there's a lot of sensitive people in this game

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Originally Posted by SendoTakeshi

Holy is one of the best healing spells.

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I also use Holy if a stun is needed in Stone Vigil Hard and Snowcloak.

I had something similar happen to someone I was running with so I can do an Animus dungeon.

We had a WHM, DRG and a new MRD and pretty much it wasn't so bad past the fact the MRD didn't use Overpower to really capture the mods and NO, this is NOT the MRD who is the issue here.

Basically a question got popped around in that assumed the differences between Healers of SCH and WHM and basically how SCH can go autopilot in any dungeon before 30 because of Selene...and then the DRG states that SCH's are better than WHM's which SOMEHOW the WHM gets offended and lets the DRG die at the boss for no reason than "jokes". I didn't really decide to say nothing because I had to wait 30 min+ for this Animus dungeon, but you cannot be serious in actually carrying through with that level of threat over simple class differences...

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You are free to believe that you don't have to DPS as a healer all you want, but you are going to be considered bad at your job just as I would consider a tank that doesn't bother to get out of AEs or face enemies away from the rest of the party a bad tank regardless of how good they are at holding hate.

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A WHM/SCH that doesn't do anything but heal is a horrible healer.

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It seems some of you are making very generalized statements about the skill of healers because they're not dpsing, i'm questioning your opinion and this is why.

If your main is a whm in all ironworks, and you haven't even started final coil, you need not comment on the skill of healers you're not even on the same level with.

If you're a tank in all ironworks and noct, haven't stepped foot in fcob and are calling out healers because they aren't dps'ing to your standards in a dungeon, just stop please.

To be honest, I've given up entirely on speaking at all in dungeons. If I try to be friendly and give people advice and tips I'm just completely ignored, and when I finally get tired of wiping and try to tell them what to do to avoid dieing I get hostility or trolling. These are the same people who, from npcs have taken being called useless garbage and piles of chocobo shit, but from players get hostile the second someone even mentions they could possibly be doing even the slightest thing better.

I give up, I hope you all only ever do the bare minimum and get partied with other people who only ever do the bare minimum.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

I give up, I hope you all only ever do the bare minimum and get partied with other people who only ever do the bare minimum.

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https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/i...LgU4Zp5ReDfMEN\

Where would we be as humans if all we did was bare minimum? Chin up and press on.

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Originally Posted by ChiiSoSeriouz

It seems some of you are making very generalized statements about the skill of healers because they're not dpsing, i'm questioning your opinion and this is why.

If your main is a whm in all ironworks, and you haven't even started final coil, you need not comment on the skill of healers you're not even on the same level with.

If you're a tank in all ironworks and noct, haven't stepped foot in fcob and are calling out healers because they aren't dps'ing to your standards in a dungeon, just stop please.

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So, you shouldn't be able to comment on the basic fundamental principles of the game you should know like the back of your hand long before you reach coil until you actually reach coil? Got it.

This game is not coil, and your comment reeks of elitism.

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Originally Posted by Ladyaceous

This game is not coil, and your comment reeks of elitism.

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New emote for Miqo'te /beeotch slap with tail.

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Originally Posted by JaydeDancer

Healers should not be expected to DPS. They are healers, they heal.

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So you just skipped through the entire conjurer questline and ignored everything it tried to teach you?

Hopefully this isnt gonna turn into a "should healers dps" thread.

I agree with op, I'm surprised people are even arguing... They must be the sensitive little flowers you speak off

I haven't done Final Coil but to judge people based on being geared up with tome gear is fallacious. People may have cleared it several times and just had RNG against them, so they gear up with poetics until RNG is kind and gives them FCoB drops.

I find that the game is much more fun when I don't sit in judgement of the other players and think about how much they suck all the time. That said...

"Oh my god, that healer isn't DPSing and making the dungeon shorter/living up to what I have determined is his 'potential'! THIS IS AN OUTRAGE! Everyone should meet my exceptions. I'm going to SAY something!" --> "Holy?"

