Why can't we have jobs with this level of depth and customization in FFXIV?

If they add PUP, it will be a very generic version.

The design of this game is simplistic. It is done that way to tightly control player experience. Tightly controlled experience allows easy balancing/tuning of fights and faster production of content. (Even if recycled.. meh)

This game isn't about creativity or problem solving through diversity of abilities - it's about following the dance they set for you - either grinding something - or following a script and not messing up. Team jump rope.

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

This is X not Y is a terrible reason for not adding in interesting mechanics/depth to the game.
Seriously people who reply like this are stupid.

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Amen brother!!

Again, please remember:

This thread is not here to request puppetmaster be added to the game.

^^ My comment was about the design more than the job. We can't have things like that, because it doesn't follow the game design.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

I feel like the conversation has gone a bit off the rails here. Please remember:

This thread is not a request to bring in puppetmaster.
This thread is not a request to copy FFXI mechanics or endgame, etc.


What is it? A request for more complex, thought out, deep jobs. Comparable to some jobs/classes seen in other MMOs. I used a specific example of a job from XI I came across while surfing, but it's not the only example out there.

I'm not saying the more straightforward jobs should go away. I would just like to see some options at the other end of the spectrum.

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I agree, I will list two things I think would improve the game.

I think we should have things like skill chains.

I would love to see a forth role consisting of pure buff/debuff/support, it would allow for fights to be tuned with bosses that hit harder, have higher dps checks, or are very healing intensive. Imagine needing a rdm or brd to debuff a boss enough so we could defeat it. I think with enough support jobs for the sake of variety, the aforementioned concept would be interesting.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

I'd just be happy if they opened up the support skills a bit more. There are literally DOZENS of skills which would benefit other jobs which can't be used by that class. Why? Goodness only knows. Presumably because of some bizarre notion of balance, and yet these skills are undoubtedly useable by the class the job is built from.

So, just because I go from Gladiator to Paladin, I can't regen TP with Invigorate? Does equipping the stone make Paladins stupid? They even removed Thunder from Summoner's cast list for reasons unknown.

I guess that's my biggest gripe when it comes to 'customization'. There is literally none when it comes to skills. You have a handful of ones you can actually equip, and usually less than 5 of them are actually beneficial for your job. Much less than 5 if you're a Black Mage or Summoner.

Either they could give us some new equippable skills, where we're restricted to 1 new skill out of the selection. Or they could open up the cross-class skills to make them actually cross classes. Right now it feels more like an afterthought than any real attempt at character customization.

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I agree with this sentiment 100%

Cross class skills should be interesting and more than "I'll take what ever to fill up the 4th and 5th spots on my cross class skill slots." There should be hard choices to be made, such as choosing between a reraise or a dps cd. I think there is a lot of potential in the cross class skill system and yet some jobs hardly benefit from it as stated in the post above. BLM is a great example of who gets the short end of the cross class skill stick.

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

Changing the entire game of baseball vs implementing a job/design choice which would add minor complexity to a small portion of the game.
Terrible analogy.

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In case you missed it I was being a little bit satirical. I'm not against adding in a bit more depth and stabilizability to the jobs, In fact Yoshi-P has mentioned he might overhaul the armory system for 3.0 because of issues in trying to create more jobs and the uselessness of classes once you get the job.

My post was more poking fun at your comment. There are better ways of getting your point across then using ALL CAPS OR SAYING SOMEONE IS STUPID IF THEY DONT AGREE. ;) Take care!

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

^^ My comment was about the design more than the job. We can't have things like that, because it doesn't follow the game design.

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Well, damn. Yeah, you make a really good point. I'll just hold out hope though....

I have to wonder though about the level of depth and complexity people are seeking. There is truth in the argument that most of FFXIV's jobs were simple when you remove much of its redundancy. Jobs like Puppetmaster and Blue Mage were somewhat of an exception due to the number of passive traits that could cause these's Job's focuses to shift. However to some degree, this already exists in FFXIV's core Class/Job system, as evidenced by Arcanist, and even disregarding that, within stance like abilities like Warrior's Defiance or Conjurer's Cleric Stance. Even the varying pets of Summoner provide differing depth within its design.

