Exactly how much more do you expect us to pay?

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Originally Posted by Jynx

The rub of it is, traditionally that's why people pay a subscription fee.

Apparantly some people seem to think the subscription fee is just a key that unlocks the door and everything ontop of that should cost extra.

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My company pays about $13k for 11 months of a service contract on a SEM. We get unlimited calls for them to come out. It does not mean that $13k covers replacement items or repaired items. I still need to pay for hose replacements (expected to need to be replaced), air valves, etc. I see no reason why a subscription fee -has- to include everything even when warranties and service contracts do not.

If SE want to milk me sure I will tell you how lol

Put full set armor of FF7 Adv children cloud armor with his sword for dark knight and all other class....

Hell I would even pay 100 USD for it lol

Bah is a dream it will never happen lol

I think the cash shop for items already designed in the game, to be purchased is annoying-ly understandable. I don't like it but I do understand why it exists.

But one really quick thing for people who are just sick of it...something like this would not exist if the demand did not exist.

SE made it available...and that's is all they did. Then the people, just like you and me (Not implying that you or I have made purchases), made it possible for them to continue this trend.

To get a little real here, it's just like voting. People like you and me (again not implying you do or do not vote), get something we don't like...complain about it, but in the end didn't really do anything about it. (Not implying if you did not vote you don't have a reason to be upset).

LOL jeez I have to cover my arse everywhere!

But back on topic...It's no bueno, but at the same time if your a completion-ist, like me, you will either break or quit. I hope you stay, for selfish reasons :)

-Tari

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Originally Posted by Kaeda_Valentyne

I think a lot of people are mad about "having" to buy something they already paid for.
For clarification the mount and minions were developed with our sub money. In order to get them you have to pay for them again.

Anything new added can be claimed as being developed with money from the cash shop the same cannot be said about the original exclusive items.

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While I understand where this kind of statement comes from, it, too, isn't necessarily true. FFXIV is a franchise owned be SE, which draws its revenue from a number of sources. Businesses don't usually keep their income arbitrarily separated as if they were fussy kids not wanting different foods on their plate to touch.

It could still be true that the cash shop launch was funded directly from FFXIV subscription income, but statements like those shouldn't be made as if they were known facts. This is part of how we get threads blown so out of proportion; they start with assumptions as mild as this one and snowball until the sky is falling and even the craziest assumptions are considered factual.

It's really sad that I actually had to pay more than $15 to play the game! I paid like $20 more for my name change and fantasia just so I can become a femcat in order for me to play the game! I mean the game is just unplayable without my very own Odin mount so I paid an extra $20(?) for it. I wasn't able to log in and enjoy the game without those cute little minions on the cash shop so I had to dump a whole bunch of money on that too!

SE please stop forcing us to pay more than our monthly subscription in order to play! wah wah QQ T_T ;_;

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Originally Posted by Orlandeu

It's really sad that I actually had to pay more than $15 to play the game! I paid like $20 more for my name change and fantasia just so I can become a femcat in order for me to play the game! I mean the game is just unplayable without my very own Odin mount so I paid an extra $20(?) for it. I wasn't able to log in and enjoy the game without those cute little minions on the cash shop so I had to dump a whole bunch of money on that too!

SE please stop forcing us to pay more than our monthly subscription in order to play! wah wah QQ T_T ;_;

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First, sarcasm rarely works on the internet and second you are totally missing the point. We are talking about content being placed behind a paywall. Hypothetically speaking let's assume Slepnir and Odin minions aren't in game. Now let's assume SE just announced Odin HM with new i120 weapons and you can buy Odin EX version from the cash shop that includes Slepnir and Odin minion. It's the same concept because it's just "fluff" items but now it actually effects the majority instead of minority. Content is content whether it's PvE, PvP, or Sandbox.

It's a slippery slop and begs the question what my sub actually entitles me to and what addition fees I should pay for? Veterans Reward are a fine example because the beginning they gave all kind of cool stuff but now it's going more and more to the CS. What if tomorrow they said that in the Golden Saucer you can play Parley and Slide 1+XIV but you have to pay extra for chocobo racing and tetra master? Make no mistake that wedding is content, sandbox in nature, but content none the less. Now SE is saying we are adding a new feature but get the full experience of it you have to pay extra.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

First, sarcasm rarely works on the internet and second you are totally missing the point. We are talking about content being placed behind a paywall. Hypothetically speaking let's assume Slepnir and Odin minions aren't in game. Now let's assume SE just announced Odin HM with new i120 weapons and you can buy Odin EX version from the cash shop that includes Slepnir and Odin minion. It's the same concept because it's just "fluff" items but now it actually effects the majority instead of minority. Content is content whether it's PvE, PvP, or Sandbox.

