[dev 1032] What's wrong with job/subjob again?

So i will just reiterate that the current system is good-to-go

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kimahri

OH! I almost forgot! Your complaint over Marauder having Intimidation? Well I remember so well that Warrior of XI had an ability that Paladin did not..........Provoke! I'm going to let you marinate on that for a second. Let those juices soak into whatever that is up there in that cavity you call a head.

---

Oh! I almost forgot! This is not FFXI. Now say it with me: This is not FFXI. This is not FFXI. This is not FFXI.

I don't care what worked for Warrior and Paladin in FFXI, things don't work the same way in FFXIV. Our enmity system is entirely different and is undergoing changes so that it will work a bit better. Regardless, take a Marauder and a Pugilist both using only their class abilities and traits and I guarantee that Marauder will be able to hold hate better. Between Intimidate, Defender, Disorient (x3), Warmonger, Full Swing and Storm's Path there's no way the Pugilists few abilities (Taunt, Accomplice and Jarring Strike which is a conditional evade ability) could stand up to that in terms of enmity generation.

I will also like to reiterate that this is not FFXI... :).
I have Intimidate (MRD Trait) and Accomplice (Pug skill) Equipped on my gladiator. Holds hate like a champion.

I think that is a good idea. It allows you become stronger and to use more skills like some of the version of FF I have been playing FF since they first came out way back when

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcell

There you go making assumptions and putting words in my mouth again. I don't want to make my own "ultimate cookie-cutter class", in fact the way I play Pug is distinctly different from how other people even in my LS play it. Regardless, I don't want something like Intimidate to be Marauder specific, thus making it THAT much harder for Glad or Pug to tank. I think anyone who is tanking should have Intimidate and anyone who's not tanking should have Out of Sight. That's one of the things put into the game to help keep aggro shifted a certain way. If you made Intimidate specific to Marauder you'd have people saying that Glad and Pug aren't viable tanks because they can't keep hate as well. If you made Out of Sight specific to Archer you'd have people saying that Lancer, Pug and Marauder aren't viable DD classes because they've lost that key enmity mitigation trait.

I don't want to see job/subjob because it is too restrictive and creates too many cookie-cutter community standards where anything else is shunned. I didn't play XI to 75 in anything but I know other people can back me up there in that if you weren't cookie-cutter class X/Y you were shunned and couldn't get a group. Any originality was stripped from the game after a point. If you were something you HAD to sub a specific job or else you sucked, that's taking it too far.

Also you clearly have no understanding of the term "cookie-cutter" if you think that "cutting my own abilities out of other classes" defines it. It means that everyone is the same, you have standards that you cannot deviate from. So far in XIV there are few cookie-cutter standards. Want a tank? You've got Glad, Pug and Marauder. Want a DD class? You've got Lancer, Pug, Marauder and Archer. Even the mages can take over each other's roles with a degree of success though some are better than others.

And how about you stop attacking me? I have not once said a single insulting word towards you and it really doesn't help your argument. An argument based on attacking another and not the issue isn't really a sound argument now is it?

---

Are you guys serious? Every class had several viable subjobs for many different situations. Nobody would want a SAM/SMN because that's garbage and makes no sense, but SAM/WAR SAM/THF SAM/RNG SAM/NIN SAM/DRG and SAM/DNC were all great and each gave Samurai a completely different playstyle. Would you want a CON who insisted on tanking or have him cure/nuke instead?

If you're gonna talk about something, at least have the knowledge to back it up. I can tell you the armory system is bad because I actually took the time to play FFXIV for a few months.

Also @ Reika: drop the "go back to FFXI" nonsense. People aren't asking for FFXI-2 and if you think that you're an idiot. Ignoring everything in FFXI was a gigantic mistake by the dev team that even Yoshida admits to. I actually DID start playing FFXI again, but that doesn't mean I want the $80 I spent on a cute journal and some stupid certificate to go to waste. I actually want the "game" that came with the journal to be good some day. The armory system, market wards, all those terrible ideas are just holding its progress back.

True there are some combinations that don't work but with job/subjob there's little to no grey area for what's "good" or "bad". With our current system you've got 3 tank possibilities, 4 DD possibilities and the casters can both go with Support and Nuking though I'd say enfeeblement would be best suited to THM. The freedom comes in how you want to build those roles and with the current system there are lots of possibilities. With Job/Subjob there are only a handful of viable combinations and everything else is shunned.

I believe I'm quite qualified to talk about the Armoury system, as I've got almost every combat class to 25 and Pugilist almost to 50.

