Am I only one who finds autoattack so slow ?

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Originally Posted by Physic

this makes no sense, console games have some of the most button presses per minute as anyone games out there, and most of the people i know who complained about AA were talking about having to press 11111 or the kb buttons repeatedly. I dont think you can blame consoles for this, i think it rests firmly on pc players who are used to being able to eat a sandwich or type out their college thesis while in combat.

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I like to smoke cigarettes whilst fighting, so yes I prefer auto-attack :3

Blade n Soul is tab-targetting and doesn't have autoattack. It can get boring if you're just grinding on a mob, but even that's so much more entertaining than FFXIV's combat ever was. It's proof that active-based combat (with an emphasis on choice and positioning) can be achieved.

I never heard anyone say Blade n Soul needs autoattack, lol.

I guess the point is: combat is still boring.

Improving enmity conditions helped, but be honest, autoattack didn't do anything.

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Originally Posted by User201109011315

Blade n Soul is tab-targetting and doesn't have autoattack. It can get boring if you're just grinding on a mob, but even that's so much more entertaining than FFXIV's combat ever was. It's proof that active-based combat (with an emphasis on choice and positioning) can be achieved.

I never heard anyone say Blade n Soul needs autoattack, lol.

I guess the point is: combat is still boring.

Improving enmity conditions helped, but be honest, autoattack didn't do anything.

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As a cbt and cbt2 tester for B&S, you can tab target, or allow auto target to do the targeting for you.
(The game solely relies on the keyboard and has a very deep combo system)

You cannot click the abilities with your mouse. (The game relies solely on the keyboard... it IS a fighting mmo after all)
You cannot use your mouse to select targets, you select targets by facing them.
Skills are on the following keys(depending on class level/etc): TAB, 1, 2, 3, 4, R, F, Z, X, X, C, V, Left Mouse Button
(they are rebind-able)
The mouse primarily by default controls the camera and your character or just the camera.
Your Primary attack is on both the R key and the Left Mouse Button.

I play a caster but I have heard a lot about dissatisfaction with auto attack. I remember the dev team saying you wouldn't be able to win a battle with just auto attack, and maybe that's because they made it so slow? Originally you could just 1 spam your way through just about anything.. but I didn't particularly have a problem with that. On guildleves at least. I think they should bring back the feel of your character always doing something.. the 10 second delay on your attack needs to disappear.

while the rate of the base attacks and the cool down on secondary basic attacks will always be a hot topic for discussion. There is one thing that i really really dig about auto attack. It will not expend single attack buffs like hawk eye or raging strike when it procs.

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Originally Posted by Zahak

I never run out of actions to do on my 50 lancer and 35 glad so far O_o it probably is kind of slow at low ranks but you get more abilities to kill time later on...

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At higher ranks it's fine. When playing Conjurer (R50) or Thaumaturge (R43) there's always something for me to do.

But I've been trying to rank up Gladiator (currently R28) and it's pretty boring.
I'm probably "playing wrong" and would definitely appreciate advice from better players.

But most of the time I'm waiting for Auto Attack to kick in while watching the cooldown timer on Light Stab to reset. Even using Outmaneuver and Invigorate, it still takes quite a while for me to build up enough TP to have anything else to do other than Light Stab... and often by that time the monster is dispatched by someone else.

One up side is that I have time to play with the camera angle and take screenshots during battle. ^^;

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Originally Posted by Physic

this makes no sense, console games have some of the most button presses per minute as anyone games out there, and most of the people i know who complained about AA were talking about having to press 11111 or the kb buttons repeatedly. I dont think you can blame consoles for this, i think it rests firmly on pc players who are used to being able to eat a sandwich or type out their college thesis while in combat.

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Have you even tried playing this game with a controller? Try going from 1 to 9 on the controller and tell me who could press those buttons faster.

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Originally Posted by EmeraldHill

Have you even tried playing this game with a controller? Try going from 1 to 9 on the controller and tell me who could press those buttons faster.

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sure it's easier to hit left left on your controller to get there.

edit: i started with the mouse and keyboard for the first 4 months before i started using my controller. after using it a short while there was no way i would ever consider going back to my mouse/kb.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

sure it's easier to hit left left on your controller to get there.

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what? you can't be serious.

In what world is hitting left then X or whatever faster than hitting 2

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Originally Posted by Charismatic

what? you can't be serious.

In what world is hitting left then X or whatever faster than hitting 2

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yes, i am quite serious. with the controller my buttons are already at my fingers. using the keyboard there is no telling where your hand may be at any point in time. that is going to relate to it being alot faster to make the moves because your hand is always there.

