Is it time for SE to give PLDs a good bump in terms of DPS?

330 in full Shield is basically impossible for T13. Our clears where PLD stays in Sword Oath for all but the add phase puts him at around 300 DPS, in basically BiS.

Paladin running with more damage = Healers doing less damage. So I mean it's a harsh problem - sure you can run 300+ DPS on PLD but your healers aren't going to contribute hardly any DPS. Or you can suck it up and wear some VIT and run 200-215 DPS which will let your healers run 200+ DPS and you've got a net gain.

Tank damage helps - but it can hinder as well.

sure that the dynamics is affected when tanks try to squeeze some dps but my main issue is this. i had this one WoD run where I was MTing when a WAR only wearing i110 weapon was able to rip aggro from me after establishing aggro for quite sometime. you can check my equipment in lodestone and i reaaly have no idea how he was able to do it when i have all my bonus points to STR and had a DRG and MNK in the party that boosted my STR further. clearly there's an issue with PLD dps that a WAR with i110 was able to steal aggro.

You're wearing full fending accessories, he was probably wearing full STR, 30 points in STR, and the DRG/MNK also boosted his STR. He was also very likely in Defiance with all his offensive buffs going and either doing SE -> BB or just spamming BB. Has nothing to do with DPS, WAR can just pull significantly more initial burst threat than PLD.

TBH we need a slight change in provoke mechanics; make it more like an absolute FORCE target change for 5~6s, long enough to replenish enmity either by popping FoF and 123ing or by ensuring snap with Circle of Scorn and Shield Lob.

Sry for the necro but i was wondering if its still consensus that PLDs deal more dps in sword oath than warriors without defiance? Also how is it without the slashing debuff?

PLD needs the slashing debuff to hang with WARs with defiance off. They are extremely close in DPS outside of their tanking stances.

On paper the two classes seem pretty balanced in what they can do. It's all dependent on how players actually play these classes.

they are close but war still does more dmg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gildarts

they are close but war still does more dmg

---

If anything PLD has the edge esp with a low delay weapon. Assuming there is a WAR or NIN putting the slashing debuff up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rawker

Now as the title states, is it time for SE to give some love to PLDs in the damage-dealing department?

---

Nope. There's got to be some sort of give and take. Paladins have stronger defensive cooldowns and less offensive while Warriors have the reverse and I think it should stay like that.

Here is a nice parse between one of the best WARs and best PLD players. Its pretty damn even. 486dps vs 475dps on Turn 10 with no echo.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CF3X0jmVIAADCOY.png:large

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SirTaint

If anything PLD has the edge esp with a low delay weapon. Assuming there is a WAR or NIN putting the slashing debuff up.

---

nah i don't think so, they are really close on DPS but war will win still, seeing most parsers since second coil and now final coil war always a head of PLD.

new changes will take pld higher for sure, but also war got better with DPS stance, just hoping its not gcd based like pld now it have the DPS stance T o T

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SirTaint

Here is a nice parse between one of the best WARs and best PLD players. Its pretty damn even. 486dps vs 475dps on Turn 10 with no echo.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CF3X0jmVIAADCOY.png:large

---

saw that and there is this too


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX6pERH5rPE

The main draw of SwO PLD's DPS is that it's boosted by MTing (b/c Shield Swipe procs) and doesn't really cost them any defense outside of the ShO damage reduction. This is insanely useful in overgeared content, as you can have the WAR pull with Unchained, PLD OT with FoF Sword Oath, and then swap after the duration of both without needing the PLD to change stances. For undergeared content where you need to use the defensive stance, WAR MT + PLD OT is highest DPS, and unfortunately PLD loses out on Shield Swipe procs because of this and WAR's damage is nerfed to hell and back but... what can you do.

