Is the Ninja nerf really needed?

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Originally Posted by Sarynth

Just my two cents but I always thought having to memorize and use ninjutsu properly was enough to balance ninjas high damage.

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My Ninja is only level 43 but I don't think it's really hard to memorize them. If anything, the easy way to memorize Ninjutsus is based on whether it's a 2 or 3-string combo, and which one you end with, without any repetition. Since I unlocked the 2 strings, I have never used Fuma Shuriken so I won't take that into consideration. The only thing that makes it "hard" if any, is the Mudra lag (which they addressed as something that cannot be looked at at the moment).

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Originally Posted by coldreactive

I want them to nerf its aggro generation, I don't care if DPS is nerfed.

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Ninjas do not have any additional enmity generation on their skill, so to nerf their enmity generation is to nerf their DPS.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Like me and many other people said already Ninja isn't even top dps in the current version the top dps still goes to monk. People will go back to stacking 2 monks for their melee slots if ninja is nerfed so much.

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I do not play Monk, nor do I really do or know anything about Final Coil, but I don't believe Dragon Kick debuff stacks. It really doesn't make sense to stack Monks because Ninja can still provide Vulnerability Up via Trick Attack, and still has utility over double stacking Monks (ie. Goad, Ninjutsus). Their DPS won't be nerfed out of the water, but will probably be just toned down a little. It won't really bring about the end of the job.

It's not just about the dragon kick debuff; mnk's pure dps output still wins. As far as how much of a nerf happens and whether NIN will contribute enough via Trick Attack and other means to still justify a slot, we'll have to see. Honestly, the only nerf that was needed was how easy they have it on TP usage.

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Originally Posted by juniglee

I do not play Monk, nor do I really do or know anything about Final Coil, but I don't believe Dragon Kick debuff stacks. It really doesn't make sense to stack Monks because Ninja can still provide Vulnerability Up via Trick Attack, and still has utility over double stacking Monks (ie. Goad, Ninjutsus). Their DPS won't be nerfed out of the water, but will probably be just toned down a little. It won't really bring about the end of the job.

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The reason you take a second monk is so that one can go bonkers with his DPS since the other Monk will Dragon Kick and he can bootshine instead.
With Monk being the best ST DPS it's actually a huge thing and already worked in the old coils.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

The reason you take a second monk is so that one can go bonkers with his DPS since the other Monk will Dragon Kick and he can bootshine instead.
With Monk being the best ST DPS it's actually a huge thing and already worked in the old coils.

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I guess at this point the only thing going for Ninjas is the utility of Trick Attack, Goad, and really just how much lower their DPS is. I really do not think it's going to be so low that nobody will use the class in FCoB, nor totally invalidate them as a DPS class, as this thread is making it sound to be.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

It's not just about the dragon kick debuff; mnk's pure dps output still wins. As far as how much of a nerf happens and whether NIN will contribute enough via Trick Attack and other means to still justify a slot, we'll have to see. Honestly, the only nerf that was needed was how easy they have it on TP usage.

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Potential TP cost increases concern me. If it's more than one skill going from 50 to 60, it will make Goad less useful in raid settings since Ninja cannot use it on themselves. The main attraction of Goad was it staves off the need for Paeon, thanks in part to Ninja's TP efficiency, if they lose that too much, Goad is less useful as a result.

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Originally Posted by juniglee

I guess at this point the only thing going for Ninjas is the utility of Trick Attack, Goad, and really just how much lower their DPS is. I really do not think it's going to be so low that nobody will use the class in FCoB, nor totally invalidate them as a DPS class, as this thread is making it sound to be.

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Goad effectiveness is tied to Ninja'a TP efficiency, which SE has said they are going to change. If the Bard is going to have to sing Paeon more quickly anyway, and Monk has higher DPS and they are better in pairs. That leans heavily toward just bringing two Monks are your Melee DPS.