How many buttons does your gamepad have?

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

yes, i am quite serious. with the controller my buttons are already at my fingers. using the keyboard there is no telling where your hand may be at any point in time. that is going to relate to it being alot faster to make the moves because your hand is always there.

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what is this I don't even

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Originally Posted by Mikita

At higher ranks it's fine. When playing Conjurer (R50) or Thaumaturge (R43) there's always something for me to do.

But I've been trying to rank up Gladiator (currently R28) and it's pretty boring.
I'm probably "playing wrong" and would definitely appreciate advice from better players.

But most of the time I'm waiting for Auto Attack to kick in while watching the cooldown timer on Light Stab to reset. Even using Outmaneuver and Invigorate, it still takes quite a while for me to build up enough TP to have anything else to do other than Light Stab... and often by that time the monster is dispatched by someone else.

One up side is that I have time to play with the camera angle and take screenshots during battle. ^^;

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At 28 you have been able to purchase an additional basic attack for 8 levels (and can purchase another soon). So the first thing you should do is go to the gladiator guild, do the quest they have available for and get that (you got an NPC linkshell alert at 20 alerting you to this btw you must have missed it, but it is glowing in the corner of your screen until you read it, and there is a chat alert).

Anyways what I think you should do during battle as a Gladiator, is start the fight out with invigorate (which all melee should do). Get guard up, and as soon as you get a block hit Phalanx. Then either use a 500 TP ability, or another basic attack to get more TP. Refresh guard, and put up outmaneuver (increased TP from blocks) and use a defensive ability (sentinel, featherfoot for example). At this point you should have plenty of TP use raging strike/ferocity and a 1k TP weapon skill.

This is just an example, you can use other abilities as well (though if you are tanking I would suggest to use Phalanx liberally), but you should be fitting in many more abilities than you seem to be currently. When I played Gladiator from 20 on I was never spending more than a second or two not actually using one ability. In fact gladiator is by far one of the busiest classes in the game in my opinion.

This isn't a personal dig, but all you people complaining about auto attack should really take a look at your class forums for ideas on what you can do rather than "waiting for TP" before coming to the general forums and complaining about the system. I understand it is easier to complain about something, and I certainly don't mind giving people tips on the forum or in game; but the best thing you can do for yourself in an MMO is to either try various combat strategies yourself or read what others are doing (or preferably both of these things). There will never be a good enough tutorial in any MMO to teach you how to play your class as well as doing those things will.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

At 28 you have been able to purchase an additional basic attack for 8 levels (and can purchase another soon). So the first thing you should do is go to the gladiator guild, do the quest they have available for and get that (you got an NPC linkshell alert at 20 alerting you to this btw you must have missed it, but it is glowing in the corner of your screen until you read it, and there is a chat alert).

Anyways what I think you should do during battle as a Gladiator, is start the fight out with invigorate (which all melee should do). Get guard up, and as soon as you get a block hit Phalanx. Then either use a 500 TP ability, or another basic attack to get more TP. Refresh guard, and put up outmaneuver (increased TP from blocks) and use a defensive ability (sentinel, featherfoot for example). At this point you should have plenty of TP use raging strike/ferocity and a 1k TP weapon skill.

This is just an example, you can use other abilities as well (though if you are tanking I would suggest to use Phalanx liberally), but you should be fitting in many more abilities than you seem to be currently. When I played Gladiator from 20 on I was never spending more than a second or two not actually using one ability. In fact gladiator is by far one of the busiest classes in the game in my opinion.

This isn't a personal dig, but all you people complaining about auto attack should really take a look at your class forums for ideas on what you can do rather than "waiting for TP" before coming to the general forums and complaining about the system. I understand it is easier to complain about something, and I certainly don't mind giving people tips on the forum or in game; but the best thing you can do for yourself in an MMO is to either try various combat strategies yourself or read what others are doing (or preferably both of these things). There will never be a good enough tutorial in any MMO to teach you how to play your class as well as doing those things will.

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Murugan,

Thank you for the very helpful post! I'll visit the Gladiator guild (never been there before) to see if I can buy some abilities.

Reading the class forums and being able to learn from more experienced players is definitely helpful.

And I guess that is really the key. Having enough (including cross class abilities) on your bar so that you have something to do besides wait for Auto Attack -- which was really just meant to fill in the holes why players selected other actions.

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

How many buttons does your gamepad have?

