Massive fail by Matsui - telling melee range to suck it up for not getting invites

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Originally Posted by Aion

yeah I also confused with his statement



can someone explain to me his logic in this statement?

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He's been beating that dead horse since the patch notes for 1.18 went live before anyone even tried it.

You always have to keep in mind that there's still improvements made to the battle and class system. While SE is tweaking some stuff here and there it's ok to actually give feedback on what's working and what not.

Ranged Attackers will always have an advantage over the close range melee's. That won't change at any given moment.

Imagine a fight between a bowman and a swordsman. Just a simple 1 vs 1. The swordsman actually have to get in close range to deal damage and the bowman has to keep distance. This means both have to run in circles over and over, they'll never reach one of them if they both want to damage the opposite person.

In terms of balancing issues it would be an acceptable way to improve close range melee damage and decrease ranged attacks a little bit. Not too much because the "solo-statement" is valid.

I also like the idea to add some buffs or debuff attacks to the archers. So their reduced damage is getting a kick with those buffs oder debuffs.
But if they add.. lets say a group-buff via a WS which temporarily rises attacking speed, damage, acc or w/e.. the close range melee's will complain about not having some nifty buffs as well, I bet. Just speculating here.

Just wait what SE is coming up for the battle and class improvements in 1.19 and 1.20. Maybe the world will look completly different after that, again.

Just don't whine too much. I don't want that the same thing happen to SE which happend to Blizzard. Kids moaning on the forum "nerf class xyz", it's getting nerfed and other players will call their class to weak and other's too strong and etc etc. Balancing is a process which will happen all the time, of course, but not when a majority of players are just whining. I don't want that. I always liked it to play "hard-to-play" classes which might be not so good than the rest, because it's a challange to do so. And if you're good at your job it's complelty rewarding.

Just wait and show some patience, is all we can do for now.

Oh and.. if they ever add some DPS Meter shit, where everyone claims "I gotz 1k moar dps than you lolz, you suck, l2p" then I'm definetaly gonna quit. I can understand that more DPS means faster and maybe easier fights, but completly ditching the other people will just destroy the community feelings.

Last word on this....... GIMMEH MAH BLUE MAGE OMGZ =D

Here are your options:

A. Get good melee players, you'd be surprised what someone who knows their job can do.
B. Practice what you preach and do melee-heavy runs.
C. Stop hanging around idiots that realize as new content is released and updates are made roles will change (i.e. THM tanks).
D. Post yet another complaint thread about the same crap everyone's been talking about ever since the day after 1.18.

Ah, D. The choice has been made. Is this like your 5th or 6th post crying about the update?

edit: Not talking about speed runs since as it stands they're just a bit of extra content.

Well said Neptune. Rng is an amazingly fun job.

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Originally Posted by Zkieve

I always tought of rangers in most games to be overpowered compared to reality simply becouse they had to buy ammo.
Nerf arc atack and increase melee atack.
All fixed, arc already have the distance advantage , should not get ALSO the damage advantage they now have.

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I still don't understand how Blizzard's design team got the ranged vs melee thing working relatively well (Hunters don't trump melee unless the boss has a specific mechanic that is harder on melee than on ranged...or through pure DPS discrepancies, which we haven't really seen since TBC), yet SE after a decade with Ranger's issues still hasn't learned how to make it work.

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Would your solution be for them to drop the MP cost on heals? Or make the boss more melee friendly? Either way, favoring ranged attacks is a type of strategy, and strategies are more valuable, in my opinion, than tank-n'-spank boss fights.

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Strategies become valuable when your actions during the actual encounter determine whether you win or not, NOT what your raid comp is before you even set foot inside.

I dont understand why people talk about ranged advantage. There is no range advantage at the moment because every mob has a ranged attack.
Maybe in parties there is one but then the tank is doing his job good. Srsly what else should archer do other then the most dmg? thats his job!

Sure this game still need a lot of balancing.

