Coil 5 changes needed

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

dat irrefutable anecdotal evidence

I guess all the trouble I have winning fights like this one and Titan EX is merely a fabrication of my mind

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If you find Coil 5 difficult, I'd say the problem comes with lack of skill/wanting to learn its mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

If you find Coil 5 difficult, I'd say the problem comes with lack of skill/wanting to learn its mechanic.

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as you can't solo encounters, you should add "lack of 7 other capable/non lagging players" in your list. It IS a decisive factor in these encounters.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

as you can't solo encounters, you should add "lack of 7 other capable/non lagging players" in your list. It IS a decisive factor in these encounters.

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That doesn't mean the encounter in itself is difficult per say. It just means you have to find better players to do it with.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

as you can't solo encounters, you should add "lack of 7 other capable/non lagging players" in your list. It IS a decisive factor in these encounters.

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Well you can 4 man T5 (it has been done) so more like "find 3-7 other people"

But if your bringing in the short bus crew to do it that is your own fault. I'm sorry but the excuse "I'm the only person good enough willing to do it on my server is not going to fly"

You guys keep saying you can 4 man T5. I've seen one video of it done. Reminds me of Avesta in FFXI.

Post a video of YOU doing it before pretending you could.

Call me a scrub because I came back a few months too late if you want, but my old FFXI LS was one of the first to figure out citadel buster before ToAU came out.

You don't know any of us, quit pretending you do. Quit pretending you could 4 man this, or make a video showing us you can.

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Originally Posted by polyhedral

Call me a scrub because I came back a few months too late if you want, but my old FFXI LS was one of the first to figure out citadel buster before ToAU came out.

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Sorry to break it to you but actually, A LOT of people had Proto-Ultima figured out before ToAU came out. Did you really think your LS was the first one to figure out to stun at the end of the cast ? The go to strategy for most LS when facing a new mechanic was to see if you could toss a RDM/DRK and Chainspell Stun it then adapt if you could not.

That doesn't change the fact the encounter is easy: see green blinker ? Move. /focustarget Twintania and when you see Twister, move around without going close to party members and backtracking. How hard is that, really ?

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Originally Posted by polyhedral

You guys keep saying you can 4 man T5. I've seen one video of it done. Reminds me of Avesta in FFXI.

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It just shows you how outdated Twintania is.

With echo and inflated ilevels, Twintania no longer cares if you are playing your class efficiently. You could solely focus on the mechanics while playing a butchered version of your job and clear it.
Hell, on my clear we had a dragoon that stood out of melee range the entire time after snakes. He did not do any damage the rest of the fight, just stood away from everyone else and avoided Twisters and Liquid Hell.

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Originally Posted by zar

It just shows you how outdated Twintania is.

With echo and inflated ilevels, Twintania no longer cares if you are playing your class efficiently. You could solely focus on the mechanics while playing a butchered version of your job and clear it.
Hell, on my clear we had a dragoon that stood out of melee range the entire time after snakes. He did not do any damage the rest of the fight, just stood away from everyone else and avoided Twisters and Liquid Hell.

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More like shows how powerful i110 characters are compared to i70 to i90 characters. 4 i110 characters output at least as much damage as a party of 8 i80s.

Twin's non-number based difficulty has not changed. Need for Conflag/Fireball awareness has not changed. Need for Divebomb awareness has not changed. Need for movement path awareness for Twisters has not changed.

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That's great but there isn't currently a savage t5 and until there is the point stands.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

yeah nvm, I misread the quoted message

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Guess my original message was not so much clear: I am ok with T5 nerfed, if we also get at same time the T5 in its original glory.

Wait you see T6-7 hehe..

Let be serious, T6-7 in PF is only good to spiridbound your gear... Because on first wipe on the actual boss, someone will rage and quit.

Work as intended. (Seriously DEV, Remove the trash, or put a Shortcut, if player want to spiritbound they can...)

We had someone go in new blind into t5 the other day and another one that had atleast some experience(up to DBs). We got to 6% on the first try. So yes if you are a competent player that can read the situation and is willing to listen to a quick crash course on some of the mechanics you can beat it.

The coordination is the biggest issue really. My group rammed at t5 for probably good 14 hours before we managed the dbs-snakes-dbs transition - this is the hardest part of the fight(unless you are melee heavy).
DBs already are reduced to a non instaKO to a RNGbased KO. You can easily take one or even two to the face and if RNG is good on you(or you know your positioning you won't hit the wall and KO).
And on DBs themselves. You need to run the moment you see the focus bar appear NOT wait for the rest of the group to move. Basically your eyes are GLUED to where the focus bar appears at that point. And react instantly. No hesitation, no just one more hit, spell, etc...

