memorial service for MCH

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryaz

Well, on paper, MCH doesn't look that bad A Ninja's basic combo of Spinning Edge (150), Gust Slash (200), and Aeolian Edge (320) has a total potency of 670. For MCH we have Split Shot (168), Slug Shot (216), and Clean Shot (240) plus three turret attacks of 94 damage would give us a total potency of 906. If you're using ammo, that increases to 966 potency total, which is massive and the reason why they added proc chance. The proc chance should keep us about even with other jobs for basic combo damage. We also have a really strong DoT in Lead Shot.
...

---

Lower weapon damage and a longer GCD (ninja has huton). Ninjas also get two DoTs, 20% damage boost with no strings attached (compared to hot shot using a GCD) and two oGCDs which are effectively stronger than both our graze/blank (if applicable), three if you count raiton/fuuma as a oGCD. They're also not dependent on having a DRG to buff their damage through resistance.

A lot of it is sound on paper, but some aspects of the class does not make any sense and even the numbers show if you break it down (that is, full time GB amounting to a very small, if not straight up damage loss). Wildfire gets defense calculated twice against it, so it's not a true 30% damage increase within that duration, and it's not ideal for current primals because the vulnerability phases don't last long enough for it to trigger (unless you throw it out at the start of your cooldowns rather than the end)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shneibel

1-2-1-3-2-3
140+180+140+200+180+200 = 1040 potency

---

I'm not a number cruncher. Is there a particular reason you propose the numerical order like this? Does it have to do with ammo going on certain abilities or not? Assuming no ammo at all and perfect world procs, 1-2-3-1-2-3 is also 1040 potency.

looking at ammo now, it adds 20 potency to each attack. This is additive, right? I feel like I'm missing something. Multiple people have suggested this 1-2-1-3-2-3 over 1-2-3-1-2-3 and I've been going over both, but I don't know the actual math behind the differences.

Take into consideration that devs prolly are on infinite stack of draconian potions and have best crit food on all the time, they sit on the notion that some 2 other player prolly have buffed them to the oblivion, so they come out and claim that MCH has enaugh dmg.
To put MCH players at rest all they have to do is provide proof with timed kills in lvl 60 4man dungeons and 3 MCH party on EX primals. Just need to post those videos, nothing like some video footage. Words are the most single unreliable evidence in the real world. We need some hard evidence not a claim from devs standpoint.
Or give us training dummy instances with 3 moving training dummies and mock aoe's with regular random paterns. just some small enaugh room for possible with up to 4 players so they can go in and train basic rotations so we are on the move, Lets say timed instance with 5-10 mins after the instance ends we are presented with the REAL DPS numbers from ingame engine, hell, they can even throw in enmity graph after the instance to show how enmity was distributed. Lorewise its so easy to implement, those goblins looks like are keen on machinery so its possible they repurposed some building in Idillyshire.

After weeks of involvement with and playin with members of my FC who are MCH I can safely say that this entire thread is completely off. 1. MCH does great dmg. 2. MCH has INCREDIBLE support capacity to make the rest of the party do better dmg... which means MCH brings damage. 3. ALL of its animations are as unique and original as any of the other 2.x classes minus ninja.... i.e. nothing looks like a MCH in combat. 4. I have witnessed the burning pitch move in action... idk what kind of math you people are doing but it does a HELL OF A LOT OF DAMAGE!.

Finally back on the not of bad animations.... have any of you even seen ricochet? It is by far one of the coolest looking moves in the game.... from ANY class.

MCH rocks and is performing fantastically.

Great job SE! Players, stop complaining about things that are clearly (and by clearly I mean demonstrated with math) not broken, or even lacking and start complaining about things that actually need help.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tsilyi

I'm not a number cruncher. Is there a particular reason you propose the numerical order like this? Does it have to do with ammo going on certain abilities or not? Assuming no ammo at all and perfect world procs, 1-2-3-1-2-3 is also 1040 potency.

looking at ammo now, it adds 20 potency to each attack. This is additive, right? I feel like I'm missing something. Multiple people have suggested this 1-2-1-3-2-3 over 1-2-3-1-2-3 and I've been going over both, but I don't know the actual math behind the differences.

---

Ammo is better used on split shot over clean shot if applicable. The former adds a 40 potency hit for continuing the combo +20 from ammo to split shot. Cleanshot only gets the +20 increase and no combo extension.