As a personal note, I would not mind them expanding on the established concepts they have to add more depth to the game. We have not even seen the depth of what has been introduced with Ninja. I'm in a 'wait and see' mode. I want to know what they have planned for the Class system as it stands. I can't help but feel that we are left with a half written page and providing feedback on chapters undefined.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

However to some degree, this already exists in FFXIV's core Class/Job system, as evidenced by Arcanist, and even disregarding that, within stance like abilities like Warrior's Defiance or Conjurer's Cleric Stance. Even the varying pets of Summoner provide differing depth within its design.

As a personal note, I would not mind them expanding on the established concepts they have to add more depth to the game. We have not even seen the depth of what has been introduced with Ninja. I'm in a 'wait and see' mode. I want to know what they have planned for the Class system as it stands. I can't help but feel that we are left with a half written page and providing feedback on chapters undefined.

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Sure, I won't argue that; there are some interesting possibilities within the current system. But it's all in execution, not setup. And for arcanist... well, it's most a matter of: Want to SCH? MND. Want to SMN? INT. There's not that much leeway. SMN almost has it, with STR and VIT affecting pets, but since it's more a dot job than a pet job, INT pretty much wins out. If 80% of the damage came from the pet instead of the summoner, maybe we would see things like STR SMN builds? That would be kind of interesting. I doubt you'd really see VIT builds, though, because titan egi is expressly designed for solo play.

Well, I'm hoping 3.0 will make things better too. We'll see.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I have to wonder though about the level of depth and complexity people are seeking.

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From what I understand, people want the ability to choose from a bunch of different "styles". They also want all them to be viable.

I don't think it's a worthy venture because it'll only take a week or two to figure out which is the best style and you're a moron for not using said style. I saw this in another thread, "What if there was a STR specialized DRG and Crit specialized DRG? What happens when the theory-crafters figure out that Crit specialized shits all over STR spec in DPS and you decide you want to be STR spec? Guess what, you're booted for being STR spec. Come back when you're crit spec."

Other than that, I've never seen any of those people suggest a system that could work without basically ruining the balance SE seems to want to maintain. Although, the common retort is, "it's up to the devs to make it happen."

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Originally Posted by cryptic_angel

It's like you made a straw man and now you are fighting with it or something? It's hilarious ;)
I will just reiterate my statement again, I was never talking about ff11 as a whole.

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Of course you weren't. You were just cherry-picking one of the two "complex" jobs of FFXI while calling FFXIV's rotations simplistic. Even though Puppetmaster wasn't really that complex and FFXIV's simple rotations simply blow away in complexity the "rotations" that the majority of FFXI jobs used.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

They even removed Thunder from Summoner's cast list for reasons unknown.

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They actually made a developer post to explain that. They removed Thunder from Summoner's to reign in their DPS.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

This game isn't about creativity or problem solving through diversity of abilities - it's about following the dance they set for you - either grinding something - or following a script and not messing up. Team jump rope.

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I love how you guys keep parroting this catch-phrase, team jump rope. So what exactly was a game where we used creativity or problem solving through diversity of abilities? FFXI? Lol.

Because we have a dungeon finder to get groups faster and SE already knows we have a wide variety of skill levels in random groups. Adding in "specs" that are just useless to the role that they are supposed to fill would just be an annoyance to the community at large.

Essentially because the game is built around set number of 3 specific roles in each group, they need jobs that can specialize in those roles. Hybrids and snowflakes are always useless in groups in the formula they are following for this game.

Even in FFXI there was customization but realistically if you wanted a good group you had only a set amount of choices per job.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

From what I understand, people want the ability to choose from a bunch of different "styles". They also want all them to be viable.

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Ehm... that's a holy grail there. I know if they add something with deep customization, a lot of configurations won't be viable in high end group play. I'd be happy with best effort and just having that ability, though.

The problem with your example is you're mixing main stats with off stats/secondary stats. You can have crit without sacrificing STR, if only the pieces you need have that as an off stat. Rather than STR vs Crit, you should be fielding DET vs Crit. There's some interesting discussion to be had there but I feel that's better left to the horizontal progression threads.

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Originally Posted by Alavastre

I really want a Support slot, that deals with buffs/defbuffs, damage mitigation and heals. Stuff like that

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There is already a job like this, it's called Scholar.

Contrary to popular belief, dedicated "support" classes (as in, a class that does nothing other than buff/debuff) are not only the biggest pain in the ass to balance in any game environment, but they require an existing system to undergo thousands of dollars in alterations to accommodate said change.