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Also the stuff Orlandeu complained about are optional services (even SE uses this term) which I don't think many people have a problem with. A server transfer or a name change, or even a character appearance change isn't content.

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Originally Posted by Meshico

But one really quick thing for people who are just sick of it...something like this would not exist if the demand did not exist.

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not sure what that means. there's a demand for housing, there's a demand for glamour prisms before either of those were added in patches, why are those not sold in the cash shop?

only two types of things should exist in the cash shop imo.

1) deterrents to unrealistic game altering systems (server transfer, race/sex change, name change)
2) optional skins that would not have been designed if the cash shop doesn't pay for it, so alternate minions, mounts, outfits, hairstyles.

what should not exist in the cash shop

1) unique functionality items that does not exist elsewhere (Dual Rider Mounts, both methods to obtain this appears to be real money only, there should at least be one generic dual rider mount that is quested or dropped in game, they can sell the fancy ones with unique barding in the cash shop).
2) already existing game data, Sleipnir was already designed, we are being charged to shrink it down? the Lion, Bear and Bomb Chair were unique models that didn't exist in game before those mounts were added, if they are charging for the design cost of those, I would be okay with that. Charging for something that we already paid for is dirty.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

not sure what that means. there's a demand for housing, there's a demand for glamour prisms before either of those were added in patches, why are those not sold in the cash shop?

.......

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Don't give them ideas :p

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Vanity is part of why some people pay the subscription fee for the game. Why do those people have to cough up extra for the privilidge to have vanity gear? Personally I think anything they plop in the cash shop should be attainable in the game through various means.

Just because you don't think vanity is part of your subscription fee doesn't mean it's part of how the sub-fee should be allocated to develop all conent in the game to other people.

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You just made me think of this issue in a whole new light. Im starting to think the cash shop items should have their own development budget and only come from revenue generated from the cash shop.

The subs and all the other revenue outside of cash shop should not be spent on cash shop items or their development.

Let that revenue be spent solely on development of the paid sub model and server infrastructure and so forth. Now if it worked like that then we have something.

What I fear like many others might is that beside cash shop revenue , any paid sub also contributes to the cash shop flow even if we do not buy a single cash shop item. So the gist is all proceeds go back into cash shop and keep making more and more cash shop items. Vanity or not. Subs money is going to the cash shop too and it would be better if the two were separate.

I do agree with what you said about items being available in game as well.

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Originally Posted by WHS

You just made me think of this issue in a whole new light. Im starting to think the cash shop items should have their own development budget and only come from revenue generated from the cash shop.

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Yoshi-P already said that's where some of the revenue would go: towards more vanity stuff and other high dollar costs, like moving servers to EU. I think he said this at the London fan fest, can't recall for sure though.

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Originally Posted by FateAudax

Doesn't change the fact that cash-shop items are still optional add-ons. In no way that it is gating content progression or giving added advantage to people purchasing it.

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Every single thing in this game is optional, and this includes gear progression. In fact, Some of the content's longevity is not due to gear but due to aesthetics and glamour. EX Primals are run not for their gear but for the ponies that they drop. People on my server have T9 farms with the High allagan coat of fending on reserve. And the stats on that coat are so garbage that if stats were really all that mattered no one would be wasting their time farming it.

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Originally Posted by FateAudax

fact is that there are no gears which affect stats in the cash-shop. Can we stop with that assumption and stick to the fact that the items in the cash-shop are only fluffs?

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And if there were i130 gear in cash shop I think you would be surprised how little people would care. I mean, if you can beat T13 with i110 what does it matter if you can just buy better gear for 10$? It's optional, you don't need it to beat t13, it would just help. Optional.

I'd like to subscribe to this thread, but I'm afraid of it costing money.

Humour me for a moment here. What if SE would have never made Sleipnir, random minions, gold plan for weddings and what have you if the cash shop didn't exist?

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

i've been doing the Odin FATE since 2.0 was released. Sleipnir is obviously in the game data, now they are releasing instanced fights against Odin, Sleipnir should be a drop from the fight.

people have been asking for instanced Odin and Behemoth fights for months now since the lag-fest that are those FATEs never do them any justice.

since a version of Behemoth was added to CT, more people was expecting another version of Odin eventually. the expectation always was to earn that in a fight.

it was kind of weird that the Behemoth mount wasn't earned either.

people have also been asking for dual character mounts for a long time.