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it's set up exactly like a playstation controller. same number of buttons and same button config. it is also exactly like the controllers i have used since the 90's so it is more familiar and time efficient for me. if someone does not play console games it would likely not be as efficient.

i just said that for me it is faster. for someone else it may not be.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

it's set up exactly like a playstation controller. same number of buttons and same button config. it is also exactly like the controllers i have used since the 90's so it is more familiar and time efficient for me. if someone does not play console games it would likely not be as efficient.

i just said that for me it is faster. for someone else it may not be.

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I was just trying to imagine how it'd play on my gamepad (also like a playstation one). I figured since i'd have to cycle my skill selection across the action bar it'd be slower than just being able to press 2 or 5 or suchlike. But that's just me, if it works for you keep doing it ^.^

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

I was just trying to imagine how it'd play on my gamepad (also like a playstation one). I figured since i'd have to cycle my skill selection across the action bar it'd be slower than just being able to press 2 or 5 or suchlike. But that's just me, if it works for you keep doing it ^.^

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no it's not hard to do either method. that's why i stated it was easier for me. i used the keyboard and mouse option originally and moved to controller when my keyboard went out and was waiting on the new one to show up. once i got my controller keys set then it was very efficient.

i got my new keyboard in and tried to go back to it and decided the controller was more convenient to use. the extra click on spells and crafting became less annoying and so did the actual changing of from bar 1 to bar 3.

like i said i am not saying it is for everyone because i know some that have tried the controller and hated the way it worked. i just stated for me it was faster and more efficient.

If you are just standing as a LNC... then your are doing it wrong. One of the best things about this game's battle system that I think differenciates it from WoW and all its clones is the AOE system.

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Originally Posted by MrKupo

If you are just standing as a LNC... then your are doing it wrong. One of the best things about this game's battle system that I think differenciates it from WoW and all its clones is the AOE system.

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If you mean the AOE toggle, SE is planning on removing that in the future. No word on how exactly we'll AOE afterwards.

As for the topic, based on how it's implemented, AA is fine for certain classes (or tanking, any class) but it's a hindrance for others. I honestly feel it's a stepback for SE considering their other games, offline though they may be, are faster and more engaging.

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Originally Posted by Kikosho

If you mean the AOE toggle, SE is planning on removing that in the future. No word on how exactly we'll AOE afterwards.

As for the topic, based on how it's implemented, AA is fine for certain classes (or tanking, any class) but it's a hindrance for others. I honestly feel it's a stepback for SE considering their other games, offline though they may be, are faster and more engaging.

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Give me an example of one of the classes it is worse for because so far we have discussed in detail how Pugilist, Gladiator, Maurader and Lancer can use the new system to do much more than "stand there and gain TP". None of these are slower or less engaging after the patch as a result of auto attack.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

Give me an example of one of the classes it is worse for because so far we have discussed in detail how Pugilist, Gladiator, Maurader and Lancer can use the new system to do much more than "stand there and gain TP". None of these are slower or less engaging after the patch as a result of auto attack.

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just because you refuse to see it does not mean it is not. if it wasn't slower they wouldn't have stated they will be adding in multi hit attacks and haste to speed battle back up. that is a direct response because they do realize the system is slower now.

it can be fixed and likely will be, but that does not change the fact that at this point it is slower.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

just because you refuse to see it does not mean it is not. if it wasn't slower they wouldn't have stated they will be adding in multi hit attacks and haste to speed battle back up. that is a direct response because they do realize the system is slower now.

it can be fixed and likely will be, but that does not change the fact that at this point it is slower.

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That has to do with balance not gameplay. Whether you auto attack every 5 seconds or 3, and whether you use multi hit abilities (which we already have) the pacing is still the same. My issue is merely with people who say the new system amounts to entering battle and waiting for auto attack to fill TP, that is completely misleading and wrong.

The new system simply allows you to use a greater variety of abilities that is all. If you choose not to take advantage of this then the fault is yours, but the battle system is no slower now than it was pre 1.18. Just because you refuse to see that, doesn't make your argument any more valid. There is no restriction at all in place any longer dictating how often you can use abilities (as there was in the previous system), and if timers are causing you to just "sit and wait" then you need to take a closer look at your selection and use of abilities so you are not wasting so much of your time doing that.

It is as simple as that, you are creating a problem for yourself and then blaming the system. Before anyone could mindlessly spam basics to fill this time and constantly be doing something and maybe feel like they were doing something meaningful, but just because to a certain extent that was abstracted doesn't make any combat slower it just opens up greater possibilities to use abilities as the player chooses.