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Originally Posted by Clicked

-snip- there was customization but realistically if you wanted a good group you had only a set amount of choices per job.

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Some choices are better than none, IMO.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

Of course you weren't. You were just cherry-picking one of the two "complex" jobs of FFXI while calling FFXIV's rotations simplistic. Even though Puppetmaster wasn't really that complex and FFXIV's simple rotations simply blow away in complexity the "rotations" that the majority of FFXI jobs used.



They actually made a developer post to explain that. They removed Thunder from Summoner's to reign in their DPS.

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I did not pick Pup, the thread did. Again, you are arguing with a point that I never made.

Quite frankly, the only time I've seen lots of variety in play was in EQ... and that was done by a team that unabashedly told players they were using the "Vision" tm.

In other words, they said, "Yes there are lots of different playstyles and classes... but this is the holy trinity - tank,cc,cleric - DEAL WITH IT".

Players complained, but eventually just accepted it... there were still plenty of hybrid class players. You just knew if you played one of those "special" classes you would get a group.

Players nowadays don't seem to be as accepting of that idea... probably because gaming has moved so far away from the D&D rule set.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

I love how you guys keep parroting this catch-phrase, team jump rope. So what exactly was a game where we used creativity or problem solving through diversity of abilities? FFXI? Lol.

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Everquest - Devs would even watch to see how guilds would defeat encounters, since there were so many different ways they could be done. Many times things were defeated using strategies devs didn't even consider. I dunno how many times our high end guild defeated something only to have an invis dev pop up and congratulate us... we always knew they were there.... lurking... watching.... making sure there were no exploits going on.... sneeky hobbitzes!!

I've never seen so much excuse making in my life. Some of you act like SE doesnt have nearing 40 years of experience in RPG's and almost 15 in MMO's. You act like its some fledgling company making their first ever game.

I'm not even going to bother pulling out quotes from all the hypocrites who insinuate that people who's opinions differ are not the "target audience". Such arrogance. Just because you blindly love everything this game produces doesn't mean you are the sole target audience. If games cater to one side of the coin they will die and die quickly as it dissolves into a small band of die hards which seems to be already happening.

The dev team has time and again said XIV's impossible to achieve goal is to please everyone. Anybody who has half a brain knows that that is impossible. It is just an excuse to be gutless with their choices. An excuse to play everything safe and let other game companies take the design risks so they can just copy them later.

As for the people who say it took XI years to get End Game content, it also took that long to get to the point where you were ready for End Game. The world was rich with content leading to that point. It was a journey. It wasnt...ok i'm going to put my pants on and run a handful of chores and wham bam thank you ma'am lets do this End Game stuff!!!!

Also the elitist demands of wearing certain gear, or playing certain subs, and all of those other things did not run rampant in XI till well after ToAU. I would also like to break the news to you that those players that made and enforced those rules by shunning people are the very people that defend XIV the way it is now. Look in the mirrors kiddies, because you are the ones that started this. That's why video games have to be so simple now. So if you think you are the majority and the "target audience", you are the elitists who cried and whined until everything had to be your way.

Just thought I'd throw in a dose of reality.

In FFXIV there is a class/job system in place where every class and job gets an skill at set levels. Everyone has the same amount of abilities. This is not the case in FFXI, they didn't have this rule so you got jobs with lots of abilities and spells and jobs with much fewer.

Each job in FFXIV has a set role this isn't the same in FFXI, certain jobs like blu, and pup could be tailored to do different things.

This is a different game with different game systems what worked in FFXI won't necessarily work in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

Of course you weren't. You were just cherry-picking one of the two "complex" jobs of FFXI while calling FFXIV's rotations simplistic.

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For that particular example, it's not the rotation, it's the setup and configuration possibilities.

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Originally Posted by Velox

There is already a job like this, it's called Scholar.

Contrary to popular belief, dedicated "support" classes (as in, a class that does nothing other than buff/debuff) are not only the biggest pain in the ass to balance in any game environment, but they require an existing system to undergo thousands of dollars in alterations to accommodate said change.

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SCH is one of the most fascinating jobs in the game, IMO. I actually think SE did pretty well here. I've seen shielding/mitigating healers before, but not pet based healers.

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Originally Posted by cryptic_angel

I agree, I think we should have things like skill chains.

