedan94

You keep saying this, yet it's not true.

DRK is a better MT than WAR... well, shouldn't say better, but has more overall mitigation. A good player of either job can perform well. Though most healers I've been with say they'd prefer to heal a DRK over a WAR because they think WARs feel squishy.

Maybe it's because those WARs are stance dancing and doing it poorly?

---

i can confirm this as i have played both DRK and SCH and as a SCH i tend to prefer healing the DRK more than the WAR because of the stance dancing at least with DRK they are pretty much always in grit when in a dungeon. but i have noticed DRK does still need to have a bit of attention on some aspects... like DA dark dance...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dragoelete

i can confirm this as i have played both DRK and SCH and as a SCH i tend to prefer healing the DRK more than the WAR because of the stance dancing at least with DRK they are pretty much always in grit when in a dungeon. but i have noticed DRK does still need to have a bit of attention on some aspects... like DA dark dance...

---

The bold! It explains why! I promise if DRK was able to stance dance effectively, we'd be the same as Warriors. :x

the thing is that DRK doesnt need to stance dance... they can have DS on while they still have grit on WAR cant...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dragoelete

the thing is that DRK doesnt need to stance dance... they can have DS on while they still have grit on WAR cant...

---

I would LOOOOOOVE to use Blood Weapon for MP efficiency. Just saying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaedan94

You keep saying this, yet it's not true.

DRK is a better MT than WAR... well, shouldn't say better, but has more overall mitigation. A good player of either job can perform well. Though most healers I've been with say they'd prefer to heal a DRK over a WAR because they think WARs feel squishy.

Maybe it's because those WARs are stance dancing and doing it poorly?

---

Better mitigation in what way? Nothing in DRK's toolkit compares to having IB up for every tank buster, the only real threat to tanks in the game. That is what people mean when they say WAR is the better MT, because as MT the only things that should be killing you are the big hits and WAR is incredibly good at eating those.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaedan94

You keep saying this, yet it's not true.

DRK is a better MT than WAR... well, shouldn't say better, but has more overall mitigation. A good player of either job can perform well. Though most healers I've been with say they'd prefer to heal a DRK over a WAR because they think WARs feel squishy.

Maybe it's because those WARs are stance dancing and doing it poorly?

---

Aaaaaand it's time to bring this post out again. All you had to do was look back in the thread....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kiteless

Comparing WAR and DRK mitigation:

1. Inner Beast: 20% reduction (also provides a 100% HP conversion rate as an extra effect). Usable pretty much every 15 seconds for 6 seconds at a time, with Infuriate allowing for more frequent use.

2. Vengeance: Strictly better than any mitigation skill that DRK has. Offers a shorter cooldown than Shadow Wall, with the same mitigation and a longer duration, a damaging secondary effect, and application of wrath stacks.

3. Raw intuition: 20% physical damage reduction from the front with a solid 20 second duration on a 90 second cooldown.

4. Storm's Path: 10% damage reduction with 50% HP conversion rate that is easy to keep up at all times when necessary, with no requirement other than being in a combo (that refreshes your 20% damage boost). Utility move that can be used from an OT or MT situation, if needed.

5. Holmgang: TO THE LAST, I GRAPPLE WITH THEE! 6 seconds of not dying. No Hallowed Ground, but it gets the job done.

This is in addition to Defiance, which grants a 25% health increase *in addition to a 20% increase in healing*. There's also the parry buff which increases with Wrath stacks, not particularly huge, but worth noting at least. While this isn't strictly mitigation in itself, it is a clear increase in EHP for when it's needed. Additionally, being off the GCD makes stance dancing not only a breeze, but encouraged for optimal usage in all forms.

DRK has:

1. Grit: Tank stance, 20% damage reduction. Its ridiculous MP cost and being on the GCD sucks, but it does what it needs to. Stance dancing is hard to properly encourage, since the MP cost makes it hard to justify switching back and forth, even with regen from Blood Weapon, and being on the GCD makes the actual switch without a DPS loss difficult.