My experiences from combat since I started playing:

Pugilist: Stacking evasion allowed me to constantly keep using moves like Jarring Strike almost constantly, the only time it felt slow was before I gained an evasion technique but at those levels enemies die so quick it doesn't matter. Now whenever I enter combat it's constant button pressing from the get-go, the first attack being light strike and then constantly using evasion counter moves as well as skills to increase my evasion or damage and using second wind when low on health, whilst at the same time building TP to use much stronger attacks, then never more than 3-5 seconds when I'm not pressing a button.

Conjurer: Constant spell casting as well as adding buffs, debuffs, heals and regens to keep myself alive whilst keeping the damage on, the only waiting time is whilst casting spells, that's pretty normal for a spell-casting class in an MMO.

Thaumaturge: Exactly the same as Conjurer, always spell-casting, stopping for even a few seconds could cause death.

Archer: Need I say more? Light-strike constantly then spew off a few TP moves like Penetrating Shot, Shadowbind etc. Always pressing buttons and moving around.

Gladiator: Though I haven't played this class much at all I still found I was using skills often, at first it was slow waiting for TP build from auto-attack but as more skills were gained through levels there were more buttons to press and more reasons to move around, the GLA tank in my LS is constantly throwing out skills at level 30.

Those are the classes I've played with at the moment, sure it'd be nice for some of their basic attacks like Light Strike etc. to have a smaller cooldown but still every class from the list above can have very fast-paced combat. If you're finding it all too easy and you're never using skills try removing some skills from your action bar that aren't part of the class you're playing (e.g/ take cure and protect away from PUG action bar), add more skills that are relevant to your current class, and try it out then. If it still feels slow and boring then try fighting tougher enemies. I've played a lot of different MMO's and trust me, there aren't a lot out there that has RPG style combat faster than FFXIVs.

All you chil'runs and your ADHD, AA is at a good pace, sheesh. The ONLY problem with the auto-attack revamping was that they changed the attacking types for the worst.

Honestly stuff like: Pierce, Full Thrust, Light Thrust (using Lancer as an example) Should have become separate from the skills and they should have used that as something you could change your auto-attack to (instead of a single use ability with a cooldown). Each of the types of attack would have of course changed the auto-attack speed slightly (Full Thrust taking longest intervals between attacks while Light Thrust being the fastest, etc etc).

That's really the only big problem with the auto-attack system. This talk of being too slow is just silly imo (Just take your Ritalin already >.<)

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Originally Posted by Darkstarpoet1

just because you refuse to see it does not mean it is not. if it wasn't slower they wouldn't have stated they will be adding in multi hit attacks and haste to speed battle back up. that is a direct response because they do realize the system is slower now.

it can be fixed and likely will be, but that does not change the fact that at this point it is slower.

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Side Note: They add multi-hit and haste into a game to introduce a new DYNAMIC of a battle (in this case: Speed) not because the system is currently broken, and to think that way is absolutely absurd, if the system was broken then all they would need to do is change the auto-attack algorithms, not introduce new ways to fight monsters.

@OMEGA_HACK: Is your sig in 3D? Looking at it makes my eyesight fuzzy @.@

Its your eyes playing tricks on you :P (Or are they?)

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Originally Posted by Murugan

That has to do with balance not gameplay. Whether you auto attack every 5 seconds or 3, and whether you use multi hit abilities (which we already have) the pacing is still the same. My issue is merely with people who say the new system amounts to entering battle and waiting for auto attack to fill TP, that is completely misleading and wrong.

The new system simply allows you to use a greater variety of abilities that is all. If you choose not to take advantage of this then the fault is yours, but the battle system is no slower now than it was pre 1.18. Just because you refuse to see that, doesn't make your argument any more valid. There is no restriction at all in place any longer dictating how often you can use abilities (as there was in the previous system), and if timers are causing you to just "sit and wait" then you need to take a closer look at your selection and use of abilities so you are not wasting so much of your time doing that.

It is as simple as that, you are creating a problem for yourself and then blaming the system. Before anyone could mindlessly spam basics to fill this time and constantly be doing something and maybe feel like they were doing something meaningful, but just because to a certain extent that was abstracted doesn't make any combat slower it just opens up greater possibilities to use abilities as the player chooses.

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if you think you use a wider variety of abilities now then you must have been absolutely horrible with the old system. this would explain why you say the change is soooooo much better.

if you had issues with no stamina and not being able to use the old system then you caused that problem for yourself and blamed that system. before you could actually use your basic attacks for their actual intended uses and strategically use them.

