2.41 patch, Ninja nerf for the Ninjas and Dungeons.

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Originally Posted by RaizeGraymalkin

This thread scared the hell out of me. They better not nerf them just because people seem to think they're OP (mostly Dragoons).

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"seem to think"? It's already been proven that Ninja does substantially more damage than other classes. They will be getting nerfed. Please look forward to it (no really, don't want you s****ing your pants).

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Originally Posted by zar

"seem to think"? It's already been proven that Ninja does substantially more damage than other classes. They will be getting nerfed. Please look forward to it (no really, don't want you s****ing your pants).

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You have nothing to go on with this claim, mnk is still the top dps, drg has incoming buffs. You don't know whether nin nerfs are imminent or not, for all you know drg could become the top dps after they get buffed making nin 3rd place and pissing off all the mnks. Casters and BRD should never have higher ST dps than the melee in my opinion, they are far superior when it comes to AoE damage.

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Originally Posted by zar

It's already been proven that Ninja does substantially more damage than other classes. They will be getting nerfed.

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Funny statement. Every T12 and T13 parse I've seen has MNK on top, with many statics running MNK x2 on T13 even.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

Right now there's virtually no penalty in stacking Ninjas and Monks, while there is with every other job.

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Yes there is. Healers will eventually run out of MP from all the AoEs the melees would have to avoid or eat, their AoE potential would be utter crap for things that actually need it... Their DPS does not outweigh other jobs roles. That's why we haven't seen 4x MNK or 4x NIN clearing final coil... Plus the whole LB gauge building slower, thus making those clutch DPS races even worse.

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Originally Posted by Eardstapa

Yes there is. Healers will eventually run out of MP from all the AoEs the melees would have to avoid or eat, their AoE potential would be utter crap for things that actually need it... Their DPS does not outweigh other jobs roles. That's why we haven't seen 4x MNK or 4x NIN clearing final coil... Plus the whole LB gauge building slower, thus making those clutch DPS races even worse.

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You quoted me out of context.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

Ninja's utility is on par with Bard (if the healers don't need ballad, which they don't need after they master whichever endgame content, killing Bard out of the equation unless it's for first time progression),

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You won't have to worry about melee eating AoEs in any endgame content currently, everything that is shared among the party (t10 wild charge, t11 adds, t13 mechanics, etc) are already being healed, everything else is irrelevant. Limit Break isn't a factor, all fights are now 10minutes+ and having a lb3 is easy to get, which is all you normally need to complete any content. You don't currently bring 4 melee in coil because of mechanic specific scenarios (the node in t11 with physical defense, or having a AoE lb for T10's adds), but that being said the other slots will be filled with Monks and Ninjas.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

But they are kinda OP. I was in a Titan HM the other day and the Ninja literally said that he was thankful for the movement speed buff because it made dodging the weights easier.

I just think that maybe because it's new that SE put A LOT of love into the class/job. Maybe too much. Why give a class an obvious advantage such as lesser fall damage? Why can't a healer have that? Why the new class? Why not a movement speed buff to help Mnks keep up their stacks? Why just the new class? Oh, and on top of that, they don't need to worry about positionals at all.

Just my opinion that I think that SE threw a few too many bonuses/abilities in the NIN bag. A nerf to their skills/abilities like how Bard's Rain of Death worked would be nice. As it stands, correctly played NINs are just too good.

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NIN has no gap closer outside of Shukuchi which is on a 60 second cooldown and takes longer to cast then either of DRG and MNK gap closers, MNK can switch stances quite easily temporarily or shoulder tackle to keep stacks going also. So the movespeed trait is a fair one.

Fall damage is a gimmick trait that has very limited use and personally is a very lazy trait to include, but I can see from a "ninja" perspective how it fits the class. They are not simply giving ninja all the toys because its new, they have given it what it has because it fits around its playstyle and lore.

No positionals is a far trade for the class mechanic, neither melee has such and therefore has positional requirements.

Does ninja need a nerf? Not really, trick attack will likely get a virus-esque adjustment to balance encounters but not because the job is OP. It has very limited capabilities in terms of AoE and is almost solely focused on single target similar to MNK so imo it deserves to be up there with them in terms of single target parses.

People are making it seem like anyone who plays ninja will be automatically be a top dog DPS. Truth is, it's not.

Yes its a flow chart job, which job isn't?
People out there know the principles of the ninja job, playing it is a different story.