Another reason is that you could hold off procs for instant casts if you're in GB. But...GB...

Aha, I knew there was something I wasn't factoring in. It FELT stronger, but I didn't really know why. It makes sense now, and yeah the GB instant cast thing I was thinking but... GB ;-;

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by maelor

After weeks of involvement with and playin with members of my FC who are MCH I can safely say that this entire thread is completely off. 1. MCH does great dmg. 2. MCH has INCREDIBLE support capacity to make the rest of the party do better dmg... which means MCH brings damage. 3. ALL of its animations are as unique and original as any of the other 2.x classes minus ninja.... i.e. nothing looks like a MCH in combat. 4. I have witnessed the burning pitch move in action... idk what kind of math you people are doing but it does a HELL OF A LOT OF DAMAGE!.

Finally back on the not of bad animations.... have any of you even seen ricochet? It is by far one of the coolest looking moves in the game.... from ANY class.

MCH rocks and is performing fantastically.

Great job SE! Players, stop complaining about things that are clearly (and by clearly I mean demonstrated with math) to not be broken or even lacking, and start complaining about things that actually need help.

---

Ricochet only deals 100 damage to a single target and requires you to be in gauss barrel (arguably the one ability that is inherently damaging to the class). Losing auto attacks AND becoming immobile is a massively huge DENT in the damage a MCH will do in any of these fights. For instance taking a MCH to neverreap you will get a lot more abilities off PERIOD on that final boss where it knocks you around like a ragdoll. And we can expect bosses to be like this, for instance The Vault's final boss requires a heinous amount of movement. I severely doubt in anything but the most simple boss fights (The Aery for instance) you will not be punished for that cast time/missing Auto attacks. Only time I ever use Gauss is when I am in an AOE-farm situation, in which case it is clearly better. Anything else it is a miserable decision.

Overcharge either does one of the following: doubles MP/TP output (to 60/tick from 30/tick), increases magic (ONLY MAGIC) damage received by target by 5% for 15 seconds, increase physical (ONLY PHYSICAL) damage taken by 5% for 15 seconds. On a 2 minute cooldown timer with arguably the most valuable resource that the MCH brings (MP/TP) utilizing overcharge in a raid that counts to increase damage by those marginal amounts is a heinous joke. Even Bard can separate their double-MP/TP song separate from their MUCH MORE (DOUBLE) potency damage increase foes requiem. Hell they can even make foes double if they are burning a boss/dungeon. That makes it a 20% damage increase, not 5%.

Rendmind / Dismantle: 5%. FIVE PERCENT damage decrease from a single target on a shared cooldown timer for 10seconds duration and 90s SHARED cooldown. Virus from SMN/SCH, monk's intelligence debuff that is spammable, etc makes this look horrendous. HORRENDOUS.

Also if it does a hell of a lot of damage then that's wonderful... just means EVERYTHING deals "A LOT OF DAMAGE". Warriors deal more, white mages deal more, scholars deal more... hell AST deals more because their potency is the same as WHM that are actively outdpsing MCH in the field. And the "utility" that a MCH brings PALES in comparison to the utility a whitemage brings. I see a lot of raid groups starting to argue they'll take another healer who can off-heal and focus on dpsing over a brd/mch.


So the parody now is that anything a MCH can do a BRD can do better. They restore mp/tp just as well as a MCH and can offer pre-cast cleanse of conditions, damage increase on demand, etc. There is not a single unique thing a MCH offers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

...

---

I'm pretty sure that comment was sarcasming with his wording and the partenthesis.

Also, ricochet is 100+300 potency. The 300 is split evenly between targets (which might I add, is pretty shitty esp for a 1 minute CD ability). On a single target it'll hit for 400 total.

If anything, I'd say the cooldowns on our most useful skills is where it all bites us in the ass. Not Reload/Quick Reload actually. Those feel right. But Wildfire, Rapid Fire, Dismantle/Rend, Heartbreak, and Hypercharge don't need to be on such long cooldowns, especially for the not-so-great damage/potencies/up times they have. Kinda like the DRGs and Jumps before. Great tools, takes too long to have access to them again. I do hope SE's looking at that too. Just that alone could do a lot to improve MCH.

