Stoneskin II

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Originally Posted by ExponentialDecay

White mage's raise ability already works this way, albeit with a trait. Whether it's easy or not doesn't really matter.

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It's probably less about the "out of combat" and more about the "Area of Effect", I feel. I know they already have "out of combat" tag based on, as you said, Raise. Is there any ability in the game that changes an ability from being single target to AoE?

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Is there any ability in the game that changes an ability from being single target to AoE?

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BLM sleep becomes AoE with a trait, I believe.

personally I think they should just give SCH their own version of SS and SSII with no stat modifier like CNJ/WHM gets make them ACN skills that are very weak and virtually useless to ACN/SMN but very useful to SCH, or even better take 2 of the ACN skills and make them turn into skills that are the equivelent of SS and SSII

oh and to answer someone that asked for Adlo and Succor, unfortunately no job skills are cross at all. I would be okay with it if they decided to make "Cross Job" skills

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Originally Posted by Riepah

BLM sleep becomes AoE with a trait, I believe.

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Yes, not to mention 1.0 had an aoe toggle.

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Originally Posted by Adeline

When I saw this thread I thought it was "Thank you for SS 2 thread", but to be sorely disapointed that its a QQ thread. No offense, but WHMs have been the majority of players that have had to buff Stoneskins in raids, and we finally just got our glory by not having to manually click everyone.

Let us enjoy this new blesssing in our life, kthx

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Please don't needlessly antagonize others. Scholars getting stoneskin 2 will not make your stoneskin any worse or less wanted.

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Originally Posted by Bebekurenai

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Pretty sure you're overestimating how much succor shields for. Remember that succor shields aren't doubled when critted like Adlo shields are. They shield for the EXACT same amount that they heal for. I just succored to test values. At i116 I'm succoring for about 485 non crit and 750 critted. On most classes, it's about 10% of their HP. Also it lasts a mere 30 seconds. I'm not sure about most people, but usually my succor doesn't even last long enough to mitigate the first bit of damage the party takes because most bosses don't cast AoE damage 30 seconds into the fight. That's where SS comes in and mitigates some damage.

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Originally Posted by ExponentialDecay

Yes, not to mention 1.0 had an aoe toggle.

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I kinda wonder how much of the 1.0 code is still in the existing 2.0 code or if they did 2.0 from scratch.

Though the sleep trait is definitely turning it from single target to AoE.

I guess now it depends on how it's coded. If what the trait does it replaces the spell with a new spell that has a yalm range while of the appropriate level instead of "toggling" to AoE sleep while of the appropriate level, it might be difficult to shift that kinda code to AoE Stoneskin. Otherwise, S-E's being lazy with their coding if the Sleep can toggle.

Who's to say without being able to see the source code though, heh.

http://i.imgur.com/1OWyC0B.jpg

When I saw this thread I thought it was "Thank you for SS 2 thread", but to be sorely disapointed that its a QQ thread. No offense, but WHMs have been the majority of players that have had to buff Stoneskins in raids, and we finally just got our glory by not having to manually click everyone.

Let us enjoy this new blesssing in our life, kthx

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Originally Posted by Adeline

Let us enjoy this new blesssing in our life, kthx

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And somehow you wouldn't be able to enjoy it if other people got to enjoy it as well?

Again, I have to say, it's amazing how many people miss the point of the thread @.@

inb4 someone tells me to stop repeating myself~!

Here's the thing between Succor and Stoneskin II. Succor only lasts 30 seconds but it's protection is vastly superior, especially with a properly geared Scholar (i.e. crit-stacked like a boss). Further, Succor heals as it protects. Stoneskin II doesn't heal and only offers a fixed level of protection depending on I want to say the conjurer's HP, though it could be the target's HP. Either way, it's a fixed amount. Stoneskin alone barely lasts a few seconds once combat starts, and that's with the boosting trait. Stoneskin II can't be reapplied during combat but Succor can be spammed all day long. Scholar has a marked advantage here, why would any Scholar waste a cross-class slot on Stoneskin II? I know I wouldn't.

Succor is an analogue to medica, not stoneskin. Succor does not get the doubled shield strength bonus that adloquium gets. Stoneskin applies a(n) 10%/18% shield based on the targets maximum health.

Yet SCH's Protect doesn't have the Shell trait and seeing how a big chunk if not the majority of the damage in the game is magical based, they're already at a disadvantage there, so it still balances out. Again, SCH only want an AoE out of combat SS so it's faster to SS at the start before a pull. Besides Succor heals way less than a Medica so the Succor + the shield ends up being about what a Medica would do.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

Scholar has a marked advantage here, why would any Scholar waste a cross-class slot on Stoneskin II? I know I wouldn't.