Of course, then the other peoples' expectations come into play:

"Oh, that guy's one of those typical jerks and is going to start haranguing people even though we're winning and no one is dead. This is always how it starts. We're just not 'fast enough' for him. Let's kick him before it gets worse." ---> "You have been kicked from the dungeon."


Too many people seem to think that their expectations are the only ones that matter. There are two sets of expectations when you're in a group: Yours, and not yours. Each individual thinking their expectations are the most important is probably the reason why, if the only thing said was "Holy?", the OP was kicked. Perhaps it's time to consider that. I would also be willing to bet that if the people in that party came to the forums and saw this thread, they'd think "we were right to have kicked him. Look at him proving how insufferable he would have been for the rest of the dungeon. He just can't tolerate other people not living up to his oh-so-important standards."

That may not necessarily be very nice of them, but there's no doubt that experience has taught them to hedge their bets rather than wait for the inevitable in-party rant from the one guy who just isn't getting through the dungeon fast enough.

A kick would be warranted if you'd demanded they use Holy, but certainly not for asking if they were going to. (They may have just missed the question mark, so mis-interpreted the message.) As mentioned, it helps a Bard to know whether they're going to need Foe's or not, so asking someone's intentions is perfectly valid.

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Originally Posted by Tyrn

So you just skipped through the entire conjurer questline and ignored everything it tried to teach you?

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This. I mean seriously, the whole questline was about a girl who believed healing was what all Conjurers should do and was basically told otherwise.

I understand that some people just don't have the ability to multi-task, but don't act like Squenix never made it obvious that this was the point they was getting across.

Because she was pulling energy from her life-force instead of nature.

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Originally Posted by Alex

Because she was pulling energy from her life-force instead of nature.

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No, that wasn't it. The Conjurer Headmaster specifically states she didn't know the basics EITHER. Which meant learning the Conjurer's use of nature in their abilities(i.e. To attack). We ONLY knew of her true issue I believe at lvl 15-20.

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Originally Posted by Xhominid

No, that wasn't it. The Conjurer Headmaster specifically states she didn't know the basics EITHER. Which meant learning the Conjurer's use of nature in their abilities(i.e. To attack). We ONLY knew of her true issue I believe at lvl 15-20.

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we get the explaination at lvl 15 toward the end of the quest.

It's a shame that there are enough jerks in the community for these people to believe it was better to kick you without engaging in any sort of dialogue...

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Originally Posted by Xhominid

This. I mean seriously, the whole questline was about a girl who believed healing was what all Conjurers should do and was basically told otherwise.

I understand that some people just don't have the ability to multi-task, but don't act like Squenix never made it obvious that this was the point they was getting across.

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The conjurer questline was about healing the land and working with the elements. Slyphie was killing herself just healing without doing anything else.

So the fundamental for a Healer in this game is they have to do all the Healing and at the same time, also do DPS jobs??? So to those who thinks this is a very basic of becoming a Healer, tell me this why not these have became standard to be a good Tank or a good DPS, fail to do so will result in being marked as bad,aka HORRIBLE:

1/Do you expect the Tank to hold agro and at the same time, dealing over 400 DPS?
2/Do you expect DPSer to deal 400+ DPS whilst keeping themselves alive and heal themselves?

If your answers are yes to the above questions, then our discussion ends here.
If your answers are no or maybe, then on what grounds do you think it is a fundamental,aka: standard, for a Healer to multi-tasking, managing their healing duty as well as DPS job? Life is sure of unfairness and bitches, is it not?

I don't argue with you that Healer should have contribution in DPS, however, by thinking that is compulsory or they will be marked HORRIBLE, is just wrong and stupid.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

The conjurer questline was about healing the land and working with the elements. Slyphie was killing herself just healing without doing anything else.

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And they tell you about the elements with attack spells. Read inbetween what you are talking about. Hell, the issue is twofold, it's not that Sylphie's problems, but the fact that healing is the ONLY thing that matters.

