Sick of unjust vote dismisses

If everywhere you go, you smell poop, it may just be on you.

That's a funny way of saying that vote kick isn't the problem you describe. Change how you interact with other people instead of attempting to change the system.

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Originally Posted by Elim

You know. I've only been vote-kicked once in all the time I've played. It was back in the day when I leveled my first tank to 50. I was gearing up and admittedly uncomfortable in the role(PLD). I went in AK for the relic quest; at that point in time the best weapon I had was ilv70. I got paired with a BLM decked out in all BIS and had issues keeping aggro off him. He swore his face off at me. First time I saw someone rage so hard, tbh. I said sorry and explained myself. Right before the last boss he laughed at me and then I was vote kicked. /shrug

But I would rather come across people like that BLM and get voted kicked then not have a vote kick at all. I remember when there was no vote kick. It was TERRIBLE.

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Agreed, I had a similar story. Was testing my Scholar in Aurum Vale.The tank decided he wanted to pull the whole room at once, without really asking me if I was comfortable with it. We wiped twice, and then I was kicked because I couldn't handle it or whatever.

Ironically, I re-queued immediately and ended up in the same run with the same group. Asked what I was kicked for, answer was "offline" which obviously was bullshit, but whatever, I decided to move on and didn't say anything. Nobody spoke for the rest of the run, but the end of the story is that we smoothly got through the rest of the dungeons without any wipe, and I was rewarded with 3/3 commendations.

Kick abuse is definitely there, but to show people you deserve better than that you only need to be mature and respect if you want to be respected. This is why I think Vote Kick should stay, as well as that kicked people should be able to re-enter the duties their kicked from. Just like I did, people can and should have chances to prove they're better than what people think. But you of course MUST be better than what people think.

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Originally Posted by KaedrianLiang

A. Not talking or replying to idle chit chat within the party. There are days where i don't feel like chatting in a DF.
D. Having the minimum entry requirements to a Duty. This was when i first started playing 2.0. This was not a PF party. Maiden run through relic reborn quest trials. "kick that smn" "what? why?" "your gear sucks" "you have been dismissed from duty"
E. watching cutscenes, without being prompt to skip cutscenes. This was during my maiden run through praetorium.
I. Not pulling multiple groups at a time when playing as the tank. Non-speed run.
J. Pulling multiple groups at a time when playing as the Tank. Speed Run.
L. Not adding dps as a healer.
M. Adding dps as a healer.
N. Not using cleric stance when adding dps as a healer. level sync duty. Only had 2 slots as a sch for additional skills/spells. I chose protect and presence of mind.
O. Spamming aoe heal's during during Garuda HM as to attract the sister aggro, solo heal 3 runs in no deaths. under 3 minute clears. Must have hurt the 2nd tank's pride, even though i stated "OT focus garuda plz"
Q. As a BLM, using varying Thunder I, II, III, to suit the moment. "Why aren't you using Thunder III all the time?" thats like asking why arent you using fire III all the time?

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I picked the things i do more or less and even after having every class, except monk, leveled to 50, i never got votekicked so far.
but thats probly because im keeping "critism" to myself, since im not going to see this players ever again.
Im not sure how you get kicked that often, but i guess its because, the reasons stated above were not the only reasons.

Im pretty sure most people get kicked because they are being jerks, while they are not THAT good.

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Originally Posted by KaedrianLiang

N. Not using cleric stance when adding dps as a healer. level sync duty. Only had 2 slots as a sch for additional skills/spells. I chose protect and presence of mind.

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Are you sure you chose PoM? That's a WHM skill from the level 30 job quest if I remember correctly.

Presence of Mind is a WHM only skill -- perhaps you were thinking swiftcast?

In any case, most of the abusive kicks are because people are jerks. They don't understand that when you enter into DF, you have to deal with the group you are getting. You might have a new player who wants to watch cut scenes or doesn't know the dungeon tactics. You might have a new tank and need to hold back your aggro if you're geared. The responsibility of that is all on -you- as a player and if you'd rather kick someone than be a pleasant citizen in Eorzea, then :mad:

My personal opinion that if SE doesn't enforce abusive kicks, then each time you initiate a kick, you should incur a penalty -- whether the kick was legitimate or not. That penalty adds a timer onto when you can next kick someone in a dungeon and increases with each penalty incurred, so eventually, someone who repeatedly kicks will never be able to kick. That timer would decrease over time as long as you don't kick people.