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Thanks, but that doesn't answer my question at all. With your logic every boss should drop their mount or "themselves" as a mount for reward. Things being in game data doesn't mean anything for this question.

[QUOTE=SendohJin;2615365]not sure what that means. there's a demand for housing, there's a demand for glamour prisms before either of those were added in patches, why are those not sold in the cash shop?

Not to get too derailed but, they made something, then the demand (purchasing) of these items, encourages more of this type of thing.

I hope this makes sense so here it goes: Just because it doesn't exist, doesn't mean you don't know you want/need/must-have it.

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Originally Posted by Meshico

But one really quick thing for people who are just sick of it...something like this would not exist if the demand did not exist.

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The thing is no one really demanded them, neither back in the 1.0 days or since ARR's launch. Sure people asked for Fantasia, name changes and server transfers, they're basic services in every MMO and not all of them handle appearance changes with an in game item. Cash shops aren't a basic MMO service, as proved by SE's other still operating MMOs, FFXI and DQX.

A demand can be manufactured after all, just put stuff for sale and see what sticks, loyal/fanboyish players are almost guaranteed to buy it. Another way to do this is to provide small samples for free, like the free Fantasias or all the vanity items, and then start charging for them.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

The rub of it is, traditionally that's why people pay a subscription fee.

Apparantly some people seem to think the subscription fee is just a key that unlocks the door and everything ontop of that should cost extra.

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Because the terms literally state that the sub fee is "the key that unlocks the door" an everything else is up to SE's discretion. You can't play XIV unless you click: "I agree/I Accept." You don't even own your character, which is why you can't do much if SE decides to uphold the "we can get rid of your character/account whenever we want if deemed fit" because you agreed to it. They likely won't (very few companies do) but largely you pay a sub fee to access the game just like you pay a monthly fee to access the internet and everything else after you gain access is up to x company(ies.)

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Originally Posted by Waliel

I'd like to subscribe to this thread, but I'm afraid of it costing money.

Humour me for a moment here. What if SE would have never made Sleipnir, random minions, gold plan for weddings and what have you if the cash shop didn't exist?

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i've been doing the Odin FATE since 2.0 was released. Sleipnir is obviously in the game data, now they are releasing instanced fights against Odin, Sleipnir should be a drop from the fight.

people have been asking for instanced Odin and Behemoth fights for months now since the lag-fest that are those FATEs never do them any justice.

since a version of Behemoth was added to CT, more people was expecting another version of Odin eventually. the expectation always was to earn that in a fight.

it was kind of weird that the Behemoth mount wasn't earned either.

people have also been asking for dual character mounts for a long time.

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Originally Posted by Ketsuyame

Stop, just stop. You're reaching and you know it. If you're watching a foreign movie and it's in a DIFFERENT LANGUAGE, you NEED the subtitles to understand. Thats a necessity. If you're playing the game and there are items in the cash shop, that are not GAME BREAKING, thats a desire. Lets not muddle the line between a need and a want. Distinguish the two.

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that's insanely difficult to do in a videogame. nobody needs anything besides a stable connection.

I'm sooo ready to buy booster packs for my Gold Foil Kefka Triple Triad card. I have lots of preloaded crysta that I need ways to spend lol. For those that can't afford to or refuse to pay-to-ride, sorry but good bye!

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Originally Posted by Ketsuyame

Stop, just stop. You're reaching and you know it. If you're watching a foreign movie and it's in a DIFFERENT LANGUAGE, you NEED the subtitles to understand. Thats a necessity. If you're playing the game and there are items in the cash shop, that are not GAME BREAKING, thats a desire. Lets not muddle the line between a need and a want. Distinguish the two.

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Define "GAME BREAKING", then. NOTHING they could ever sell is truly "GAME BREAKING". So what if they sell ilvl 130 gear? So what, even, if they sold ilvl 140 gear? It's OPTIONAL, you can play the game just fine without it. Just because it messes with your desire for progression instead of someone else's desire for vanity or fluff, doesn't mean it's any more or less optional or "GAME BREAKING".

Don't tell people to distinguish "need" and "want" when you can't do it yourself. Nothing in this game is "need", everything is "want". And your personal "want" is not more important than another person's "want".

