Why punish players who just want to play DoL DoH?

That would be fun... exit the Warrior of Light, here comes the Farmer of Light !
Gaining access to Ishgard by crafting the best carpet for the Archbishop's bedroom ! While the DoW/DoM had to fight gods, dragons, the Empire, save the world every week-end, twice on Tuesday, had to attend banquets, kill people, travel across Eorzea and beyond, take Brayflox's cheese, had to put up with Alphinaud & Minfilia on a daily basis, use the Duty Finder... all of that, without being paid of course.

There's no punishment here. There is a reason why we can't access Ishgard from day one and suddenly we are "allowed" in the Holy city. We almost died for them, some of us trying to DF the Steps before the nerf, lost their sanity in the process.

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Originally Posted by Yuri_Hyuga

It's pretty sad that players who wish to play like this will be locked out form Ishgard due to MSQ gating.

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The true question is, why would someone...

Honestly, the content mentioned seems to sum up in one word, ... work xD

Up until now I haven´t even considered people out there completely ignoring all the the adventurous content.

You just have to get up to ilvl90 and go through easy story content. Might take a while if you haven't done much before, but it's a game about adventurers, not crafters/gatherers... The fact that SE have made crafting/gathering so interesting(not to me though), doesn't change that fact...

It's like complaining about having to do combat in an action game, when you only want to explore things... Bad example I know, but couldn't come up with anything better. The point still applies though.

You had to do stuff with your DoW/DoM to do some of the crafting content too, so it shouldn't really surprise you that much.

And to the people who says that players will leave because of the gating of 2.55 story... that's not going to happen. The amount of players that play like the OP(or rather, not playing), is like 0.00001% of the community... and most of the other players wants to experience the story too. If you're not done when the expansion comes, I'm sure the duties in the story will be nerfed even more to make it quick and easy for you.

While I personally would not care if they offered you a way to do the story as your choice of DoH/L, this is obviously not something they want to do as they have stated. And even thinking it would be logical to be able to rework the entire storyline (And yes, they WANT you to experience the story) or even add a new quest-line equal to the MSQ in less than 30 days is just... wrong. Instead of trying to change what is already basically set in stone, maybe try to appeal for them to make it possible for the NEXT expansion instead. As of now it is just a case of suck it up and do it or don't and fall behind, and if playing the market is really your idea of fun then I doubt you want to be behind the initial wave.

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Originally Posted by Adire

What makes people who want to do DoH/DoL stuff rather than combat less important than anyone else?

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The story created around fighting against dark forces and saving the world, as already said so many times.
It's not that you, as a person, are less important than anyone else. Your 'crafting/gathering character' is less important than any 'combat character' for the Holy See and the Dragonsong War conflict, just the same way any 'combat character' who has not actively aided on the Steps of Faith fighting against the Dravanian Horde is less important than a 'combat character' who did so. Again, from a story point of view. Something this game is heavily focused on from start, like it or not.

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Originally Posted by Umo

The story created around fighting against dark forces and saving the world, as already said so many times.
It's not that you, as a person, are less important than anyone else. Your 'crafting/gathering character' is less important than any 'combat character' for the Holy See and the Dragonsong War conflict, just the same way any 'combat character' who has not actively aided on the Steps of Faith fighting against the Dravanian Horde is less important than a 'combat character' who did so. Again, from a story point of view. Something this game is heavily focused on from start, like it or not.

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exactly this

Holy See: "Have you helped us defending Ishgard against the dragons?"
[yes] : "Welcome to Ishgard, friend"
[no] : "Go away, stranger. No entry pass for you"

I find it amazing that this is viewed as punishment. I realize and hate that the word entitlement gets thrown around in mmos too much, but to think that SE should devote that many resources and change the game that much for such an obvious minority...

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Originally Posted by Foomerang

I dont care about the combat in this game. I dont care about the storyline. I just want to experience the new DoL DoH content, race my chocobos, tend my garden and be part of the community. I dont think thats too much to ask in an mmorpg. Im happy with the game that way and gladly pay my sub for that content available to me. Locking the expansion behind 100+ required combat centric quests after already reaching 50 with a combat class is disheartening.

I wish they would've said from the beginning at 2.1 that these quests were required to unlock the expansion.

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This is a FF game first, MMO second. That means the story trumps all, and the primary means to advance is through combat; literally, every other game in the franchise has been like that. Your request would be akin to me asking the developers of the Harvest Moon to allow me to grow my farm by fighting monster and using the proceeds to pay for my farm, which doesn't make sense, because that is not the core design of the game. Locking the expansion behind the completion of the 2.1 story line is nothing new; in FFXI, you have to complete the original story to do the RoZ quest lines.