I would love to see a forth role consisting of pure buff/debuff/support, it would allow for fights to be tuned with bosses that hit harder, have higher dps checks, or are very healing intensive. Imagine needing a rdm or brd to debuff a boss enough so we could defeat it. I think with enough support jobs for the sake of variety, the aforementioned concept would be interesting.

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I don't seen this happening - the support role.


Reason being is population balancing.

We're already leaning heavily on the side of DPS, so much that it's a 2:1 ratio in favor of DPS due to the role's popularity (or a 5/3 ratio in ST). Without expanding the base light party to 5, I don't see a way they could impliment it into duty finder or fights in general without worsening the bottle-neck issue with DPS we currently have.

I would like to see more support functions for classes, however. A straight support class? Not so much.

I'd like to see something along the lines of skill chains, however. If it can be balanced. One of the problems with FFXI's skillchain system is that it did narrow the viable field of classes initially due to players simply exploiting the most efficient group to skillchain with, and this problem repeatedly came up.

There would also be the concern on how it would work in this game. Fights are faster paced, combat isn't the same as it was in FFXI by a Wide Margin. Combat was a slow build and skillchains were to make use of these separate slow builds in a form of teamwork. The entire concept would likely not be recognizable from how we would remember it. Not to mention the difficulty coordinating such. Perhaps specific off-gdc skills could be used in tandem to make specific effects? There is a lot to think on as far as that subject goes.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

From what I understand, people want the ability to choose from a bunch of different "styles". They also want all them to be viable.

I don't think it's a worthy venture because it'll only take a week or two to figure out which is the best style and you're a moron for not using said style. I saw this in another thread, "What if there was a STR specialized DRG and Crit specialized DRG? What happens when the theory-crafters figure out that Crit specialized shits all over STR spec in DPS and you decide you want to be STR spec? Guess what, you're booted for being STR spec. Come back when you're crit spec."

Other than that, I've never seen any of those people suggest a system that couldwork without basically ruining the balance SE seems to want to maintain. Although, the common retort is, "it's up to the devs to make it happen."

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If I had to pick between a buffet where only a handful of food was good or vanilla paste cafe, I would take the buffet. I get your point and I agree with the notion that most raiders and min/max-ers would play the optimal setup; but, in a game where we can switch classes on a whim, I would enjoy playing "neat" classes, that might unperformed by 8-10%, in the myriad of other content outside of raiding.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I don't seen this happening - the support role.


Reason being is population balancing.

We're already leaning heavily on the side of DPS, so much that it's a 2:1 ratio in favor of DPS due to the role's popularity (or a 5/3 ratio in ST). Without expanding the base light party to 5, I don't see a way they could impliment it into duty finder or fights in general without worsening the bottle-neck issue with DPS we currently have.

I would like to see more support functions for classes, however. A straight support class? Not so much.

I'd like to see something along the lines of skill chains, however. If it can be balanced. One of the problems with FFXI's skillchain system is that it did narrow the viable field of classes initially due to players simply exploiting the most efficient group to skillchain with, and this problem repeatedly came up.

There would also be the concern on how it would work in this game. Fights are faster paced, combat isn't the same as it was in FFXI by a Wide Margin. Combat was a slow build and skillchains were to make use of these separate slow builds in a form of teamwork. The entire concept would likely not be recognizable from how we would remember it. Not to mention the difficulty coordinating such. Perhaps specific off-gdc skills could be used in tandem to make specific effects? There is a lot to think on as far as that subject goes.

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I think a debuff class would have to come in the form how brd works in this game. Utilizing stances, modes, or dps/hps/tps losses to debuff/buff could allow for hybridization and we could see a class the mechanically would work different in a static raid group than how it works in DF or CT/ST.

I agree, any iterations of skill chains and debuff classes are most likely not going to be reconizable by ff11 players.

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Originally Posted by Clicked

Even in FFXI there was customization but realistically if you wanted a good group you had only a set amount of choices per job.

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Sure, but people see that mages had a huge spell list and that melees could equip a variety of weapon types and go "FFXI had so much more depth!".

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

For that particular example, it's not the rotation, it's the setup and configuration possibilities.

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Like I already mentioned: Puppetmaster (or any job really) having a lot of setup and configuration possibilities is completely meaningless when only a very select few were viable. Puppetmaster didn't even have a viable endgame build. It was just a novelty job that was never taken seriously.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Again, please remember:

This thread is not here to request puppetmaster be added to the game.