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Originally Posted by Truth_Chikara

Ninja isn't top dps as it is, the hell are you talking about? If your ninja is parsing higher than your monk, you need a new monk.

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Remember, all extra damage provided to the raid by trick attack belongs to the ninja, but doesn't show up on the parser.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Like me and many other people said already Ninja isn't even top dps in the current version the top dps still goes to monk. People will go back to stacking 2 monks for their melee slots if ninja is nerfed so much.

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(Pauvre Dragoons not even considered after update already, oh lawd)

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Originally Posted by Parodine

(Pauvre Dragoons not even considered after update already, oh lawd)

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What worries me the most is that Ninja will be nerfed too much. Dragoon's will get a DPS boost, but not the utility they needed to really give them a place at the table, and raids will go back to using 2 Monks.

I was really hoping Dragoon would just be brought in line to Monk and Ninja in terms of DPS with added utility so the Melee DPS raid choice would be a question of which utility is the most useful to your group.

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Originally Posted by dday3six

What worries me the most is that Ninja will be nerfed too much. Dragoon's will get a DPS boost, but not the utility they needed to really give them a place at the table, and raids will go back to using 2 Monks.

I was really hoping Dragoon would just be brought in line to Monk and Ninja in terms of DPS with added utility so the Melee DPS raid choice would be a question of which utility is the most useful to your group.

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I agree. I think in terms of implementation, I'd rather not see nerfs for most jobs. Before NIN came around, they didn't want to nerf MNK for the sake of DRG. Harkens back to the FFXI days a bit. Makes me a wee bit nervous, but we'll see.

Still, we'll see when the update comes I guess. I think the raid utility NIN brings with TA will be too juicy to pass up in most cases. They're often not credited for the DPS they add to the group during the time that is active which is technically partially theirs.

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Originally Posted by Parodine

(Pauvre Dragoons not even considered after update already, oh lawd)

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The dragoon changes won't likely earn them a final coil spot from someone who is recruiting unless you have someone who only plays drg and its their only job their groups will still use them. They are giving them survival with more mdef, and easing up on positionals so only damage is effected you still get the buffs and debuffs if you miss them. However now high skilled drgs don't miss positionals now what the buff does is helps out less skilled players close the gap between high skilled players so in the end high skilled players really just getting survivability increase so like they won't have to stack a bunch of vit melds for T13.

Monk has a high skill ceiling? Are you people delusional? "Keeping up DoT's and buffs" is no harder then any other job - DK/Demolish/ToD/Twin ? That's pretty standard stuff.. All 3 melee DPS have to do this..

As far as GL, losing GL isn't as punishing as you would honestly think. It takes roughly 15-20 seconds (less if you have PB, but PB isn't always ideal just to get GL3 stacks) to build up stacks again once you lose it (Roughly the same CD as Ninjutsu)... And keeping GL in most fights is about as hard as executing a mudra (so not hard at all, and often easier as FCoB fights are practically dummies). Sure there is the oddball fight such as Levi Ex or Ifrit (old content) where you will lose it during jumps, but jobs such as BLM have a tonne more fights where they are punished due to high dodge mechanics.

Ninja isn't "easy" for a lot of people either. While they still have the standard buffs to take care of (a few DoT's, damage/speed buffs), they also have to pay attention to near perfect timings with things like utilizing TA during the party's bursty phases, timing ninjutsu to squeeze in an extra Raiton, and keeping Goad on CD to support the MNK/DRG/BRD/Tanks (which MNK do not need to worry about.. spam your 2x sets of 3 skills over and over).

In addition to ALL of this - MNK is still the superior single target DPS.

Also the arguments about "SE's battle testers having played NIN far longer then we have" is folly. In the translation itself, Yoshi basically said that players are better then their internal testers, and that the current rotation for NIN (which was pretty obvious to most people after playing it for a short while) was different to those of the tester's. So it just shows that SE's testers aren't really great players. This is pretty evident after seeing some of those hilariously awful videos of them trying to complete primal fights in the early days.