Also true ignoring everything from FFXI was a big mistake but there are some things that are best left in the past. I believe job/subjob is one of them. This game can do much better than that and it can do better than our current system. I'm for moving forward, not back.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcell

True there are some combinations that don't work but with job/subjob there's little to no grey area for what's "good" or "bad". With our current system you've got 3 tank possibilities, 4 DD possibilities and the casters can both go with Support and Nuking though I'd say enfeeblement would be best suited to THM. The freedom comes in how you want to build those roles and with the current system there are lots of possibilities. With Job/Subjob there are only a handful of viable combinations and everything else is shunned.

I believe I'm quite qualified to talk about the Armoury system, as I've got almost every combat class to 25 and Pugilist almost to 50.

Also true ignoring everything from FFXI was a big mistake but there are some things that are best left in the past. I believe job/subjob is one of them. This game can do much better than that and it can do better than our current system. I'm for moving forward, not back.

---

Well said. +1

Well the purpose of a subjob was to either boost your main job's strength, compensate for its weakness, or use its strengths to change its role in a group. It wasn't meant to be used to do everything you want in one package but even though a damage dealing class class was always gonna be a DD, you could switch to THF sub and focus on enmity control/burst damage, switch to DNC sub to focus on TP fueled healing, or switch to WAR sub for pure damage and emergency provokes. Every MMO has roles that need to be filled. It's a group effort. Of course, if you had a job combination that doesn't help the group, why would they want you?

FFXIV is no different in that sense. The only difference is that instead of having a collection of -UNIQUE- jobs that can each fill several roles in a group by using different subjobs, you have a few DDs whose only difference is the weapon they use (save for a handful of class specific abilities), mages with no defined roles, and one standard tank. You aren't gonna see tanking archers, main healing gladiators, or melee DD mages (they can't even do that if they wanted to because everyone is bound to using one weapon). You would shun any one of those just like an FFXI player would shun a BLM/MNK.

Honestly, the armory system is made worse because of how unimaginative the classes are. Not to mention the awful battle system and physical levels contradicting the nature of the armory system. None of it works well together. People complain about the subjob system not giving them the freedom to do as they like but that isn't true, it's the community who doesn't let you do this and with good reason. This isn't a single player game where one character can deal physical damage, nuke, and heal at the same time and you being able to mix and match a bunch of random skills into one package will make you as unique as a monk subbing black mage in XI while wearing a set of CHR gear. It'll also make you just as useless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Esoteric

Sure it's not unique in the MMO world, but it still provided cross-job skills with balance.
Anyone else want the FFXI system back?

---

It's not FFXI. Move on and do something new.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Demacia

mages with no defined roles

---

Now that's not even true. Currently there are 3 roles mages can fill: Support, Damage and Enfeeblement. Support obviously entailing healing and buffs. Damage obviously entailing nuking/simply dealing damage. Enfeeblement is the one thing I'd say would probably best left to THM as opposed to the other two which can kind of go either way. With DoTs, status effects and debuff spells the enfeeblement role is surprisingly deep. You can use up to four of the Absorb skills on yourself and then use Initiation to transfer those to the tank. You have access to a variety of status effect skills as well. The DoTs can honestly make a world of difference in the fights that last long enough to make use of them, like NMs.

So basically the complaints seem to be;
Everyone is going to equip the same abilities on every job, every time.

And, the solution being argued for is;
We need to make sure that everyone can only equip the same abilities on the same job, every time.

You offer a solution that impacts everyone's ability to enjoy this game (don't forget DoL and DoH who also make use of this system), but the complaint is based on the faulty assumption that everyone plays the same way.

I have decided I don't want to level PUG and ARC on this character. I don't care if the current popular builds require abilities from either of those jobs. I don't want to level them. I might not be as awesome as the next guy, but I am playing the way I want and I'm having fun with it. It is indeed possible to put restrictions on yourself without hindering your ability to enjoy the game, but only if your enjoyment isn't tied up with being top rank on your server or being able to clobber stuff as fast as the next guy.

And if it is tied up in that stuff, then go look at the top ranked guy and level up everything the same way he has. Nothing stopping you from doing that either.

But instead it seems some of you care so much about how everyone else is playing that you'd insist on bringing back the pigeon-hole system FFXI has, where every job has to fit neatly in its slot to get anything done, and some jobs are left out entirely.

Where's the fun in that?