Actually darkstarpoet one of the problems with the older system was you HAD to wait for your stamina to fill up before you could do anything it wasn't like it was @100% at the start, so you basically start a fight having to wait (ideally if you want to have the maximum potency of attack on a monster). Not to mention the double wait you had to have on spells, this isn't a player problem either; this was a stamina bar functionality problem. For example, Cast Cure, you had to have enough stamina to cast it, then you had to wait the additional time to actually cast it., then you have the added recast timer as well as waiting on the stamina to recharge. In a game where you need to have reliable healing this is a major programming flaw, you double tax the casters in this way. It becomes more than just a player timing issue then.

Don't get me wrong though, its not like I hate the idea of the previous combat system...but it was definitely NOT geared towards a MMORPG.

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

Actually darkstarpoet one of the problems with the older system was you HAD to wait for your stamina to fill up before you could do anything it wasn't like it was @100% at the start, so you basically start a fight having to wait (ideally if you want to have the maximum potency of attack on a monster). Not to mention the double wait you had to have on spells, this isn't a player problem either; this was a stamina bar functionality problem. For example, Cast Cure, you had to have enough stamina to cast it, then you had to wait the additional time to actually cast it., then you have the added recast timer as well as waiting on the stamina to recharge. In a game where you need to have reliable healing this is a major programming flaw, you double tax the casters in this way. It becomes more than just a player timing issue then.

Don't get me wrong though, its not like I hate the idea of the previous combat system...but it was definitely NOT geared towards a MMORPG.

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did it take 60 seconds for the stamina bar to fill up enough for one broadswing? no it took more like 2-3 seconds for a completely empty stamina gauge to refill. that's what i am getting at is just drop some of the cooldowns on the more frequently used skills.

why should you be able to do 6 tp skull sunders in the same amount of time you can do 1 broadswing? broadswing is a basic attack and should not take that long to recharge. i'm not saying the system overall couldn't be adjusted quite easily, but there are certain things that just do not add up properly. the basic attacks in general if they dropped them down to 10 seconds overall for each of them the speed of the fight would dramatically increase. the using mrd and having 30, 30, and 60 for it's 3 basic attacks and having 10 for a tp move is backwards.

i'm not asking for it to be completely taken out just more of a way those of us that enjoyed the old system more control over our abilities.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

did it take 60 seconds for the stamina bar to fill up enough for one broadswing? no it took more like 2-3 seconds for a completely empty stamina gauge to refill. that's what i am getting at is just drop some of the cooldowns on the more frequently used skills.

why should you be able to do 6 tp skull sunders in the same amount of time you can do 1 broadswing? broadswing is a basic attack and should not take that long to recharge. i'm not saying the system overall couldn't be adjusted quite easily, but there are certain things that just do not add up properly. the basic attacks in general if they dropped them down to 10 seconds overall for each of them the speed of the fight would dramatically increase. the using mrd and having 30, 30, and 60 for it's 3 basic attacks and having 10 for a tp move is backwards.

i'm not asking for it to be completely taken out just more of a way those of us that enjoyed the old system more control over our abilities.

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"The previous system wasn't all about spamming basic attacks!!!"

"The new system would be fine if we could just spam basic attacks more!"

Yeah... you and the handful of others who preferred it were probably so good at the incredibly deep and complex previous system, and now all that "creativity" is just wasted. The fact is that there was no way you could use all the abilities you can now in one fight under the previous system due to the limitation of the stamina bar, it was impossible.

So the new system does allow you to use a wider variety of abilities more often. It is an indisputable fact brought to you by the magic of science.

Auto Attack Is Way To Slow!


It also is only beneficial much to melee classes.

it is a little slow imo but im gonna wait and see whats changed in the next patch if anything regarding auto attack

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Originally Posted by Kikosho

If you mean the AOE toggle, SE is planning on removing that in the future. No word on how exactly we'll AOE afterwards.

As for the topic, based on how it's implemented, AA is fine for certain classes (or tanking, any class) but it's a hindrance for others. I honestly feel it's a stepback for SE considering their other games, offline though they may be, are faster and more engaging.

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Actually, i didn't mean the AOE toggle. I'm talking about the numerous set of skills that have AOEs that aren't just a circle around the character, which emphasizes moving around. For example, fighting a Peist head on is generally a bad idea because of the breath attacks. Fighting behind it will get you more damage but you will get hit harder more often because of the tail attacks. So it seems that those who dont want to get hit hard stay to the sides.