While I am not one to say one job is "harder" than the other.. However to play a NIN well and use their utility in the right moment, takes more skill then spamming 2x sets of 6 skills on a MNK.

Finally I have never been a fan of this argument that SE keeps making as to why "MNK is so stronk" and that is because it has a "high skill ceiling". If that is honestly the reason, then make DRG more challenging to play well, and buff it on par with MNK.

Being a "harder job to play" is an extremely stupid excuse for having unbalanced jobs.

My issue why increase TP costs? Long fights are such a pain keep a usable amount of TP. Damage yes they are a bit op when having 2 ninja's can shave minutes of runs that could not be done before (as long as you kill the end boss before your TP runs out)

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Originally Posted by Zumi

The dragoon changes won't likely earn them a final coil spot from someone who is recruiting unless you have someone who only plays drg and its their only job their groups will still use them. They are giving them survival with more mdef, and easing up on positionals so only damage is effected you still get the buffs and debuffs if you miss them. However now high skilled drgs don't miss positionals now what the buff does is helps out less skilled players close the gap between high skilled players so in the end high skilled players really just getting survivability increase so like they won't have to stack a bunch of vit melds for T13.

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They're also talking about damage buffs via reduced cooldowns and/or increased dot potency. I wouldn't be surprised if bfb gets dropped down to 1min to match IR among other things.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

They're also talking about damage buffs via reduced cooldowns and/or increased dot potency. I wouldn't be surprised if bfb gets dropped down to 1min to match IR among other things.

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Would prefer something a bit more akin to 1.0's Power Surge such as a stacking buff that gives a damage buff every time you use a jump (Jump/Spine/Dragon/Elusive). Give them a mechanic. Currently they don't really have any.

However they won't redesign the class.

Lower B4B CD wouldn't be a buff to just DRG though - would also buff all classes that sub it (basically all physical dps). I expect something more like a lower Jump CD.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Lower B4B CD wouldn't be a buff to just DRG though - would also buff all classes that sub it (basically all physical dps).

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Not necessarily. They could just as easily tie the reduced CD to the improved B4B trait. Unlikely to be sure, but it's one way to boost DRG performance without enhancing anyone else who can use it.

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So you're admitting that you don't know as much about MNK as you implied earlier then.

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Nope. Don't go putting words in my mouth.

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As far as GL, losing GL isn't as punishing as you would honestly think. It takes roughly 15-20 seconds (less if you have PB, but PB isn't always ideal just to get GL3 stacks) to build up stacks again once you lose it (Roughly the same CD as Ninjutsu)...

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It actually really is. In a game like this where your damage is measured on a per-second basis, 15-20 seconds of being gimped is huge and it *will* add up.

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While I am not one to say one job is "harder" than the other.. However to play a NIN well and use their utility in the right moment, takes more skill then spamming 2x sets of 6 skills on a MNK.

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The mere facts that NIN doesn't have to bother with positionals or a crucial buff that requires near-constant enemy contact to maintain make it a far easier job to play. There is absolutely no contest there.

The only remotely complex thing is memorizing what mudras do what, and ultimately that's really not much different than memorizing any other DPS' rotations or when to use each weaponskill.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

It actually really is. In a game like this where your damage is measured on a per-second basis, 15-20 seconds of being gimped is huge and it *will* add up.

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15-20 seconds of losing GL once or twice in a fight only puts them at less then 3 skills behind in terms of GCD (excluding the damage buff that GL3 gives)... When MNK's damage is already far superior to any melee currently, the effect is pretty small - provided the MNK doesn't suck and lose GL constantly.
The one thing that encourages people to choose NIN currently is Goad, (and potentially TA) which is more due to the need for Paeon in most dummy fights. Currently in FCoB, and even SCoB, MNK is superior for all turns.

In addition to this - losing GL while PB is on cooldown is about as frequent to a NIN derping and stuffing up Huton - which is rarely (for a good MNK anyhow).