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Originally Posted by LionKing

So the fundamental for a Healer in this game is they have to do all the Healing and at the same time, also do DPS jobs??? So to those who thinks this is a very basic of becoming a Healer, tell me this why not these have became standard to be a good Tank or a good DPS, fail to do so will result in being marked as bad,aka HORRIBLE:

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Great Job on missing what people is saying...

No one is saying healers should do huge damage or any other nonsense like that(congrats on that huge level of assumptions), people are saying WHMs and SCHs should do damage WHEN IT IS APPROPRIATE!

Or are you gonna tell me that WHM's should stand around and do nothing while Ultima Weapon/Odin charges up their ultimate attack and the only way to stop it is to kill them before they kill you? Or when there's such a lul in times to heal, you can't pop off even a single Aero/Stone/Holy? I found plenty of times to do these even without putting on CS and I still helped out in the DPS department.

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1/Do you expect the Tank to hold agro and at the same time, dealing over 400 DPS?
2/Do you expect DPSer to deal 400+ DPS whilst keeping themselves alive and heal themselves?

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The first one is ridiculous, the second one if the boss is only capable of AOEs and the tank does their job, DPS should rarely need heals past room hitting spells.

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I don't argue with you that Healer should have contribution in DPS, however, by thinking that is compulsory or they will be marked HORRIBLE, is just wrong and stupid.

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Okay, so BLM's shouldn't NEED to get Quelling Strikes right? Or DPS don't need Invigorate or B4B or Mage classes don't need Swiftcast either? Or WAR getting Provoke? There's a difference between having them and not having them and to not use something to it's full advantage isn't horrible class usage, but it's pretty damn crappy.

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Originally Posted by Xhominid

And they tell you about the elements with attack spells. Read inbetween what you are talking about. Hell, the issue is twofold, it's not that Sylphie's problems, but the fact that healing is the ONLY thing that matters.

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You're reading inbetween too many lines.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

The conjurer questline was about healing the land and working with the elements. Slyphie was killing herself just healing without doing anything else.

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no, she was killing herself because she was using her own life energy to heal others with really powerful spells, and not taking from the elements around her. it wasn't because she was just healing. pretty sure the end result would have been the same if she just used attacks.

even if they disabled cleric stance, holy would be worth it for the stuns and the damage.

bad healers are bad.

So you said "WHEN IT IS APPROPRIATE", do you mean they do have a choice whether they should do it or they should not do it, right, at their own discretion? However, it does not seem like a case to me with most of people here. Someone said it is FUNDAMENTAL, BASICS, EXPECTATION for a Healer to do a DPS,or else they are HORRIBLE Healer. Those words don't really match with the "When it is appropriate", do they not?

You mentioned something about having tools and not use it to its fully potential ..., this opinion is also applied to every other job out there, not just Healer. How many times you see a Paladin casting Heals or Stoneskin on themselves to ease some stress on Healing when the Healer clearly having problem to keep them up? How many time you see BLM use Manaward/Manawall to minimize the Dams they takes to ease the stress of healing them or to purposely build up the LB by taking the Dams whilst Manawall is up? (See Nael for example ). How many times you see DPS not using their Secondwind to heal themselves a bit to prevent death while the Healer could not keep up with the Heals? (T13 healing example ) and I can list many many other example that could portrait someone has tools given to them but they won't make full use of such tools.

Yet every time, anyone die for XYZ reasons, Healer is ALWAYS the first to be blamed. While I don't disregard this pointing finger but this is just too unfairness. Is it not the whole point of Healer should DPS, so the run can go smoother and quicker,in turns make everyone's life easier? Then how about before demanding them or expecting them to make your life easier, why not do your best and make their life easier of healing you, by fully utilizing tools in your disposal?

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Originally Posted by Ladyaceous

So, you shouldn't be able to comment on the basic fundamental principles of the game you should know like the back of your hand long before you reach coil until you actually reach coil? Got it.

This game is not coil, and your comment reeks of elitism.

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Elitism so what?