Anyway, because they're so even they compliment eachother in this way. I think 3.0 will be interesting because WAR is now getting an offensive stance, whereas PLD is just getting other combos. I'm curious how that'll play out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gildarts

nah i don't think so, they are really close on DPS but war will win still, seeing most parsers since second coil and now final coil war always a head of PLD.

new changes will take pld higher for sure, but also war got better with DPS stance, just hoping its not gcd based like pld now it have the DPS stance T o T




saw that and there is this too


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX6pERH5rPE

---

It is extremely rare for me to get outparsed in T10-12 by even the best WARs. It requires MTing to consistently beat them due to Shield swipe being a DPS increase and a TP saver. If the Lucerzia PLD MTed more of the fight he would have pulled ahead for sure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SirTaint

It is extremely rare for me to get outparsed in T10-12 by even the best WARs. It requires MTing to consistently beat them due to Shield swipe being a DPS increase and a TP saver. If the Lucerzia PLD MTed more of the fight he would have pulled ahead for sure.

---

you can check the parsers of wars and plds on many forums, you will see that war have better numbers and reached numbers paladin haven't ;o

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gildarts

you can check the parsers of wars and plds on many forums, you will see that war have better numbers and reached numbers paladin haven't ;o

---

And most PLDs have no idea how to parse :p

WARs have been allowed to run full STR spec since SCoB. Most PLDs are still reluctant to do so even with 15% echo. WARs in general have been pushing DPS far longer then PLDs. PLD DPSing also has an added element of RNG. (blocks)

PLD starts losing when AOE situations occur. PLD can't inflate DPS that way, whereas WAR can. Shield Swipe is also proc based and requires the boss to be hitting you with physical attacks (aka rip PLD in Ramuh). A lot of things need to align for PLD to actually out parse WAR, but they are otherwise fairly even - especially with PLD as MT in SwO. Anyway, it doesn't really matter for the moment since you want both PLD and WAR for most content (Ramuh and potentially T11 being the exceptions). In 3.0 it will be interesting, but purely speculating I think WAR + DRK will be the strong DPS comp for progression (due to WAR's new offensive stance/Storm's Eye + what seems like a vulnerability down debuff from DRK), and then PLD + WAR or PLD + DRK will rise when content is overgeared. Hopefully those sort of set ups will just be absolute min/maxing for DPS and everything ends up fairly even.

Hard to tell and/or guess how thinks will shake out in Heavensward. Yoshi-P's team is likely trying to make it so that PLD/PLD, PLD/WAR, PLD/DRK, WAR/WAR, and WAR/DRK pairings are equally viable. Paladins should be getting a serious DpS buff from Gore Blade and Royal Authority so I'm expecting all 3 Tank's DpS numbers to be in roughly the same area even with the Warrior's new DpS stance.

Also, I'm thinking the DRK's Delirium Blade "weakness" debuff isn't a vulnerability up, but a damage down debuff like Rage of Halone/Storm's Path.

Warrior have lot more aoe potential than pld like steel cyclone, overpower and vengeance is pretty good too if you tank multiple adds at same time. That is the reason warr parse more most of time. For singletarget PLD with slashing debuff and sword oath > warrior without defiance > paladin without slashing debuff and sword oath > Warrior with defiance > PLD with shield oath.

so warriors get a dps stance in heavenward what about the pld's who already do lower dps than a war when off tanking?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

so warriors get a dps stance in heavenward what about the pld's who already do lower dps than a war when off tanking?

---

PLD will get ...

Royal Authority

Damage-only finisher from Savage Blade

Gore Blade

DoT finisher from Riot Blade

Divine Veil

Any cures received during the buff also gives a barrier to nearby party members

Sheltron

Guarantees the next attack will be blocked

Clemency

Heals himself and party members

Unnamed skill

Recovers MP when you block

Adjustments to help boost defense for all party members.
Shield Oath given an Accuracy Buff

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

so warriors get a dps stance in heavenward what about the pld's who already do lower dps than a war when off tanking?

---

Cept PLD doesn't do less then a WAR off tanking with slashing up (assuming gear, of course)...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gildarts

PLD will get ...

Royal Authority

Damage-only finisher from Savage Blade

Gore Blade

DoT finisher from Riot Blade

Divine Veil

Any cures received during the buff also gives a barrier to nearby party members

Sheltron

Guarantees the next attack will be blocked

Clemency

Heals himself and party members

Unnamed skill

Recovers MP when you block

Adjustments to help boost defense for all party members.
Shield Oath given an Accuracy Buff

---

all of these new abilities add a real variety to the class. looking forward to heavensward.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

so warriors get a dps stance in heavenward what about the pld's who already do lower dps than a war when off tanking?