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The mere facts that NIN doesn't have to bother with positionals or a crucial buff that requires near-constant enemy contact to maintain make it a far easier job to play. There is absolutely no contest there.

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Are you kidding? MNK's need for positionals are definitely not as punishing as you make them out to be. In addition to this, there are very very few fights where this is a thing. The only one that comes to mind is T9 during the final phase - and that is purely due to a strategic choice. Even then, there are only certain times where the MNK does have to stack with the party during this phase (and that is Fire in, and potentially the Thunder that is paired with a Lunar). Every other time DPS can be wherever they want.

DRG's positionals are a lot more punishing in their current state - due to the fact that you won't get the buff from HT, and your combo won't trigger for Chaos - that is far more punishing then a potency decrease.

Positionals are NOT hard. If you can hit left/right on a keyboard or controller, you can play MNK.

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The only remotely complex thing is memorizing what mudras do what, and ultimately that's really not much different than memorizing any other DPS' rotations or when to use each weaponskill.

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No, the complex part of NIN is actually timing party utility. Giving Goad to the right job at the right time, landing Trick during bursty phases, and finally squeezing in as many Raitons as you can without losing Huton.

On top of this, MNK's "rotation" if you can call it that is braindead. It is literally 2x combos and a 2x DoT's (one of which is part of the 2 main combos)..
NIN technically has 3 combos with 2x DoT's (1 is combo'd), 3x main ninjutsu's, plus 2x off-GCD's that have to be utilized well to get the full benefit (Trick & Kassatsu). Finally, Goad has to be rotated to the correct jobs as mentioned.

Finally it is MUCH easier to miss-hit a mudra or skill, or stuff up in general on NIN then it is on MNK. It is also nearly as punishing (Missing Huton is just like letting GL drop minus the damage buff, missing TA positional is like missing a Heavy Thrust on DRG, or miss clicking in general and accidently wasting your Ninjutsu timer is a lot more common then derping on MNK). I can bet that even the best NINs out there occasionally mess up a mudra or 2.

I guess my point with this is that in order to truly utilize NIN's kit, you do have to somewhat choose when to time it correctly. MNK's utility just comes naturally (aside from Mantra which is arguably not needed in most cases as there is already so much overcure going around).

MNK to play "fairly well" is much much much more braindead and easy then NIN is. Although all of this is subjective, depending on whether you are a monkey or not. I have seen some awful MNKs, but I have definitely seen worse NINs.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

Not necessarily. They could just as easily tie the reduced CD to the improved B4B trait. Unlikely to be sure, but it's one way to avoid boosting DRG performance without enhancing anyone else who can use it.

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This is semi off-topic but honestly I expected them to do this with AoE stoneskin - just tacking it on top of the WHM trait that already exists (AoE outside of battle). It baffles me as to why they are adding a whole new skill for this (perhaps for future plans when Stoneskin II will be similar to Succor?)

So I don't know if they will go this route with B4B, however there is definitely a possibility, I mean they are reducing the damage taken reduction so it is entirely possible that they are adding/adjusting the trait.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

*snip*

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You're making positional attacks out to be more then they are. A player just needs to set one step over the line separating rear and flank, then step back and forth as needed. Many players move way more than they need to, losing DPS in the process, when all that needs to be done is press the skill and move during that skill's animation as needed.

These nerfs had better not go beyond a TP increase to Aeolian Edge, Shadow Fang, etc. Ninja DPS is absolutely fine. Honestly, this constant back and forth of nerfing and buffing every job from Square Enix is getting a tad annoying at this point.