And that's the beauty of the system. While I would recommend you level Pug for Second Wind and Taunt/Accomplice, it's not entirely necessary. No one's going to boot you from a party for not having them, mainly because there's no way for them to know you're not using them off the bat. With Job/Subjob in place, you have to level whatever the standard sub is for your main or you're not going to get a spot in groups.

The game is fine, the system is fine, everything is fine so why the hell is ffxiv is free to play? Bring old system back already.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reika

Well said. +1

---

This one is not directed to Reika. This one is directed to the moderator's of this forum. If you're going to edit my own posts because it didn't relate to the topic, then can you please remove these two worded posts that say absolutely nothing to pursue this topic? Come on.....

Quote:

---

Are you guys serious? Every class had several viable subjobs for many different situations. Nobody would want a SAM/SMN because that's garbage and makes no sense, but SAM/WAR SAM/THF SAM/RNG SAM/NIN SAM/DRG and SAM/DNC were all great and each gave Samurai a completely different playstyle. Would you want a CON who insisted on tanking or have him cure/nuke instead?

---

What Demecia is trying to say here is that there were plenty of different sub jobs to choose from to complete certain obstacles. For solo work on Samurai(Or Monk) I would use SAM/DNC(Or MNK/DNC). With their rate of TP gain it was the best possible sub job to allow me to farm at my maximum performance with little to no downtime on resting. Every job could've been used as a sub job on every class, but it wasn't because it did little to nothing to improve your results and hence became useless.

You can not say that the community shunned people for choosing war/smn because they didn't. It was the people who used common sense over which jobs were considered proper. The only time you seen people sub the wrong job was when they were either new to the game and didn't know of the best possible combinations, or made an error when selecting a sub or forgot to change subs. I remember going to sky as sam/blm because I changed to /blm to warp from Bastok to Aht Urhgan. Arcell if you ever played long enough to be in endgame, you never once seen anyone trying to get into a linkshell as a rng/smn. Using this as a counter-argument in your rebutal is like me trying to talk about WoW or Rift. I haven't played them long enough to comment on it, so I don't.

Quote:

---

Well the purpose of a subjob was to either boost your main job's strength, compensate for its weakness, or use its strengths to change its role in a group. It wasn't meant to be used to do everything you want in one package but even though a damage dealing class class was always gonna be a DD, you could switch to THF sub and focus on enmity control/burst damage, switch to DNC sub to focus on TP fueled healing, or switch to WAR sub for pure damage and emergency provokes. Every MMO has roles that need to be filled. It's a group effort. Of course, if you had a job combination that doesn't help the group, why would they want you?

FFXIV is no different in that sense. The only difference is that instead of having a collection of -UNIQUE- jobs that can each fill several roles in a group by using different subjobs, you have a few DDs whose only difference is the weapon they use (save for a handful of class specific abilities), mages with no defined roles, and one standard tank. You aren't gonna see tanking archers, main healing gladiators, or melee DD mages (they can't even do that if they wanted to because everyone is bound to using one weapon). You would shun any one of those just like an FFXI player would shun a BLM/MNK.

---

This also is a great example by Demecia regarding his opinion.

Quote:

---

Currently there are 3 roles mages can fill: Support, Damage and Enfeeblement.

---

This one is from Arcell. Now I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong. You're right, but right now there is little to few differences to which one of these roles either of the two can perform adamantly. There might be a slight difference, but as far as performing roles? Why have two different classes if they can both perform them with only slight consequences? This should be simple. Everything in life has a role to do. A Pikeman in a mid-evil army couldn't fire an arrow while halting the onslaught of the calvary riders.

Each one of the three examples you said; Support, Damage, Enfeeblement. They're all different roles. That's why you seen three different jobs in XI.

Support: White Mage
Damage: Black Mage
Enfeeblement: Red Mage

I said before that I didn't want the sub job system to be implemented back into the game, but with the way you completely disregard anything that supports class restrictions to make a character feel more unique.......I'm going to go ahead and say bring back the sub job feature. If you will not admit that abilities could be revisions to stop the overpowering of it's role from others, then yes I want a FFXI-2. This isn't a single-player experience. I'm/We're not asking for a complete overhaul of everything. Just some things to be re-evaluated.

You say you want Intimidation to be accessed by your Pugilist? Sub Job system. You want that Archer ability that I'm not going to scroll up to find? Sub Job system. If you don't want the sub job system, then let SE do their job so they can establish a bigger crowd base to play the game together. Everyone is going to make some sacrifices, so don't feel like you're the only one getting the shaft. I'm sure they're going to implement something I'd rather not care for.

