Please disable changing Cleric Stance during combat for make healer focus on healing.

I love how those pushing the 'Healers should DD' line are forgetting that a Healer's job isn't just keeping the green bar full. When I heal (not that I'm very good at it) I'm doing more than just topping off HP. I'm keeping Stoneskin up on the Tank, I'm removing debuffs as I see them come up, putting Regen up in those fleeting moments of calm during fights. All of which is cast from global cooldown. I don't like to DD cause it can too often cause my other spells to have to wait, and when I see someone at half health or less I REALLY want to heal them. You know, cause I'm the Healer. DDing is something that should be done by those who are comfortable with it, confident in being able to do that dance. As I said earlier, it's not something I will ever ask a Healer to do, because I've been there. I will leave it to them to manage their playstyle, it's their choice. Not mine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Donjo

First of all, having no Cleric Stance does not completely remove a healer's ability to DPS.

---

Yes it does. You have a base intelligence of around 220 with say a SCH. Full i130 you have 660 MND.

Ruin with cleric = 300+ damage.
Ruin without cleric = 100 damage.

And this will only get worse with the expansion, as healing gear will scale with MND, not INT...so the difference will even get more astronomical.

ATM a good SCH can sit at 300-320 DPS with cleric. You turn that into 100 DPS and yes, you completely remove the ability for them to do anything that is not laughable. Wanna throw a Bio II for 50 extra damage every tick? Sure go ahead, but might as well not do anything or ask your fairy to slap the enemies, I bet she could pull greater numbers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Donjo

First of all, having no Cleric Stance does not completely remove a healer's ability to DPS. It only makes the spells do less damage. I'm getting the feeling here that far too many people are equating the disabling of Cleric Stance with the complete inability to deal damage at all.

---

Damage is so poor without Cleric Stance that it amounts to nearly the same thing in practice even if not literally.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by desufin

Okay so let me get this clear. How's that stunned Bahamut Prime or slept Twintania or Pacified Nael working out for you? Oh wait that's right, they are immune. This not an opinion, it's a freaking fact.

---

I never said they weren't immune, and you never said anything about any of those boss fights. I have no idea what you're talking about. You might wanna grab that sandwich about now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wizarus

Can I get a link to confirm Healer dps being taken into account for Heavensword? I'm all for Healers contributing to the groups DPS, but I'm ABSOLUTELY against it being mandatory.

---

It will be accounted for in Savage Alexander raids (and possibly raids in general) and not much else, from what I've heard/read. So only content where you are expected to perform to the absolutely best anyways is it being considered. Could be wrong but that's what I remembered hearing...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atlaworks

I never said they weren't immune, and you never said anything about any of those boss fights. I have no idea what you're talking about. You might wanna grab that sandwich about now.

---

I mentioned BOSS FIGHTS several times either directly or by pointing out things where mitigation MATTERS. Stunning a couple of mobs in a daily expert is not going to change Holy's status of NOT being a mitigation tool.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by desufin

I mentioned BOSS FIGHTS several times either directly or by pointing out things where mitigation MATTERS. Stunning a couple of mobs in a daily expert is not going to change Holy's status of NOT being a mitigation tool.

---

And I pointed out that "worth" is a mutable thing, that is equal to your opinion on a subject and thus invalidated in discussion of facts. You're making a logical fallacy. It's still a mitigation tool because it mitigates damage- it doesn't matter what it mitigates damage on. That's like saying "Raid isn't bug spray, it only works on ants!"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by desufin

Okay so let me get this clear. How's that stunned Bahamut Prime or slept Twintania or Pacified Nael working out for you? Oh wait that's right, they are immune. This not an opinion, it's a freaking fact.

---

Being able to efficiently complete storyline quests, 4-man dungeons and 24-man raids makes it worth it to quite a few people in the player-base.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by desufin

I mentioned BOSS FIGHTS several times either directly or by pointing out things where mitigation MATTERS. Stunning a couple of mobs in a daily expert is not going to change Holy's status of NOT being a mitigation tool.

---

Dealing more damage makes the enemy dead faster, thus they deal no damage. The best mitigation is killing the enemy. If we could 1-shot enemies before they could hit us, that would be the ultimate mitigation.

Omg no. Just no.

I've never enjoyed playing a healer in games. Wanna know why I love it here? Stance dancing. Take away my ability to stance dance and I throw away my job stone and all gear with it.

Holy absolutely is a damage mitigation tool. Maybe not on bosses, but it sure is on normal enemies in dungeons (and even trash during Coil). You can stun these up to three times which equates to them being unable to provide damage during that time to your tank/dps friends. This in and of itself is called mitigation.