The idea of cone AOEs, enemies in the line of fire, and incapitation are all concepts that are new or seldom been used before.

Incapitation has been seen in games like Monster Hunter and Vindictus, but here it requires a little bit more knowledge of skills, classes, mobs, and location.

And that peist on is only one example of how AOE makes the battling more exciting.
The reason i called LNC out is because not only is that my main class, AOE is the most important aspect of playing LNC well.

PS: I realize this has less to do with autoattack, but to say the battling is boring doesnt make much sense to me. That's not to say that autoattack is too slow or too fast. If they were to speed up autoattack, that would mean they would have to speed up the pace of battling overall. It's less time to think and react when this game is that sort of game.

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Originally Posted by EmeraldHill

Have you even tried playing this game with a controller? Try going from 1 to 9 on the controller and tell me who could press those buttons faster.

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i do, and on kb its generaly about setti9ng your important skills clopse to each other, and the ones that are used together closer to each other. But believe it or not, t was never about hoe fast you pressed, animation delay was at least 1 second and stamina for most actions was at least 2 or 3 so you never have to press like a crap load.

i usually play with controller, and for me having to press commands is generally a lot more comfortable with controller, although kb does put more stuff at a fast disposal, for me it is less comfortable and not as good for longer gaming sessions. Sometimes i do use both, pad for directional and kb for 1-10

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Originally Posted by Murugan

"The previous system wasn't all about spamming basic attacks!!!"

"The new system would be fine if we could just spam basic attacks more!"

Yeah... you and the handful of others who preferred it were probably so good at the incredibly deep and complex previous system, and now all that "creativity" is just wasted. The fact is that there was no way you could use all the abilities you can now in one fight under the previous system due to the limitation of the stamina bar, it was impossible.

So the new system does allow you to use a wider variety of abilities more often. It is an indisputable fact brought to you by the magic of science.

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I know you are a defender, you like the game and feel the need to protect it regardless. But really i dont see how you can say as a pugilist main that you have more control/strategy/options now. While removing stamina does allow you to use more non tp/cooldown skills in succession, there arent that many of those that are useful for a melee, who is actually the class that has to deal with AA most. Sure, maybe discerning eye is now almost free (other than the using any skill delay) but that additional option does not make up for my ability to have higher evasion at all times, or the ability to do less actions, and keep tp high with pummel, or the ability to do a massive amount of actions with flurry. Nor the relationship between when you can do flurry and when you cant.

the problem with your science is it discounts cool downs, the main skills you want to use that bring synergy to your class usually are usually just a few skills and for most melee the cool down wasnt large. Truth is im better off using in class skills for damage, or effect due to accuracy and damage checks, or due to increased cool downs. only a few utility skills make it through to real usefullness. In the current system you actually go looking for crappy placeholder skills to fill gaps.

for pugilist the biggest stamina saves that are better under this system for me, discerning eye taunt and blood bath. all the rest of my skills were pretty balanced for use. Oh i also need more tp moves to fill the time void, but before i wouldnt have needed them, because proper use of basic attacks on pugilist was generally better than cross class tp moves most times.


For gladiator, i think this patch gave them way more options, because they had a lot of high cost skills, for the others it lowered it.

Its not that i havent played and dont understand the new system, i actually got it just by looking at the patch notes, and when i played i saw it ingame. My main problem is its just not as deep of a system, Its not as entertaining and there is very little synergy.

before skills worked together for different builds;
light strike heavy strike pummel concussive blow jarring haymaker all worked well together. they provide a synergy in use that is better when you use all of them together. in this case all of these allow you to maintain a higher evasion and defense rate while assuring you almost always have tp to use reactionary skills, and are doing less actions so you allways are ready to counter.
heavy strike flurry raging strike bloodbath victimize (other tp dump weaponskills) a focus on all out attack, flurry can build huge tp, and you focus is on building big tp than charging up a huge attack that can help keep you alive.

see, the basic attack scheme we had before was a huge part of each style, in fact without the basic attacks each style doesnt work as well, and combine s well together. The high cost of victimize is primarily balanced by pugs ability to get a lot of tp fast, and the ability to stack a lot of buffs on one skill, without that, it would almost always be better to use 2 or 3 lesser weaponskills back to back.