SE is not punishing you, you just want a different game.

Reminds me of the first year of ultima online. My friend never had a combat skill but would go around mining and had enough taming for a wolf pet. No one would kill him since a lot of the server bought from him.

Some people just like being a normal crAfter.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

If Square were to start catering to people who just want to craft/gather and do nothing else, they'd have to sacrifice other content in the game to make it happen, so I rather have them not do that.

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What would they really have to sacrifice?
They could remove all the locks on content that is locked behind the main quest and they would solve it.

Personally I think the main quest is rubbish and I would love if they made it optional.

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Originally Posted by HakuroDK

I am torn on this topic.

On the one hand, this game shouldn't have expansion content gated because it severely inhibits people whose sole focus in the game isn't combat.

On the other hand, like many people have said, combat is the primary focus of the game.

I am a crafter myself. But I do the combat content as well.

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I've got the same thoughts as this guy. I'm a combat heavy player and I craft casually but I can see the other side of the argument. It'd be nice if crafters could just up and go to ishgard—I don't really see the problem with it.

It is saddening that I am not at all surprised to see some of the responses to this person's comments. So many of you people just don't -get it- and jump to name calling (Farmville, really?) and belittling. Just because they enjoy a style of gameplay that is different from your own makes them no less a valid viewpoint.

I absolutely, 100% agree with them by the way and I can't stand crafting in this game. Why? Because it's a second-class citizen. And that's why this request will never see any traction. Yoshi's flat out said that crafting isn't important and will never account to anything compared to combat. Personally, I think this is wrong and horrible for a game's economy (yes, this is a thing and is necessary). But then, it isn't surprising seeing as a lot of vocal people are so incensed at the idea of their "hard earned" dungeon drop gear being even -met- (not surpassed, -met-) by crafted equipment.

So, OP, while I totally agree with you and would love to see it happen it never will because when you're a crafter in FFXIV your job is to a) make people pretty, and b) get people caught up to the current patch of gear grind.

(NB: Yes, I am aware of the i110 crafted situation. I am also aware that Yoshi has come on record to say that the power level of that gear was not intended and that it will never happen again if he can help it.)

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Originally Posted by Kiara1

What would they really have to sacrifice?
They could remove all the locks on content that is locked behind the main quest and they would solve it.

Personally I think the main quest is rubbish and I would love if they made it optional.

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Apparently the dev team is a bit small and they already plan stuff out almost years in advance (like how the Au Ra were conceptualized by 2.1), so they have to plan things out carefully while also adhering to the lore; stuff like the lore is the reason why Square refuses to lift the GC restrictions for Frontlines and is also the reason why 3.0 is blocked off until you clear all of 2.0. If they start to try and make things to get crafters to be pushed ahead, then the resources have to be diverted from somewhere because everyone's already working on something beforehand.

Let's say they do allow crafters to get to 3.0 without completing the main story. Could people who are still struggling with the Steps of Faith decide to just skip the fight by going through the crafting route and then switching back to a battle class after? Would the story still hold up if people decide to skip said trial as their personal cheat sheet? If crafting is easier than doing the main story quest, then Square is going to block it off or at least make it very difficult to do so since they want players to go through the proper channels. It's not as simple as people seem to think.

I get that people don't like the story and they don't have to, but considering that the majority of the game revolves around said story, avoiding it through other means is only going to frustrate you in the long run since the main focus of the game is going to be about the story and the combat it brings. That is why people are saying that others should play a different game that would cater to their likes; as much as people want to, FF14 can't please everybody and trying to appeal to everybody makes a boring, bland game that nobody likes.

"We are are war with the dragons and our defenses are currently being crushed... but I see that you have a nice Lucis tool to cut some flowers. Here, the gates to Ishgard are open for you."

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Originally Posted by Caraway

(NB: Yes, I am aware of the i110 crafted situation. I am always aware that Yoshi has come on record to say that the power level of that gear was not intended and that it will never happen again if he can help it.)

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I don't remember ever seeing this. There were some pieces of 110 crafted gear that were slightly higher damage than 130 when pentamelded, at a cost to HP (dangerous for progression).

The 110 crafted accessories let you sacrifice a little damage for a lot of HP and were OP vs the 130 accessories, but came out a full minor patch after the 130 gear/FCoB.

While it may be nice if they could have another way it won't ever happen I'm actually in favor of the lock out since it will limit rmt activity in the new zones some may say it won't stop them but by locking the expansion behind the story they have set up a road block that will impede their progress and hopefully get them out of this game actually I hope they add new crystals and shards to the new zones that will be needed for level 50-60 crafting that can only be gathered in those zones so to add another road block for them.