2. Shadowskin: This is a reskinned rampart, 20% reduction, 20 seconds every 90. Good skill.

3. Shadow Wall: As noted above, this suffers from being the worst of everything between PLD and WAR cooldowns. WAR level mitigation, shorter duration, no secondary bonus, 180 second cooldown. Sucks, but we use it because we have nothing better.

4. Dark Mind: 15% magic damage reduction, 30% if using Dark Arts. Costly under DA, but extremely effective against magic tankbusters with a surprisingly short cooldown. The main problem is that most tank busters tend to be physical. That said, not bad.

5. Reprisal: 10% damage reduction, only applicable after a parry, meaning it can't be used against enemies that rely on purely magical damage (Ramuh) and only during an extremely short window. Should not be relied upon.

6. Living Dead: Similar to Holmgang, except you can cast it in advance, and it lasts a good bit longer. Major downside, in addition to have a way longer cooldown, however, is that once activated, it requires heavy healer attention to avoid dying, defeating a lot of its supposed utility as an "oh shit" button. Furthermore, in order to not die after its use, you must be healed for exactly your full amount of health. Because the skill leaves you with 1HP, you will die, even if you are healed to full. You must sustain further damage after Walking Dead activates so that it can be healed. This makes Living Dead not only incredibly unreliable, but also punishes smart play.

Dark Dance does not count as a viable damage mitigation skill outside of trash mobs, since it is in no way reliable (and 30% parry rate on a cooldown is terrible anyway). Dark Arts version should not be used because it is not only not reliable, but also interacts poorly with other skills, preventing their application. And with Living Dead, that evasion rate can end up killing you.
As for Delirium, if that 10% Int debuff is really that important, just get a MNK to do it for you.

So, if you're going to go out of your way to not include Defiance's HP increase as the quasi-mitigation skill and include Dark Dance as one (at which point, you might as well include lolForesight), DRK might have two more mitigation skills than WAR, but WAR's are substantially better, and capable of being kept up far more often, for a longer period of time, and far more reliably. It also doesn't count the inclusion of Equilibrium, which provides a stronger effect than DRK's closest equivalent, Sole Survivor, with half the cooldown time and no prerequisite for activation, and doesn't need to be applied in advance, allowing you to use it on demand.


Reprisal is the only mitigation skill that would be notable from DRK's point of view as a main tank, but it's unreliable for the purposes of mitigating tank busters, thanks to its extremely short activation period and parry requirement meaning you can't save it and guarantee its use when it's likely to be the most valued, and thus is not worth considering for the purposes of MT utility.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaedan94

You keep saying this, yet it's not true.

DRK is a better MT than WAR... well, shouldn't say better, but has more overall mitigation. A good player of either job can perform well. Though most healers I've been with say they'd prefer to heal a DRK over a WAR because they think WARs feel squishy.

Maybe it's because those WARs are stance dancing and doing it poorly?

---

No, it actually is pretty true. Inner Beast alone is a huge trump for a Warrior over a Drk. Warrior feels squishier overall simply because they don't have a raw mitigation tank stance like Drk does, they take more damage, but they get healed for more. Their HP is going to fluctuate a lot.

You can keep Storms Path going simply whenever, that's a permanent 10% damage reduction for everyone that doesn't rely on a parry to apply, meaning you can have it going when you actually need it most.

You can have Inner Beast on standby for when you need it consistently.

Raw Intuition is a 100% parry rate from the front, essentially a Rampart for physical damage. (You should never be getting hit from the back or side in a raid anyway)

Equilibrium is is a crazy strong potency heal they can use every 60 seconds which does exactly what self healing needs to do for it to matter; burst heal. And in Deliverence, well, good luck making a Warrior run out of TP.

Then you have Vengeance which that has a SHORTER cooldown and a LONGER duration than Shadow Wall.