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Originally Posted by Raze

Here are your options:

A. Get good melee players, you'd be surprised what someone who knows their job can do.
B. Practice what you preach and do melee-heavy runs.
C. Stop hanging around idiots that realize as new content is released and updates are made roles will change (i.e. THM tanks).
D. Post yet another complaint thread about the same crap everyone's been talking about ever since the day after 1.18.

Ah, D. The choice has been made. Is this like your 5th or 6th post crying about the update?

edit: Not talking about speed runs since as it stands they're just a bit of extra content.

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For some people, finding "good players" is as slim as finding any players at all.

The tags for this thread are gold.

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Originally Posted by Saiph

I dont understand why people talk about ranged advantage. There is no range advantage at the moment because every mob has a ranged attack.
Maybe in parties there is one but then the tank is doing his job good. Srsly what else should archer do other then the most dmg? thats his job!

Sure this game still need a lot of balancing.

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way to reply without reading the thread at all.
Ever heard of something called Area of Effect?

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Originally Posted by Aion

yeah I also confused with his statement



can someone explain to me his logic in this statement?

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Well, you'll find plenty of people seeing right through Nep's nonsense and calling him out on it (as they've done here, and other threads). As far as finding logic in his arguments? Well, you can't find something that isn't there.

What you will fine, consistently, is a lot of distortion of reality (like in his OP here), twisting, ignoring and outright invention of facts, and even cases of him contradicting himself from one thread to another. Whatever it takes for him to argue something that caters specifically to *him*; though he'll claim it's wanted by "everyone", and those who disagree with him "just don't understand!"

At the end of the day, Nep's posts tend to serve as a great source of fiction, and some laughs. I would never recommend looking to them for an accurate representation of the state of things, nor the "wants of the community at large", however.

Fortunately for us, I'm sure the moderators and community folk here can see through his (and some others') self-serving nonsense as well as we do.

they already said on 1.18a notes they going to increase melee damage of most ws.
This thread is pointless now me think.

I believe the Square Enix Dev Team more than likely done this without a party full of archers.
You can bet the tried different setups.
Knew how the boss worked.
Strategised to take him down.

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way to reply without reading the thread at all.
Ever heard of something called Area of Effect?

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so you want mage and archer to get hit by aoe attacks too? maybe this will happen sometime depending on the aoe move.
but if they get hit by an aoe that almost kills the melee classes then mages and archer will probably die?

but thats my opinion and i didnt see any party fights so far and im far away from them too probably. neither have i see any content in the higher lvls.

Strange... I didn't get parties at the patch's day1, but when someone in the forums told that the Marauder can tank properly, or even better (no sh*t), then it was cheesecake easy to search for one.

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Originally Posted by Firon

actually PUG can still tank just fine for me, if anything it is much more easy now.

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Absolutely true, but ask yourself this: If you had to choose between a PGL and GLA to tank the darkhold, what would you choose? If you had both PGL and GLA geared and rank 50 and were asked to tank, which class would you choose?

Even MRD can tank just fine if you know what you're doing, but nothing can tank like a GLA. If it's SE's intention to make GLA the only dedicated tank class, that's fine. But what makes MRD, PGL, and LNC unique from each other besides the weapon, and an ability or two? Before it was kinda like this:

GLA: defensive tank
PGL: offensive tank
MRD: crowd control melee
LNC: support melee
ARC: ranged damage
THM: arcane magic
CON: elemental magic

Looks to me like Yoshi-P's "class uniqueness" was already in the game. Now this is the direction it appears to be heading to me:

GLA: tank
CON: healer/support
THM: nuke/debuff/DoT
ARC: ranged attack
MRD: melee
PGL: melee
LNC: melee

Yes, it isn't this cut and dry yet, but as I said, it looks like this is the direction we're headed in.

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Originally Posted by Zkieve

I always tought of rangers in most games to be overpowered compared to reality simply becouse they had to buy ammo.
Nerf arc atack and increase melee atack.
All fixed, arc already have the distance advantage , should not get ALSO the damage advantage they now have.

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Ranger/Archer is supposed to be overpowered. Its pretty much the melee equivalent of Black Mage.

