People selling runs, why not talking about it ?

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Originally Posted by Lavieh

Mind telling me why its "dsatasteful". Is crafting items and selling them disatasteful? Is gathering items and selling them disatasteful? Is paying for a service in real life distasteful?

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Because this isn't a service from one player (or generally group in this case) to another player. The person paying is contributing just as much as the person being paid. Rather than being like selling an item, a more accurate analogy would be trading an item for another item of equal value, and then on top of that charging the player you traded with for having facilitated the trade to take place. If it's an even trade, then you shouldn't have to charge on top of that.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Because this isn't a service from one player (or generally group in this case) to another player. The person paying is contributing just as much as the person being paid. Rather than being like selling an item, a more accurate analogy would be trading an item for another item of equal value, and then on top of that charging the player you traded with for having facilitated the trade to take place. If it's an even trade, then you shouldn't have to charge on top of that.

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If you're paying for a carry, then this isn't necessarily true. A lot of people insist you die in the beginning to reduce the chance of a wipe.

If you're paying and you contribute actively to the fight, then I agree with you 100%.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Right, cause anyone that has money is obviously a gil buyer. >.>

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I've seen enough players buy clears who simply don't play enough to have anywhere near that kind of gil to know they bought it. I'm not saying everyone who buys clears is a gil buyer. I know there are some avid crafters who do nothing but that all day but again as a crafter you still have to put a lot of time in to make that gil. When people who barely play more than a few hours a week suddenly afford several million gil for a clear though it's pretty obvious they didn't make that gil themselves.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Because this isn't a service from one player (or generally group in this case) to another player. The person paying is contributing just as much as the person being paid. Rather than being like selling an item, a more accurate analogy would be trading an item for another item of equal value, and then on top of that charging the player you traded with for having facilitated the trade to take place. If it's an even trade, then you shouldn't have to charge on top of that.

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Not necessarily. When my static carries someone completely clueless about the mechanics, we ask them to die at the beginning (mostly this gets done in T5). Most carry parties I see for T9 are either "eat the wall at the beginning" or "learn till 47% then eat the wall". There's a lot less chance of a wipe that way.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

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Most of the time they don't actually contribute, they typically watch. In the event that they do participate they are just paying for a successful run + Drops. Even in real life, people sometimes buy services and they themselves contribute but they pay to have things done right. Selling runs is very akin to real life practices. There is literally nothing "Disatasteful" about it. People who are of that line of thought don't really understand someones reasoning or purpose for doing so, which I find rather naive.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Not necessarily. When my static carries someone completely clueless about the mechanics, we ask them to die at the beginning (mostly this gets done in T5). Most carry parties I see for T9 are either "eat the wall at the beginning" or "learn till 47% then eat the wall". There's a lot less chance of a wipe that way.

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Well, if they're not taking part, then they're not getting the run they paid for. Better to wipe than to fail to complete the very thing you're being paid to complete.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Well, if they're not taking part, then they're not getting the run they paid for. Better to wipe than to fail to complete the very thing you're being paid to complete.

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they're paid to get one guy to the end of the dungeon. Nothing more. I do not see "teaching" parties on PF. Only carries.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Well, if they're not taking part, then they're not getting the run they paid for. Better to wipe than to fail to complete the very thing you're being paid to complete.

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I laughed pretty hard when I read this. What exactly is stopping this person from clearing it with a group using PF or FC -- WHen you pay for a run, you are paying for a clear not for us to teach you.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Well, if they're not taking part, then they're not getting the run they paid for. Better to wipe than to fail to complete the very thing you're being paid to complete.

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If I was paying to actively participate in a run, I'd expect a pretty hefty discount if I knew what I was doing.

If I was paying for a group to learn the fight, I'd have to reconsider my intelligence because I can wipe for free in the Duty Finder. I think you misunderstand why people pay for these runs.

Serious question though - how many groups offer discounts to experienced players in a particular fight?

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Well, if they're not taking part, then they're not getting the run they paid for. Better to wipe than to fail to complete the very thing you're being paid to complete.

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I think you are missing the concept of the reason WHY people pay for runs in the first place. Though I don't pay for runs, I'd rather fail numerous times and better my fight experience each time than to pay for a carry. There are people that do not want to learn, or perhaps not enough time to dedicate to learning, or just plain impatient/lazy in general, and they just want the clear (for boasting/items/achievements/advancement/many other reasons). This IS technically a service from a team to one or two player(s), which is fine IMO. RMT on the other hand is ToS violation, and in the event someone sells runs for cash, then there's a ban coming their way, but in-game currency/items, there's nothing wrong with this in mine or SE's eye.