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Originally Posted by Altena

15-20 seconds of losing GL once or twice in a fight only puts them at less then 3 skills behind in terms of GCD (excluding the damage buff that GL3 gives)... When MNK's damage is already far superior to any melee currently, the effect is pretty small

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I main monk and actually agree with you that it's easier to play than the other two melee(after your opener, ever gcd entails using one of three possible moves). But you are so far off the mark with your comments on greased lightning that it borders on absurd. Every endgame fight added since 2.2(with the exception of t6, shiva ex, and t8, I haven't tried t12 or 13) has at least one mechanic where a monk can be forced to lose their greased lightning stacks when perfect balance wouldn't be up, putting them 9 skills(I have no clue where you got 3 from) behind both other melee, as monks attacks have the lowest potency on their skills of the three, and greased lightning buffs both their damage and attack speed. The 27% damage and 15% attack speed is the sole reason their damage is higher, and as few as 3 losses of that will put them behind a ninja in damage.

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Originally Posted by TheMax1087

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GCD gets reduced by roughly .5 seconds with GL - meaning if you didn't lose it, you would be roughly 3 skills better off. Takes 9 without PB to get 3 stacks - meaning an increased GCD of .5 seconds per skill = roughly 4.5 more seconds worth of GCD if you maintained it - meaning 2-3 skills. (This of course isn't taking into consideration the damage buff you also gain, nor does it take into consideration the reduced GCD during the 2nd & 3rd combo while building stacks, however I did state this and it's due to simplicity/my poor math skills).

You are not 9 skills worse off if you lose GL - as you are still hitting those 9 skills, just at a .5 second increased rate to 3 stacks of GL.

That is what I meant by my statement.

T10 doesn't force you off the mob unless you get charged - which isn't a forced mechanic that's "always on the MNK". It's purely RNG. You will lose about as much damage as any other melee would.
T11 is more or less a dummy fight for the most part.
T12 is a dummy fight with adds (provided you have a BRD that is handling a lot of the mechanics).
I haven't touched T13 though so I can't truthfully comment on that one - however considering world firsts (and many other groups) run MNK/MNK for it, I daresay there are reasons for that.

If you simply get unlucky and get "every single charge" in T10 - or at least a tonne of them, then sure it will hurt your damage, but this is the same for any DPS.
I won't deny that MNK does have its weakness in that regard - and that's in places where they consistently lose GL3. However if it only happens a few times in a 10 min fight, it is still pushing huge numbers generally.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Would prefer something a bit more akin to 1.0's Power Surge such as a stacking buff that gives a damage buff every time you use a jump (Jump/Spine/Dragon/Elusive). Give them a mechanic. Currently they don't really have any.

However they won't redesign the class.

Lower B4B CD wouldn't be a buff to just DRG though - would also buff all classes that sub it (basically all physical dps). I expect something more like a lower Jump CD.

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It would be a 3x stronger buff to DRG than anyone else, and it could also just be part of improved BfB if there's concern about how it works cross class. I mean, what else are they going to do to buff DRG via cooldowns? Knocking another 10s off Jump isn't going to make enough of a difference to fix the problem. Besides, it would be better to just drop BfB down to 60s for everyone. 80s is a weird cooldown timer that doesn't work well with any classes skill rotations. It would just make the skill much cleaner for everyone involved.

Skill ceiling really shouldn't be an excuse for one class being more or less desirable than another. All DPS jobs emphasize certain player skillsets over others and Monk's happens to be 'keeping uptime'.

I don't feel MNKs are threatened by the existence of NIN whatsoever. They are still the HC raid meta. They will continue to be the HC raid meta until at *least* Heavensward, because there will be no more HC raids for NIN to even try to compete in until then. Another job threatening to dethrone them from being kings and queens of the HC mDPS meta isn't a 'problem'. That's 'there is now more than one melee DPS being viable in the HC raid meta'. Dragon Kick and traited Mantra are powerful utility and people conveniently forget this when they list DRG and NIN's party synergy skills alongside the 'Pure DPS' that MNK is.

Balancing classes around their skill floors and ceilings is a falsehood. You will only get useless classes if you design around that.