The problem is less with the game design and more with people -- its been proven time and time again than any set up can beat the dungeons. GLA tanks, MRD tanks, PUG tanks, LNC/MRD/PUG DDs, CON healers, THM healers -- anything works as long as its properly balanced.

Just because the Healer/Archer/Tank set up is the most efficient doesn't mean there's a desperate need of change or to nerf Archer -- they just need to design future content in a way that grants other DDs an equal chance.

I think they need to look at melee & ranged balance a little differently. It would be possible to balance them to deal equal amounts of damage. Some argue that ARC should deal more damage for having to purchase arrows, yet ARC are also given the benefit of attacking at a distance whereas Melee have to expose themselves to damaging attacks. While the ARC takes little to no damage at all and will be less likely to suffer gear damage, the melees will be taking more damage and are more likely to need repairs. So the cost in resources may be more balanced that we all like to let on.

The ARC also have the added advantage of nearly always being in range of their opponent, while the melee sometimes may have to move away to save themselves.

Obviously a small advantage would have to be given to the melees in mobile fights to ensure they do equal damage. But, given any disparity in the resource costs, a completely equal footing, regardless of movement, could be acceptable.

Arc becomes Bard, loses its damage potential in parties, obtain increased buffing potential in parties, retains its dps superiority while used as a class.

Melees become heavy dps jobs, obtain increased damage potential in parties, become the king of dps while used as a job, retains tanking superiority over arc while used as a class.

I don't see a problem with ARC. I can see an issue arising with BLM however. It'll be a CC job, but nuking leaves something to be desired still. They need to figure out something else for that issue.

1: FFXIV only currently has mid game content until R50 cap is raised in 1st or 2nd expansion

2: Stop jumping on the band wagon and blaming MP cost. I've played both Mage classes to 50 prior to the regen patch and even since the mp cost increase patch: there's no problem/ just more tactics/learn how to spiritbind/soughspeak, etc.

3: the ogre can and has been killed by competent melee parties: it requires strategy and a well developed sense of the fight.

4: in support if the above: geography and battle regimens are required to make the fight quicker in order to save mages MP

The problem with most FFXIV players today is they don't BR and the mages are too spoiled and whiny. The battle system is headed in a good direction.

Here's the main issue with range/archer: they exploit BR due to being the only DoW with a insanely fast normal attack cooldown, thus faster defense down BRs with nearly no downtime.

Granted there are some NM fights that exclusively require Archer: Uraeus, etc.

SE does need to strategize better aoe avoidance mechanisms for melees. Positioning and abilities should be factored in a more concentrated manner.

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Originally Posted by AreeyaJaidee

1: FFXIV only currently has mid game content until R50 cap is raised in 1st or 2nd expansion

2: Stop jumping on the band wagon and blaming MP cost. I've played both Mage classes to 50 prior to the regen patch and even since the mp cost increase patch: there's no problem/ just more tactics/learn how to spiritbind/soughspeak, etc.

3: the ogre can and has been killed by competent melee parties: it requires strategy and a well developed sense of the fight.

4: in support if the above: geography and battle regimens are required to make the fight quicker in order to save mages MP

The problem with most FFXIV players today is they don't BR and the mages are too spoiled and whiny. The battle system is headed in a good direction.

Here's the main issue with range/archer: they exploit BR due to being the only DoW with a insanely fast normal attack cooldown, thus faster defense down BRs with nearly no downtime.

Granted there are some NM fights that exclusively require Archer: Uraeus, etc.

SE does need to strategize better aoe avoidance mechanisms for melees. Positioning and abilities should be factored in a more concentrated manner.