Biggest hurdle after that is getting people to coordinate WHERE they will be during twisters. Easiest is split the field into 120 degree arcs with A,B,C and then go what 2 people will be standing around A what two around B and what two around C(we actually had to do this more than once cause people kept running to the same spots to often). And by that I mean should be near enough the mark so that all pairs have enough room to move about while at the same time not run into eachother.

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Originally Posted by SnaggleFox

What do you guys expect to happen after you clear T5 with a DF group? You can't DF T6-13. You'll need a static for that. So stop whining and form a static for turn 5 already. It's stupid easy to beat. Or just stop caring about Coil because if you can't put in the effort to beat T5 then there's no point in continuing to try.

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well that reminds of some peeps in my fc similar to OP in which they DO form a static after each being carried through t5 and t6, decided they're genius and skipped t7 and t8, jumping straight into t9 only for them to wonder why they can't pass t9 1st phase!

Literally the only "difficult" mechanics in this fight are Divebombs and Twisters. The rest of the fight is an absolute joke if you can learn to deal with these two very simple mechanics. Divebombs, just get in the pit...see the mark? Run out of the pit. Rinse/repeat. That's it. Twisters. See that cast? Run around, just don't back track or run into anyone else. Easy.

Stop using the duty finder then complain when you end up with a team of chimps then claim you can't beat it because it's "too hard." Throw up a party finder and don't be afraid to kick people who clearly don't know what they are doing and aren't willing to learn. That said, I agree with what others have said. If you can't deal with the only two marginally difficult mechanics of T5 you're gonna get even angrier when you try to hit T6 and T7, much less 8 and 9. T5 is a walk in the park in comparison.

With coil, what you learn from a previous turn helps you in the next turns. Final coil, the mechanics are pretty much copies of mechanics from previous fights. Which is one of the reasons it was cleared so quick. Raids are like crossword puzzles, when you learn how the writer thinks in regards to their puzzles it makes solving future ones easier. The same applies to raids.

My static, everything we learnt from progressing through coil 1 and 2 came together for turn 9, which is the turn we cleared with the least practice on. Also gave us the motor skills to pass turn 10 also.

In other words, if you don't take the time to learn the mechanics from whichever turn you are stuck on. If it is removed so you don't have to or you get "carried" then you will be in exactly the same spot, just on the next turn. All those complaining now about turn 5, will just be saying the same about turn 6.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

In other words, if you don't take the time to learn the mechanics from whichever turn you are stuck on. If it is removed so you don't have to or you get "carried" then you will be in exactly the same spot, just on the next turn. All those complaining now about turn 5, will just be saying the same about turn 6.

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This. Also even though in T6 some of the mechanics are a bit more forgiving than T5 (aka getting hit by bouquet or not immediately realising that you are tethered is not as bad as placing divebombs into the whole party or getting hit by twister), it's way more stuff to handle simultaneously since most mechanics carry over into the next phase. In T5 the only thing that carries over is death senctence, everything else is served to the player in pieces, one by one, which is way easier in terms of general awareness and multitasking.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

In other words, if you don't take the time to learn the mechanics from whichever turn you are stuck on. If it is removed so you don't have to or you get "carried" then you will be in exactly the same spot, just on the next turn. All those complaining now about turn 5, will just be saying the same about turn 6.

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Pretty much exactly this. People want the rewards the content offers but most won't put in the work to do it...they just want it made easy for them so they don't have to learn.

Final coil out, people still wiping and complaining about T5.

Yeah I'm gonna be "that" guy. If T5 is still too difficult for someone and their group at the current Ilvl then give up on raiding coil. As others have mentioned before T5 is a pebble on your way

Whilst T7 is a mountain. Either be dedicated to learning mechanics (and you'll easily down T5 in a day or two) or don't.

Also sry about that double post.

Tbh this kinda proves why SE should have fixed ADS enrage method, as it was there to teach group coordination and un-tunnelvisioning for individual level. ADS was imo alot harder than Twintania because if one person screwed rot passing it was mostlikely insta raid wipe, where in T5 there was just a divebomb that could cause same effect, rest just killed a single person(well maybe twister if you wanted to take someone with you)that still didnt meant insta wipe.

Went back into T5 in the first time in ages to help a few people through... OMG duty finder does not work for there at all lol. Divebombs just plain destroy groups, and thats after 4 or 5 wipes teaching people how to manage conflags.

Divebombs are only hard because of the decision to lock down view distance. If we could zoom out to see more of the arena, fewer people would be hit by divebombs. The biggest issue is folks just can't see where she is at\is facing and thus we come up with strategies like hanging in the nook to force her into one direction. It's actually kind of sad that encounters themselves aren't really that challenging, but the interface pretty much guarantees that many of your players will struggle. Add the occasional lag spike to it (because you all have to be perfectly in sync to make it in and out of that nook in time) and yea... Even players who have banged their head against this ad naseum will have the occasional "whoops" moment.