P.S. By the way, Reika. I'm currently one of the many who not only play FFXIV right now, but still FFXI. How about you be quiet about telling people what to do when you've absolutely nothing to talk about? You going to tell me to go back to FF7 because I didn't like the storyline of FF8? Too bad, so sad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chione

But instead it seems some of you care so much about how everyone else is playing that you'd insist on bringing back the pigeon-hole system FFXI has, where every job has to fit neatly in its slot to get anything done, and some jobs are left out entirely.

---

How about you name me one job that was completely left out? You've no idea what you're talking about. Every job in FFXI had a role to accomplish. That role made it an important part of the gameplay. Like I said; An army is made up of different categories of infantry with different roles to accomplish. They all don't do every role.

The game being free to play currently has nothing to do with the addition of job/subjob. The game was released way too early and the team behind it wasn't doing a good enough job, it's as simple as that. The game deserves better than job/subjob and to be honest it does deserve better than the current system. I believe Yoshida and the new team can create something far better than both and that's what the game needs.

Edit: Also I never said I'm completely against restrictions and disregard everything relating to them. I've said countless times that I'm actually in favor of some additional restrictions but nothing as harsh as job/subjob.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chione

So basically the complaints seem to be;
Everyone is going to equip the same abilities on every job, every time.

And, the solution being argued for is;
We need to make sure that everyone can only equip the same abilities on the same job, every time.

You offer a solution that impacts everyone's ability to enjoy this game (don't forget DoL and DoH who also make use of this system), but the complaint is based on the faulty assumption that everyone plays the same way.

I have decided I don't want to level PUG and ARC on this character. I don't care if the current popular builds require abilities from either of those jobs. I don't want to level them. I might not be as awesome as the next guy, but I am playing the way I want and I'm having fun with it. It is indeed possible to put restrictions on yourself without hindering your ability to enjoy the game, but only if your enjoyment isn't tied up with being top rank on your server or being able to clobber stuff as fast as the next guy.

And if it is tied up in that stuff, then go look at the top ranked guy and level up everything the same way he has. Nothing stopping you from doing that either.

But instead it seems some of you care so much about how everyone else is playing that you'd insist on bringing back the pigeon-hole system FFXI has, where every job has to fit neatly in its slot to get anything done, and some jobs are left out entirely.

Where's the fun in that?

---

It should be pretty obvious as evidenced by the pro-subjob section that you're not allowed to enjoy things ever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaedan

I made a comment last night about this.

I love the armory system and don't want to see it pigeon-holed into strict class roles again.

What I would like to see though is a FF: Tactics style system added. The big problem right now is that you can equip any skill on any class, taking away part of the uniqueness. In Tactics, you could learn any skill you wanted, but certain classes could only equip certain types of skills (with the exception of Squire I believe). They should do this with FFXIV.

For example: Cure could be equipped by any class. However, Cure II+ could only be equipped by Mage classes and Gladiator (to make a Paladin-type class or similar).

---

Which Final Fantasy Tactics games have you played? Definately not square enix ones... The tactics games are just like XI in which you choose a subjob.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcell

The game being free to play currently has nothing to do with the addition of job/subjob. The game was released way too early and the team behind it wasn't doing a good enough job, it's as simple as that. The game deserves better than job/subjob and to be honest it does deserve better than the current system. I believe Yoshida and the new team can create something far better than both and that's what the game needs.

Edit: Also I never said I'm completely against restrictions and disregard everything relating to them. I've said countless times that I'm actually in favor of some additional restrictions but nothing as harsh as job/subjob.

---

It's been +6months since the "release too early" concept. We are still bleeding profusely. Something far better has to be more then a figment of ones imagination at this point.

FF14 was suppose to be "far better" when the hype was kicking in as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kimahri

How about you name me one job that was completely left out? You've no idea what you're talking about. Every job in FFXI had a role to accomplish. That role made it an important part of the gameplay. Like I said; An army is made up of different categories of infantry with different roles to accomplish. They all don't do every role.

---

Gladly. Once the melee burn mentality began, black mages stopped being able to get into exp parties. Half their spells and abilities were wasted (elemental debuffs, magic bursting) and they had to more or less solo their way to the top because although no one wanted them for exp parties, they sure as heck wanted them for endgame.

There's one, but I'll give you another. In the same boat was the noble paladin. Once blink-tanking became the popular way to do exp parties, paladins started getting left out in the cold - but as soon as they got big enough for end game, people needed them again.