Mitigation:

the act of mitigating, or lessening the force or intensity of something unpleasant, as wrath, pain, grief, or extreme circumstances

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by desufin

I mentioned BOSS FIGHTS several times either directly or by pointing out things where mitigation MATTERS. Stunning a couple of mobs in a daily expert is not going to change Holy's status of NOT being a mitigation tool.

---

Saying that Holy is not a mitigation tool in general is wrong. Saying that holy is not a mitigation tool for a boss or any target that might be immune is correct. Stunning mobs in a daily expert IS mitigation since you can dps more and the tank takes less damage. So how about we all agree that IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS, Holy IS a mitigation tool.

So uhm.... how does determining if Holy is mitigation or not mitigation effect Cleric Stance, again? o_Oa >.>;
A little off topic, but... /shrug

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saseal

So uhm.... how does determining if Holy is mitigation or not mitigation effect Cleric Stance, again? o_Oa >.>;
A little off topic, but... /shrug

---

If there was no cleric stance, Holy would be less mitigation since the mobs wouldn't die as fast. But I suppose the stun would still be nice.

Yeah, sorry, I kind of went off into a tangent there myself! My bad. Let me try to put this back on rails again.

Cleric Stance should be toggleable in combat. I can see why people would think otherwise, with many healers having tunnel vision and DPSing too much, causing members to die, but taking away a class's options is a bad idea in general if it can be avoided- if it couldn't be toggled in combat, it'd also hamper a healer's ability to heal themselves in solo content. I fear the request at hand is painting with too broad of a stroke- and that while there are certainly problems in my viewpoint regarding healer DPS and while I believe they do too much of it, nerfing cleric stance so heavily would be overkill. I think it might be a better choice to simply lower the potencies of some of their spells, or possibly lower the scaling with INT cleric stance offers by a small potion rather than removing it entirely.

Take away stance dance, I will no longer play a healer, it is the only reason I do it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nadirah

You pointed out what's called "normal spell progression.". That's not " new DPs spells", that's "new ranks to existing spells to account for more levels."

---

To quote, I said

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ghishlain

And they're increasing our DPS potential

---

Regardless of how they do it, they're still trying to increase a healer's DPS in what they feel is balanced for the expansion. If they didn't care about healer DPS, they wouldn't of done this to begin with.

Just to reiterate, I don't like the idea of disabling Cleric's Stance and I feel the Dev's agree based on how the response was wored (admittedly, up to translator interpretation). Providing the options for higher level play to encourage high level raiding and player skill is good. Taking this away is not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Magusrex

Take away stance dance, I will no longer play a healer, it is the only reason I do it.

---

Agreed, and I have a feeling a LOT of healers would abandon the role if they nerf/remove Cleric Stance. Good luck playing the game if 50% (just a random guess) of your healers quit healing.

Its a tool used properly its great used wrong and it stinks.

It is not the hammer's fault someone hit you in the head with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Agreed, and I have a feeling a LOT of healers would abandon the role if they nerf/remove Cleric Stance. Good luck playing the game if 50% (just a random guess) of your healers quit healing.

---

Speak for yourself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aeyis

Speak for yourself.

---

Oh, I was speaking for the large pool of people that agree. Sorry if you don't, but my opinion is my opinion, and no amount of attitude from people like you will change that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Agreed, and I have a feeling a LOT of healers would abandon the role if they nerf/remove Cleric Stance. Good luck playing the game if 50% (just a random guess) of your healers quit healing.

---

The sky will not fall if you don't get to DPS. It will not end the world, nor the people who play the class. If you are so aggressive about DPSing while you heal, and it's more important than healing, I encourage you to roll a DPS class instead- I feel you may enjoy it more, as the focus on DPS is much greater. People will still play healers- because most people who play healers do so to heal, I would like to think.

If the number of healers is too low, I imagine they could implement some achievements for it a la the tank ones, where healing 500 expert dungeons gets you a gilded unicorn or a faerie palanquin or some such thing.

Haven't read the thread just the first post. But this might me the dumbest suggestion I have ever seen on a game forum, which is saying a lot. I like finding the free 5 second holes in hard fights where I can drop a few dots and back to healing. And every little bit of dps help. But if you don't like to, or don't want to, then simply don't do it. No sense to ruin it for the rest of us and remove gameplay options.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atlaworks

The sky will not fall if you don't get to DPS. It will not end the world, nor the people who play the class. If you are so aggressive about DPSing while you heal, and it's more important than healing, I encourage you to roll a DPS class instead- I feel you may enjoy it more, as the focus on DPS is much greater. People will still play healers- because most people who play healers do so to heal, I would like to think.

If the number of healers is too low, I imagine they could implement some achievements for it a la the tank ones, where healing 500 expert dungeons gets you a gilded unicorn or a faerie palanquin or some such thing.