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Because it sure beats Blizzard II or Surecast. What Succor does or doesn't do really has nothing to do with the matter at hand, though. Succor could heal for over 9000 and render everyone invulnerable for 0,5 seconds and it still wouldn't change anything about the point that's being made.

If it is finally officially deemed tedious enough to manually Stoneskin every single person before a fight to implement a new skill that functions as an easier, faster, more convenient method, why is this method reserved to WHMs only? It is true that WHMs are expected to be the ones who use Stoneskin in groups where they are present, but it is just as true that Scholars are expected to Stoneskin in groups where WHMs aren't present. Why is it that a SCH shouldn't deserve the same convenience of only pushing one button instead of 8, and only needing a quarter of the casting time?

I just find it funny that all the schs want this newly implemented spell...you all will prolly get it one day, but are immediately getting upset you're not getting it now.

You're basically a Stephen Colbert gif

http://i.imgur.com/lhjhbB9.gif

I don't care if you get it, hell I'm for it, but to make a thread about it, it's just idk...the scenarios where you all would be needing to mass spam Stoneskin are slim, other than grouping up during DF for ST/Primals/hella ez raids like Praetorium. I'm sorry you guys have to wait a little longer and manually click still, but like I said, you'll prolly get it...

Just not for another year like we did.

KEKE

Topic of the thread:

-WHMs got QoL change that gives them AoE Stoneskin w/ Graniteskin trait (QoL = Convinient)
-SCH requests a similar QoL change to all cross class Stoneskin for similar convenience (while maintaining the normal 10% of max HP shield)

This QoL change for WHM in no way shape or form impedes on a SCH's ability to heal.
Likewise, a QoL change for SCH to have AoE Stoneskin cross classed in no way shape or form impedes on a WHMs ability to heal

Is this QoL game breaking in general? No.
Would it be nice to have. Yes.

Aside from it being a programming issue potentially, why NOT allow it?

All I really see is people feeling their now SUPER SPECIAL that they have an AoE Stoneskin and don't want to share a QoL adjustment with their healing bretheren even though it wouldn't make or break anything in the game.

@.@ Like... seriously?!

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Originally Posted by ExponentialDecay

Succor is an analogue to medica, not stoneskin. Succor does not get the doubled shield strength bonus that adloquium gets. Stoneskin applies a(n) 10%/18% shield based on the targets maximum health.

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You still can't ignore Succor's healing. It's healing while it's protecting, and all during combat. If a conjurer wants to match that they have to cast a healing spell and Stoneskin. Can't cast Stoneskin II, cause there's combat. Out-of-combat there should be no urgency allowing all manner of spell to be cast, but as many have noted, "Ain't nobody got time fo'dat!" I fail to see how Stoneskin II short changes Scholars.

But you know what... why not. If you can get Stoneskin II, then I want Succor. It's only fair.

Seriously, that was my first issue with it. I'm a WHM and SCH so why can't I get the spell on both my healing classes?? Why so obviously discard that SCH actually does buff the party as well??

Hell, in Third coil, to help save time, I did ALL the SS on SCH because I could go back to full MP quicker than our WHM. Even when I was doing CT or ST, I still did my part and buffed the party. Just because some SCHs are lazy doesn't mean we shouldn't get it as a cross class ability.
And lemme tell you, a Stoneskin from a sch and a whm blows off in one hit so who really cares where it's coming from? Just give me the ability to buff just as much on sch.

Also, this doesn't help when you go double sch to things. It's my group's preferred farming team and it sucks that we still have to go the slower route.

Wanna know something funny though? It's quicker than ever to stoneskin an entire party and I STILL see WHM's not doing it before fights.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

But you know what... why not. If you can get Stoneskin II, then I want Succor. It's only fair.

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Also, no. Why? Because they are two different things. Stoneskin II doesn't heal at all. Succor isn't just our QOL buff. It's literally our only aoe heal.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

You still can't ignore Succor's healing. It's healing while it's protecting, and all during combat. If a conjurer wants to match that they have to cast a healing spell and Stoneskin. Can't cast Stoneskin II, cause there's combat. Out-of-combat there should be no urgency allowing all manner of spell to be cast, but as many have noted, "Ain't nobody got time fo'dat!" I fail to see how Stoneskin II short changes Scholars.

But you know what... why not. If you can get Stoneskin II, then I want Succor. It's only fair.