Not to mention how after the 2-handed patch, monks started being picked last to dragoon and samurai who became the new heavy hitting DDs. Warriors had to drop their one handed axes for two handers. Invites as a thief stopped coming around 40 or so - whenever it became too much of a bother to lineup for SA/TA. All because if you didn't have things just so or didn't do enough damage in a melee, you weren't going to get an invite to a exp party.

Anyone who mained any of these jobs (especially prior to the level sync addition) probably felt very left out.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I believe I every idea of what I'm talking about because I actually still play FFXI - I still deal with that system and all the restrictions you are in favor of. Granted, I play it nowhere near as much as XIV these days, but that's because I have more fun here.

Maybe you've forgotten how just about everyone had to have ninja leveled for sub job, especially for events; Even the white mages. Even the bards. Black mages needed it for solo up till 51. You say an army is made up of different roles. Different ways of doing things. And yet...

It seems to me the system in FFXIV would support your army argument far better than the system FFXI had. Everyone here can fill whatever role they want to build for themselves. If I enjoyed having that role decided for me by popular exp trends, as well as what skills to use on it, I'd be playing FFXI a lot more than I am right now.

Okay. Here we go.

You are right in a sense that blm did become less required during the phase of melee zerg, but that didn't make the job completely not used. Remember. I said name a job that was not used COMPLETELY. Black Mage was a hinderance in a melee burn, yes, but it became far more useful as a mana burn job. Have you ever been in a blm burn party before? Hands down the best parties I've ever had in terms of xp. Except maybe the smn burn in korroloka tunnel after the level sync patch. Going from 12-23 in five minutes? Haha, a blast. Left a big gap in my skill tree though.

Paladin: This one you've got it completely backwards. The only time you ever seen someone focusing more on a blink tank turning parties was when it was a merit party. It was far more effective to have a tank that could deal more damage, like Ninja, over a Paladin. However during the leveling phases you seen much more Paladin tanks over Ninja because they could hold Emnity better, tank better, and probably would never die under the right group. Remember. Ninjitsu would lose Emnity after every shadow hit which would turn Ninja into a piss poor emnity tank. You remember seeing Ninja's using Emnity+2 earrings in the Aht Urghan area's? Yeah.

Now let's get on your subject of two-handed weapons before I talk about Monk. Yes. For a time there two-handed weapons soared in DPS after their patch. However SE quickly repatched their error and turned them into only slightly better DD because of their two-handed weapons. After the patch, I still seen Thiefs, Warriors with two axes, Monks, Ninja's, etc, etc, being put into a party because if you knew your job well then DPS would stay the same as any other. I remember a Thief and I would completely wipe the floor with a second Imp with two weaponskills than join the fray on the first to further our skillchain bonuses. Oh, and it's about time Warrior finally excells greater in using Great Axe than regular Axes. It's main weapon was Great Axe. Look it up.

Let's get onto Monk now. Since I was a Monk, I think I know what I'm talking about. These were one of the greatest solo experts and party players if you knew what you were doing. When solo, stack as much counter gear as possible. When in a party? Haste and Destroyers or some very fast, high damaging weapon. I could just as easily kept up with my Samurai in merit parties because of my haste build. Not to mention that Asuran Fists would always pack a big wallop. The only thing that SE did wrong was make them useless in endgame scenes where their fists accounted for hardly nothing. However in Sea they were still great. That one they got right. Sky & HNM though? Not too great.

For the last time I'd like to state again that I asked you to name me one job that was completely......completely left out. Not one job on your list explained this. You had a couple concerns regarding your own experiences, but seeing as how I leveled all those jobs you mentioned. I had not one problem. If you took the time to look for alternatives to a melee zerg group, you might've had a greater time.

Oh! And as far as how this game is a much greater example to my army argument than FFXI was? How so? Remember. I said that if you were a Pikeman you couldn't pick up a bow and fire it while fending off the calvary onslaught. Seems to me that you can be an Archer in this game and still stand there blow for blow. In FFXI a job had a specific role. In FFXIV you can take whatever every role you want from every class. No, that's not how my Army works. You don't take a Tax Attorney to be your lawyer against a murder charge. It's not their field. I can list many more similies.

P.S. Reika. If you noticed, I hadn't called Chione stupid or to shut up. As I said, I don't like people who don't contribute nothing or use examples that doesn't deal with this current issue....Like you!

Do you have some kind of strange attachment to Reika or something?