---

I don't need advice from you in any way shape or form (especially considering you don't even have a healer job leveled). I have healed both jobs for a year and a half, as well as having 5 DPS jobs that I play regularly.

If I wanted to stand around half the time doing nothing but throwing out a Cure every minute, I would be playing a different game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atlaworks

The sky will not fall if you don't get to DPS. It will not end the world, nor the people who play the class. If you are so aggressive about DPSing while you heal, and it's more important than healing, I encourage you to roll a DPS class instead- I feel you may enjoy it more, as the focus on DPS is much greater. People will still play healers- because most people who play healers do so to heal, I would like to think.

---

Just to comment about this particular point - I'm a healer to play a healer. I (and I imagine many of the people Bianca/NothernLadMSP is directing their comment towards) are players who wish to use the entire healer toolkit to it's maximum potential and adapt to any situation of a party dynamic - good or bad. There is a satisfaction in the way S-E has designed healers that isn't offered when playing a DPS class.

This is why I play a healer. While I will be sad if they DO remove Cleric's Stance it would not stop me from playing healer.

I do hope they never remove Cleric's Stance though. Not without a massive game design overhaul.

I love healers who DPS just as much as the next guy, but why the hell do some people think it's mandatory?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

I don't need advice from you in any way shape or form (especially considering you don't even have a healer job leveled). I have healed both jobs for a year and a half, as well as having 5 DPS jobs that I play regularly.

If I wanted to stand around half the time doing nothing but throwing out a Cure every minute, I would be playing a different game.

---

You already mentioned you were unable to play a healer in any game. Im not surprised, you dont sound like you enjoy healing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aeyis

You already mentioned you were unable to play a healer in any game. Im not surprised, you dont sound like you enjoy healing.

---

He has a point though. Strictly healing in this game is a complete and dumb snorefest outside very specific stuff like T13 or Ifrit EX (back when it mattered and there was no echo). You can heal 99% of the content of this game just fine by simply spamming Physick/Cure and the occasional Medica/Succor. There's a reason why healers want to participate more especially in content where they are less stressed healing (4man for instance). You take this away and healing 4 man content becomes a torture for any player that wants to do more than pressing 2 buttons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aeyis

You already mentioned you were unable to play a healer in any game. Im not surprised, you dont sound like you enjoy healing.

---

LOL please learn to read. Go find the quote where I said I was unable to play a healer in any game. You won't be able to because I never said it.

This thread is a perfect example of why these official forums are considered to be a joke by the playerbase at large.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kemonologist

snip

---

So if you read the quote you gave carefully, they actually say "so you should just think of healer DPS as a last way to get your overall party's DPS up to where it needs to be." So yes, the devs understand that may people may wish to do this. Removing cleric stance is not needed. Dont blame people who are unable to stance dance on the move itself. The issue is with players, not the ability. We dont need yet another of these threads about removing cleric stance due to people not being able to use it properly.

Did you (OP) even read the thing you're referring to in your OP? Yes, Yoshi is saying they're designing the encounters without accounting in for healer DPS, as at a world first -level they are expecting people to push for clears below the "designated overall ilvl needed for the clear", something made possible by healer DPS among other things.

Designing the encounters' DPS checks so that they also account in for healer DPS would be a harsh decision to make because it would remove that skill element of the game (among many other things) that rewards the elite players for their tight playing and thus them clearing an encounter whilst undergeared.

As Yoshi says, you don't need to DPS, but it's a bonus-kind of thing that good players can do. I think this is the ideal stance the devs can take on this issue.

Fail thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atlaworks

The sky will not fall if you don't get to DPS. It will not end the world, nor the people who play the class. If you are so aggressive about DPSing while you heal, and it's more important than healing, I encourage you to roll a DPS class instead- I feel you may enjoy it more, as the focus on DPS is much greater. People will still play healers- because most people who play healers do so to heal, I would like to think.

If the number of healers is too low, I imagine they could implement some achievements for it a la the tank ones, where healing 500 expert dungeons gets you a gilded unicorn or a faerie palanquin or some such thing.

---

The problem is that SE has designed healers with very powerful toolkits, abilities that far exceed the amount of healing that we typically need in most scenarios outside of raids. I have the option of pressing Cure for the duration of a pull, or popping some CD's, Divine Seal, Presence of Mind, and start laying down the hurt WHILE maintaining an efficient healing presence. Will I need Benediction in the next 5 minutes? Sincerely doubt it, unless a NIN is dancing in front of ten mobs eating AoE's. Use it on the tank to have more DPS uptime. And since your main healer utilities are on such a low timer (60 seconds for the almighty Divine Seal, 2.5 minutes on the high end for the admittedly more lackluster Presence of Mind) there is no reason not to use these abilities and use them frequently.