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But what DO you want then? Your example is flawed; PUP's complexity is an illusion that only serves as a gil-enforced barrier to entry. Actual PUP gameplay is extremely shallow, (hit a maneuver every like 20-30 seconds, weaponskill with TP) actual FFXIV gameplay is extremely deep. The simplest BLM rotation is "Fire until no mana, then Blizzard," but in order to attain competitive DPS there are a LOT more factors, spells, and decisions being made every moment. The same goes for every other job in XIV; they are all simple to PICK UP, yes, in order to cater to new players, but by design they are all much more difficult to master than the ones in FFXI were.

FFXI combat is shallow; all the decisions are made BEFORE a fight via what gear you have access to and what macros you've made for them. In all honesty DNC probably had potential to be the most complex job from FFXI, but even that was ruined when it was eventually turned from dps/healer/support to pure DD; DNC rotations now are fairly simple like the other DD jobs.

As an FFXI BRD main, literally the only choice made available to me was where to stand, and if I wanted to bother using Pianissimo. I sing the same songs for the same groups over and over for the duration of a fight: March/Madrigal for melee, double Ballad for casters, and if I was feeling frisky, Pianissimo Minne for the PLD. That's it.
BRD of course is the example of the worst of the worst, but people need to stop pretending that FFXI had 'depth.'



I will agree that customization would be cool; it would be nice to have something akin to talent trees in order to slightly "color" the way you play your job, e.g. one Bard with a passive chosen to remove the DPS loss while singing, another Bard that instead keeps the penalty but has a passive buff that increases damage dealt while singing, stacking for each consecutive second spent singing. The first can sing whenever he feels the support is wanted, the latter would be encouraged to wait for when a single song would be effective for the entire duration.

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Originally Posted by Sonofbaldo

Just thought I'd throw in a dose of reality.

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So... when are you going to throw it in?

All I saw was accusations and bitter grapes about a design team who took a philosophy you disagreed with. FFXI was appealing.... to about 500k, less than a quarter of our subscriber base, not even including China. And 100k MORE than Yoshida was expecting to get at launch.

So, gripe all you like. The dose of reality here is, the current approach is working. Can't wait to see the Census data.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

Like I already mentioned: Puppetmaster (or any job really) having a lot of setup and configuration possibilities is completely meaningless when only a very select few were viable. Puppetmaster didn't even have a viable endgame build. It was just a novelty job that was never taken seriously.

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But there's no reason to say any such jobs will necessarily repeat that in XIV. And cryptic angle said it better than I can:

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Originally Posted by cryptic_angel

If I had to pick between a buffet where only a handful of food was good or vanilla paste cafe, I would take the buffet. I get your point and I agree with the notion that most raiders and min/max-ers would play the optimal setup; but, in a game where we can switch classes on a whim, I would enjoy playing "neat" classes, that might unperformed by 8-10%, in the myriad of other content outside of raiding.

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And I'm expecting there to be more and more content outside of raiding as the game ages.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

So, gripe all you like. The dose of reality here is, the current approach is working. Can't wait to see the Census data.

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Doesn't mean things can't be even better than now.

I don't like vertical progression so much, but I can't argue that, as you point out, it works. In the case of jobs, however, adding what we're seeking here doesn't require changes to the existing ones, or in any way subtract from the current systems. There is only the potential to add more to the game.

Devs already said if they have a job that focuses more on the pets in fights, it is a unfair disadvantage compared to others. In this game at least. FFXI goes at a pace where you can afford to mess with things like managing your puppet/summon.

Lets like at the high end game event in current FFXI delve. The following jobs people take in this 18 man event.

Job - Role
MNK - DPS/Tank
DRK - DPS
DRG - Argon (-25% defense) / dps (low dps but hey they mainly for argon)
WHM - Healer
SCH - Healer/buffer
BRD - buffer
COR - buffer
GEO - buffer/debuffer

For a game that has 22 jobs basically people only take these few around to endgame. If you have a non standard group of friends sure you can take non optimal jobs but any pug they will only want these certain jobs.

You see jobs that you could customize to do a role like pup where never taken or used in endgame because there were specialized jobs that did their role better.