I love to vote dissmiss ppl being rude/pulling dps/ pushing everyone before the last boss... specially in WoD, if ur hurry: DONT play, go and take care of ur stuff and play later. KICK Leroyyyyyyyyy!

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Originally Posted by Lavelios

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I've been playing this since the beginning and I've never been vote kicked before. As long as you do your job and don't troll or do stupid stuff and refuse to listen to advice you should be fine.

I was in a duo party with my son I was DPS. Phone rang, I said sec then went and answered the phone. I was 2min:09sec according tot he call display. I came back and the other two players vote dismissed me and my son was out voted (4man dungeon). It was the only time I have ever been vote kicked. I was walking him through how to tank and we were in Tam-Tara. Then they got on his case cause he was standing there, unsure of what to do, so I used my keyboard to type "well you booted my partner, I'm out!" then he ditched so we could re-queue.

Would that be considered an unjust vote dismiss?

I was never kicked from DF party. You are doing something really wrong to people kick you. I saw a lot of wrong things in those dungeons runs, but none of them were enough to kick somebody from the pary. You should revise your playstyle.

I have never been kicked from a party, but I don't doubt that it's possible to be kicked unfairly.

Just as it's possible to have a troll in the group that needs to be kicked out, it's possible for a group of people to collectively troll someone by kicking them for illegitimate reasons.

But it's unavoidable. Changing the system to somehow prevent people from being troll kicked, would also serve in making it harder to dismiss someone that needs to be removed from the group because of attitude, skill level, or afk.

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Originally Posted by Aerowaffle

I have never been kicked from a party, but I don't doubt that it's possible to be kicked unfairly.

Just as it's possible to have a troll in the group that needs to be kicked out, it's possible for a group of people to collectively troll someone by kicking them for illegitimate reasons.

But it's unavoidable. Changing the system to somehow prevent people from being troll kicked, would also serve in making it harder to dismiss someone that needs to be removed from the group because of attitude, skill level, or afk.

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Thank you. I wish more people would see it this way rather than immediately saying "It's impossible for vote kick to be abused, must be you who is the problem"

I've stated why I've been kicked several times in this thread already, sad that people are still saying this even knowing from my examples and the examples of others that it can be, and is abused :/

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Originally Posted by Adire

Thank you. I wish more people would see it this way rather than immediately saying "It's impossible for vote kick to be abused, must be you who is the problem"

I've stated why I've been kicked several times in this thread already, sad that people are still saying this even knowing from my examples and the examples of others that it can be, and is abused :/

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You got kicked one time it can happen by abuse or trolling, you get kicked 2 times, yeah, must be trolls again.

You got kicked constantly. Yes, there is something wrong with your playstyle or atitude.

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Originally Posted by KaedrianLiang

....Majority of players are illogical in both play and life...

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Logical or not, the majority of players do not abuse the vote kick and do not vote kick on every dungeon run. The odds of encountering the vote kick is like less than 1 in 500.

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Originally Posted by KaedrianLiang

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The Vote to kick feature is being abused more than its legitimately benefiting anyone.
...

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That is an unproven claim. Vote kick abuse does occur, but threat of vote kick has at least worked as a strong disincentive for the trolls to make trouble in the dungeons. The fact that 99.9% of the runs do NOT invoke the vote kick and people are not held up by AFK trolls and such is a good demonstration that it is working well.

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Originally Posted by KaedrianLiang

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Voting is not a right, its a responsibility.

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Voting is a RIGHT and also a responsibility and players needs to excercise that right responsibly and logically.

It is no badge of pride to never been vote kicked nor is it a scarlet letter of shame to be vote kicked. People staying silent are being complicit to the abuse instead of standing up and calling out the trolls. On the flip side the OP sounds like someone looking for fight and being confrontational all the time, that will invariably lead to people responding with the vote kick.