Really, the content at this point is superseded by not only the second wing, but now the FINAL wing as well. If they aren't going to let us have some better control over our UI and the zoom distance, then perhaps it's time to cut that phase down a little. It's the one that folks seem to struggle with the most for various reasons.

I'll just say this - the difficulty of Coil 5 (even pre-Echo) has always paled in comparison to the difficulty of finding a competent / available group to make attempts with, for anyone excepting hardcore gamers. Got a job or a family? Good luck working your schedule around 8 other people. If you're in school it's a bit easier, but it's still not a trivial task.

That is horrible, horrible game design, no matter how you slice it. The primary difficulty in an MMO in the year 2014 should always come from the fight itself - not from gathering people to do said fight. The group size for these encounters (8) is both too big and too small; it's big enough that maintaining / forming a party is difficult and unpleasant, and small enough that individual mistakes still trainwreck the entire group. SE absolutely needs to learn from this with the expansion, or they're going to continue fielding these types of complaints from a significant portion of their player base. Their current approach is also largely responsible for the toxic DF environment, because the small group size (but crucial individual roles) means people are very likely to leave quickly and/or begin harassing each other the instant someone screws up. Terrible approach on SE's part - they should be embarrassed.

In regards to the OP's suggestion specifically - moving to 16 people would be an option to minimize the importance of everyone doing their job, but I'd rather see a move to party sizes of 4-6. That's a lot easier for people with actual lives to set up schedules around.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

Divebombs are only hard because of the decision to lock down view distance. If we could zoom out to see more of the arena, fewer people would be hit by divebombs.

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If this was the real reasoning, people wouldn't get hit by Levi EX's dives, since you CAN scroll out to see (and HEAR) that entire arena.
Just because you can do something doesn't mean people will. For example, there are still people using the "walking tank" controls that make you move slower when you move backwards, which is suicide for raiding.

One of the BIGGEST issues with players is, when they fail, they don't look at the situation and say "How/why did we fail?" They just chastise the other members and try again, making the same mistakes.

We need a new mechanic where Twintania has a stroke and dies after 3 minutes

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Originally Posted by LegendWait

We need a new mechanic where Twintania has a stroke and dies after 3 minutes

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players would still die when the corpse falls on the ground, and in the 3 minutes before then, and claim it's too hard.
Oh don't you give me that THEY WOULD FIND A WAY!
Was in ST groups this week that wiped 5 times to scylla. my hopes for DF raiders is low.

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And on DBs themselves. You need to run the moment you see the focus bar appear NOT wait for the rest of the group to move. Basically your eyes are GLUED to where the focus bar appears at that point. And react instantly. No hesitation, no just one more hit, spell, etc...

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Already do this, still usually get hit. There's no apparent rhyme or reason to it, even though there obviously must be. The time between when the focus target / marker appears and the time the attack happens is ludicrously short.

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If this was the real reasoning, people wouldn't get hit by Levi EX's dives, since you CAN scroll out to see (and HEAR) that entire arena.

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See, no, you definitely can't.

Hear, that depends a lot on the user's sound system.

I'd like to see 2nd coil added to the duty finder so I can at least practice without having to be attached to a static just now.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

I'd like to see 2nd coil added to the duty finder so I can at least practice without having to be attached to a static just now.

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It is being added to duty finder. Just not right now. I think it'll be added in 2.45 (maybe earlier).

I'd rather spend my time looking/creating a static instead of constantly wiping to anything in DF.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

That is horrible, horrible game design, no matter how you slice it. The primary difficulty in an MMO in the year 2014 should always come from the fight itself - not from gathering people to do said fight.

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For some reason you think the difficulty of the fight and gathering the players are not related. The more difficult the fight the harder it's going to be to gather players that can beat it.

This is a multiplayer game and in a multiplayer game is the performance of the whole team that matters and not just your performance and no it is not horrible, horrible design. It's exactly how a multiplayer game should work.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

Snip

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You don't even need to zoom out, that's the thing. Everybody just gather in one spot, see green blinker, everybody moves to the right, count to 2, then go back to the initial spot. You're just finding excuses at this point.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

That is horrible, horrible game design, no matter how you slice it

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Let me recommend single player games for you then, so you don't have to deal with teammates.

I wouldn't change a thing about T5. I don't consider myself among the top players, but I consider myself competent. After months of on and off toil with other ex fights to break up the tedium, I downed T5 yesterday! Joined a PF created by another person who was in the same boat I was. Knew the fight well enough, was just looking for the clear. Fights like these reward practice and persistence.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

I'd like to see 2nd coil added to the duty finder so I can at least practice without having to be attached to a static just now.