If anyone were to comment on what i should or should not be doing as a healer, then follow that with "horrible" and "bad" while your gear and experience is low on the matter, you will be called out on it. I'll dps if feel like it, it's by no means mandatory. An exceptional healer is responsible for the pt safety and does so at an outstanding level through adversity. High tier fights separate the average from the exceptional.

please lets put this back on topic, this is not a "healer should DPS" or "healer shouldn't DPS" thread.
many minds on both sides of that argument aren't going to change. better to just drop it.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g5...areOfGreed.jpg

wow this got big O.o. stupid daily limit. not quite finished reading yet, on page 9 but i'll comment on some things i've read, sorry if i don't cover your point.

there were a few saying that just saying "holy?" is a bit rude and i should have elaborated more. we were in the middle of a pull though and i'm not the fasted typer in the world. i'm alright as far as typing speeds go but if i stopped to write out a long sentence going over in detail everything i meant by "holy?" (which was honestly would have been could you use holy please? :](probably would have been seen as condescending because of the smiley lol.)) i would have ruined any point in writing at all since i would have been myself not attacking with anything but auto. nobody writes long full detailed sentences when you're in the middle of a pull. i'm sorry if you think that's rude but i think it'd be ruder to stop everything completely.

for the main way the thread went lol: should a healer dps? well i mean i already said i won't push a healer to dps and i mean it but i'll never give them a com(yes i'm a weirdo that thinks coms should matter a bit :b). for those saying "a healer is a healer not a damage dealer" well that kind of doesn't fit in this game honestly. you have more damage skills than i do support but i'm expected to play songs. you can try to say "but bard is a support class" started as an archer and got tricked into a very half assed support class lol. either way it's what's included in the class and playing those songs correctly and playing them when they need to be played gets me quite a few coms. holy, aero and the other damage dealing skills are included in white mages and whatever skills a scholar has(to be honest i usually get bummed when i see a scholar, great dps for a healing class but no holy for crowds :,[ ). i could totally play the "i only have 4 songs, 3 that does anything useful so i'm actually a dps class not a support class" and by the logic some people are using i'd be justified. meh different strokes and play as you're most comfortable but i believe in fully pushing yourself and not playing just for yourself. you've got at least three other people with you in a run so why waste their time if you don't have to?

and lastly for this comment: doesn't posting this make you just as sensitive as the people you're talking about? hmmmm i'd say you do have a point i guess lol. at some level everybody including animals are overly sensitive but it's how you go about living with it that makes a difference. also it's human nature to share annoying, bad or dumbfounded moments/experiences with others.

p.s you can say fuck on this forum? O.o. damn daily limited and character limits >:[

Oh joy, another thread that has devolved into a healer-DPSing controversy. Lawd help me.

I main WHM, and I run dungeons with it and DPS mostly because it annoys me to see other healers standing around with so much downtime. But I don't go off on them because as long as I'm alive, they've fulfilled their basic, primary function. As boring as that must be, it's fulfilled, anyway.

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Originally Posted by Naliee

I thought I regonized you from somewhere!
please don't do runs with your fc mates

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haha this should have gone in there as an example of my bad luck with fc groups :b

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Originally Posted by LionKing

So you said "WHEN IT IS APPROPRIATE", do you mean they do have a choice whether they should do it or they should not do it, right, at their own discretion? However, it does not seem like a case to me with most of people here. Someone said it is FUNDAMENTAL, BASICS, EXPECTATION for a Healer to do a DPS,or else they are HORRIBLE Healer. Those words don't really match with the "When it is appropriate", do they not?

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So because there's some people giving you mixed signals, that defeat my point? It really doesn't. For example:
You are running Aurum Vale and your tank pulls 3+ enemies, believing you can DPS them at all is foolish and can easily lead to a wipe, that is not appropriate, that's stupid.

If you are running the beginning 3 dungeons, past the bosses, you should virtually be DPS till the tank hits 1/3rd HP. That's appropriate for the situation lest the tank pulls far more adds than 3 there as well.

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You mentioned something about having tools and not use it to its fully potential ..., this opinion is also applied to every other job out there, not just Healer.