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

You got kicked one time it can happen by abuse or trolling, you get kicked 2 times, yeah, must be trolls again.

You got kicked constantly. Yes, there is something wrong with your playstyle or atitude.

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As I've said before, I've only gotten kicked a few times, however I'm not naive. I know there will always be someone who experiences it more than I do, and I know how it feels. Even being kicked rarely by 2 trolls is too much, hence why I've proposed a solution to this problem that should have been a feature of vote kick already. If it was already implemented as it should have been from the start, I would be able to say I've never been kicked. It's a strive for improvement of the feature that benefits everyone who is in the right.

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Originally Posted by Adire

Can't speak for the OP, but I'll state it again, I've never done anything wrong when I've been kicked.

Unless complaining to the CNJ in Halatali who was provoking mobs off me, or trying to prevent the healer in DD from being kicked because he wanted to complete the dungeon is wrong. I'm not a poor player either. And no. I did not do anything to warrant either action against me. When I joined the Halatali, he immediately started provoking. I dealt with it for at least half the time I was there without saying anything, hoping he'd stop on his own actually. Maybe that's why their first tank was mysteriously gone...dared to speak up against their griefing and paid for it.

Don't see anything wrong that Kaedrian did in their long list of reasons they've been kicked either.

If 2 people are in a premade and a disagreement or situation happens that they think you should be kicked for, you're going to be kicked regardless of whether or not you're right or wrong, and kicked without a majority vote at that. This is a problem.

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You say you never did anything wrong ... I'll add that you may not be aware of.

It could just be you are abrasive in your manor of speaking and you may not realise it, the fact of the matter is if you mention to someone in open chat they are playing their class/job wrong or disagree in an overt way it may come across as picking on them and that may get you kicked.

I have seen many attempt at trying to educate ignorant players back fire, especially when they have FC members with them, so sometimes its just better to put up and get on with it.

Worth mentioning if you are also a DPS you are fairly expendable so easier to kick also.

I didn't do anything wrong. I was silent upon joining until I eventually got tired of the CNJ provoking mobs off me, asked why he was doing it, he said someone else was doing it, we moved on, he kept doing it, he ran ahead and pulled a large group, I let them chase him around while the ARC healed me instead of him healing me, then I pulled the mobs off him, we killed them, and I was kicked right before the final boss.

Do you see anything I did to deserve a kick? I don't see how I could have been much more passive than I was, actually :/. Silently dealing with abuse for most of the dungeon, then asking him why he was doing it only for him to blame someone else and actually step up his griefing...

The healer in DD did nothing wrong either in my opinion. He simply wanted to finish the dungeon he queued for, while the two dps did not just because they queued for the wrong thing, and wrongly used vote kick to get what they wanted since vote abandon would have failed due to me and the healer voting no. Them using the fact that the healer could not vote no for the votekick against himself to boot him and therefore have a majority to vote abandon is as wrong as it gets and is abuse of a badly designed feature. I fail to see how the healer or myself did anything wrong, at all.

I saw someone vote kick another player in WoD because they were another BLM. The BLM that initiated clearly said it was because he didnt want someone to take his loot if it dropped. Is that abuse?

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

I saw someone vote kick another player in WoD because they were another BLM. The BLM that initiated clearly said it was because he didnt want someone to take his loot if it dropped. Is that abuse?

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You can report players like that.

Some people might debate about it, but as far as I'm concerned, it is. Pretty sure "they're going to take my loot" isn't one of the 4 reasons listed on the vote kick list.

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Originally Posted by Adire

Some people might debate about it, but as far as I'm concerned, it is. Pretty sure "they're going to take my loot" isn't one of the 4 reasons listed on the vote kick list.

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The GMs have outright said that reasons for kicking someone do not have to fall into those 4 categories.

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Originally Posted by Chevrefoil

My personal opinion that if SE doesn't enforce abusive kicks, then each time you initiate a kick, you should incur a penalty -- whether the kick was legitimate or not. That penalty adds a timer onto when you can next kick someone in a dungeon and increases with each penalty incurred, so eventually, someone who repeatedly kicks will never be able to kick. That timer would decrease over time as long as you don't kick people.