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1) content is content
2) mp costs arent the problem, our mages havent had an issue with it, the only real change is you have to manage it now instead of blowing through it
3) the biggest issue is his main aoe that hits all around him, but its manageable if you arent taking lower ranked people up to him(as they take more dmg due to their rank alone)
4) this is just obvious and its amazing how many people dont know they exist still

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

1) content is content
2) mp costs arent the problem, our mages havent had an issue with it, the only real change is you have to manage it now instead of blowing through it
3) the biggest issue is his main aoe that hits all around him, but its manageable if you arent taking lower ranked people up to him(as they take more dmg due to their rank alone)
4) this is just obvious and its amazing how many people dont know they exist still

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1: was directed at someone in particular

I guess you're agreeing with my post with additions nearly similar to my post?

But yes people are making too big of a deal with all this. A lot of people agree Archer needs to be nerfd though

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Originally Posted by AreeyaJaidee

1: was directed at someone in particular

I guess you're agreeing with my post with additions nearly similar to my post?

But yes people are making too big of a deal with all this. A lot of people agree Archer needs to be nerfd though

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yeah i was agreeing/commenting to add onto it

i tend to do that sometimes :D

It is not the dev teams problem. This happens in every MMO. Players get lazy and just want a bunch of ranged attack. You can enter and defeat the R45 dungeon just fine with no Archers and using other melee. All they gotta do is pay attention and they can get up close and melee the bosses just fine. Sadly, a lot of players are to....errrrr... ADD to pay attention so it ends up just being less stressful to bring in an Archer who you don't have to worry about for the most part.

And, whichever job is considered the "best" will always be the one everyone cries for a nerf on. Everyone wants to be the hero and to be playing what is considered the strongest class so If it's not Archer, its gonna be another class everyone wants nerfed.

Only "massive fail" I see is from the OP. Good job completely misconstruing and misrepresenting the content of an unofficial translation to try and personally attack a developer.

This is as much a problem with players being closed minded as it is with the devs. In time I think people will work out how melees can fit into the battle, I know linkshells on my server are already doing so. I think that 1.19 will see some adjustments to MP costs, as in letter 15 Yoshi mentioned they may have been a little harsh in that regard.

I think that they need to change how the hate system work by making it as the more melee/front line/tank classes you have, the better hate control you can help the support/range classes.

Now, because the hate system is count toward each person individually, so only 1 GLA is enough. There is nothing better when you have 2x GLA or many MRDs,PUGs, because they don't boost emity to each other at all.

If they can make it so that many melee classes gather and gain bonus emity toward melee team and make Mages become safer to heal. then yes, multiple front line classes will be a welcome in battle. So, I hope they realize this, make it as team emity instead of just individual.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

yeah i was agreeing/commenting to add onto it

i tend to do that sometimes :D

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:D /hugs~!

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Originally Posted by Zkieve

I always tought of rangers in most games to be overpowered compared to reality simply becouse they had to buy ammo.
Nerf arc atack and increase melee atack.
All fixed, arc already have the distance advantage , should not get ALSO the damage advantage they now have.

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Archers have to buy ammo and they can't take more than a couple of hits. In exchange for that they have higher damage. It's their one contribution to a party. PUG/LNC/MRD all bring other things to the groups aside from DD like tanking or LNC increases TP generation for example. If PUG/LNC/MRD could outdamage ARC while being able to wear armor, have higher HP and survivability, bring abilities that boost the whole PTs performance then what the hell is the perk of using ARC?

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Originally Posted by Kensei

Archers have to buy ammo and they can't take more than a couple of hits. In exchange for that they have higher damage. It's their one contribution to a party. PUG/LNC/MRD all bring other things to the groups aside from DD like tanking or LNC increases TP generation for example. If PUG/LNC/MRD could outdamage ARC while being able to wear armor, have higher HP and survivability, bring abilities that boost the whole PTs performance then what the hell is the perk of using ARC?

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Ranged attack outside if AoE.

If the Archer has skill: he would know all the required abilities to avoid getting hit at all: (traits like Out if Sight; Chameleon,etc are all natural Arc mechanics designed to help Arc live)

Also: Arc already has the lowest cooldowns PLUS overdone damage

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Originally Posted by Alise

I think that they need to change how the hate system work by making it as the more melee/front line/tank classes you have, the better hate control you can help the support/range classes.