0_o

How in FFXIV can a Lancer pick up a bow and fire it in the midst of a battle? I mean sure between encounters if you've got one on you you can switch out but it's really no different than running home and changing it there, it just takes less time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcell

How in FFXIV can a Lancer pick up a bow and fire it in the midst of a battle? I mean sure between encounters if you've got one on you you can switch out but it's really no different than running home and changing it there, it just takes less time.

---

Thats a thing i miss, being able to equip different weapons for each job.

Still waiting on my great sword.

There was nothing wrong with FFXI Job/Sub Job system it was great and it did allow a lot of flexibility, the only thing wrong with it were the PLAYERS. It was the players that expected you to /NIN for everything not the actual game.

The thing is people think FFXIV is great because you aren't "pigeon holed" into a role, but that is because the game is still young, FFXI was the same when it came out people used lots of different sub jobs. Once the game matures people will expect you to have certain abilities and if you don't you will be gimp, there is no avoiding that it will happen. Only thing is, that in FFXIV it will be 10x worse for you because instead of having to level that one job half way to have the sub job of choice you will have to level lots of classes to cap maybe just to get those select few abilities that everyone will expect you to have.

For example as soon as something like Utsusemi comes along it won't matter what class you are you will be expected to have it on your class, so will have to level whatever class has it to that level just to get it.

If they add ninja and Utsuemi, I dont think it will have as good of an effect it did as in FFXI, or like some skills, It just wont be cross-classablie, like Speed Surge and Shadowsere.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

The thing is people think FFXIV is great because you aren't "pigeon holed" into a role, but that is because the game is still young, FFXI was the same when it came out people used lots of different sub jobs. Once the game matures people will expect you to have certain abilities and if you don't you will be gimp, there is no avoiding that it will happen. Only thing is, that in FFXIV it will be 10x worse for you because instead of having to level that one job half way to have the sub job of choice you will have to level lots of classes to cap maybe just to get those select few abilities that everyone will expect you to have.

---

Not everyone and their linkshell demands the most optimum build. Some of us build on a theme or just to try something different. For example, in City of Heroes, my favorite build was a Storm/Energy defender. Complete and utter chaos on the battlefield. Not efficient by any means, but crazy fun to play. In each of my builds in FFXIV, I generally pull abilities from a minimum of three classes. However, there are times when I'll just use abilities from only the main class. The flexibility is there so that we can use it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dreamer

Not everyone and their linkshell demands the most optimum build. Some of us build on a theme or just to try something different. For example, in City of Heroes, my favorite build was a Storm/Energy defender. Complete and utter chaos on the battlefield. Not efficient by any means, but crazy fun to play. In each of my builds in FFXIV, I generally pull abilities from a minimum of three classes. However, there are times when I'll just use abilities from only the main class. The flexibility is there so that we can use it.

---

And you couldn't do that with the Job/Sub Job system in FFXI?????? Like I said in FFXI the system allows you to play around but keep balance and defined roles without things getting out of hand, in FFXIV they have to water down all the skills and abilities because you could cross class all the abilities and come up with a super class if they were actually effective.

Regardless I still say that the dev team could come up with something far superior to both the current system and certainly job/subjob. I'd rather see them innovate than copy/paste an old outdated idea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

There was nothing wrong with FFXI Job/Sub Job system it was great and it did allow a lot of flexibility, the only thing wrong with it were the PLAYERS. It was the players that expected you to /NIN for everything not the actual game.

The thing is people think FFXIV is great because you aren't "pigeon holed" into a role, but that is because the game is still young, FFXI was the same when it came out people used lots of different sub jobs. Once the game matures people will expect you to have certain abilities and if you don't you will be gimp, there is no avoiding that it will happen. Only thing is, that in FFXIV it will be 10x worse for you because instead of having to level that one job half way to have the sub job of choice you will have to level lots of classes to cap maybe just to get those select few abilities that everyone will expect you to have.

For example as soon as something like Utsusemi comes along it won't matter what class you are you will be expected to have it on your class, so will have to level whatever class has it to that level just to get it.

---

Quote:

---

Like I said in FFXI the system allows you to play around but keep balance and defined roles without things getting out of hand, in FFXIV they have to water down all the skills and abilities because you could cross class all the abilities and come up with a super class if they were actually effective.

---

Thank you, Alexia. You have a point. People don't seem to think that what you say will happen in the future, but a lot of them probably hasn't played as long as both of us to know what we're talking about. It's like when I was talking about ranger/thief in parties. It used to stack Sneak Attack onto it's weaponskill and easily do 2-3k++ damage. Being able to use whatever abilities you want right now would seriously criple it's survivability in that SE would have to seriously water down a lot to accomplish a fair balance without any classes being unique.