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Originally Posted by cryptic_angel

I think a debuff class would have to come in the form how brd works in this game. Utilizing stances, modes, or dps/hps/tps losses to debuff/buff could allow for hybridization and we could see a class the mechanically would work different in a static raid group than how it works in DF or CT/ST.

I agree, any iterations of skill chains and debuff classes are most likely not going to be reconizable by ff11 players.

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I could see that be utalized in the same box slot we would have in a DPS. Heck, I might like to see Red Mage applied with those concepts, something fluid that could shift to meet the needs of the party/raid/group they're in.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Doesn't mean things can't be even better than now.

I don't like vertical progression so much, but I can't argue that, as you point out, it works. In the case of jobs, however, adding what we're seeking here doesn't require changes to the existing ones, or in any way subtract from the current systems. There is only the potential to add more to the game.

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No, that's fine. I agree. I do feel, however, that such changes should be done with all due caution, and to balance that from the onset takes time.

This philosophy is part of the reason why I am in support of a Public Test Server as well, so we don't run into issues like we did with Hunts.

I just don't tolerate people interjecting into a conversation with the tone that they are better than those who've taken the time to disseminate issues. Again, it's bitter individuals who feel that no leeway should be given at all and negativity is both warranted and necessary. That top-down mentality, in my view, should be ostracized and unwelcome on all subjects and approaches.

I'll make a safe assumption in stating we're not here to ruin everyone else's time.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Devs already said if they have a job that focuses more on the pets in fights, it is a unfair disadvantage compared to others. In this game at least. FFXI goes at a pace where you can afford to mess with things like managing your puppet/summon.

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How about a similar level of customization on the player, then?

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Lets like at the high end game event in current FFXI delve. The following jobs people take in this 18 man event.

Job - Role
MNK - DPS/Tank
DRK - DPS
DRG - Argon (-25% defense) / dps (low dps but hey they mainly for argon)
WHM - Healer
SCH - Healer/buffer
BRD - buffer
COR - buffer
GEO - buffer/debuffer

For a game that has 22 jobs basically people only take these few around to endgame. If you have a non standard group of friends sure you can take non optimal jobs but any pug they will only want these certain jobs.

You see jobs that you could customize to do a role like pup where never taken or used in endgame because there were specialized jobs that did their role better.

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Sure, but I'm not advocating we copy FFXI endgame, mechanics, or puppetmaster.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

You're basically asking for what an earlier poster pointed out: you want multiple builds and for them all to be viable. Which yeah, would be awesome, but how often do you see that? Yeah..

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If you look at my previous posts, you'll see I'm not asking for that. I'm OK with a lot of nonviable builds as long as 1. a few of them are viable. Even 2 or 3 would be better than what we have now and 2. gives us something to tinker with when not in high end raid content and maybe losing that 10% efficiency doesn't actually matter that much.

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Originally Posted by Celes_Chere

ffxi is for ocd neurotic players.
ffxiv is for the everyday gamer.

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This is pretty much it in a nutshell. FXIV caters to console players and your everyday gamer whos just lookin' for some good ol' fasion fun without the painstaking hours of trying different builds/gears to figure out which ones the most optimal. I can already see it now if they added this into this game, "Looking for DPS for T6 but you must be X gear, with Y build, no a/b/c/d build allowed" - well gee that sucks, because what if that person dumped all there gil and time playing a certain build but is now deemed "inefficient" ? That's what FXIV was trying to avoid, hence the very pigeonholed classes with very little wiggle room.

While in theory its fun to have variety, inevitably what happens is there ends up being one kick-ass build while the other 99 go to waste or are just there for iconic/amusement reasons. I want the devs to really take there time and really think about how to go about adding variety within each class/job without making something completely useless. It's a tall order but I think it can be done if given time.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Sure, but I'm not advocating we copy FFXI endgame, mechanics, or puppetmaster.

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Yes, but the point still is: jobs having multiple build options is meaningless when only a few of these are viable. More so when they end up with no "great builds" and get outclassed by the "specialist" jobs. Jack-of-all-trades jobs have always had this problem.

You're basically asking for what an earlier poster pointed out: you want multiple builds and for them all to be viable. Which yeah, would be awesome, but how often do you see that? Yeah...

They can have all my money for Pup. Adored it in XI.

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

This is X not Y is a terrible reason for not adding in interesting mechanics/depth to the game.
Seriously people who reply like this are stupid.