As for nerfing/boosting a job, I will still play Ninja if theres a nerf because I like the job, and its why I picked this game up 2 months ago when I said I wouldn't start another MMO after FFXI. That and I made a relic so I'm sure as hell not dumping the job...

I don't know about you, but I would be more happy to be in a group that can beat a raid than stroking my epeen numbers. Just sayin...

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Originally Posted by ShanaShirayuki

Then why not post on the account you DO play? Hiding behind an alt just invalidates the point you're trying to make.

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Well, I find the whole "I'm going to look up your account and try and shot holes in your gear/FC/whatever" to be an entirely pathetic tactic used instead of, you know, countering any point someone is making. Finely displayed by the good people here. Feel free to rely on it more, even though anyone should be able to tell based on what I've been saying that I have more experience with Ninja than someone who hasn't even unlocked Rogue, not that they'd care to admit it. Clearly when I was saying Ninja is my favorite Job in PvP, that was a lie.Oh wait, no, no it wasn't;

https://i.imgur.com/fbpKikG.jpg

Even more hilarious is that I've mostly been suggesting a PvP nerf to Raiton, because <checks leaderboard>... Yep... Other than that just a ranged reduction on Raiton, because having a ranged skill in Fuma Shuriken and a ranged skill in Raiton is fairly absurd, not that anyone has been talking about that. Still mostly a PvP inspired "nerf" though, since sniping people with Raiton, or a double Raiton (all the way across the sky) is absurd in Frontlines.

As for why I post on this account, my other account got banned on the forums for hilarious reasons (suggest our 1 year subscription bonus be a free retainer since 1 years play probably means you need the space instead of lolfree teleports, get banned) and because apparently warnings from the XI forum carry over here for lord knows what reasons.

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

but dancing edge does significantly more damage when used from the targets flank.

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Last I checked that was a translation error, but what do I know, I don't even have Rogue unlocked~ :rolleyes:
(it even got corrected in 2.41, not that it's in the patch notes)

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Originally Posted by Tribunus

It has very limited capabilities in terms of AoE and is almost solely focused on single target similar to MNK

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I wouldn't call Doton/Katon/Death Blossom very limited... Death Blossom is only 10 potency behind Wide Volley/Quick Nock, after all, and Bard doesn't even have a static +20% damage boost (unless I'm forgetting something, haven't touched the Job since 2.1). Not quite as good as Bard in terms of utility/endurance, thanks to songs, but it's head and shoulders above Monk.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Main content of 2.41 will be first Echo in SCoB ( 5% ?) and unlocking it for pug in DF
the other stuff will be bug fixes

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Thread closed

Thankfully you were right.

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Originally Posted by Adrian74

Thankfully you were right.

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Not sure why people thought this would be a patch to fix job balance issues. Dev's are still probably thinking of how to buff DRG without breaking the game. It isn't a few day process. A lot of balancing issues have to take into account before execution. I say changes for them are coming in 2.45, 2.43 at the earliest if that patch will even exist.

To people who don't want NIN to be nerfed:

play SMN in Frontlines, go fight NIN 1-1, kill 10 NINs, record a vid and upload to Youtube (noob NINs don't count... heck I'm not sure if SMN can even kill a noob NIN).

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Originally Posted by Evangela

To people who don't want NIN to be nerfed in Frontlines:

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Fixed that for you. Don't think anyone has actually been against such a thing though, more the majority don't even care to begin with. Ninja is definitely my main and I've even suggested nerfing it in Frontlines, so~

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Originally Posted by Evangela

To people who don't want NIN to be nerfed:

play SMN in Frontlines, go fight NIN 1-1, kill 10 NINs, record a vid and upload to Youtube (noob NINs don't count... heck I'm not sure if SMN can even kill a noob NIN).

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PvP is never balanced around 1v1. Figure out what your role is and be a team player. As a DoT specialist you can move from target to target contributing enormous damage without needing to fully commit to attacking that player. Try focusing on team fights instead of dueling an assassin wearing a bathrobe.