And then the usual cross class stuff that all tanks have. Not to mention, a lot of their cd's generate wrath, meaning even more IB uptime.

So when it comes down to it, Warrior feeling squishier than a Drk is an illusion. Their HP fluctuates, they get hit harder outside of their cd's, but get healed by more per heal, they've always been like that. Any Warrior that feels squishy with his cd's even, is likely not a very good Warrior, because with a CD up they essentially have a Drk's passive mitigation, with more damage, that also receives more healing, for their cd's duration. Thing is however, a Warrior can keep things in cycle almost like a Paladin can at this point, and when there are downtimes, Wrath is a static thing so long as you are in Defiance, and failing to have Inner Beast when you need it is a sign of a bad Warrior.

Warrior is far more 'developed' than Drk is. And that makes them very efficient OT's, and MT's for many fight. Any fight a Drk can MT, a Warrior can do better while bringing far more to the table in what they can do for both themselves, and the others in the raid group. Hell even Paladin as well, because neither of them are selfish tanks by poor design.


But even still with all of that aside, Drk can do many things, I have all of Alex down as a Drk, and even did the last floor with 2 Drk's. Sure it was hell, but an all magic fight like that is where it feels as if Drk is suppose to shine. Yet they don't, because in an all magic fight, you may as well take Reprisal off of your hotbar. If you have a monk, well there goes the only other thing you actually contribute to the group with.


tl;dr: Warriors being squishier than Drk is an illusion, or a sign of a very bad Warrior.

*sigh*

DRK:

-Grit: "Permanent" 20% Damage reduction
-Shadowskin: 20% Damage reduction for 20s every 90s
-Dark Dance: +30% chance to Parry for 20s every 60 seconds
-Dark Mind: 30% Magic damage reduction for 10s every 60 seconds
-Shadowwall: 30% damage reduction for 10s every 180 seconds
-Living Dead: "Invulnerability" for 10s, contingent upon having an amount of healing equal to your Max HP applied during that 10s. Every 300s

And I won't even include all the healing abilities we have available.

WAR:
-Holmgang: "Invulnerability" for 6s, but cannot move. Every 180s. Still need to be healed to safe levels before 6s is up (essentially same as DRK).
-Inner Beast: 20% damage reduction for 6s every 15-20 seconds IF planned for.
-Raw Intuition: 100% parry from front only for 20s every 90s.
-Vengeance: 30% damage reduction for 15s every 120s.

Again, not counting healing, just as I didn't for DRK.

Yeah, DRK has better mitigation. Plus, as I said, I think too many WARs stance dance / do so poorly so that's why healers don't like to heal them and they don't perform as well as MT.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaedan94

*sigh*

DRK:

-Grit: "Permanent" 20% Damage reduction
-Shadowskin: 20% Damage reduction for 20s every 90s
-Dark Dance: +30% chance to Parry for 20s every 60 seconds
-Dark Mind: 30% Magic damage reduction for 10s every 60 seconds
-Shadowwall: 30% damage reduction for 10s every 180 seconds
-Living Dead: "Invulnerability" for 10s, contingent upon having an amount of healing equal to your Max HP applied during that 10s. Every 300s

And I won't even include all the healing abilities we have available.

WAR:
-Holmgang: "Invulnerability" for 6s, but cannot move. Every 180s. Still need to be healed to safe levels before 6s is up (essentially same as DRK).
-Inner Beast: 20% damage reduction for 6s every 15-20 seconds IF planned for.
-Raw Intuition: 100% parry from front only for 20s every 90s.

Again, not counting healing, just as I didn't for DRK.

Yeah, DRK has better mitigation. Plus, as I said, I think too many WARs stance dance / do so poorly so that's why healers don't like to heal them and they don't perform as well as MT.

---

I love the bias'd as hell comparison. You're missing so many Warrior abilities in there it's almost hilarious. Hell you didn't even put Defiance in there, yet you listed Grit, LOL

If you think reducing incoming damage numbers is the only form of mitigation, I have news for you. Every Warrior has news for you.