This system could still work, but a lot of abilities would need to be class restricted. As I said, I have no problem with some abilities being allowed to cross over. There are a few in every class that could be switched over without that said class losing any respect. Bloodbath, Provoke, Second Wind(Melee only), etc. They don't really define the classes and would help the other classes in a way.

Anywho. Hooray for the development team finally stating that they ARE bringing back Auto-Attack. Maybe now people will see that you and I aren't as bat**** crazy as they think.

What's wrong with job/subjob?

Quite easy. For one, it's excessively limiting and the number of viable combinations is not that high. An inevitable consequence of that is that cookie-cutter be all end all combinations tend to be the only ones accepted (with reason), making the freedom of choice between job/subjob a completely illusory one, and as such moot.

On the other hand the FFXIV armory system offers a much higher amount of combinations, and while a certain amount of cookie-cuttering will always exist, the viable combinations are much more, making freedom of choice and personalization much more relevant.

It's quite simple, really.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Abriael

What's wrong with job/subjob?

Quite easy. For one, it's excessively limiting and the number of viable combinations is not that high. An inevitable consequence of that is that cookie-cutter be all end all combinations tend to be the only ones accepted (with reason), making the freedom of choice between job/subjob a completely illusory one, and as such moot.

On the other hand the FFXIV armory system offers a much higher amount of combinations, and while a certain amount of cookie-cuttering will always exist, the viable combinations are much more, making freedom of choice and personalization much more relevant.

It's quite simple, really.

---

Personalization of what? It just led to the same result, only worse. We don't even have distinction of classes anymore, we just have distinction of skill combinations.

You're a defensive ugly chimera, an ugly DD chimera, or a healing ugly chimera.

and true to chimera nature, the cheapest and most dominating strains come out to hide its weaknesses.

That's true freedom for you, a beast of min/maxing.

Holy Jesus. Enough with these excuses of cookie-cutter bull****. In the end this system will fall along the same lines and it will turn into less "viable combinations" as FFXI.

Abriael let's go ahead and do something right now. Let's do some number crunching. Let's say that there were three different job/subjob combinations for every class.....This isn't true, since almost every job had well over that many viable combinations. There are twenty(20) jobs currently available in FFXI. Simple math results in 60 possible optimal builds, or "Cookie-Cutter" combinations that you could come up with. Don't know about you, but that hardly seems very limiting. You act as if every job had to sub ninja or else be scorned.

P.S. Not to mention that your character had different sets of gear for different strategies. Different merits into different jobs. And also overall different players to play their own character. For Samurai I had two sets of gear; TP and WS. For Black Mage I had three; Elemental, Enfeebling, Dark Magic. Again. That's a lot of viable combinations for your so called "Cookie-cutter" jargon.

Hey, I'm just glad they're not going to implement job/subjob. As I've stated many times, I know the dev team is better than that. They will create something better suited to FFXIV.

What that is I have no idea but hey, it can't be worse than what we've already got or job/subjob can it? :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kimahri

Holy Jesus. Enough with these excuses of cookie-cutter bull****. In the end this system will fall along the same lines and it will turn into less "viable combinations" as FFXI.

Abriael let's go ahead and do something right now. Let's do some number crunching. Let's say that there were three different job/subjob combinations for every class.....This isn't true, since almost every job had well over that many viable combinations. There are twenty(20) jobs currently available in FFXI. Simple math results in 60 possible optimal builds, or "Cookie-Cutter" combinations that you could come up with. Don't know about you, but that hardly seems very limiting. You act as if every job had to sub ninja or else be scorned.

P.S. Not to mention that your character had different sets of gear for different strategies. Different merits into different jobs. And also overall different players to play their own character. For Samurai I had two sets of gear; TP and WS. For Black Mage I had three; Elemental, Enfeebling, Dark Magic. Again. That's a lot of viable combinations for your so called "Cookie-cutter" jargon.

---

and using your numbers there are many more builds with the system in place now due to not being limited to 2 classes at a time even with less classes.