People form PF's alot for "learning," "clearing," and "farming," but I can say I have yet to see any that says "teaching."

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Originally Posted by Alberel

I've seen enough players buy clears who simply don't play enough to have anywhere near that kind of gil to know they bought it. I'm not saying everyone who buys clears is a gil buyer. I know there are some avid crafters who do nothing but that all day but again as a crafter you still have to put a lot of time in to make that gil. When people who barely play more than a few hours a week suddenly afford several million gil for a clear though it's pretty obvious they didn't make that gil themselves.

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I agree with you.

Have people that sold runs collected gil that was bought by RMT methods? Absolutely! Are all paid carries financed by RMT made funds? Nope.

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Originally Posted by Violyre

Please quote this section of the ToS. I'm curious.

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He is prob referring to letting someone you pay log on to youraccount and beat it for you, which is against the TOS.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

T8 and T9 though are selling well, as most pugs are utterly unable to handle the mechanics. About 5m for T8 and 9m for T9. The cheapest I saw for T9 was 6m without loot from a FC wanting to gear their members fast but missing a member due to family reasons

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the with loot bit is always funny as the seller has no way of stopping the buyer pressing need or greed

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Originally Posted by Violyre

People like you anger me. Just because I can afford stuff does not make me a gil buyer. Do you know how often I get accused of it? I got a tell or two once after I bought the new artisan gear and a couple offhands all on one day, and fully melded to my needs. When does "oh hey, he might actually make mobey from crafting" turn into "effing gil buyer?" I also had a few tells after an auction event on my server that I spent less than 3M on.

Quit making assumptions that all people with lots of gil are buyers. I think most people who make legitimately hate gil buyers just as much.

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People that don't bother to read the thread anger me too. Quit posting rants and read a few more pages where you'll see my elaboration on that point.

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Originally Posted by Konata

the with loot bit is always funny as the seller has no way of stopping the buyer pressing need or greed

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the "without loot" usually refers to group wanting you to go in a specific job to get things done. Technically, they lock you out of the job they want to gear, so that you can't loot on it. As you said, there is no way to prevent someone from rolling except by making them specifically agree to do so in the chat. If you do, you have a ban-worthy proof that said player has breached the terms.

That was a thing for greed parties in Balmung. Make people specifically agree on loot rules, so that they aren't tempted to "missclick" the gear they want but never called

If people can sell it, and there are people willing to buy it, well then it's going to happen.

http://rs285.pbsrc.com/albums/ll57/m...alism.png~c200

Deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

I think you are missing the concept of the reason WHY people pay for runs in the first place.

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That's entirely possible, as I've never paid for a run myself, but the reason I see most often mentioned (as well as the only reason I can envision ever having), is because of the difficulty in finding 7 other players to do the run with you.

No matter how much you yourself might learn in a failed DF run, if your next DF is with 7 other players who haven't learned it, you won't progress much further. DF is with different players every time, so you can't really get learning progression in the overall group like you can with a static. For any content difficult enough that you need 7 other players who know it, and if you yourself don't know 7 other such players, it makes some sense to seek out groups who know it and will run it with you, just because that's your best chance at being able to do the entire run all the way through.

Assuming that's the most common reason (as it's certainly one of the most common reasons) to pay for a run, the only way the person paying gets what they paid for is if they get to participate in the entire run. That's what they're paying for the chance to do.

Sounds like mafia activity or something.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

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As a seller, We do often get people that ask to participate. I have even had people offer to pay us to teach them certain fights (Not advertised btw). It all depends on what they want/ need.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Well, if they're not taking part, then they're not getting the run they paid for. Better to wipe than to fail to complete the very thing you're being paid to complete.

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Um, lol? When people offer to pay for a clear, that's what they're paying for - a clear.

They aren't paying for us to teach them the mechanics.

If people want to learn the mechanics, I'll typically jump into clear/learning parties for free.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Assuming that's the most common reason (as it's certainly one of the most common reasons) to pay for a run, the only way the person paying gets what they paid for is if they get to participate in the entire run. That's what they're paying for the chance to do.

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That makes no sense at all. Why pay seven people to teach you when you can just get into a learning party in PF?