Wow, Kaedan, don't play WAR. You forget about half their skills.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ditto

I love the bias'd as hell comparison. You're missing so many Warrior abilities in there it's almost hilarious. Hell you didn't even put Defiance in there, yet you listed Grit, LOL

If you think reducing incoming damage numbers is the only form of mitigation, I have news for you. Every Warrior has news for you.

---

I listed the mitigation abilities. That what we were discussing. If you want to add the non-mitigation abilities in there from WAR, then I get to add the non-mitigation abilities from DRK.

And yes, I didn't put Defiance in there because it only boosts HP, doesn't mitigate. If a WAR stance dances, it's pointless since the healer has to heal you for that 25% every time. Also, in every Trial I've done through Roulette, I've had equal to, more than, or only slightly less HP than a WAR with Defiance on. No WAR I've done DF content with has had 25% more HP than me as a DRK.

I did forget Vengeance, sorry. Will edit

Basically:

Grit >= Inner Beast
Shadowskin = WAR has nothing
Dark Dance < Raw Intuition
Dark Mind = WAR has nothing
Shadow Wall < Vengeance
Living Dead = Holmgang (in both cases the tank needs to be healed to a safe level. Holmgang is 4s less time, which cancels out the need for more healing on DRK)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ditto

Warrior feels squishier overall simply because they don't have a raw mitigation tank stance like Drk does, they take more damage, but they get healed for more. Their HP is going to fluctuate a lot.

---

No, that's not how math works. Healers don't look at numbers, they look at a bar and your % of the HP you have left. Between DRK & PLD with grit/shield oath vs. WAR with defiance, it's mathematically almost the exact same. All 3 tanks take the same amount of damage to die, exactly the same amount. The only difference is that the WAR requires about ~4% more healing than the other two tanks. With all the over healing that goes on in raids, in addition to the self heals from frequent inner beast usage, that 4% is pretty negligible.

WAR can feel a little squishy compared to PLD because they don't have a shield, and don't get free blocks. But other than that, a WAR should only feel squishy if they're not using their strong and relatively low cooldown mitigation abilities (inner beast, ToB, vengeance, storm's path), or not using them effectively. It's probably a bit more prevalent than it used to be due to easy stance dancing and using fel cleave instead of inner beast for MOAR DEEPZ! There's no reason a WAR concentrating on mitigation should feel squishier than a DRK.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaedan94

And yes, I didn't put Defiance in there because it only boosts HP, doesn't mitigate. If a WAR stance dances, it's pointless since the healer has to heal you for that 25% every time. Also, in every Trial I've done through Roulette, I've had equal to, more than, or only slightly less HP than a WAR with Defiance on. No WAR I've done DF content with has had 25% more HP than me as a DRK.

---

You're putting in X Factors into base comparisons..

> If they did this
> Equipped Gear
> Stat Allocation

And the Defiance mitigation, if I am not mistaken, is IB being used at will.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Giantbane

snip

---

which is the problem out of every 10 wars i have healed only 1 yes 1! has focused on mitigation...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Giantbane

No, that's not how math works. Healers don't look at numbers, they look at a bar and your % of the HP you have left. Between DRK & PLD with grit/shield oath vs. WAR with defiance, it's mathematically almost the exact same. All 3 tanks take the same amount of damage to die, exactly the same amount. The only difference is that the WAR requires about ~4% more healing than the other two tanks. With all the over healing that goes on in raids, in addition to the self heals from frequent inner beast usage, that 4% is pretty negligible.

---

This is no longer correct, as far as I've seen. I have yet to see a WAR with more than maybe 5% more HP than me, and most of the time they've been about equal with Defiance on. Of course I'll need to find a WAR with the exact same gear as me to test it accurately.

If WARs did have 25% more HP than PLDs or DRKs, then you'd be correct that it all "comes out in the wash" mathematically. But that doesn't appear to be the case.