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Originally Posted by Caraway

(NB: Yes, I am aware of the i110 crafted situation. I am also aware that Yoshi has come on record to say that the power level of that gear was not intended and that it will never happen again if he can help it.)

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tbh, I'm very happy about this as I think it will cut out a large portion of why people buy gil. If they don't need to spend 30 mil for bis, a lot who would buy gil, won't. Means less spam in my book.

What I don't understand is, why can't we get access to the expansion areas and jobs and anything else that doesn't relate to the main story...I mean you should be able to roam around anywhere but just not be able to do the main story and its related quests. Think about when you first started 1.0 or even ARR, you were able to go anywhere and do anything, why shouldn't it be possible with HW.

After reading the OP I find it a bit hard to think of an alternative means for DoH/DoL to progress into the content without having a DoW/DoM first progressed through it. Levelling via Levequests required players to be already of a sufficient level to do the area's leves, and generally players were issued a battle leve to unlock the area's leves.

Yes, the game is combat centric, show me a final fantasy title that isn't, it may seem daunting to go through the story to unlock the ability to do the new stuff, but it's easier to do it and get it done, then you have no real reason to touch it again.

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Originally Posted by Dererk

While it may be nice if they could have another way it won't ever happen I'm actually in favor of the lock out since it will limit rmt activity in the new zones some may say it won't stop them but by locking the expansion behind the story they have set up a road block that will impede their progress and hopefully get them out of this game actually I hope they add new crystals and shards to the new zones that will be needed for level 50-60 crafting that can only be gathered in those zones so to add another road block for them.

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I disagree, its an excuse that was used for the whole freindlist crap and look what has happened with that, we can't share items across our accounts, but, we get daily spams of friends request from the rmt...so lockouts like this that punish legitimate players do not work.

I must admit, reading some of the comments to this, it really shows how little of an imagination the community has in terms of potential workarounds for this.

I mean seriously, think about it. Crafters and gatherers could be critical to Ishgard.

"The Dragon Killers were destroyed! We need parts to repair thesm ASAP!" *crafter provides these parts, crafted similarly to Ixali Beast Tribe quests* "The Dragon Killers are working again! Thank you, Warrior of Light!"

"We need these materials to rebuild the Steps after the battle before the next wave of dragons attack!" *gatherer goes out and gathers the necessary materials* "These materials have proven invaluable to the reconstruction of the steps! Thank you!"

I mean jfc, how in the hell did Cid set up his workshop in Ishgard from Mor Dhona without participating in Steps of Faith?

One-track minds, the lot of you.

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Originally Posted by Akuryu

Sandbox RPGs allow you carve out a niche for yourself, and role play your character the way you want them to be. You can be a mighty warrior, or a humble farmer, or anywhere inbetween. You need to find one of those games, because this is not a Sandbox RPG, nor does it advertise itself as one. This is a theme-park MMO, and you're along for the ride. It's not going to cater to every style of play.

Honestly if you don't care about story, you can skip all the cutscenes, and probably be completely caught up in a couple of days.

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Actually as a theme park MMO it should cater to all types of players and game play...theme parks have something for everyone that visits...go visit disney world or universal studios and tell me you didn't have fun doing something as an adult.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

I don't remember ever seeing this. There were some pieces of 110 crafted gear that were slightly higher damage than 130 when pentamelded, at a cost to HP (dangerous for progression).

The 110 crafted accessories let you sacrifice a little damage for a lot of HP and were OP vs the 130 accessories, but came out a full minor patch after the 130 gear/FCoB.

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The fact that there are still some i110 items that are BiS is testament to the fact that they were not thought out properly when designed. So I get why they don't want to build items like that again. Unfortunately I can't find the interview where Yoshi mentioned that round of gear specifically, but there is a thread here on the forums where he talks about crafting gear playing second fiddle to dungeon gear (the What's The Point of Crafting thread).

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

tbh, I'm very happy about this as I think it will cut out a large portion of why people buy gil. If they don't need to spend 30 mil for bis, a lot who would buy gil, won't. Means less spam in my book.

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I think the whole 'RMT' concern portion is a bit silly myself. It's basically the MMO version of "Think of the children" in politics.

There are ways to involve crafters with end-game equipment that would completely shut out RMT.

I guess I am just used to games where the best of the best end-game items required the work of all spheres of play to make. You needed to dungeon run to get materials, and you needed high level crafters to put it together.