@SovereignAegis: Acutally, most testing shows that GB gives better damage. Yea, you may lose a little while having to move, but it evens out pretty well. It's not a giant dent. And Ricochet actually hits for 400 potency is there's a single target-- does one hit at 100 potency and one at 300. I've had crits hit well over 5k with it. I use GB all the time-- even on the first boss of Fractal, who's an AoE machine. It's all about slide casting. And once proc, it's instant cast. The only time I'm casting is for Hot Shot, Lead Shot or Split Shot. I still think we shouldn't lose auto-attacks as GB should be a damage increase instead of just evening out, but it's not bad when you get used to it.

Hypercharge also double the potency of the turrets attacks.

I've watched my damage go from "meh" to "why am i so weak" to "wow this feels pretty good now" over the course of lv52-60 and then endgame on BRD. I don't know about MCH, but if they're anything like BRD then they probably scale statwise in a way that slowly lets them catch up from what previously felt like just lacking DPS.

All the stats in 3.0 actually support them scaling this way which very slowly softens the AA nerf on the stances (DET now affecting Weaponskills WAY than AA, SS now affecting DoTs), which, considering they have access to the best food/potion/gear in their parses, could explain why Square isn't seeing the issue with MCH/BRD damage right now.

No, you are never going to to outdamage melee anytime soon, but FFS people, it isn't the end of the world. For every person whining and crying about MCH/BRD DPS, there's another static (that doesn't suck) using them with full content clears.


Quit theorycrafting, find a party of players who aren't salty bandwagon princesses, and get your clears. And find someone with a parser so you can just draw your own conclusions

Hmmm, reading everyone's comments is pretty painful. Yes this job does need a slight buff but not nearly as much as everyone is saying. I'm i177 with my Machinist with Ravana weapon (have cleared Ravana Ex like 26 times with my FC). I can tell you from raiding with skilled players that Machinist is not as far behind as everyone says. While I don't beat anyone who plays on the same skill level as me I am generally within 100-150 dps of the jobs and that's just on Ravana Ex. For everyone saying we have no purpose we do... It's just the same as Bards pretty much which I don't mind and was pretty much a no brainer from the start that It would be. I can pretty much bet that a lot of our utility will be put into play in Alexander/Alexander Savage. Mostly I just see people complain about 1,1,1,1,1,1 spamming but that is hardly ever the case unless I'm the luckiest machinist on earth (doubtful) so please stop over-exaggerating guys. I do agree our stance sucks ass right now and hopefully they fix that but yeah, any competent machinist (saw some machinist on a stream pulling 900 on Ravana Extreme fight) can keep up. So why don't you guys actually gear up, learn the job, and do the higher content available. We will get to see how machinist performs in Alexander tomorrow and If they get blown away by other dps than I'm sure we will get a buff (and hopefully they fix gauss barrel).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryaz

..

---

The problem is that the damage increase is incredibly small in ideal situations. I've done it a couple of times and at best the damage difference was around 3% (and I had overall more crits in favor of GB) That means blanks on cooldown. Slide casting won't help with actually dodging most boss AoEs; you're just moving for the sake of moving.

Once you're unable to use blanks on cooldown or missing a GCD from moving, I'd wager thats a damage loss right there. It's busting your ass for little payoff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sevyn

...

---

You're 150 dps behind for really no good reason though. And while I do have the benefit of going into 3.0 with a static from FCoB, it doesn't change the fact that I'm naturally doing less damage than other dps for no reason, and people will give me a hard time for it (because I needed someone within a farn party to vouch them to open up an MCH slot >_>). Not to mention that Ravana parses are the worse thing to look at for raw numbers because of liberation phases and people throwing out (un)merged parses.

MCH isn't low enough that it shouldn't be excluded, but I wouldn't say that people are exaggerating when MCH numbers are lower than it should be relatively.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

...

---

Agreed, right now it does look like we do less for no good reason because none of our utility is really necessary for that fight. If our "utility" is still useless in Alexander normal/savage AND we still do quite a bit less then they better buff our job. Until then though we shouldn't overreact and see what happens.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sevyn

Agreed, right now it does look like we do less for no good reason because none of our utility is really necessary for that fight. If our "utility" is still useless in Alexander normal/savage AND we still do quite a bit less then they better buff our job. Until then though we shouldn't overreact and see what happens.