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Succor heals for less, to heal what you'd heal with a Medica you have to spam Succor. The shield evens out the healing you don't do by instead preventing damage. In stuff you want to have both Succor and SS to prevent damage, you'll want to have both a WHM and a SCH anyway, that stuff isn't the majority of the game's content.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

Since people here are so adamant that there is no need for SCH to Stoneskin a raid before a fight, I shall not Stoneskin a raid before a fight anymore when on SCH. Thank you for opening my eyes, forum people.

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Let the PLD do it ^^ Shields for the same.

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Originally Posted by Sagittarian

The cast time and mana cost are exactly twice what they are for SS.
And I still need swiftcast to get it off before someone pulls in Syrcus Tower.

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Incorrect, it is much cheaper as you have to multiply the cost of single Stoneskin by the number of people you are buffing.

I main SCH on my alt, and tbh, very rarely use SS on 4 peep anyways, fey illu+crit adlo on tank pre pull, for large pulls eye for an eye, gives me plenty of time to SC shadowflare, dot and bane, pop rouse and ruin spam a bit. Top up when needed.

WHMs are top for AE healing, SCH are top for single target and flexibility. So making AE SS WHM only, to me makes sense. Albeit, if they added for SCH I wouldn't object ;) Then again, I wouldnt miss it either if they don't.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

Also, no. Why? Because they are two different things. Stoneskin II doesn't heal at all. Succor isn't just our QOL buff. It's literally our only aoe heal.

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Fey Illumination+Rouse+Whispering Dawn+succor can quickly top up the party for AE plus the added shield from fey illu buffed Succor. Albeit not as good as Divine Seal+medica 2 or Cure 3. But WHMs biggest strength is Party AE heal anyways.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

You still can't ignore Succor's healing. It's healing while it's protecting, and all during combat. If a conjurer wants to match that they have to cast a healing spell and Stoneskin. Can't cast Stoneskin II, cause there's combat. Out-of-combat there should be no urgency allowing all manner of spell to be cast, but as many have noted, "Ain't nobody got time fo'dat!" I fail to see how Stoneskin II short changes Scholars.

But you know what... why not. If you can get Stoneskin II, then I want Succor. It's only fair.

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Nah, Succor is a 150 potency heal and 150 potency shield, effectively 300 potency. Medica is a 300 potency heal. Succor costs 399 to Medica's 372. If you're trying to recover damage then medica is clearly better. Succor is only mildly better in the case of preventing incoming damage, and even then not that great. Medica is outright a stronger skill than Succor.

It "shortchanges" us because it is a quality of life improvement. If scholars have no need for it then neither did white mages to begin with. There is no reason to not want scholars to have an aoe version of the stoneskin they can cast.

call it "stonesuccor"

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Let the PLD do it ^^ Shields for the same.

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Please let Paladin have Stoneskin II too then ^^" Not like we have many choices of cross-class skills anyway, I'd take it!

There's no reason not to give it to sch anyway, but I'd mind a whole lot less if I did ST or whatever with 4 whms and 2 schs and it didn't put the two schs together.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Aside from it being a programming issue potentially, why NOT allow it?

All I really see is people feeling their now SUPER SPECIAL that they have an AoE Stoneskin and don't want to share a QoL adjustment with their healing bretheren even though it wouldn't make or break anything in the game.

@.@ Like... seriously?!

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I definitely understand what you're saying, and definitely agree with you on several posts - though I'm sure many will still feel what they feel, regardless the point. D: I'mma abandon ship on the thread - you might want to do the same, because it's really not doing any good x_x /soothe
I think at this point, there's not much that can be said that will be listened to, from either side x_x


Though, I don't think it's so much as not wanting to share it (I wouldn't mind if SCH gets SSII - I'm a little surprised they didn't if it's a QoL - easier for everyone, and then this thread would never have happened *twitch*), but rather trying to put logic to reasoning vs sharing QoL + strong opinions + the initial aggressive tone of the thread (first post is easy to read as 'since we don't have it, then WHM shouldn't have it') is just not really helping anything. Anger begets anger, unfortunately :/

I kind of hope this thread just.... dies - just because of it's general toxicity towards each other that we seriously just do not need.

The last thing I'd want is to be paired up with either healer class (WHM or SCH) and have it come up with negative comments towards either class the second I or they start casting it.

To all scholars in this topic:

I am extremely curious, in 4 man or 8 man+2x Scholars, do you :
A) Protect + Adlo main tank + succor team = GOGOGOGO
B) Protect + Adlo main tank = GOGOGOGO
C) Protect + Adlo main tank + Succor Team + Stoneskin team = GOGOGO

If you answer A or B, then you do not need AoE stoneskin :).