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And again, how does this help your point? If anything, you are PROVING healers need to DPS when it's appropriate, as I exactly stated. While I find curing as a PLD pointless, some believe it's as effective as SS'ing yourself. Otherwise you are limiting yourself by not using your toolkit to it's maximum efficiency.

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Yet every time, anyone die for XYZ reasons, Healer is ALWAYS the first to be blamed.

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Well congrats, you met crappy players. Because like the Tank won't get similar blame for nonsense or whatever. How does this help your point?

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While I don't disregard this pointing finger but this is just too unfairness. Is it not the whole point of Healer should DPS, so the run can go smoother and quicker,in turns make everyone's life easier? Then how about before demanding them or expecting them to make your life easier, why not do your best and make their life easier of healing you, by fully utilizing tools in your disposal?

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So basically, you want to cover the healers not using their toolkit...and saying the DPS and Tanks need to utilize theirs'...
That's so damn stupid. If you have the ability to utilize your toolkit, DO SO. Stop acting as if the other players cannot that gives you a pass to be lazy, it doesn't. I have found plenty of openings as a WHM to do so, so that doesn't work.

I did not try to disregard your opinion. I simply pointed out your hole in assumption that "Everybody expect the healer to do DPS when it is appropriate". It is far from the truth. People's expectation is for all the Healer to DPS, while ignoring the fact that they may not be comfortable in doing so, just because there are Healers out there who can do better in such said situation while they fail to see that not everyone is at the same skill level. Whether to DPS or not, we DO NOT expect, force them to perform such duties but rather let them, the Healers make the decision themselves. My point is "Sure there is room for improvement but to tell them it is fundamental or a have-to do for a Healer to DPS is wrong and stupid"

No I do not try to cover for Healer for not using your tool kits whilst asking the Tank and the DPS to fully utilizing their tools kits, I simply said why people expect the healer to go out of their boundary while did not expect the same from Tank and DPS? I just hate someone has to work 120% extra harder just because someone else fail to fully use what they have in the disposal.

"You fulfil your duties as Tank and DPS, I do my job as Healer. That is the deal. My job is to heal, not to DPS, just so you guys can be half afk whilst doing your jobs. Whether to go extra mile or not is up to me. It is my decision to make and you can't tell me I fail at my job just because I refuse to go that extra miles."

Clearly the healer felt harassed. You were annoyed he was not optimizing the run as he should and expressed your annoyance. Maybe he is a bad healer, maybe he just felt lazy. Maybe his tank friend prefers he not dps. Maybe he thought kicking you over your rude comment was hilarious. In any case, you should remember real people play when you are choosing to formulate your statements to them on what your expectations are next time.

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Originally Posted by ChiiSoSeriouz

Elitism so what?

If anyone were to comment on what i should or should not be doing as a healer, then follow that with "horrible" and "bad" while your gear and experience is low on the matter, you will be called out on it. I'll dps if feel like it, it's by no means mandatory. An exceptional healer is responsible for the pt safety and does so at an outstanding level through adversity. High tier fights separate the average from the exceptional.

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Elitism so what huh? People shouldn't comment on healers dpsing if they don't have coil drops huh?

Well, if you had to get to coil to understand that healers can and should dps when appropriate and not "when they feel like it" then you are most likely an average coil healer and not an exceptional coil healer. Gear or no gear. That makes you a beta elitist which is worse than the real McCoys. Based on the two statements you've made, I'd say it's likely you got carried....and I'm "calling you out on it". "I'll dps in coil when I feel like it"...just lol.

It's not rocket science people. No one is saying healers should carelessly sacrifice healing for dps and cc. If a healer stands around with a full mana bar not dpsing at all when a tank hardly needs heals they are not playing well.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

New emote for Miqo'te /beeotch slap with tail.

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Originally Posted by Ladyaceous

Elitism so what huh? People shouldn't comment on healers dpsing if they don't have coil drops huh?

Well, if you had to get to coil to understand that healers can and should dps when appropriate and not "when they feel like it" then you are most likely an average coil healer and not an exceptional coil healer. Gear or no gear. That makes you a beta elitist which is worse than the real McCoys. Based on the two statements you've made, I'd say it's likely you got carried....and I'm "calling you out on it". "I'll dps in coil when I feel like it"...just lol.