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Originally Posted by Riepah

Define "GAME BREAKING", then. NOTHING they could ever sell is truly "GAME BREAKING". So what if they sell ilvl 130 gear? So what, even, if they sold ilvl 140 gear? It's OPTIONAL, you can play the game just fine without it. Just because it messes with your desire for progression instead of someone else's desire for vanity or fluff, doesn't mean it's any more or less optional or "GAME BREAKING".

Don't tell people to distinguish "need" and "want" when you can't do it yourself. Nothing in this game is "need", everything is "want". And your personal "want" is not more important than another person's "want".

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Calm down a moment. If the cash shop sells any gear, it would most likely be level 1 or so with minimal to no stats. No progressional stats, no high level gear, no raids locked behind it. "No Pay to Win" means exactly that.

I agree with the fact that they should just come clean about everything - and clarify, when showing off new things, what's gonna be for cash and what's gonna be "free" (it's not free when we're already paying a sub). The way I see it, that's at the core of the issue for many people who are complaining: that we've been teased for months and not once did Yoshi even mention any possibilty of any of it (that is, the EB stuff) being cash shop stuff. And this following what happened to personal housing, which was basically the same story in a different setting, well... it just does not do any good to the players' trust/faith.

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Originally Posted by Nel_Celestine

Calm down a moment. If the cash shop sells any gear, it would most likely be level 1 or so with minimal to no stats. No progressional stats, no high level gear, no raids locked behind it. "No Pay to Win" means exactly that.

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Uh. I am perfectly calm, you seem to be misunderstanding my point.

I am saying, if person A values raiding and doesn't care about vanity, while B cares about vanity and fluff but not about raiding, A would get screwed over if they added ilvl 140 items to the cash shop, while B wouldn't care, while B gets screwed if they put vanity and fluff in the cash shop, while person A doesn't care.
What person A wants is not objectively more important than what person B wants, neither of the two should get screwed over, and neither of the two should jump to SE's defense when SE decides to screw one of them over.

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Originally Posted by BreathlessTao

I agree with the fact that they should just come clean about everything - and clarify, when showing off new things, what's gonna be for cash and what's gonna be "free" (it's not free when we're already paying a sub). The way I see it, that's at the core of the issue for many people who are complaining: that we've been teased for months and not once did Yoshi even mention any possibilty of any of it (that is, the EB stuff) being cash shop stuff.

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This, the problem is SE is setting up expectations and then through intentional misdirection or via the withholding of information until the point of no return, failing to deliver in the eyes of some players. The wedding stuff was shown off before the cash shop was even announced, in the future SE needs to be more transparent about this stuff so people don't start hyping it up only to be let down when it's behind a paywall.

Players shouldn't have to ask "Oh, is this an additional cash shop charge or part of my sub fee" when SE shows off new content. THEY should be the ones to clarify that when showing off new content.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

blah blah, I keep using the "what if they sold ilvl gear" excuse.

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You should stop with the hypotheticals. Thats been the basis of your argument for pages now. You're right about one thing though. We don't NEED any of this fluff. The example the guy used before me was referring to the subtitles for a movie. Now while I may want to watch the movie, I NEED to have the subtitles considering there is a language barrier. I have no personal want nor did I boast my personal want as more important as the next players. You're just being argumentative for the sake of it, and thats ok.These are the forums, right?

And to quell this vanity thing; YES, we all love vanity, yes some indulge it more than others. No, some people don't even bother with endgame. But tell me this. What person do you know pays $13-15 monthly to play dress up and nothing else in an MMO? I mean to the extent that you're adamantly fighting for? Tell me, please.

I just want the moggle hat, I can pay 10€ for that, even if I think, it's a lot and a fair price should be 5€.

Truth is they won't stop, I also do not like this but as long as they don't make it pay to win I'm good, but I do wish they could offer things that should be free for free instead of charging for every single thing, like name changing it should at least be offered free the 1st the time and have charges if you want to change it yet again, but it is what it is.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

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But high level gear is clearly selling of power or 'win' where as selling a minion is not selling power and therefore according to Yoshida-san's statement "no pay to win" is not selling power so therefore is, in SE's definition, perfectly ok.

I for one, bought the minions because I am a minion collector. I figured tossing a few bucks extra at the game is fine for that because it's not hurting the economy, the raid tiers, nor other minion collectors because these items were never in game in the first place and the price to me was acceptable. The mount however? I won't be buying that. As I said on my YT show I do not see it's value at $24 or such. No unique music, no unique stance or pose, missing legs. At most, I'd offer them maybe $10 for it if I really was interested at all. Values and the like have different meanings to different people. We don't and can't always agree on everything someone else says regardless of reasons.