Im not going to say you cant press as many buttons as before, The focus is now on throwing a lot of differnt skills on your bar, even if they dont actually help you that much. and simply pressing all of them as soon as the cooldowns are up. Whereas before you picked and used skills that had a synergy, and used them mostly when the time was right, and most beneficial to you, Now you basically watch cooldowns on everything and your goal is to press them everytime the CD is up. It just makes it boring, you arent making tactical descions any more, i can write a macro that can do everything for me and probably get just as much success even versus high level tough monsters.

before for easy stuff, a lot of people got by on spaming basic attacks, but that wasnt enough to beat monsters of a high tier 10 levels higher than you. Now i notice, its actually a lot harder to fight monsters in that range, because cures are nerfed, and my defense and evasion are lower, as well as the fact that i no longer have as much control over when to burst and when not to. But for monsters below a certain threshold, its faster, because your rushdown as far as tp/skills is faster. So what it feels like to me, is easy fights got easier, and harder fights became impossible. the entire system went from a more stategic or tactical battle, to a TP/skill rushdown rotation focus.

and for me thats more boring.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

My experiences from combat since I started playing:

Pugilist: Stacking evasion allowed me to constantly keep using moves like Jarring Strike almost constantly, the only time it felt slow was before I gained an evasion technique but at those levels enemies die so quick it doesn't matter. Now whenever I enter combat it's constant button pressing from the get-go, the first attack being light strike and then constantly using evasion counter moves as well as skills to increase my evasion or damage and using second wind when low on health, whilst at the same time building TP to use much stronger attacks, then never more than 3-5 seconds when I'm not pressing a button.

Conjurer: Constant spell casting as well as adding buffs, debuffs, heals and regens to keep myself alive whilst keeping the damage on, the only waiting time is whilst casting spells, that's pretty normal for a spell-casting class in an MMO.

Thaumaturge: Exactly the same as Conjurer, always spell-casting, stopping for even a few seconds could cause death.

Archer: Need I say more? Light-strike constantly then spew off a few TP moves like Penetrating Shot, Shadowbind etc. Always pressing buttons and moving around.

Gladiator: Though I haven't played this class much at all I still found I was using skills often, at first it was slow waiting for TP build from auto-attack but as more skills were gained through levels there were more buttons to press and more reasons to move around, the GLA tank in my LS is constantly throwing out skills at level 30.

Those are the classes I've played with at the moment, sure it'd be nice for some of their basic attacks like Light Strike etc. to have a smaller cooldown but still every class from the list above can have very fast-paced combat. If you're finding it all too easy and you're never using skills try removing some skills from your action bar that aren't part of the class you're playing (e.g/ take cure and protect away from PUG action bar), add more skills that are relevant to your current class, and try it out then. If it still feels slow and boring then try fighting tougher enemies. I've played a lot of different MMO's and trust me, there aren't a lot out there that has RPG style combat faster than FFXIVs.

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You didnt play before so ill tell you pugilist was even better at that style before, being able to put light strike buff up whenever they wanted as long as they balanced their stamina, also counter tp ws had low to almost no cost stamina wise which actually made them more valuable than they are now, because they were low tp, and low stamina. Now if you got a good tp ramp going, you can basically ignore them.

Archer con and thaum arent effected by AA, and probably got some benefit from stamina removal, but since cast times generally trumped stamina, they play fairly similar to before.

the real effect is on melee classes

heavy axe is heavy, hence, well you get my point.

it feels slow to me, even spamming other skills in between it still feels painful.

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Originally Posted by Physic

I know you are a defender, you like the game and feel the need to protect it regardless. But really i dont see how you can say as a pugilist main that you have more control/strategy/options now. While removing stamina does allow you to use more non tp/cooldown skills in succession, there arent that many of those that are useful for a melee, who is actually the class that has to deal with AA most. Sure, maybe discerning eye is now almost free (other than the using any skill delay) but that additional option does not make up for my ability to have higher evasion at all times, or the ability to do less actions, and keep tp high with pummel, or the ability to do a massive amount of actions with flurry. Nor the relationship between when you can do flurry and when you cant.

the problem with your science is it discounts cool downs, the main skills you want to use that bring synergy to your class usually are usually just a few skills and for most melee the cool down wasnt large. Truth is im better off using in class skills for damage, or effect due to accuracy and damage checks, or due to increased cool downs. only a few utility skills make it through to real usefullness. In the current system you actually go looking for crappy placeholder skills to fill gaps.

for pugilist the biggest stamina saves that are better under this system for me, discerning eye taunt and blood bath. all the rest of my skills were pretty balanced for use. Oh i also need more tp moves to fill the time void, but before i wouldnt have needed them, because proper use of basic attacks on pugilist was generally better than cross class tp moves most times.