Now, because the hate system is count toward each person individually, so only 1 GLA is enough. There is nothing better when you have 2x GLA or many MRDs,PUGs, because they don't boost emity to each other at all.

If they can make it so that many melee classes gather and gain bonus emity toward melee team and make Mages become safer to heal. then yes, multiple front line classes will be a welcome in battle. So, I hope they realize this, make it as team emity instead of just individual.

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Hint; mages can use enmity reduction traits like Out of Sight and abilities like chameleon, decoy, soughspeak 1/2, etc.

Hint #2: Archers have the ability to steal other party members enmity

HiBy #3: Archers have an ability to erase enmity called Chamelon...

Once again, the fault isn't on SE; just players that expect to be handfed the game as a easy to digest tv dinner. Play and learn the game instead of complaining :)

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Originally Posted by AreeyaJaidee

Ranged attack outside if AoE.

If the Archer has skill: he would know all the required abilities to avoid getting hit at all: (traits like Out if Sight; Chameleon,etc are all natural Arc mechanics designed to help Arc live)

Also: Arc already has the lowest cooldowns PLUS overdone damage

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A skilled Arc will never get hate from the tank that is correct and the same applies to all DD. My point is after the multishot nerf Arc damage is where it needs to be.

People claiming Arc damage needs further nerf don't understand that the damage is not the reason other DDs don't get invites, it is because they can stay away from AoE. The dungeon can be and has been cleared by all classes but people who lack skill or can't strategize just ask for Arcs to clear it in easy mode. This is not the dev team's fault. Stop complaining and get a competent group to clear it with.

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Originally Posted by Saiph

I dont understand why people talk about ranged advantage. There is no range advantage at the moment because every mob has a ranged attack.
Maybe in parties there is one but then the tank is doing his job good. Srsly what else should archer do other then the most dmg? thats his job!

Sure this game still need a lot of balancing.

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That's the thing though, Archer shouldn't be doing the most damage. Ranged classes should do less damage for the advantage they have of range. The range gives them the advantage of not getting hit by most attacks in group settings. I don't think anyone's really worried about solo here.

The job of an archer is to do damage yes but they shouldn't outshine all the close-range War classes while being able to stand far away and out of danger. If they do more damage than anyone else and take the least damage, why wouldn't everyone use them? That's where the problem is, they need a Con to all the classes Pros. And yes part of the problem is their damage. If close-range War classes did more damage there might be some incentive to bring them over Archers as you take a chance on survivability for more damage.

The only downside of playing an Archer is consumable ammo and even then arrows are pretty easy to come by. Hell in my LS all any Archer needs to do is ask and they'll be supplied with stacks of arrows, they're not hard to make.

Edit: Don't know why people have started bringing up enmity. That's hardly any kind of a problem for most competent players. Accomplice, Quelling Strike, Out of Sight, Chameleon, etc... If the tank knows how to hold hate and the party knows how to manage hate there should be 0 problems with it.

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Originally Posted by Kensei

A skilled Arc will never get hate from the tank that is correct and the same applies to all DD. My point is after the multishot nerf Arc damage is where it needs to be.

People claiming Arc damage needs further nerf don't understand that the damage is not the reason other DDs don't get invites, it is because they can stay away from AoE. The dungeon can be and has been cleared by all classes but people who lack skill or can't strategize just ask for Arcs to clear it in easy mode. This is not the dev team's fault. Stop complaining and get a competent group to clear it with.

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I wasn't "complaining" i was telling YOU what else Archer had to offer besides damage because your main point was IF SE nerfs Arc then what would they have left? Thus my answer :)

Stay calm lol

Didn't they announce 1.18a increasing the DMG for PGL/LNC/MRD's ws's/attacks today? This should and could even the playing field. A little position work and any job can be effective in the darkhold. Many groups are lazy and don't want mele dps but if you find a good LS you can go on any job. Even on betraal a LNC vs ARC argument is pretty even, the LNC can solo a skelly easily with some support skills where the arc NEEDS a secondary healer.