I am just really getting utterly frustrated with the chanting and pitchforks and the 'what ifs' and 'slippery slopes' forecasting nothing but doom and despair for everything ever because reasons. If anything makes me want to leave and quit XIV, it won't be a cash shop, it will be the why the community acts and reacts a lot of the time.

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Originally Posted by Ketsuyame

You should stop with the hypotheticals. Thats been the basis of your argument for pages now.
What person do you know pays $13-15 monthly to play dress up and nothing else in an MMO? I mean to the extent that you're adamantly fighting for? Tell me, please.

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I am giving you the "what if they sold ilvl gear" in an attempt to help you understand the position people who actually care about vanity, fluff, minions, mounts etc. more than about raiding are finding themselves in, but I see now that it is a hopeless endeavour.

To answer your question, the vast majority of my friends care more about housing, glamour, dyes etc. than high end content. FCOB could be behind a paywall and hardly anyone would be immediately affected, because the majority of the playerbase isn't through SCOB yet.

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Originally Posted by Nel_Celestine

But high level gear is clearly selling of power or 'win' where as selling a minion is not selling power and therefore according to Yoshida-san's statement "no pay to win" is not selling power so therefore is, in SE's definition, perfectly ok.

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If only everyone agreed with SE's definitions and decisions, forums would not be required at all.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Forums exist for numerous reasons - They don't exist solely to complain about everything.

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Forums exist for player feedback, suggestions, bug reports. If SE always knew best, none of these things would be required.

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Originally Posted by Nel_Celestine

I am just really getting utterly frustrated with the chanting and pitchforks and the 'what ifs' and 'slippery slopes' forecasting nothing but doom and despair for everything ever because reasons. If anything makes me want to leave and quit XIV, it won't be a cash shop, it will be the why the community acts and reacts a lot of the time.

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This is precisely the problem. People need to calm down about the cash shop. Talking about these slippery slopes is useless. "What if they sell raid tier gear for $$$?" Of course they won't do that... That would destroy the game. SE isn't dumb. They're not going to do something that will swiftly cost them a large amount of their subscriber base. Minions/mounts, whatever, if anyone actually unsubs because of having to pay some money for a minion I'll just laugh.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

If only everyone agreed with SE's definitions and decisions, forums would not be required at all.

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Forums exist for numerous reasons - They don't exist solely to complain about everything.

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

Don't give them ideas :p

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I'll give them an ideal put Serah's outfit from XIII-2 on the shop I will buy that make it happen SE! *looks around for flame repellant*

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Forums exist for numerous reasons - They don't exist solely to complain about everything.

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Sometimes the hottest topic is debating the current BiS, other times the hottest topic is discontent with the latest changes. In the previous case, you'll see numerous threads on the first page for several days about weapons and robes and boots; in the latter, you'll see numerous threads on the first page for several days about how awful feature X is or why content Y should not even have been tampered with.

Forums exist for numerous reasons, but they are also alive. Go back a couple pages and you'll surely find other subjects as well - or better yet: try the other, more specific sections of the forum.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

First, sarcasm rarely works on the internet and second you are totally missing the point. /cry

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First off, but you got it! Kudos.
I don't know what content SE has added that I have no access to because I haven't paid for it. Eternal Bond? So I actually have to pay to get married? OMG SE stop forcing me to pay X amount of $$$ to marry my significant other! What's that SE? There's a FREE plan that I can use and get married anyway?! And the Gold plan is OPTIONAL?
Does this mean SE is not selling ACTUAL CONTENT in the cash shop?!

In all seriousness, your assumptions are all based on nothing. Not until SE has added actual content behind this paywall you are talking about, am I going to be butthurt about something that is not forced upon me to play the game.

I like how people are okay paying the price for a mount as the same price as expansion packs were for FFXI. More actually. I got seeker's for 15$ lol. BUT HEY....whatever makes people happy I guess.

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Originally Posted by Meier

I like how people are okay paying the price for a mount as the same price as expansion packs were for FFXI. More actually. I got seeker's for 15$ lol. BUT HEY....whatever makes people happy I guess.

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I got the entire Seekers Collection for $10 on sale, was a nice deal. For what Sleipnir costs and what the premium weddings will most likely cost, I could get about 5-10+ Steam games on sale. Sure I could also buy both the games and the vanity items easily, but then I'd just rather have twice the games instead. Nice for people who like paying as much for a single vanity item or feature in their favorite MMO though, it is their money after all I guess.