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Originally Posted by Kiara1

Yes they should, Was attacked by a ninja on my Summoner, usually I can take on most classes one vs one. The ninja killed me in3 seconds, I had enough time to apply one dot.
No other class can do that

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Oh please lol

On BLM I've melted pld (and many other classes burning CD's) down in just a few seconds. (not including start cast time of fire III because they hadn't seen me yet) magic debuff - fire III - fire 1 - (proc) fire III proc - swiftcast flare - scathe and they were dead. If I surprise the enemy and start getting my rotations off before they even start moving. they are most likely going down and going down fast. The only ones semi immune to this have been healers, which I can typically get down to under 20% health before they use abilities like benedition or other massive hp restore abilities (or reduced damage)

Pretty much any class can take down most classes if they know how to play their class, burn CDs, sometimes get lucky quick procs and know how/when to kite as needed. Its a matter of your skill vs their ability.

She's overlooking the fact that SMN is on the opposite end of the burst spectrum which lends itself hideously to one on one engagement unless you have the defense tools to make it a long term fight, which if given that SMN would become a DoT/Debuffer/Defensive/Pet Job which I think is stretching the design space a bit much.

SMN can do high damage in a team fight but ninjas always target mages first. BLM can sleep them but SMN cannot defend themselves at all. SMN is a debuffer? not really. only have Bind (with 3 secs cast time). while other jobs have instant-stun/sleep/silence/bind/slow/heavy. Blind in this game is a joke too. people still can attack with blind status.

the only way to play SMN in Frontlines is stay in the Backline but that will only work with noob enemies. experienced opponents will attack SMN first because they know how much SMN can do (and how easy SMN can be killed).

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Originally Posted by Evangela

SMN can do high damage in a team fight but ninjas always target mages first. BLM can sleep them but SMN cannot defend themselves at all. SMN is a debuffer? not really. only have Bind (with 3 secs cast time). while other jobs have instant-stun/sleep/silence/bind/slow/heavy. Blind in this game is a joke too. people still can attack with blind status.

the only way to play SMN in Frontlines is stay in the Backline but that will only work with noob enemies. experienced opponents will attack SMN first because they know how much SMN can do (and how easy SMN can be killed).

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lol? where are the healers ? in Frontlines u kill healers first o u wont kill any1 ,and most partys have 1 or 2 heals....so u need to focus both or CC 1 and focus the other , or u wont be able to kill any1.

As smn u can do a lot of dmg to lots of ppl at the same time (bane on flags ) , and a well timed Fester> ruin II > Enkindle (buffed) can 1 shot any1...(yeah it needs dots up blablabla)

u can sprint , use garuda for knockback / ifrit stun, and tridisaster is a ranged AOE root....if a melee is on u...why dont u use blizzard 2? is a pbao root....

is a uphill battle? yeah caster dont have it easy on Frontlines , but thats because they do the most dmg and from safe distance...Bards do laughable dmg on FL (outside full CD), but can disrupt caster/healers the best so is a far trade off i guess.

Frontlines is not a 1v1 feature, it is a team feature. A SMN is not meant to be charging out taking everyone on in 1v1 fisticuffs. As part of a team you work together with other classes. You do not balance the feature by making everyone able to kill everyone else in 1v1 fights, you balance it based on group vs group, team vs team.

Yes the major damage dealers will go for the healers first and casters because healers negate any damage the opposing damage dealers do and casters like BLM target groups with large scale damage or classes the use massive amounts of DOTs not just individuals which is why you team protects those at the same time as trying to take out the other teams BLM casters and healers etc.

A ninjas role in frontlines to me is hunting down sheep who separated from the safety of the pack, but when that sheep is in their pack the odds are against the ninja and the ninja can get caught off guard too or fall into traps that use the lone sheep as bait. Team sport, not free for all with everyone running off in random directions on their own. Roles still exists within those teams.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

To people who don't want NIN to be nerfed:

play SMN in Frontlines, go fight NIN 1-1, kill 10 NINs, record a vid and upload to Youtube (noob NINs don't count... heck I'm not sure if SMN can even kill a noob NIN).

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What? Frontlines is not a 1vs1 arena and SMN practically owns everything if left alone in team fights, I normally get a lot of kills with my SMN if no one keeps focus on me or distrupts me in a fight but SMN can get countered really easy with a BRD breathing down your neck.

As for NINs, is what they are supposed to do, they are the type of class that does high single burst dmg, their job is to shut down priority targets in team fights as fast as they can, if you are trying to solo a NIN as SMN you are doing it wrong, same as trying to 1vs1 a BRD with a SMN.