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

That makes no sense at all. Why pay seven people to teach you when you can just get into a learning party in PF?

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Because learning from others that HAVE the clear experience is so much more effective, perhaps?

Learning parties on PF are just that, usually every player on that specific team has fight exp but no clear... Very rarely will you see a person who has a clear be on a learning team unless they are someone in the learning PF's FC, on their friend's list, or a very helpful random person...

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

Because learning from others that HAVE the clear experience is so much more effective, perhaps?

Learning parties on PF are just that, usually every player on that specific team has fight exp but no clear... Very rarely will you see a person who has a clear be on a learning team unless they are someone in the learning PF's FC, on their friend's list, or a very helpful random person...

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I guess? I don't see any point in paying someone to teach me when there's guides and youtube videos galore.

Honestly, I jump into learning/clear parties for things all the time. o.o

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

I guess? I don't see any point in paying someone to teach me when there's guides and youtube videos galore.

Honestly, I jump into learning/clear parties for things all the time. o.o

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You kinda answered the year old question of why people would pay in the first place. lol...

I don't and WON'T pay. I get the satisfaction in knowing I helped, participated, learned and beat the mechanics...

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

You kinda answered the year old question of why people would pay in the first place. lol...

I don't and WON'T pay. I get the satisfaction in knowing I helped, participated, learned and beat the mechanics...

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Oh, definitely. As frustrated as I've been with T9, I refuse to merc a win. I know I can beat it.

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Originally Posted by Crysten

Serious question though - how many groups offer discounts to experienced players in a particular fight?

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Back in the 2.0 days, Cactaur had a group that sold T-HM and offered you discounts for both staying alive and an additional discount if their own team members died. If your performance was giving them trouble, you'd be made to jump off on the second or third attempt. Sadly, that isn't a market norm any more because a lot of fights have very easy ways for your 8th to wipe the entire party, and it's very common for experienced players to buy wins so they can move on from the content or even find groups for it that will accept them in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Assuming that's the most common reason (as it's certainly one of the most common reasons) to pay for a run, the only way the person paying gets what they paid for is if they get to participate in the entire run. That's what they're paying for the chance to do.

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That makes no sense at all. Why pay seven people to teach you when you can just get into a learning party in PF?

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I'm not quite sure how teaching got into the discussion here. I suppose that would be another possible reason for seeking help with a run, but it's clearly unrelated to the reason I posted about.

Even if the person buying the run knows the fight better than anyone else on the server and is the best player in the group, they'd still need seven other people to run it with them. The issue I posted about was difficulty finding those other seven people, not any difficulty with their own part of it.

Now, realistically, the people who are having trouble finding groups and are limited to only as many runs as they can afford to pay for, are unlikely to get a chance to become the best on their server. But that doesn't indicate that needing a group is the same thing as needing training. Those are two completely different things (even if at times they might occur in combination).

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

I agree with you.

Have people that sold runs collected gil that was bought by RMT methods? Absolutely! Are all paid carries financed by RMT made funds? Nope.

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as an avid crafter who has paid for carries, I can say that although they may not be directly financed through RMT, RMT funds are likely laundered through us. Who pays for the items we craft? I'm sure we have all bought shards from an RMT shard seller as well.

can anyone really tell just what percentage of the in-game economy has passed through the RMT circle? I'm guessing its probably around 80%, mainly because I cant think of anyone getting rich purely from "green" gil sources.

I think buying runs is pretty silly, might as well just not play the game. That said, I wouldn't mind people buying runs if it wasn't for the feeling I get that the gil for buying it mostly comes from RMT. So if my hunch is right, the more runs being sold means the more RMT being used around, means more spam and cheating to live with for me :(

I honestly do not care about undercutting and such, reason: i am strongly against FC'S that sell runs in the first place

Im HIGHLY HIGHLY AGAINST paid carries, coming from a endgame player that has content on farm up to T10 it has torn a actual friendship between me an someone I've known since I started this game late January 2014. He told me basically to F off an he went to buy RMT gil an bought a T9 carry instead of letting me get people to HELP him for the clear for FREE (just want to state he was laughing at my face over psn an he is 36 I'm 23). I have HELPED I've NEVER carried anyone, I don't buy or sell runs if I cant clear the content by myself with 7 other smart people I would rather un-sub from the game then to have my reputation tarnished.