---

This is why PLDs can't have nice things lol.

Did you read the past 10 pages? PLDs and WARs are within 1% of each other. PLDs do better on single target, WARs have AoE.

I don't think PLD should get more DPS abilities. The idea about classes that do the same job is that they need to go about doing said job differently -- IMO WARs should be doing more damage than PLDs, because defensively PLDs are higher up than Warriors. Aggro through damage, etc., while PLDs have more utility to bring to the table. To ensure that they are always useful, there are even some things that PLDs are better at tanking than WARs, and vice versa.

Mind you, I'm relatively new to tanking in this game (I tried leveling up a PLD, got bored to tears, leveled up DRG to 50, and am now eyeing PLD again to get my might right for DRK) but I've tanked in several other MMOs and they usually tend to follow a similar pattern -- There's Class A that tanks primarily through defense/utility that, more often than not, gets to be the MT and then there's Class B that tanks with a lot of HP that does more damage, but lacks some of the defensive capabilities/utility of class A.

That's the trade off from one class to another. Either class can tank anything in the game, but one will usually be preferred over another for different content. PLDs are great for most things, but there's something that WARs should do better at (at least, damage aside) than PLDs and that's spike damage.

If a PLD has 7k HP and a WAR has 11k HP, and a mob swings for 5000 twice, then the PLD will get 2 shotted while the WAR won't -- Even with the 20% damage mitigation. If a mob swings for 8400 damage, then the PLD will be one-shotted but the WAR will still be standing.

PLDs and WARs do things differently, and more DPS for the PLD doesn't seem to fit the kind of design that they were created under since that's more WARs' territory. Also consider that if the PLDs get more DPS, then maybe WARs should get a shield/buckler? It starts leading to homogenization of classes, and, IMO, that's a bad thing.

If this was brought up previously I apologize; I am only on page 3 of the thread and trying to get caught up.

Because of duty finder then have to balance jobs to be comparable. They can't have parties disband because they got 2 PLDs and the fight calls for 2 WARs. It's the same reason all DPS have to be of equal value.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Syfer22

If a PLD has 7k HP and a WAR has 11k HP, and a mob swings for 5000 twice, then the PLD will get 2 shotted while the WAR won't -- Even with the 20% damage mitigation. If a mob swings for 8400 damage, then the PLD will be one-shotted but the WAR will still be standing.

---

Well yeah, in your example the WAR has 150 or more VIT than the PLD, of course he's gonna survive more hits X_X

If anything PLD is the one who will survive the two hits. They're roughly equal in eHP but PLD will have the very realistic chance to block one of those two attacks, something that puts it slightly ahead in pure survivability just beyond comparing CDs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sleigh

Well yeah, in your example the WAR has 150 or more VIT than the PLD, of course he's gonna survive more hits X_X

---

From what I've heard about WAR versus PLD, isn't there usually a difference in actual HP amounts? If not then nix what I said; apparently HP tanking as a class feature is something that happens in other MMOs and not so much here.

And to make sure I'm on the same page as you, does "eHP" mean "effective HP?" Not a term I'm too familiar with, so I wanted to make sure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SirTaint

Because of duty finder then have to balance jobs to be comparable. They can't have parties disband because they got 2 PLDs and the fight calls for 2 WARs. It's the same reason all DPS have to be of equal value.

---

All DPS aren't of equal value. BRD do generally less DPS but have far more raid utility, BLM do a lot more on AoE, etc...

Balance is more than just personnal damage numbers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

All DPS aren't of equal value. BRD do generally less DPS but have far more raid utility, BLM do a lot more on AoE, etc...

Balance is more than just personnal damage numbers.

---

And then there's class synergy, like BRD versus BRD attacking a Disemboweled target.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Syfer22

From what I've heard about WAR versus PLD, isn't there usually a difference in actual HP amounts? If not then nix what I said; apparently HP tanking as a class feature is something that happens in other MMOs and not so much here.