SMN excels at team fights most of the time. NINs are fine for me as they are now.

say what you want. NIN is overpowered against SMN, fact.

Thank god this is a PVE game then.

- passive ability to run faster all the time, with no condition (unlike Bard).
- Throwing Daggers - instant ranged attack
- Raiton - instant ranged magic attack, as powerful as Fester without having to apply 3 DOTs (just have to press 3 buttons for 3 instant skills). very well balanced? a melee class doing better magic attack than mages.
- Hide - it's easy to blame the victims for not trying to expose them 24/7. yeah, it's your fault for not doing AoE all the times.
- unlimited auto interruptions via their fast attacks - you don't have to use any skill to silence/sleep/stun the casters. just do normal attacks and you're interfering their casts infinitely.

basically Ninja is a melee class that can do ranged attack and can use magic better than mages. but they're not overpowered somehow, according to this forum users. I know it's a new job and everyone is enjoy playing it and don't want it to be nerfed.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

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You can't really pretend to win a 1 vs 1 of a caster vs a melee.... Please.

Else having a melee would be pointless... Melees vs Casters is an auto-destructive battle, they both are good against the other one, just that in different matters... Magic damage seriously injures melees, and if you attack from long distance you can easily kill them, but of course, for achieving DISTANCE you need to be in group and not going crazy to a 1 vs 1, that's madness, because melee MUST have the advantage in 1 vs 1, it only has to reach the caster and kill it.

While that's not so affordable in a group fight, melee would have to risk making distance from his healers to attack the other healers or casters, and sometimes it is not enough damage if attacking the SMN, so they have to go and attack healer first, when that happens... You have the advantage against him...

In PVP YOU CAN'T EXPECT EQUALS. You can't expect a job to have no weaknesses, because then there wouldn't be strategy at all.

I don't really pvp much but does miasma not work in pvp or something?

The heavy effect from miasma paired with the fact you get to use sprint and have swiftcast makes it seem like you're not trying very hard to get away. The ninja movement speed bonus is nowhere near as effective as sprint and if a ninja uses sprint they lose all their stopping power and you should totally obliterate them.

This game is designed around PvE so I find it unlikely that you'll ever see true balance when it comes to PvP.

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

I don't really pvp much but does miasma not work in pvp or something?

The heavy effect from miasma paired with the fact you get to use sprint and have swiftcast makes it seem like you're not trying very hard to get away. The ninja movement speed bonus is nowhere near as effective as sprint and if a ninja uses sprint they lose all their stopping power and you should totally obliterate them.

This game is designed around PvE so I find it unlikely that you'll ever see true balance when it comes to PvP.

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Yes, Heavy effect from Miasma is not available in PvP.

I know if they allow it, SMN will be too strong. but suspending it completely make SMN too weak.

as I said so many times, SMN doesn't have any useful movement debuff like the other jobs' stun/sleep/heavy. only have bind from Tri-disaster that requires 3 seconds to cast and if Swiftcast is in cool down it's almost impossible to cast it.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

Yes, Heavy effect from Miasma is not available in PvP.

I know if they allow it, SMN will be too strong. but suspending it completely make SMN too weak.

as I said so many times, SMN doesn't have any useful movement debuff like the other jobs' stun/sleep/heavy. only have bind from Tri-disaster that requires 3 seconds to cast and if Swiftcast is in cool down it's almost impossible to cast it.

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its like crimson cyclone, landslide, and shockwave dont exist for smns to use. /sarcasm

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Originally Posted by Evangela

- passive ability to run faster all the time, with no condition (unlike Bard).
- Throwing Daggers - instant ranged attack
Snipers......

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I think this is a l2p issue if you think like that, I wish you luck on your PvP matches, have fun! :D

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Originally Posted by Adrian74

You can't really pretend to win a 1 vs 1 of a caster vs a melee.... Please.

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i would say that i win 70-80% of battles against ninjas as a black mage.. if my HP is full and many abillities are up (magic shield, swiftcast sleep etc.)..

so.. i cant complain really. nin is very easy.. glass canons which can eat less damage. if you have a clue how to play a blm in pvp.

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

The ninja movement speed bonus is nowhere near as effective as sprint and if a ninja uses sprint they lose all their stopping power and you should totally obliterate them.

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Keep believing that :) Please, I mean it.

Its not like nin have abilities to instantly restore TP or anything *whistles innocently*

Believe it! *cough cough*