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Agreed. +1

Almost every single PF group has if die=kick, no noobs, soldiery bonus=kick, 100% experience required, link item on entry and the list goes on and on with people being refused entry into (almost) all PF's. The irony is the party leader who made the PF often does not expect to get kicked if they die or mess up but happy to kick everyone else who does...when and if does get kicked they tend to throw hissy fit despite it being in the rules they themselves listed for the run. They also quite often never bother to prove as party leader they have item/achievement too but expect everyone else to do so.

Making own PF is a way around it if you have a million years to wait for group to fill up (if fills up at all before the amount of time you have to play for an evening ends because sadly far too many people avoid helping new players to learn content) and will still get idiots who rage quit though, try to vote kick or vote abandon after a wipe or two or leave when see soldiery bonus pop up even if in the description says training session with no rage quitters and new players welcome as long as read guide or watched video on fight.

I think personally people are often put off/feel as though their only option is training in DF because of the elitism, ignorance (which explained in a previous post) and arrogance of most listings in PF plus hypocrisy sometimes of PF leaders which puts many people off taking part in PF until they have done the places already which is unfortunate. It does not apply to all PF groups but does seem to be the case for most in one way or another.

So I am in favor of adding 2nd coil to DF too without the need for full pre-made before can enter...if they want to avoid using PF of which I can see why people would then it just would give people more options as to how to take part in the content but does not make the content any easier once get in and as such does not dumb down the content just because entered it in a different way.

I was bit surprised they never made 2nd coil open to DF in 2.4 given final coil had come with it so 2nd coil has now become old content. I am guessing in future patch or expansion 2nd coil will be added to DF but should of been added in 2.4.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Agreed. +1

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Okay, so let's say you could queue up for Turn 6 & 7. Notoriously easy stuff.

Pray tell, what exactly might you practice? How to increase your tolerance for sitting in long queues only to abruptly end a dungeon with a vote abandon? How to watch someone do something wrong over and over again so badly that you can't even see another phase of a fight without getting irritated?

I have no doubt it will eventually be added, but it really won't be all that you might believe it's cracked up to be.

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Originally Posted by Delorean

Okay, so let's say you could queue up for Turn 6 & 7. Notoriously easy stuff.

Pray tell, what exactly might you practice? How to increase your tolerance for sitting in long queues only to abruptly end a dungeon with a vote abandon? How to watch someone do something wrong over and over again so badly that you can't even see another phase of a fight without getting irritated?

I have no doubt it will eventually be added, but it really won't be all that you might believe it's cracked up to be.

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rather than DF, I'd like to seen echo on T6-9. blah blah blah not needed but easier to catch up and then go tackle T10-13

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Originally Posted by Exstal

...why not both!

It takes too long to kill even with people who've cleared many times. I would like that 20% echo to farm turns super fast.

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oh sure both. But if something has to come first, I'd like echo before DF ^_^

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

rather than DF, I'd like to seen echo on T6-9.

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...why not both!

It takes too long to kill even with people who've cleared many times. I would like that 20% echo to farm turns super fast.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

...why not both!

It takes too long to kill even with people who've cleared many times. I would like that 20% echo to farm turns super fast.

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Even with 20% echo buff it'd still take a long time to farm T9. Way too much time in the fight is not lost upon DPS, but on mechanics. The wait in between drop of first green comets and golem spawns. The wait after golem deaths till new comet drops. Once more the wait between green comet drops and golem spawns. The wait for nael to come crashing down again. The heavensfall durations. The duration of divebomb phases. And may even have missed some elements still. Ultimately there's probably around 2 minutes of non-DPS phases like that in the fight, of which easily half of that time could be nibbled off and still make the fight perfectly doable for farm groups.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

I was bit surprised they never made 2nd coil open to DF in 2.4 given final coil had come with it so 2nd coil has now become old content. I am guessing in future patch or expansion 2nd coil will be added to DF but should of been added in 2.4.

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It isn't in the DF? Why am I seeing it in the DF? Or do you have to clear T5 first? If that's the case, T7 and T9 in particular are much more demanding skill-wise than T5. You have about 2-3 things you need to watch for at all times for each turn. T5 tends to ease you into the multi-part mechanics. 1st set of DB nothing else is going on, just look for the green mark, out/in. 2nd set, now you gotta watch snakes and for mark, but it's not that bad. T6-9 you have to watch for buffs, debuffs, and a lot more marks at any given time.

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Originally Posted by AiChyan

I never saw a df group pass conflags lol

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my first clear was with DF. Took me about 10hrs of just constantly queueing (on DRG >.> ) but I got it done. I even asked the group I cleared with if i was the last person on an FC run and it turned out that 5/8 just got there first clear. The myth of the DF being useless for clears is just that... its a myth. It definitely takes more time to find a group on the DF but I just went into it with the mentality that u posted earlier... I'm going to get to X phase this time, and then the next, etc.