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Meanwhile he's talking about higher level gear when every healer piece 100 or over, including dungeon drops, has ACC on it. Now why would Accuracy be on healer gear when it does nothing for cures I wonder, I mean it's literally impossible for a cure to miss.

Lazy players will find any justification to be lazy, the gear has a stat only useful for DPS :
http://xivdb.com/?search/!filters/Ik...RBVEVEXzA6Ig==

The Conjurer npc explicitly tells you you should be doing more than healing :

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"Adventurers such as yourself oft stand upon the front lines of battle. Owing to this, you are like to find yourself in many situations wherein a capacity for healing would be advantageous. Mind you, there is more to conjury than that.

By harnessing the power of earth, wind, and water, conjurers are also capable of weaving spells that wreak havoc.

In terms of sheer destructive power, conjury may pale in comparison to thaumaturgy, but its capacity to defend one against aggression more than compensates for this relative shortcoming.

More than simple healers, yet not true dealers of destruction, conjurers realize their full potential when they employ their powers in support of others. This, my dear adventurer, is what it means to be one of us."

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And the entirety of conjurer's questline is about using more than just cures, with lore sprinkled in for reasoning.

But I have a feeling this "final coil or gtfo" guy is one of these anyways :

http://i.imgur.com/CKd0JpP.png

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

http://i.imgur.com/CKd0JpP.png

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that picture never gets old for me lol

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Originally Posted by Ladyaceous

Elitism so what huh? People shouldn't comment on healers dpsing if they don't have coil drops huh?

Well, if you had to get to coil to understand that healers can and should dps when appropriate and not "when they feel like it" then you are most likely an average coil healer and not an exceptional coil healer. Gear or no gear. That makes you a beta elitist which is worse than the real McCoys. Based on the two statements you've made, I'd say it's likely you got carried....and I'm "calling you out on it". "I'll dps in coil when I feel like it"...just lol.
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That's a lot of assuming there about me, all of which completely false ofc, but let's just say while i may have a machiavellian view on things in this game, i can back it up for real and anyone whos played with me knows it. Anyways ...

One thing I'm learning lately is that unless you went into a duty with 5 of your friends outnumbering everyone you don't know, don't even attempt to point out something about another player and how they're playing.



I've been polite, and I've been an arsehole, and the result ends up the same every time for me. I get kicked, and someone else gets to go about their day playing sub-optimally. The best excuse for this though is the "doing it's job alright" argument. I have to give credit to Yahtzee for coining this term as far as I've ever been aware.
Is the tank holding enmity on everything? Then he/she's doing it's job alright.
Is the DPS doing ANY damage at all? Then he/she's doing it's job alright.
Is the healer keeping everyone alive? Then he/she's doing it's job alright.

People time and again use this as a justification for a Bard never singing songs when asked to no matter how many times people ask or request it, or a DRG not keeping up Heavy Thrust at all times and just doing the standard Thrust combo over and over, or a Tank going ham with enmity at the start of a pull, then AFK'ing as the DPS and others kill everything while they stand there and eat all AoEs and so forth.
Truth be told, it's likely not going to change. From my experiences, I've asked nicely and spoken politely, and other time's I've said "So are you going to play more effectively and stop wasting our time or not?" and so on. My only knowledge that I've come away from this with is that it's better to say nothing at all unless you want to try and argue with the people defending those practices, which is me a lot of the times when I have given up caring about finishing the dungeon and instead want to interrogate the people in the party and question them on why they tolerate something, like my most recent Qarn HM run, which was very entertaining for me!

Shrug.. People make arguments about how people should play in a role playing game.. Isnt like the game should be played in one own's aim in one own's time and in one own's tactic which should be applicable in a team whether it's necessary or not? For all i know dps can heal too.. Dont like it? Vote kick or vote abandon, or leave or maybe stay quite.. Why need to go into such length.. Shrug..
People are being over sensitive.. So true..