DPS healers have arisen because these tools are great, and they provide us with a lot of breathing room, especially when seen in conjunction with a tank's mitigative abilities. What this leaves you with are healers that are very good, using all of the abilities in their toolkit, and then standing around with nothing to do, waiting for incoming damage to be greater than the HP that their HoT's are providing, not a thrilling waiting game to be sure. Tanks sought to tax us a little more, with speed runs and mass pulls. Our abilities were more than a match. Fending off 9+ mobs, many healers are STILL able to pitch in DPS, and consistently keep the party alive.

These tactics have been fostered by patch after patch of trash and bosses that typically don't tax a healer in a way that keeps them busy for the duration of the fight outside of Coil content. The reason this is such a hot button issue when it is brought up among healers is that it has become a play style, very much ingrained in how some of us play. Much in the same way that a DRG will retaliate if you remark on them only using Heavy Thrust ("I'll play how I want!!!"), healers have a way of playing that they enjoy, whether it be the extremely cautious turtle healer, or the aggressive (but vigilant!) DPS healer, or somewhere in between. Until your average level of play in light party content and all things in between actually reach the level where it taxes a healer to the best of their ability (which will never happen, raids are where this is at, and even then, healer DPS is still relevant), you will have healers that are better at their job than the content requires, thus, DPS healers. Taking away Cleric Stance will only leave these healers with less to do, and since buffs like Stoneskin are MP intensive, they may as well start /dancing until the next mechanic rolls around.

TLDR: Good healers use cooldowns to heal less often. Bored healers fill in this time with DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

LOL please learn to read. Go find the quote where I said I was unable to play a healer in any game. You won't be able to because I never said it.

---

Unable ment not enjoying it. There is no need to feel like you need to defend your ability as a healer.

Cardinal mage rule: ABC (Always Be Casting)

If it's not a heal, make it a DPS spell. Don't just sit there waiting for damage to happen so you can finally start casting something.

Healers that just heal and do it well, are average - and that's fine if that's all you want to be. Healers that recognize when they can contribute DPS and when they need to focus on healing are the good ones, the exceptional ones, the ones you want in your party more than the former.

I never complain when a healer doesn't DPS, but I do acknowledge when a healer does and those usually get my commendation/respect.

So, to the OP, no we should definitely keep CS the way it is so that healers have the option to DPS if they choose to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seryl199

Snip!

---

This is a good post. I like your post. And I agree with a lot of it- I understand the purpose of Cleric Stance and believe it should be kept in, as I outlined at the top of page 11. The ability to do other things and DPS in between heals is pretty great, and while I think they should in general be doing less damage with it, the ability to toss out aeros and stones when they're not healing is a good idea. I simply believe this mentality of "If I can't DPS then I won't heal" is silly, because it's not what they signed up for in the first place; and if it is, some priorities may need to be checked. Loss of DPS abilities for a healing class is not the end of the world- it's not a good thing either, but it won't break the class because it's not the main job of the class anyway.

It'd just make it a lot less interesting.

And for some of us, taking away the fun and extra challenge of doing both successfully would make the job boring. Sorry, but don't punish me because of people who lack skill.

Stuff is situational. I will keep DPSing and stance dancing as a WHM when I see fit. Thank you. See you again! :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Cardinal mage rule: ABC (Always Be Casting)

If it's not a heal, make it a DPS spell. Don't just sit there waiting for damage to happen so you can finally start casting something.

Healers that just heal and do it well, are average - and that's fine if that's all you want to be. Healers that recognize when they can contribute DPS and when they need to focus on healing are the good ones, the exceptional ones, the ones you want in your party more than the former.

---

Regenerating MP is a valid reason to not cast. Now this does depend on content a bit... faceroll stuff, yes, never going to have MP issues. T13 though... it can still be a bit intense, especially with rezzing going on.

If I'm not permitted to DPS when healing isn't needed, I'll stop healing. (Mana preservation in certain situations aside, of course).

Seriously, outside of raid Complete Heal rotations, you still saw the top Clerics swinging hammers around and tossing out Yaulp as a self dps buff back in EQ. If a healer doesn't want to dps on content that doesn't require it of them? Fine. But quit trying to punish those of us that do/are able.

This constant back and forth bickering just needs to end. Really now, you're listed as an Arcanist, which means if you're healing it's as a Scholar. How bloody boring do you find it standing around doing nothing on many fights when you could easily be popping up Aldo and tossing out some dots, or at least a Shadow Flare when you don't need Sacred Soil up? Do you enjoy sleeping through content?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sousoulsu

This thread is a perfect example of why these official forums are considered to be a joke by the playerbase at large.

---

Yeah it's reaaaaally stupid