I'm also tired of the unskilled players joining my party..........stop catching other people up to content where I'm at so they can join MY party an get a CLEAR when they don't deserve it in the 1st place. I don't mind helping people but there's just a certain percentage of people that deserve to be there.

also if you want to see the story there are plenty of ways to do it: Shareplay it, Youtube it, or even read about it on reddit etc.* don't bring other people down its unfair for them to learn a fight just so you can wipe everyone or stay dead the whole time its rude, go learn the fight just like everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Cyllia

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How can you be against someone's personal choice? Sounds rather selfish. Just because your friend spent RMT money on a T9 clear doesn't mean everyone does and in the end you aren't a very good friend if you let that get in between your friendship, honestly that seems rather pathetic.

As for point about inexperienced people joining T10 Groups, T10 is a lot easier then T9 so their lack of experience doing T9 could have little to no-impact on how they perform and T10 and on the same token the "bad" players are not always the ones that buy runs. Often times FC's do free carries for members or they can just get extremely lucky with a DF group and they may not even know the fight at all. You also have a choice to NOT play with them if you so desire, you could also form a static group of players or join a LS with respectable members who pug FCoB. There are definitely a lot of ways you can not get into a situation where you play with those players.

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Originally Posted by Lavieh

How can you be against someone's personal choice? Sounds rather selfish. Just because your friend spent RMT money on a T9 clear doesn't mean everyone does and in the end you aren't a very good friend if you let that get in between your friendship, honestly that seems rather pathetic.

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Getting funds from Gil Sellers is Cheating. That is what is pathetic. Those accounts should be perma banned. They make the entire economy worthless for those who actually work to earn gil. Secondly, buying a carry accomplishes what exactly? I don't understand that mentality. They didn't earn it and it's a farce really to say I've cleared such and such and really didn't do that.

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Originally Posted by Lavieh

How can you be against someone's personal choice? Sounds rather selfish. Just because your friend spent RMT money on a T9 clear doesn't meaneveryone does and in the end you aren't a very good friend if you let that get in between your friendship, honestly that seems rather pathetic.

As for point about inexperienced people joining T10 Groups, T10 is a lot easier then T9 so their lack of experience doing T9 could have little to no-impact on how they perform and T10 and on the same token the "bad" players are not always the ones that buy runs. Often times FC's do free carries for members or they can just get extremely lucky with a DF group and they may not even know the fight at all. You also have a choice to NOT play with them if you so desire, you could also form a static group of players or join a LS with respectable members who pug FCoB. There are definitely a lot of ways you can not get into a situation where you play with those players.

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yea your right I'm not a very good friend when he was the one who originally said, I'm done I'm finally done an laughing at my face as he was getting carried in T9.......*Logic* kinda sad I TAUGHT him the mechanics in the 1st place, placement of boss,meteors,golemns,heaven falls patterns, radius of mercydia add.........O so im the bad person who took MY time with someone I wanted to see to progress just for him to pay for a clear later. Yea dude makes a lot of sense, its not selfish it's the point that if you deserve to be there it shows in gameplay, if you don't then well.... you deserve to be stuck where you are in content period you don't deserve to be in whatever current patch coil,raid,primal etc.* end of story.

If you have to buy a clear from a merc you should just stop saying anything. Your value of opnion of anything is negated at the fact you support people who cant play the game properly so they have to get carried....because they cant pay attention for a 8-12min fight that most boss's are including coil

Yea it's there choice to get carried? like are you even hearing yourself...? no seriously, give me one good reason they have a *choice* get a clear like everyone else ya know legit? play the game correctly or don't play it all or do us all a favor an jus click un-sub its right there on the front page of the log-in page of mog station

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

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who is exactly "working" for their gils ? All the gils you have actually come from 3 sources :
=> quests, limited ressource.
=> dungeons and roulettes, which doesn't generate a huge amount, though the sum is steadily increasing
=> RMT gils, which are in fact coming from the 1st two sources but the players never earned them by themselves


Right now, maybe 60-70% of the gils in the market flow are coming from RMT at one point or an other. Bought some elemental shards ? You funded RMT. You're a super rich crafter ? most of your gil is probably coming from RMT at start, before being introduced in the market by buyers. etc etc...

Actually, the ones working the most to earn gils might very well be the RMT themselves...

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Originally Posted by Stihllodeing

RMTs write programs that create counterfeit gil? I thought they just botted their way to wealth.