1 easy adjustment that all classes need and would help end this ARC or GTFO debate would be heavy dmg penatly and boost for weapon types vs mobs. I really wish BLUNT made a much bigger difference vs bones, and piercing/slashing did next to nothing. this way you would need a pgl for the bones portion of betraal. Would help with party diversification.

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Originally Posted by AreeyaJaidee

I wasn't "complaining" i was telling YOU what else Archer had to offer besides damage because your main point was IF SE nerfs Arc then what would they have left? Thus my answer :)

Stay calm lol

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When I said people complaining I meant in general. And well you didn't mention anything that Arcs bring aside from damage. Out of Sight and Chameleon don't add anything to the group's performance and Chameleon isn't even needed if the Arc is skilled.

I'm calmed, it's hard to express a tone with text. It may sound like I'm pissed but I'm not lol.

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Originally Posted by Kensei

When I said people complaining I meant in general. And well you didn't mention anything that Arcs bring aside from damage. Out of Sight and Chameleon don't add anything to the group's performance and Chameleon isn't even needed if the Arc is skilled.

I'm calmed, it's hard to express a tone with text. It may sound like I'm pissed but I'm not lol.

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It's not just the damage though. The job of a damage dealing class is to do damage yes, Archer is one of them. The reason it has such an advantage is that it can deal comparable or greater damage than other War classes at a range, and thus taking much less or no damage while doing so.

Enmity management skills such as Out of Sight and Chameleon do add to the group's performance as managing enmity is a group effort now. Everyone has to make sure they're doing their part to keep their enmity where it should be. People with low enmity can steal some off of people with high enmity with Accomplice, people can lower their enmity bit by bit over time with attacks and abilities.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

It's not just the damage though. The job of a damage dealing class is to do damage yes, Archer is one of them. The reason it has such an advantage is that it can deal comparable or greater damage than other War classes at a range, and thus taking much less or no damage while doing so.

Enmity management skills such as Out of Sight and Chameleon do add to the group's performance as managing enmity is a group effort now. Everyone has to make sure they're doing their part to keep their enmity where it should be. People with low enmity can steal some off of people with high enmity with Accomplice, people can lower their enmity bit by bit over time with attacks and abilities.

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You are right but I'm just surprised to see so many blame Archer's damage output as the reason others don't get invites. The reason is, as you and I said in a post earlier, being able to attack out of AoE range. Nerfing ARCs damage will do nothing to change that. People who want easy mode will still invite Archer over the others.

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Originally Posted by Kensei

You are right but I'm just surprised to see so many blame Archer's damage output as the reason others don't get invites. The reason is, as you and I said in a post earlier, being able to attack out of AoE range. Nerfing ARCs damage will do nothing to change that. People who want easy mode will still invite Archer over the others.

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Well no nerfing the damage of Archers/increasing the damage of other War damage classes will help. There has to be incentive to invite other War damage classes, damage would be a great incentive. Either you can bring other War classes and have higher DPS and thus clear some things faster or you can bring some Archers which increases survivability at the cost of some of that DPS.

It's not just damage or just range, it's the fact that they have the best of both worlds. You certainly can't decrease their range in comparison to other classes but damage is an acceptable balance.

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Nerfing ARCs damage will do nothing to change that. People who want easy mode will still invite Archer over the others.

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Hmm. Not necessarily - if, for example, 5 archers take forever to bring down a boss because it dynamically adapts to piercing damage, Archers would drop out of favor pretty fast...

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Originally Posted by Rinsui

Hmm. Not necessarily - if, for example, 5 archers take forever to bring down a boss because it dynamically adapts to piercing damage, Archers would drop out of favor pretty fast...

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The only way archers would take forever to take something down in comparison to other classes would be if their damage is 75% of that of the other classes. If that happens SE might as well remove them from the game. They would be pure damage dealers that don't deal damage. They would have to pay for ammo, can't effectively wear heavy armor, have lower HP than the other classes, have no abilities that benefit the group, and lowest damage in the game. Who the hell would play them? It would be absurd.