And to make sure I'm on the same page as you, does "eHP" mean "effective HP?" Not a term I'm too familiar with, so I wanted to make sure.

---

Paladin's have a lot more mitigation, so something that hits a WAR for 5k is going to do a bit less to PLD's outside of certain abilities that always do the same amount of damage (and usually those just plain wipe you no matter what anyways.) A PLD with 7k health, if he changed over to WAR with the exact same gear set-up, would have about upper 8-lower9k health with Defiance on. Your WAR example there would have had the PLD with 9k health, and this enough mitigation to survive that damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dualblade

Paladin's have a lot more mitigation, so something that hits a WAR for 5k is going to do a bit less to PLD's outside of certain abilities that always do the same amount of damage (and usually those just plain wipe you no matter what anyways.) A PLD with 7k health, if he changed over to WAR with the exact same gear set-up, would have about upper 8-lower9k health with Defiance on. Your WAR example there would have had the PLD with 9k health, and this enough mitigation to survive that damage.

---

So only a 1-2k HP difference? Huh... I'm starting to think it's WARs that need a buff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Syfer22

From what I've heard about WAR versus PLD, isn't there usually a difference in actual HP amounts? If not then nix what I said; apparently HP tanking as a class feature is something that happens in other MMOs and not so much here.

---

Outside of Defiance, a level 50 Warrior will have only 85 more hp than a level 50 Paladin if they have the same amount of bonus points distributed to Vit. When Defiance is up Warriors get a +25% hp bonus and a +20% heal bonus in comparison to the Paladin's -20% damage taken.

Quote:

---

And to make sure I'm on the same page as you, does "eHP" mean "effective HP?" Not a term I'm too familiar with, so I wanted to make sure.

---

Yes, eHP means effective hp. A Paladin with 9k base hp will have 9k actual hp and 11250 effective HP while Shield Oath is active. A Warrior with 9k base hp will have 11250 actual and effective hp in Defiance. Meaning that iit will take the same number of attacks to bring them both down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Syfer22

So only a 1-2k HP difference? Huh... I'm starting to think it's WARs that need a buff.

---

No offense, but you have neither tank class at 50 so you have no idea how their mitigation works or compares. WAR's 25% HP boost and 20% healing increase is pretty much identical to Shield Oath, and they both have the same base HP outside of tank stances. They have the same eHP in equal gear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

All DPS aren't of equal value. BRD do generally less DPS but have far more raid utility, BLM do a lot more on AoE, etc...

Balance is more than just personnal damage numbers.

---

Equal value. Not sure how else to read that. DPS+Raid utility they are all very even. Some do more DPS, so some more utility.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Syfer22

So only a 1-2k HP difference? Huh... I'm starting to think it's WARs that need a buff.

---

WAR actually was lagging behind a bit at launch from what I've read, but since has gotten better and now both do very well. I will say that PLD's tend to be the go to for main tanking, while still having a WAR there instead of stacking two would be preferable. And of course WARs can main tank all content, though some it takes a bit more work.

Level your tanks up and try em out!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Launched

No offense, but you have neither tank class at 50 so you have no idea how their mitigation works or compares. WAR's 25% HP boost and 20% healing increase is pretty much identical to Shield Oath, and they both have the same base HP outside of tank stances. They have the same eHP in equal gear.

---

None taken, I'm aware I don't have either up to 50 -- Just taking principles of job classes from other MMOs and seeing if they hold true here.

A question I have, though, is if they're pretty much identical (+HP/healing versus +20% damage mit) what's the point? In other games there were fights where you'd want a class with higher HP to help with spikes, and other fights where you wanted the sheer damage mit. Are there no fights like that in this game?

I have a level 50 DRG right now so I've at least DONE the endgame fights, just not as a tank.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SirTaint

Some do more DPS, so some more utility.

---

It's the same for tanks.
With the new skills (As far as we know), having a PLD will reduce damage taken for the whole raid.

Sure, but they can't make tanks so different that content is not doable with any combo. Think about 2.0 when people would bail in DF if both tanks were WARs and most coil groups were double PLD.

SE is designing jobs so they all bring similar benefits to the raid as a whole.