There is a huge outcry by lots of people for more depth in all areas of the game, from gear, to jobs, to the open world, to monster AI. BUT NOPE THIS IS XIV SO WE CAN'T HAVE THAT NOT AT ALL XIV DOESN'T ACCOMMODATE TO CHANGE OR CHOICES FOR THE PLAYER.

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Interesting mechanics?

They were in FFXI it's nothing new and SE wants to do something new not put stuff from a game that already exists.

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Originally Posted by HeroSamson

Interesting mechanics?

They were in FFXI it's nothing new and SE wants to do something new not put stuff from a game that already exists.

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This is where someone comes in and calls FFXIV a WoW clone.

Personally, the most important thing in a game for me is how fun it is to play. It being original or not has little importance to me.

I haven't followed the Ninja job information, but:

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Additionally, the pacing of the game was much, much slower, allowing more methodical methods to be used, and fit with the theme of the game. In similar respects, look at how the concept of Ninja was created. 3 Runes, that in various combination, creates different attacks - rather than a large spell list. Complexity through simplicity.

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Did they just add LOTR Warden to the game?

Back to topic sort of;

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You're basically asking for what an earlier poster pointed out: you want multiple builds and for them all to be viable. Which yeah, would be awesome, but how often do you see that? Yeah...

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Well, the Sky shells I was in never discriminated on jobs. As long as we had 1 or 2 tanks in the alliance, then we rotated everyone besides the BRD.. and me as RNG in the beginning for winds, since we where not as geared at that time.

This is from CoP era, but a few jobs did have several options that where viable or situational. Like: SAM/(WAR/THF/RNG), NIN/(WAR/DRK/BLM) and then Ranger that only had 2 subjob options, but had 3 different weapon builds, well 4 with culverine.

So while not all combination where viable, there where options, and not just illusions of options as some say.

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FXIV caters to console players and your everyday gamer whos just lookin'

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Just thought I should point out that FFXI where much more a console type game then FFXIV. Heck, it was even created for the PS2 before they ported it to PC.

Anyway, I'm all for complexity. It's things like that that brings a game to life.

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Personally, the most important thing in a game for me is how fun it is to play. It being original or not has little importance to me.

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True, but when it comes to an RPG, I want to have the feeling that the game world is alive. Like my character lives there. Things like time, weather and other things actually matter somehow.

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Originally Posted by HeroSamson

Interesting mechanics?

They were in FFXI it's nothing new and SE wants to do something new not put stuff from a game that already exists.

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"Interesting mechanics already exist."
"XIV is not going to do something that already exists"
"Therefore XIV will not have interesting mechanics."
Fun game.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

This is where someone comes in and calls FFXIV a WoW clone.

Personally, the most important thing in a game for me is how fun it is to play. It being original or not has little importance to me.

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Yeah I know they will say then why make FFXIV like WoW.

Also if they did make puppet, the puppet will be weak as all hell, its not gonna be as strong as ffxi's puppet, just like yoshi said before if they was to give wyvern back to dragoon it would be weak.

So would the puppet and the puppet wouldn't be the same as XI's either it would be totally different and after finding out they wouldn't play the job making it a waste of a slot for a better class.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

If you look at my previous posts, you'll see I'm not asking for that. I'm OK with a lot of nonviable builds as long as 1. a few of them are viable. Even 2 or 3 would be better than what we have now and 2. gives us something to tinker with when not in high end raid content and maybe losing that 10% efficiency doesn't actually matter that much.

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But you do. You have the Class system. The Class system is about variability, the Job system is about Refinement, honing your stats and execution to that point needed for those difficult raids.

But you are going to be asked, pretty much at all times with a party, to be efficient. Having SE institute a variety that won't be efficient really does sort of fall off as far as worthwhile pursuits.

Moreso, creating multiple paths to reach the same goals can just as easily be achieved on the player side by expanding their field of play. You yourself only have 2 classes to 50, and they both share role - healer. You easily know how those classes can vary in their method of healing. Stacking MND for both is a must, sure, but one values crit more. Both Jobs are an option to you, and you get your depth and variety in having that accessible to you.

If I wanted to go more crit based as a Damage Dealer, I could go Monk. That's the great thing - we're not limited to one job or Class here, as we are in many MMOs. So the method of choices change.