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Never said the first but I did say the latter. They got their gils with the means the game provided (with extra botting with sugar on top)

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Originally Posted by tocsin

as an avid crafter who has paid for carries, I can say that although they may not be directly financed through RMT, RMT funds are likely laundered through us. Who pays for the items we craft? I'm sure we have all bought shards from an RMT shard seller as well.

can anyone really tell just what percentage of the in-game economy has passed through the RMT circle? I'm guessing its probably around 80%, mainly because I cant think of anyone getting rich purely from "green" gil sources.

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I have my suspicions with a few on my server, but I choose not to say anything, because I do not know for sure. There are more obvious one that have not been on as frequently as I have been (I'm on everyday and for a long period of time) and when I see them sporting the 110 crafted gear on day two (and I have checked the MB history to see they bought the gear with gil, especially after lying to me that your "friend" crafted the gear for you), when I know that they play less than half the time I do, I become rather suspicious AND to add injury to insult they don't even have a single craft class at a decent level to bring in a 5th of what the ilvl 110 gear had cost them.

There are several names I see that really hussle on the MB and I give those folks props and hope that I get to that level as I have taken a recent interest in crafting. I like the "me" time where I can concentrate on my craft and make a little gil from items others are seeking. Sure the RNG will make me want to spit lava at my screen, but that's beside the point.

I know that there are legit crafters out there and I commend them. I also know there are people that exploit things in-game that have an indirect effect on those legit crafters and the rest of the non-RMT community. To each their own, but when violators are caught, they're caught. Then they'll sing their shoulda, coulda, woulda's and flame SE on the forums because they got banned for something they violated cause they really never read the ToS in the first place.

I actually thought about something just this morning. What if SE incorporated a gil bonus with the already 100 tomes, but even apply it on the low level stuff? IE 50k gil bonus, when helping out a first timer in the pre-50 dungeons, primals HM (25k), EX and post 50 dungeons 75-100k, raids 100-150k gil bonus. I know it's not a REALLY good fleshed out example, but I just threw it out there as I am sure whoever reads it would understand what i'm trying to propose, with the exception of a few I've encountered on the forums with really poor reading comprehension...

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

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RMTs write programs that create counterfeit gil? I thought they just botted their way to wealth.

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Originally Posted by Stihllodeing

RMTs write programs that create counterfeit gil? I thought they just botted their way to wealth.

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Botting on a multitude of characters 24/7 has the potential to basically create gil.

There's a bunch of BLM bots on my server that queue for dungeons together.

I have no idea what they actually run. @_@

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Botting on a multitude of characters 24/7 has the potential to basically create gil.

There's a bunch of BLM bots on my server that queue for dungeons together.

I have no idea what they actually run. @_@

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easy guildhests? even if its littel gil , multiply that x4 and 24/7

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Botting on a multitude of characters 24/7 has the potential to basically create gil.

There's a bunch of BLM bots on my server that queue for dungeons together.

I have no idea what they actually run. @_@

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I see the same three to four BLM's on my sever that stand around the Aetheryte crystal in the same position in Ul'dah all the fucking time and I know they are RMT bots. They have not moved from that position since I've been playing unless they are offline or queued into a dungeon. They are all still geared in their ilvl 55 BLM relic gear. Saw them last night. All Japanese names.

I have no issue with people selling clears but if there is anyone on here that is on Jenova And needs a clear, I will help you for free. I will clear you for free thru any ex primal or t1 - t8 just to get the sol bonus.

There is very little clear selling on my server specifically because there are people willing to help one another. Ultimately it is mutually beneficial.

At the end of the day if you are against people selling clears you can do something about it by helping others clear the content being sold and kill the demand for the service.

As far as reporting for undercutting that's just dumb.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

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If you think people are buying runs to "earn" clears, you obviously haven't sold that much. I would say about 90% of the people that buy runs buy them for the following:

- They don't want to compete for drops - Probably the number one reason
- They don't enjoy content walls - Ramuh is a prime example of this.
- They want to enjoy how they play the game without added stress - Turn 9 Win is a great example. There are plenty of people who are absolutely content with clearing 3 out the 4 turns available for coil as they become puggable but the last turn is typically incredibly hard to pug.


Of course buying gil, in a sense is cheating, but they still work for the RL money that they spend. So they had to earn it in some manor. But I agree, RMT should be booted, it is just the mentality towards people who buy runs that is incredibly naive to me.