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I think you do get a penalty for initiating a vote kick.

The penalty is that you can't initiate another vote kick for 4 hours. Now I think the penalty is only "set" if the kick was successful. I've not ever initiated a vote kick myself so I don't know, but I've heard others talk about it.

Heck there was even a thread on here a while back (3-4 months ish) that was wanting a change to the system where when a player was kicked, that they could not join back up with that group for that dungeon. So there must me a limit it place that stops people from continuously kicking the same player over and over.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

The GMs have outright said that reasons for kicking someone do not have to fall into those 4 categories.

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Mind posting your source? I really hope this is not correct. Where are their standards for determining if something is vote kick abuse or not if these reasons are valued so lowly? Any reason other than these, with the exception of maybe a player's skill holding the others back from completing an instance, is getting dangerously close to immoral kicking imo. If they don't have standards, then that's pretty disorganized and seems like it would often cause no punishment to be done.

Players should at least be forced to fill out a form to show their reasoning for their kick if the other reasons are not the reason for the kick. Documentation is important, and such a thing would help determine if the kickers are lying or force them to post their reason, whether it's good or not being left up to the GM to decide.

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

I saw someone vote kick another player in WoD because they were another BLM. The BLM that initiated clearly said it was because he didnt want someone to take his loot if it dropped. Is that abuse?

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What happened out of curiosity, I hope the poor guy wasn't kicked.

It's cases like that where the BLM that initiated should have been put to vote as well to see if he got to stay after being a dickhead.

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Originally Posted by Adire

Mind posting your source? I really hope this is not correct. Where are their standards for determining if something is vote kick abuse or not if these reasons are valued so lowly? Any reason other than these, with the exception of maybe a player's skill holding the others back from completing an instance, is getting dangerously close to immoral kicking imo. If they don't have standards, then that's pretty disorganized and seems like it would often cause no punishment to be done.

Players should at least be forced to fill out a form to show their reasoning for their kick if the other reasons are not the reason for the kick. Documentation is important, and such a thing would help determine if the kickers are lying or force them to post their reason, whether it's good or not being left up to the GM to decide.

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Originally Posted by Hikoko

http://s14.directupload.net/images/140813/zbgultir.jpg
http://s7.directupload.net/images/140813/h299ln6g.jpg

To me this sounds like everything someone has to say is "(s)he had a different playstyle" when kicking for whatever reason.

People who join a duty as partly groups can kick whoever they want without a real danger of facing any kind of punishment.

You want that Syrcus Tower item, but the random player with the same class might need on it in case it drops? -> "Sorry, we dont like how you play" and kicked before the bossfight starts.


And just to clear things up, the reason I was kicked for had nothing to do with "different playstyles", the GM just put it in that category...

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Originally Posted by Enkrateia

Greetings!

To begin, I have removed several posts commenting negatively about the company or the service itself, as well as a side discussion about the use of spell checking. Those suggestions have been heard, but take away from the concerns in this thread, which is a criticism of policy and confusion resulting from a message sent by a GM.

I have escalated several of the concerns with the messaging to the appropriate group for review and ways to improve their messaging to prevent confusion like this.

However, there is one topic in this thread that seems to be an underlying point of contention: reasons for dismissal that are not strictly "AFK", "Offline", "Harassment", or "Cheating". I would like to address this.

The response from the GM touched on this, although it was missed due to the focus on the first part of that sentence. The reasons for dismissal are not all encompassing, which means that there may be valid reasons for dismissal outside of those four examples. Good examples of this that have been provided in this thread are the refusal to fulfill one's job function. Because of this, it is possible that the reasons provided for dismissal may be found to be accurate if they are used against you. As well, the feelings one may have about the reasons may differ from the feelings of those who voted to dismiss. For example, cultural differences in language may have one person using language they find fairly benign while another person takes great offense to it.