---

The other end of the spectrum is that MCH's tp/mp regen is arguably worse than bard's when it comes to emergencies, on top of being on the lower end of the damage spectrum compared to a bard. Hypercharge is one of our DPS cooldowns; if we hold it off for emergency regen like battle voice, its a damage loss for every second that we do hold it. On the other hand, machinist is good at keeping people at optimal levels when there's sufficent downtime, but how much that'll help is varied.

In the end, I'd still wish they'd at least address whats wrong with GB and the very minuscule payoff (if there is one) we get out of it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sevyn

(saw some machinist on a stream pulling 900 on Ravana Extreme fight)

---

Pretty sure that was merged. Actual DPS was probably alot lower.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nightz_End

THIS.

I'm not giving up on a class I enjoy.

---

Seconded! The class is fun to me, going to ride out the storm and if/when we get buffed I will know my class better than the FoTM wave that comes back.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

You're 150 dps behind for really no good reason though.

---

If you've got any casters (you do) in your party (or a Ninja, or a WHM who can DPS, or any healer who knows how to dot ), and you give them all access to a 5~10% or 10~20% damage buff for free, is that really a "for nothing" situation?

I realize this is more a bard thing, but i don't get why people always exclude that

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stormgale

Of course this doesn't apply (as in they dont do support DPS) to ninja's trick attack + goad which is arguable more powerful because?

Or summoners res and super virus allowing your healers to DPS more?

Or crit buff of Dragoon and Piercing up?

---

Because DPS-oriented skills for a DPS-oriented class that provide more DPS to the raid at no cost to their own DPS is not a support skill, it's a DPS skill. And it doesn't make them a support class. It makes them a DPS that does DPS. DPS DPS and more DPS.

Bard does not and never has functioned like this, 4/5 of your job skills from lv 30-50 not only added NOTHING to your own DPS, but reduced it while active. It's primary and only effective use is boosting your teammates.

Hell until 3.0, Rain of Death was even a support skill. It was ONE HUNDRED percent useless to use for DPS purposes EVER unless you had someone under the accuracy cap. And if you used this for QN procs, you were AoEing wrong, because that sucked. It was intentionally weaker than QN and WV because of this.

This is a terrible argument, people should stop using it because it sounds silly.

But maybe i'm wrong, hey look the ninja Goad'd me inbetween his barrage of weaponskills with 0 detriment to his DPS at all GUESS HES SUPPORT NOW

Well the person I was replying to was a machinist, so no foe requiem. And 5% honestly is not that much. Considering the up time, that amounts to maybe 1% damage increase. Using bishop to amplify magic damage by 5% is at the cost of rook turret's potency; It'd be better for you to use rook anyway to amplify your own damage if its aligning with your cooldowns (which is only every other time) Not to mention ninja has a 10% one that's applied to both damage types, has a lower cooldown and does more damage than us anyway.

I'll agree that bards are at a better standing than machinist as far as what they can bring to the table is concerned, though they still have their own gameplay problems with how WM affects it (bloodletter resets and straighter shot procs for one)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Griffeth

Seconded! The class is fun to me, going to ride out the storm and if/when we get buffed I will know my class better than the FoTM wave that comes back.

---

I agree. I actually got a boost of confidence today when we tried (and failed) at Bismarck Ex and it actually wasn't my fault. I was solo dps on one snake for two phases and got him down 1/2 way while the others three couldn't even kill one. Of course, that could have just meant they were all sub-par dps, but I'm trying to look on the brighter side.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Edellis

If you've got any casters (you do) in your party (or a Ninja, or a WHM who can DPS, or any healer who knows how to dot ), and you give them all access to a 5~10% or 10~20% damage buff for free, is that really a "for nothing" situation?

I realize this is more a bard thing, but i don't get why people always exclude that

---

Of course this doesn't apply (as in they dont do support DPS) to ninja's trick attack + goad which is arguable more powerful because?

Or summoners res and super virus allowing your healers to DPS more?

Or crit buff of Dragoon and Piercing up?

While you're at it, please add Astrologian to the funeral arrangements.

Necro bump just to point out that MCH are doing just fine in Alexander and everywhere else. As expected.

Cleared A4 last night, watching crit numbers on Clean Shots and Heartbreaks rise up to ridonkulous numbers. Loving Gauss, and nearly full timing it (I still drop it for add phase of A3, mainly for speed). 1-2-1-3-2-3 with buffs weaved in leaves my seat sticky. . .

Bring on Savage.