For gladiator, i think this patch gave them way more options, because they had a lot of high cost skills, for the others it lowered it.

Its not that i havent played and dont understand the new system, i actually got it just by looking at the patch notes, and when i played i saw it ingame. My main problem is its just not as deep of a system, Its not as entertaining and there is very little synergy.

before skills worked together for different builds;
light strike heavy strike pummel concussive blow jarring haymaker all worked well together. they provide a synergy in use that is better when you use all of them together. in this case all of these allow you to maintain a higher evasion and defense rate while assuring you almost always have tp to use reactionary skills, and are doing less actions so you allways are ready to counter.
heavy strike flurry raging strike bloodbath victimize (other tp dump weaponskills) a focus on all out attack, flurry can build huge tp, and you focus is on building big tp than charging up a huge attack that can help keep you alive.

see, the basic attack scheme we had before was a huge part of each style, in fact without the basic attacks each style doesnt work as well, and combine s well together. The high cost of victimize is primarily balanced by pugs ability to get a lot of tp fast, and the ability to stack a lot of buffs on one skill, without that, it would almost always be better to use 2 or 3 lesser weaponskills back to back.

Im not going to say you cant press as many buttons as before, The focus is now on throwing a lot of differnt skills on your bar, even if they dont actually help you that much. and simply pressing all of them as soon as the cooldowns are up. Whereas before you picked and used skills that had a synergy, and used them mostly when the time was right, and most beneficial to you, Now you basically watch cooldowns on everything and your goal is to press them everytime the CD is up. It just makes it boring, you arent making tactical descions any more, i can write a macro that can do everything for me and probably get just as much success even versus high level tough monsters.

before for easy stuff, a lot of people got by on spaming basic attacks, but that wasnt enough to beat monsters of a high tier 10 levels higher than you. Now i notice, its actually a lot harder to fight monsters in that range, because cures are nerfed, and my defense and evasion are lower, as well as the fact that i no longer have as much control over when to burst and when not to. But for monsters below a certain threshold, its faster, because your rushdown as far as tp/skills is faster. So what it feels like to me, is easy fights got easier, and harder fights became impossible. the entire system went from a more stategic or tactical battle, to a TP/skill rushdown rotation focus.

and for me thats more boring.

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The bolded part is why you probably have so much issues. Also discerning eye is useless, it is pretty much broken at the moment. Try using other abilities or go to the pugilist forum where there is plenty of information on exactly what skills you should be using and when. I'm sorry you are having so much trouble with the new system, but instead of writing a novel about how much you loved flurry spam take 2 minutes and learn how to play the class under the new system. You'll see what I am talking about.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Murugan

The bolded part is why you probably have so much issues. Also discerning eye is useless, it is pretty much broken at the moment. Try using other abilities or go to the pugilist forum where there is plenty of information on exactly what skills you should be using and when. I'm sorry you are having so much trouble with the new system, but instead of writing a novel about how much you loved flurry spam take 2 minutes and learn how to play the class under the new system. You'll see what I am talking about.

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you dont get it, i know how to play the job. I am not new to battle. i understand how it works, it is lame.

the whole style is dedicated to tp building and tp dumping, its the same now for every melee class.

get tp, dump tp
thats it.
use skill as soon as cooldown is up, or wait for tp.

invogorate is now a required skill, by your own words, why? because the entire melee game is get tp and dump it, and invogorate no longer has any cost or choice associated with it.

it is boring

Its sad that what your implying is that under the current system, there is only one loadout of skills,

"there is plenty of information on exactly what skills you should be using and when"

this statement is the fail of a battle system. If there is only one path which goes even to the point of exactly when to use skills, why not just get a machine to do it.

rotation cool down non dynamic i could write a macro to play this game for me battle design is crap.

what choices are you making in battle?
how do you alter your play to adapt to specific enemies?
what happens in a battle that you have to react to?
where is the strategy in your fighting on a personal level?

every FF had elements of this in every battle, except when you out leveled your opponent, you chose when to defend, when to attack, when to increase defense, when to focus on attack when to heal. You had sequences of events that set up specific abilities (most limit breaks) you had differing enemies that would require you to use your same skills differently and focus on that.

where does this happen in this system now? people hate on ff13, but even with an almost completely automated attack system, you still had to answer all of the questions, going even further for some enemies.

This battle system is almost completely without depth for melee now. It wasnt that deep before, but now its nothing. we can now all be robots and be you murugan. fail