Because of these subjective discrepancies, the final decision on if a violation of the use of the vote dismiss feature is left to a GM after an investigation. In general, abuse of the vote dismiss feature is considered to be a grief tactics violation, which falls under section 3.2 in the Final Fantasy XIV User Agreement. However, it is only after a GM investigation that it can be determined to be a violation of the rules. If you feel that the vote dismiss feature has been abused, please do report it to the GMs through the Help Desk in game, and we will investigate.

LGM Enkrateia

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Originally Posted by Enkrateia

This does leave us with 2 possible options.

Option 1: We only consider reasons for dismissal that are specifically stated to be an abuse of the vote dismiss feature. On the plus side, this does provide a clear and definitive set of guidelines for the use of the feature. On the downside, it is limited by the creativity of customers to find ways of disrupting a run outside of what is listed. Otherwise, the list of possible violations will be too extensive to be used efficiently or will be too vague to provide a definitive set of guidelines.

Option 2: Commonly reported reasons for dismissal are listed, although the tool can be used to dismiss anyone for causing a disruption to the duty. On the plus side, the feature can be used to remove disruptions and increase the chances that the duty can be completed. On the downside, it means that there is not one definitive list for reference on when the use of the feature is justified.

Neither option actively prevents abuse of the feature. Abuse of the feature is prevented due to account actions taken by GMs after an investigation to encourage customers who do misuse the feature to discontinue that behaviour. Currently, option 2 is what is currently in place, since a GM needs to investigate either way, and allows the GM to consider new types of disruptive behaviour that arise instead of waiting for a change to the tool while keeping the tool interface easy to navigate and use.

I think what I may not be clarifying in my replies is that this allows for a broader scope to the use of the tool than just one stated example (not fulfilling job duties). It's never just "one more reason"; the possible reasons for proper use of the tool are limited only bt the creativity of those looking to disrupt duties. Once we list something there, some new way of disrupting runs is bound to arise, and this allows customers to try to make sure runs go smoothly while still allowing for GMs to consider if the feature itself was used in a proper manner.

LGM Enkrateia

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FWIW it does sound like kicking someone to avoid loot competition would fall under 'grief tactics' but these things are difficult to prove and I'm not sure the GMs would, or even could, do anything.

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Originally Posted by Wobi

remember the attitude you bring in with you is contagious. If you have a chip on your shoulder it will likely spread to others and once a small mistake or disagreement occurs people are already on the defensive. Never forget it's just a game guys, take it easy and be happy, you might just make someones day.

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This is so very true. I try to be positive all the time in dungeons. Everyone needs a chance to learn so mistakes are ok. I pretty much have only played PLD so far and I ran into a situation last night on Garuda Extreme where some guys were being very critical of other players. Once they pointed my way just told them I won't argue about it because we have more important things to do. Lol Keep up the positivity!

Well, thanks for posting this. I hope the GM who said players are allowed to kick for different playstyles was mistaken...if not, that severely diminishes my confidence that fairness will be delivered to everyone to the best of their abilities. Unless the different playstyle is causing the duty to fail or is causing everyone else a headache and the player is unwilling to adjust, it should never warrant a vote kick.

Anyways, they should definitely implement the form thing I suggested, or something similar. It would greatly assist them in figuring out the logic behind the kick if there is any, and help them decide if it was justified. And if people lie, GMs can review chat logs or whatever they currently do to help them decide.

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Originally Posted by Adire

Well, thanks for posting this. I hope the GM who said players are allowed to kick for different playstyles was mistaken...

Anyways, they should definitely implement the form thing I suggested, or something similar.

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Enkrateia is the lead GM and from what I understand, pretty much the final say in this kind of thing. (Not that I agree with it... but, for better or worse, it's pretty well established)

So many players go about their day to day for months and months never really getting kicked unless in extenuating circumstances or absurdly rarely. Then there are players who are constantly kicked for "no reason".

If you are routinely getting kicked while a great many people are virtually never kicked, then the only common denominator the frequently kicked camp, is you.

Most people can get along just fine without kicks. If you cant, then it's probably you.