I think something like that would make a great addition to this games' issues with drops at end-game. Viable horizontal progression paths are a good thing, especially if it helps shore up itemization or drop luck (lack thereof).

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Originally Posted by Goodberry

Folks, what do you find so annoying in the OP's request?

What would be so obnoxious for you if other people were able to play the game just by crafting? Would it impair your game?

It seems too many people find their most fun in keeping other people from having fun. :P

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Sadly I don't think any of the naysayers will get it...to them its all about fight, fight, fight save the world with our big and shinies. (they remind me of the age old adversaries new money vs old money). An mmorpg is a fully engaged and complete experience where you can do anything in the games evolving world, everything takes time and you don't have to do everything if you don't want but still get to enjoy the game. Everything now is go to point A click, go to point B click = YOU WIN!!!
Shame how we've lost our way.

Hey folks, like I said, I'm not trying to take anything away from your experience as an adventurer. I'm not asking for special content in addition to what the devs have already given. I'd just like to be able to experience the new DoL DoH content by doing exactly that. I've been a full time botanist as soon as I was allowed to. I was looking forward to being able to do that in the expansion without having to take my GLD through a hundred more quests and get outfitted in ilvl90 gear.

In other mmos, a new expansion simply required a level to be reached and then a few introductory quests to the new area and story. If a new player bought the game it would be hundreds of quests before they were allowed access. That is very different from just getting a character to 50.

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Originally Posted by Allistar

I disagree, its an excuse that was used for the whole freindlist crap and look what has happened with that, we can't share items across our accounts, but, we get daily spams of friends request from the rmt...so lockouts like this that punish legitimate players do not work.

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blocking the new areas from them helps combat them its like the great wall of china yes its a defense is it perfect no but still a defense.

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Originally Posted by Allistar

Sadly I don't think any of the naysayers will get it...to them its all about fight, fight, fight save the world with our big and shinies. (they remind me of the age old adversaries new money vs old money). An mmorpg is a fully engaged and complete experience where you can do anything in the games evolving world, everything takes time and you don't have to do everything if you don't want but still get to enjoy the game. Everything now is go to point A click, go to point B click = YOU WIN!!!
Shame how we've lost our way.

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I think the "naysayers" are actually trying to explain why things are the way they are and how some things couldn't work while you're the one who assumes anyone that disagrees just blindly likes to kill things.

Also, don't think an MMO lets you "do whatever you want". The devs are going to let you play the game the way they want you to

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Originally Posted by Foomerang

Hey folks, like I said, I'm not trying to take anything away from your experience as an adventurer. I'm not asking for special content in addition to what the devs have already given. I'd just like to be able to experience the new DoL DoH content by doing exactly that. I've been a full time botanist as soon as I was allowed to. I was looking forward to being able to do that in the expansion without having to take my GLD through a hundred more quests and get outfitted in ilvl90 gear.

In other mmos, a new expansion simply required a level to be reached and then a few introductory quests to the new area and story. If a new player bought the game it would be hundreds of quests before they were allowed access. That is very different from just getting a character to 50.

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I understand this I do but for them to add this now would just delay the expansion more it was supposed to be out this month original but was pushed back to fine tune it you had way over a month to get that stuff done they told us it would need main story finished instead of complaining about this get the story finished yes most of the quests are boring but you had over a month notice that they would be needed for this.

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Originally Posted by Foomerang

Hey folks, like I said, I'm not trying to take anything away from your experience as an adventurer. I'm not asking for special content in addition to what the devs have already given. I'd just like to be able to experience the new DoL DoH content by doing exactly that. I've been a full time botanist as soon as I was allowed to. I was looking forward to being able to do that in the expansion without having to take my GLD through a hundred more quests and get outfitted in ilvl90 gear.

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Well, none of that is being taken away from you, but... do you really expect to get much out of the expansion when it's central focus are Disciples of War? You can still craft, still gather and still do whatever it is you do. You just can't do it in Ishgard. And what would be the point anyway? There's no information so far on whether or not there will be new gathering points in Ishgard, and the crafting aspect will be the same no matter where you are in the world.

Crafting already relies on combat classes. There are materials you can only obtain through combat, such as Potash or Animal Fats, and yet rarer materials traded for soldiery and poetics tomes. You can buy them, but it still relies on SOMEONE getting the materials on your behalf. Furthermore, most of the materia you use for crafters and gatherers is earned through combat, like as not. It's far quicker to slap on some crafting gear and kill enemies for a bit than to sit through hundreds of individual (high level) crafts at great expense just for a handful of materia which may not even be what you need.