Honestly outside of raids (which you should have both WHM and SCH, so this argument is moot), Stoneskin-ing everyone is like a "better than nothing" sorta thing.
So are you saying you scholars are willing to sacrifice a Cross Class slot for something even more subpar than a "better than nothing" sorta thing?

I'm not objecting nor agreeing SCHs should get SS2, but I am just very curious regarding my above question.

P/S: Unless of course SE is kind enough to give you Scholars "Mini-Stoneskin II" as your unique skill, then hey knock yourself out with Succor + Stoneskin, which makes it slightly superior to "better than nothing" sorta thing that WHMs have.

There's no reason to ever not stoneskin everyone. It lasts long enough that everyone is bound to make use of it, and it frees up a gcd that would otherwise go to healing the damage it blocked. Or better, improves survivability during a section of a fight that brings people dangerously close to death.

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Originally Posted by ExponentialDecay

There's no reason to ever not stoneskin everyone. It lasts long enough that everyone is bound to make use of it, and it frees up a gcd that would otherwise go to healing the damage it blocked. Or better, improves survivability during a section of a fight that brings people dangerously close to death.

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So you use 4 GCDs to save 1? Ok........

1 Succor is more effective than Stoneskin on the party, uses 1 GCD and a lot less mana.

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Originally Posted by Roris

Pretty much, it does seem like some people are making it a "WHM should be better because SCH smells bad" thing when they were made by SE themselves to complement each other.

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WHM is betterthan SCH, for somethings. Yet SCH are better than WHM too.

I do find SCH a lot more interesting to play due to their greater flexibility than WHM, also I do a little cheer inside when I get paired with a WAR in DF XD Dem 2k crit adlos ftw! So much easier to heal WAR with SCH than WHM (and in reverse for PLD).

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Originally Posted by Saseal

The last thing I'd want is to be paired up with either healer class (WHM or SCH) and have it come up with negative comments towards either class the second I or they start casting it.

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Pretty much, it does seem like some people are making it a "WHM should be better because SCH smells bad" thing when they were made by SE themselves to complement each other.

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

C) Protect + Adlo main tank + Succor Team + Stoneskin team = GOGOGO

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When the tank is patient enough, when someone is in a CS at the start or with buddies, always SS at the start, there's no reason not to and all SS2 for SCHs would do is make it faster like it already does for WHMs. I play both healers and I like both, though I'm better at SCH. I wouldn't mind giving up Aero for it, I'm sure whoever actually uses Blizzard 2 or Surecast wouldn't either.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

So you use 4 GCDs to save 1? Ok........

1 Succor is more effective than Stoneskin on the party, uses 1 GCD and a lot less mana.

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Don't be obtuse. GCD's before the pull and after the pull are of completely different value.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

What else are we gonna use it on? Surecast? SCHs are healers and should do their full preventative abilities when on a team. That means Stoneskins. Even WHMs do not feel like pushing the button eight times and SCHs shouldn't make them.

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Proper crossclass skills are: Stoneskin, Protect, Aero, Cleric Stance, Swiftcast.

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

To all scholars in this topic:

I am extremely curious, in 4 man or 8 man+2x Scholars, do you :
A) Protect + Adlo main tank + succor team = GOGOGOGO
B) Protect + Adlo main tank = GOGOGOGO
C) Protect + Adlo main tank + Succor Team + Stoneskin team = GOGOGO

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I do C in every instance, even when doing higher level raids. Just because some do not doesn't mean that I should let people go without proper buffs.

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

So are you saying you scholars are willing to sacrifice a Cross Class slot for something even more subpar than a "better than nothing" sorta thing?

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What else are we gonna use it on? Surecast? SCHs are healers and should do their full preventative abilities when on a team. That means Stoneskins. Even WHMs do not feel like pushing the button eight times and SCHs shouldn't make them.

I don't really care about SSII. Sch still > Whm.

Memory kinda hazy but if I'm not wrong Scholar currently has these for cross-classing:
1) Cure (lol)
2) Stoneskin (taken)
3) Protect (taken)
4) Aero (taken)
5) SwiftCast (taken)
6) Cleric Stance (taken)
7) SureCast
8) Bliz 2

Even if you don't like any of my taken CC skills, take a look at Surecast and Bliz 2:
I won't touch much upon surecast since it seems universally considered to be useless (but hey...when you're low life and a mob's smacking you and your swift cast is down, without surecast you'll have to pray your heal goes thru without being interrupted by said mob :)).