Let's hope they get a buff ASAP

Seems like a fun class now that bard has had this strange playstyle change.

MCH are doing fine because of the buff to GB. We wouldn't be doing as well if that didn't happen.

Right now, I'm actually wondering how savage will be. I do find that AoEs kill our dos quite a bit. For example, on Bis Ex, I've taken to dropping GB altogether during third phase (and sometimes second) because of all the AoE and tornadoes we have to dodge. Not to mention killing bubbles. I tried it once using GB full time and ended up at 588 dps, which was crap.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryaz

MCH are doing fine because of the buff to GB. We wouldn't be doing as well if that didn't happen.

Right now, I'm actually wondering how savage will be. I do find that AoEs kill our dos quite a bit. For example, on Bis Ex, I've taken to dropping GB altogether during third phase (and sometimes second) because of all the AoE and tornadoes we have to dodge. Not to mention killing bubbles. I tried it once using GB full time and ended up at 588 dps, which was crap.

---

Yeah Bis Ex is another one of those situations where I'm forced to drop Gauss purely to keep up. Overall though, it took some adaptation, some practice, and a lot of getting used to, but Machinist is beginning to feel just as comfortable to me as Bard once did (and still does so far.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Yeah Bis Ex is another one of those situations where I'm forced to drop Gauss purely to keep up. Overall though, it took some adaptation, some practice, and a lot of getting used to, but Machinist is beginning to feel just as comfortable to me as Bard once did (and still does so far.)

---

I agree. I cleared A1-A4 the first day and the tank I played with was impressed at my damage. He was one of those people worried about MCH due to the stigma. We need to work hard to overcome it. Even with my crappy showing on Bismarck, I was still 2nd on the dps chart at least, so I wasn't a complete failure. Lol.

In every single fight that I have been in with my static, in which our BRD changed to MCH, he pulls: 1. The highest/second highest opener; 2. consistently high numbers (1000/1100+). The class was not killed in any way by the buffs/nerfs to their abilities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Yeah Bis Ex is another one of those situations where I'm forced to drop Gauss purely to keep up. Overall though, it took some adaptation, some practice, and a lot of getting used to, but Machinist is beginning to feel just as comfortable to me as Bard once did (and still does so far.)

---

you dont have to drop GB in bismark ex for any reason, there are 2 sweet spot you can stand in bismark ex w/O effect by tornado.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hypie

lessee how far you come with that 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 OH OH OOOOOOOOOH I GOT A PROCC! aw no procc for the third skill.....1-1-1-1-1-1-1....

---

This is not even close to how mch plays out. procs happen PLENTY often enough that its worth playing even without reload or Q reload. Try again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shhikasan

if you literally have nothing up no quick reload no reload you'll run into pressing 1,1,1,1,1,1,1 in rare chance I ended up pressing 1 enough times to see quick reload off cd with no proc. its literally rng and its good and bad but that is what mch basically do when nothing is up so if you did know a mch then you'd know this happens kinda of often and seeing no procs. the only pretender here is you.

---

No the only pretender here is you Shhik. Play the job again and learn something. Btw whoever posted that screenie of the parser, that data is meaningless. MCH is EASILY on par with every other job in the game in terms of what it has to offer a party. whether its dmg or buffs or whatever.

Ah what a great thread. . . Such fond memories.

Like Y2K, or the Mayan Calendar/2012 Doomsday thing.

Stay strong, Machinists <3

MCH can do well it seems, but I still only see BRD in every stream/world 1st progression group out there. Someone said it was due to people just having played it more, but is that really all? I dunno, since we can dps decently the rest does not matter much to me since I will never do savage which is the only place where our "support" might be needed. It is strange though that I have lower dps than other dps in those situations where I have very little utility and they have a lot of it, but w/e, as long as it is fun its what matters to me and as long as those who care to do savage are invited its fine. That is not to say SE have nothing to work on of course, but still decent.

MCH might be for me, then, since I'm not dps-savvy (I struggle as BRD and NIN).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

MCH might be for me, then, since I'm not dps-savvy (I struggle as BRD and NIN).

---

If you struggle with BRD dps... lol, don't even touch MCH.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Humorless

If you struggle with BRD dps... lol, don't even touch MCH.

---

Maybe I shouldn't say struggle, but more like once I need to throw Ballad or Paeon or something, it's tough for me to play catch-up after that lol... Maybe I'll just stick with PLD.