The only times ive be been kicked were when I was involving myself in arguments with the party. I may think they are unjustified because I was "right" but all I have to do is take a step back and see that by participating in drumming up drama I got myself into trouble. Similarly the only times I've witness vote kicks that were successful (not for being afk) were when the subject was generally on some tirade, argumentative or otherwise just needing an attitude check.

no drama no kicks. If you are paired with complete strangers and they routinely make the same decision about you (kick you) then it's you. Thousands of anonymous strangers all over the world didn't have a conference to black list you. They all see what you present them with.

If complete strangers regularly kick you, it's you.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

If complete strangers regularly kick you, it's you.

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This is the heart of it really.

If it's just happened once or twice... happens, move on.

My husband was vote kicked on his final nexus key item in qarn hm, right before the boss. He was on blm, and he and the party had a dispute on how the sabotender should be killed. As a blm, he was used to cluster aoe'ing adds down, however they chose to kite and had trouble tabbing to the guardia, vs having no adds. It took a few tries but they eventually killed it. When they arrived at the boss's gate they kicked him. It was messed up. He's a great blm and long time player, and didnt deserve this treatment. Vote kick is quite a slap in the face, and can happen to even the good people.

Yep. And whether it happens often to you for no reason, or rarely to you for no reason, it's still wrong and still points to a problem. The minority has rights too. I know it's easy to be suspicious of people who encounter it frequently as possibly being a problematic person, but stranger things have happened than a nice person being bullied repeatedly. People need to be strongly encouraged to think twice before kicking someone. Only SE can do that, and it seems judging by GM responses quoted a few posts ago, that they do not seem to be too concerned with doing that.

Harsh punishment for serious abuse of an important feature, thorough but fair enforcement and investigation, a form to fill out if the reason for the kick is not listed, and making the person being voted against an automatic No vote are what is needed. Will it eliminate this problem? No. But it will help it greatly, make the GMs' jobs easier, and increase the chances of everyone getting justice.

There is the oddball occasion. It hapoens. But if it is happening frequently, (day after day. Month after month) it's you. Period. When complete strangers treat you the same way every day for months with negative reactions, you are acting in a manner against social norms.

There is no way to 100% prevent all abuse of a system. It was added because of extreme player abuse (players would do cm runs back when that was tome farming and stay in cut scene for an entire run afk and we could do NOTHING about it except carry dead weight as an example.) Abuse was extremely common and pervasive in most all content. Vote kick has virtually eliminated that problem, but itself is subject to abuse.

No system is immune to abuse. Give players no power and we are helplessly plagued by trolls (old system). Give players power and the trolls can turn to the tool to abuse. No computer system can gauge a players intent in using a tool so unless a gm is hired to babysit every instance on the server, some authority is left to players.

they can't add extreme punishments (kicked players get no lock9uts) because then it's abusable. But if players are given no power, the inability to act ruins normal play (pre vote kick Era issues).

In order to have the authority to deal with trolls ourselves, we also deal with abuse of that system. The occasional unwarranted kick is the price we pay to squelch real problems like afks and trolls with our own votekick. So yes, we do just need to "deal with it". That's the unfortunate price we pay for removing the greater hindrance of pre vote kick era idiocy.

Minority rights (in this case) is unfortunate collateral damage, but ultimately falls into the deal with it category because the good vote kick has created is immensely more important than the occasional abuse.

Tldr: this is why we can't have nice things.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

snip!

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To be fair, I think pretty much every time someone in an LS/my FC hits 50 and tries to watch CSs in the story dungeons, they get kicked. To me, that's far uglier than an oddball kick here and there that most people seem to argue against.

For the most part I do agree with you, though.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

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That is bad and wrongful kicking. It also proves there are people playing the game, in decent numbers, who will kick for terrible reasons. It's the same concept. It's even worse in 4 mans when the person being voted against cannot rely on anyone to help save them. I wonder if GMs consider that a legit kick though? Someone who is watching cut scenes is playing differently from someone who is speedrunning after all.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

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I'm not advocating removal of the vote kick feature though. I'm advocating revision of it and wondering why, at the least, people getting voted against weren't automatically counted as No votes from the beginning when the feature was first implemented. I do agree, though, if it's happening day after day after day, more often than it's not happening, then the person it's happening to is likely at fault.