No one is saying you can't play the game the way you want to, but at least see it for what it is. Combat is always going to be forefront of any decisions made. Crafting has been neglected ever since ARR launched.

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Originally Posted by Dererk

I understand this I do but for them to add this now would just delay the expansion more it was supposed to be out this month original but was pushed back to fine tune it you had way over a month to get that stuff done they told us it would need main story finished instead of complaining about this get the story finished yes most of the quests are boring but you had over a month notice that they would be needed for this.

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They should've had this as a requirement to buy the expansion tbh. I am trudging through it. Looking forward to when I can get back to doing what I enjoy. At least until I get forced through more hoops heh.

I don't see how finishing the story in order to unlock new content comes as a surprise to people, seeing as the story and combat segments therein have acted as gates for content since the very start of 2.0.

I understand that if people want to just craft or gather it'd be a pain to then have to do a bunch of quests and fights, but you can't really say you never saw this coming?

Look at it this way, while you may want to just craft and gather having a battle class progressed in leveling and story can help you gather some materials from enemies or whatever that you might not have access to from only crafting and gathering. Also, perhaps someday you might possibly come across a system that they add that you may like which is battle related. Just some things to think about, especially the "extension" of gathering through "farming" enemies.

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Originally Posted by Caraway

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While I agree with including crafters in end game gear, it is hardly a "think of the children argument" as you put it. You may think the issues is smaller than I do, being on balmung, where I understand there is much less spam than I see on Jenova. I get almost a constant flow of spam and rmt friend requests.

I would prefer any end game crafting for go the MB and be about getting an untradeable drop and requesting a craft, or doing it yourself, but thats another thread entirely.

But I don't believe for a second that they should dedicate the resources to make some kind of a separate storyline for people who "only craft" as that number cant, realistically, be more than one in every few thousand players. I feel that there is not value on a business or overall enjoyment of the player base for the work it would take. Maybe if there was a much bigger portion of the player base who did it, but before this thread, I had never heard of anyone who played solely to craft. Maybe people who even did a majority of crafting, but no one who wanted to ignore every other aspect of the game for it.

I hope they'll make crafting less important in the future. It's not important now but it still can make shitload of money, money they don't deserve because all they do is sitting in the town and play stupid minigame called crafting.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

I hope they'll make crafting less important in the future. It's not important now but it still can make shitload of money, money they don't deserve because all they do is sitting in the town and play stupid minigame called crafting.

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I detect jealousy. Besides, crafting isn't the only easy way to make gil, you know.

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Originally Posted by Bamadeus

I don't see how finishing the story in order to unlock new content comes as a surprise to people, seeing as the story and combat segments therein have acted as gates for content since the very start of 2.0.

I understand that if people want to just craft or gather it'd be a pain to then have to do a bunch of quests and fights, but you can't really say you never saw this coming?

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It's because many of us have played other mmos that are successful and understand the formula. Personally I think the gating is going to be one of the biggest mistakes SE could make if they want a really popular and large mmo. An expansion is always an opportunity to get new players interested in the game, but the problem is that they will be interested in ISHGARD, not the thousand or so quests that came before it. Gating content like this is going to make that new player quit before even getting through the first month because they won't be able to play with their friends. I'm not sure what SE's thought process is behind this, but I sure hope that they make it very clear on the packaging that you will have had to complete all earlier content in addition to being level capped before you can play Heavensward or they are going to have a lot of unhappy customers that otherwise might have become forever players.

I don't really know of any other game that does this.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

I detect jealousy. Besides, crafting isn't the only easy way to make gil, you know.

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Your jealousy detector is working, but your sarcasm one seems to be broken.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizy

I wasn't here then, what happened?

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A weaver could stun Hellfire, that's what happened.

Edit: reference video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4v-GMge_6sc

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Originally Posted by Vinta

A weaver could stun Hellfire, that's what happened.

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"Dear Gods! Xande has opened a portal to the World of Darkness! Someone quickly gather the Warriors of... wait, where did it go?"

"Sewed the portal shut with a crit-quality cross stitch. Those bosses aren't getting anywhere until the seam starts to wear down."

"..."

Yeah I could see potential problems

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Originally Posted by Allistar

What I don't understand is, why can't we get access to the expansion areas and jobs and anything else that doesn't relate to the main story...I mean you should be able to roam around anywhere but just not be able to do the main story and its related quests. Think about when you first started 1.0 or even ARR, you were able to go anywhere and do anything, why shouldn't it be possible with HW.

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The glacier Snowcloak is blocking the way to western highlands and only in the main story part around Iceheart tunnels were found through the glacier.