But what about Bliz2? Once you have bane-ed the crap out of everything, what else is there to do? Ruin is a 80 Potency ST skill, blizzard is a 50 Potency AoE skill, just hitting 2 adds with Bliz2 is considered a DPS increase over using ruin, does that not qualify a cross class slot for you?

you forgot the best cross-class skill, cleric stance. scholar has 5 good cross-class skills to take and none to replace

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Originally Posted by ExponentialDecay

you forgot the best cross-class skill, cleric stance. scholar has 5 good cross-class skills to take and none to replace

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hahaha was hoping nobody caught that, damn you ExponentialDecay ><.

So my original question still stands, IF SE really allows Scholars to cross class Stoneskin 2, are you guys willing to give up 1 of these CC skills?
Or are you then gonna complain "UHHH we have not enough CC slots, SE plz give us unique "Mini-Stoneskin 2 spell plz?".

My crystal ball says that will not be possible because:
During combat, Adlo >>>> SS (for SCH, not WHM) , nobody would use both adlo and SS in combat, thus for Scholars, their SS is mostly used OUTSIDE OF COMBAT.
If they were to get their very own "Mini-Stoneskin 2", this will make Stoneskin 1 completely useless to them, thus freeing up another CC slot for usage.

EDIT : Reading back what I typed, I think I've just answered myself, you can probably take away Stoneskin as CC skill and replace SS2 with it, so I wish you luck in your crusade in getting SS2 as CC skill for Scholar :)

This thread is depressing to say the least. SCH does not need or should not desire a useless crossclass skill as a 10% Stoneskin II would be. You can't even justify ever replacing Cleric Stance, Aero, Stoneskin, Swiftcast and Protect over something as trivial and useless as a 10% HP AoE non-combat Stoneskin. Try it, because you can't.

Well since cross class abilities are swappable, Aero when there's a WHM in the party, Stoneskin 2 when there isn't, problem solved.

Of course it could have been solved if they managed to bake the out of combat AoE into Stoneskin 1 itself, but hey, let's give them the benefit of doubt.

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Originally Posted by Roris

Well since cross class abilities are swappable, Aero when there's a WHM in the party, Stoneskin 2 when there isn't, problem solved.

Of course it could have been solved if they managed to bake the out of combat AoE into Stoneskin 1 itself, but hey, let's give them the benefit of doubt.

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I'm just going to assume this was simply a quick fix and they'll change how stoneskin works at a later date. Hopefully around when Heavensward drops.

@Roris

That'll only work for if you queue for any 8 mans with 2 healers/full party.

If you solo queue as a SCH, then you enter an instance and find yourself with 2 scholars, I think swapping your CC skills in an instance make those skills go on a long CD? (Not sure, been quite some time since I swap CCs around in instances).

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

During combat, Adlo >>>> SS, nobody would use both adlo and SS in combat, thus for Scholars, their SS is mostly used OUTSIDE OF COMBAT.

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I don't feel like getting into a huge debate over the validity of which cross class a single person prefers since I agree with Rori above...but...
As this is actually a thing for my group who goes double SCH for T9, you actually should Adloq/SS for Ravensbeak. Adloq + Swiftcast SS. And T10 for the Critical Rip.
Whm can't do everything. Or maybe I'm just too used to working double sch?
When we do it with a WHM, they still end up leaving the Stoneskin business to me for Mega-Flare. *shrugs*
So yeah, not really mostly used out of combat.

Ps. Though I honestly just think that it should have been Stoneskin with a trait. Out of combat, AOE. In combat, single-target. Frees up a hot key slot for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Saseal

I definitely understand what you're saying, and definitely agree with you on several posts - though I'm sure many will still feel what they feel, regardless the point. D: I'mma abandon ship on the thread - you might want to do the same, because it's really not doing any good x_x /soothe
I think at this point, there's not much that can be said that will be listened to, from either side x_x

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Yeah, I think so too. I imagine I'll get myself temp banned at some point if I keep running my mouth off as is, heh.

@Ophie-Mio

If you 2 x Scholar for raid content, of course SCH SS becomes extremely valuable :).
Oh and I should be clearer, the Adlo >>>>SS comment is for SCHs exclusively, not overall, but as you say if you double scholar, then yup SS becomes as valuable as Adlo for SCHs.

but that means you cannot cross class SS2 in exchange for SS unfortunately :(.
And if you're really willing to swap around your cross class skills every time your team composition is different....guess you deserve to use Stoneskin 2 :)