I have one particular friend who is a real sweetheart though, and she's somewhat new to the game though she's gotten skilled pretty quickly. She tells me of abuse and kicking that happens to her at least once almost every week. And almost every time, it's from 2 people. Had she been counted as a No, and had the players been scared to kick her for a bad reason, she would be having a much better experience with the game than she's had so far and would likely have had 0 kicks.

I've only been kicked a few times since playing, but I can say I would have not been kicked a single time if the same thing was done. We should always strive to improve things.

No thanks.. vote kick working as intended. Pre-vote kick I had people going afk at the start of dungeons on a weekly basis. After vote-kick I've been abusively kicked only a handful of times. I'd prefer the later since it's affected me significantly less, just my opinion. Get rid of vote kick and prepare for the multiple people going AFK in 24 mans because they only want a specific piece of loot. I know it already happens but it would be even worse without vote kick I assure you.

There's already a limit of having a 4hr CD on initiating vote kicking to reduce the abuse. The system is not perfect - there are abuses but to me is the lesser evil compared to the pre-vote kick era - where people just join to AFK on you, and you see them nearly every single CM runs. Sometimes more than 1 player in the same run.

I don't know what else you can do, SE claims they do investigate abuse reports - how much manpower and money a MMO is willing to put into a case where it seems a small portion of the players are affected? I don't know about too many MMOs, but at least here the GM will come talk to you and ask you for more information. I played AION and TERA and all you get is a shitty automated response for harassment and cheating/hacking complaints.

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Originally Posted by Chihaya

I don't know what else you can do, SE claims they do investigate abuse reports - how much manpower and money a MMO is willing to put into a case where it seems a small portion of the players are affected?

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Not that much. See the posts I quoted on the previous page... the cost of validating every vote kick would be prohibitive. Like you and other posts say, what we have now is the "least evil" of the options. Remove it and we get tons of AFK abuse, among other things.

Adire: Maybe there are some ways to improve it but thoroughly read Enkrateia's post. Enforcing narrowly defined categories means people just circumvent it, etc. And... Sorry, but to be blunt, your friend is doing something to get kicked that often. Without running with her it can be hard to pick up on what it might be, though.

Ideally there would be more review of potential abuse, but... it is what it is, I guess.

Well, IMO, there's no reason they can't make the simple improvement of making the person being kicked a No vote. When I was kicked from Halatali, the CNJ and his friend were in it as a premade, and the other person did not want me kicked, yet I got kicked because I had no rights as the person being voted against.

In the DD, I voted no and the healer got kicked anyways. In my experience, it's almost always 2 people. If anyone can think of a good reason why the person being kicked should have no say, and therefore another person having no say, I'd love to hear it.

Also, that's why I said a form should be used that the person initiating the vote should be forced to fill out if one of the listed reasons is not why they initiated the kick. That would solve that problem. IMO, vote kick abuse can be one of the most serious forms of abuse in the game. Blacklist can't help it, if you've contributed to the dungeon and get kicked, all you get is wasted time of your life. Devoting a respectable amount of resources to this would not be a bad decision to me.

We are paying customers, it's quite disappointing and insulting when we're told "sorry, can't help you" so quickly and easily by the people we're paying right after we've been abused and kicked with the very same feature that was implemented to be used to kick the abusers.

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Originally Posted by Synestra

Those are not real tanks just dps abusing instant ques on their alt.

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No, they aren't anything. Real DPS invest the extra ~5-10 minutes of queue in Expert roulette knowing that their competence will make the dungeon faster by at least 15 minutes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adire

Stuff!

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This I can really get behind. Yes, it means someone can troll the group if they bring in a friend to make them unkickable, but they can do that now--just bring in a friend and kick people.

Personally, I'd prefer to see the balance shifted just slightly the other way--takes 2 people to click "yes" for a kick to happen, so the balance shifts slightly more towards not kicking as a default.

Probably won't happen but here's to hoping.