Why are people so focused on this 'freedom'? It sucks, and accounts for more people soloing in this game. And half the skills you do mix up, give the same effect and damage that your current class skills do. The only skills people mix up are protect, shell, cure, sacrafice, ferocity, and well.. thats about it. Not so much freedom when people choose the SAME thing. It'd seem more useful to have subjobs that people can have a like and still have some use in those skills

To much freedom is what has killed this game as everything has to be balanced to keep everything equal so that just makes everything the same. With job/sub job you could make classes more special as you could only select skills from 1 other class that is half your current rank. That kept everything in check.

With the system we have now could you imagine if skills and abilities were effective????? Think if they took the skills and abilities from FFXI and made them effective like they were in that. OMG you could hit cap with every class and just destroy everything. But they new that so that is why they put in the restrictions, FFXIV has very few restrictions so they have had to make everything level as to not give anything an advantage and that just makes it boring.

inability to handle freedom for some people is part of the reason this game is dying. don't blame freedom for the inability to handle it. even with a job/sub job system this game is still very much broken and to blame this as the reason the game is in bad shape is quite nearsighted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

and using your numbers there are many more builds with the system in place now due to not being limited to 2 classes at a time even with less classes.

---

You're completely disregarding something. Being able to select any abilities currently from any class is what is making this class system less unique and being even more limited than FFXI. In the end it'll turn into you leveling a class for a certain ability. You can say what you think about how I presume too much, but remember I've been in FFXI since the day it started. I think I know what I'm talking about. Also when you all said that if I didn't have the right subjob that you would be shunned by the community? Think down the future. "Haha! What a noob! He doesn't have [Insert Skill] on his [Insert Class] yet! Let's kick him."

Please don't tell me how to restrict myself so you can enjoy a system by only yourself. I'd like to think of others since this is a MMO. If I didn't want to play with others, I'd go buy a single-player game.

Quote:

---

inability to handle freedom for some people is part of the reason this game is dying. don't blame freedom for the inability to handle it. even with a job/sub job system this game is still very much broken and to blame this as the reason the game is in bad shape is quite nearsighted.

---

No. Inability is not the reason we're leaving the game. We're leaving the game because this current class system is boring and repetative. There is no motivation behind leveling a certain class other than to obtain additional skills to use for other classes. I want to level Marauder because it is a Marauder. Not because I can use it's abilities on Gladiator and be 'Supreme' over only just a Marauder. This system is not engaging for me, and it's the same for a damn good number of others as well. Just to state a fact, but 85.1% of everyone around the world said that they would be in favor of SE drastically changing the very foundational laws that govern Eorzea.

Nobody is here to wreck a game, but with the way you guys complain you do nothing to further other people's desires. It's just like Auto-Attack. The one's opposed against it think it'll be less engaging when there really isn't any legitimate reason behind that. People were engaged during XI's auto-attack phase. A very big reasoning behind implementing this is that it gives us time to chat to others, look up information on the fly, change over to YouTube so we can listen to some music, etc, etc. It's why they eliminated TBA in the old FF RPG because all it was would be button mashing once you engaged in combat.

Edit: Sorry. I just logged onto IGN.com and seen this at a glance and let me tell you. This review of Dynasty Warriors 7 reflects a lot of how I feel about FFXIV.

Quote:

---

"Dynasty Warriors 7 is one of those games that really only appeals to a certain niche of gamers. Dynasty Warriors fans are going to find a whole lot to like with Dynasty Warriors 7, including an expansive set of options that will keep players busy for a very long time. But for everybody else, playing Dynasty Warriors 7 will be a chore. The gameplay is repetitive and boring, the aesthetics are bland, and the story -- while interesting and chock-full of characters -- can be hard to follow and bogged-down by melodramatic delivery.

In other words, those who are already into the Dynasty Warriors franchise will love Dynasty Warriors 7. Everybody else should stay away."

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

inability to handle freedom for some people is part of the reason this game is dying. don't blame freedom for the inability to handle it. even with a job/sub job system this game is still very much broken and to blame this as the reason the game is in bad shape is quite nearsighted.

---

The current system is not the only reason the game is in bad shape but it is one of the reasons. For example say I levelled every class to R50 but 1. So I start levelling that class do you really think being able to pick R50 abilities from every other class I have levelled for a R1 class is balance. No it isn't, the system needs balance and a lot of it, one of the main reasons that most skills and abilities are all meh is because if they were actually any good everyone would level to get them and make a super class that pwns everything.

So the system needs balance, Job/Sub Job was a form of balance which still allowed classes to be different and effective. If SE can make the current system work, keep balance and make classes different and effective then great I'm all for it. However I am not happy with the current system because of how it ruins classes from being different and effective it just makes them all meh with nothing special about them.