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Are you kidding? MNK's need for positionals are definitely not as punishing as you make them out to be. In addition to this, there are very very few fights where this is a thing. The only one that comes to mind is T9 during the final phase - and that is purely due to a strategic choice. Even then, there are only certain times where the MNK does have to stack with the party during this phase (and that is Fire in, and potentially the Thunder that is paired with a Lunar). Every other time DPS can be wherever they want.

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Almost every mob that isn't a trash mob will regularly spin around to do special attacks on non-tank targets and cause positionals to fail. The whole "very very few fights" thing is total baloney and you know it.

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MNK to play "fairly well" is much much much more braindead and easy then NIN is.

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If that were true, it would show in my numbers, considering NIN is a job that's far newer and I have considerably less experience playing it. It does not.

Dropping the poison buff from 20% bonus damage to 18% would seem to be (more than) plenty. Monks can still outparse them as is (which I personally think should just barely be the case with each job playing at 90-100% <skill>), and DRGs will hopefully soon be buffed to near enough that level. If their TP costs are increased as planned, that's just going to burn holes in Bard's mana pockets. Without the ability to Goad themselves, fighting at MNK speed w/o MNK TP costs is just going to cause another, and likely more significant, DRG mDef-style issue.

On the discussion of skill floors and ceilings, I have to agree that they shouldn't be a complete justification for any job's superiority, but at the same time I'd like to generally see each class having about equal(ly high) skill ceiling in different styles rather than any one class honestly being classifiable as easier or harder than others.

As far as those DRG buffs go, I'd rather not see the CDs or generally form touched (I do find the 80s CDs to have their place alongside the 40 and 60s ones and have no desire to attempt to 'normalize' or simplify that CD arsenal), but would love to see something more than just having Heavy Thrust's bonus buffed. I'd like to see the class made more opportunistic, if possible, without losing the rotational mindset it already has (just, perhaps something equally intuitive but a bit complex and/or more able and reasonable to take risks in) and perhaps furthering on the 'melee burst king' aspect, which it now shares with Ninja for better or worse.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Almost every mob that isn't a trash mob will regularly spin around to do special attacks on non-tank targets and cause positionals to fail. The whole "very very few fights" thing is total baloney and you know it.

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Lol wot? I am beginning to believe that you don't even play melee.

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If that were true, it would show in my numbers, considering NIN is a job that's far newer and I have considerably less experience playing it. It does not.

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I am quite intrigued after reading some of your posts.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Nope. Don't go putting words in my mouth.

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...y-needed/page2

It's really amusing to see people saying that ninjas can keep up their max dps at anytime, or that bad ninjas do about the same damage as good ninjas or that they're easier to use than monks... Obviously these people have never done a serious fight as ninja, otherwise they would know that keeping up the same dps you do on a dummy is practically IMPOSSIBLE.

On fights like T9 there are lots and lots of things that you have to keep into consideration, especially when ninja is the only melee that doesn't have a fixed rotation, and the minimal error can lead you to a massive dps drop: did you use dancing edge, suiton, trick attack or kassatsu right before the boss disappeared? Or did you not reapply dots in time before having to deal with other mechanics? Or did you invert the order of the combos because you forgot which debuffs/dots were still on the boss when you started attacking again? Or did you mess up a ninjutsu because of the lag? Oh too bad, you lose 30% or more of your dps.

...And guess what? Even if you somehow manage to do everything right, good monks will still do more dps than you.

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Originally Posted by dday3six

You're making positional attacks out to be more then they are. A player just needs to set one step over the line separating rear and flank, then step back and forth as needed. Many players move way more than they need to, losing DPS in the process, when all that needs to be done is press the skill and move during that skill's animation as needed.

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So long you don't have a tank who rotate the boss around every 3 seconds

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Originally Posted by Felis

So long you don't have a tank who rotate the boss around every 3 seconds

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Let's assume it's a raid setting and everyone knows their job, else we would need to account for all 31 flavors of stupid behavior.