[dev1032] PUG skills singled out.

Melee DDs have MP for a reason. Trifuricate ARC skill uses MP and I've never complained.

Trifurcate, a skill that you don't actually have to use often as you can achieve the same effect with Multishot. I never complained about Seismic Shock before either. These are our BASIC ATTACKS though. As in, if I don't have MP I can't participate in basic battle regimens basic attacks. Oh or heighten my evade chances further, you know the only thing Pugilists have going for them survival wise.

What? I use Trifurcate every time it is up and it sucks when I'm out of MP and can't use it due to curing myself on Batraal or whatever.

Are you saying the PGL equivalent of Light Shot uses MP and a PGL can't attack at all if they don't have MP? That sounds weird if true.

Pugilist auto-attack is free. Flurry is free but on a 60 second recast and can't be used in battle regimens. Pummel requires MP and is on a 30 second recast. Light Strike requires MP and is on a 30 second recast. For an Archer it would be like if Heavy Shot had an MP cost.

I don't even have Heavy Shot on my bar to be honest. Maybe it's worth using since 1.18 I don't know. But I see your point. PGL is already kinda weak, they don't need to make life worse for them.

Yeah, its really hard to compare ARC and PGL due to the autoattack discrepancies.

Probably due to its 10 second buff. ): Still though! It is kind of weird. But with haste/haste gear I hope for it to not count as much.

You can't really argue the buff standpoint though as Featherfoot gives the same (and stronger version) effect as Light Strike but requires no MP.

And even if you did accept the 10 second buff is worth 10 MP for Light Strike, that just makes the Pummel MP requirement of 20 even stranger.

light strike 10 mp > eva boost for 10 seconds, ok- pummel 20 mp 30 seconds recast and tp bonus, comparing it to lnc's full thrust which gives tp bonus with a recast of 60 seconds. pug has a pretty good AA rate and the only class with a recast of 30s 30s and 60s for the 3 attacks (not counting archer as it's just...archer >.>).. i guess that SE had to push pgls down on something and they chose mp instead of gimping your pummel to 60 seconds recast.. not saying that it's a good or bad choice, i'd prefer a longer recast and use mp for..well, heals <.<

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Originally Posted by Murugan

A half second bind is balanced with light strike? I didn't realize that light strike was completely useless.

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Lancers pierce things, hit multiple targets, and work as a crowd/mob control while being able to stay more distant than other melee range DoW. Pugilists get up close and personal and are best used as a class that can evasion tank and deal dps simultaneously. There should be a difference. Both are class specific skills, with class specific buffs/effects.

However, Light Strike isn't even the issue. Although it still isn't justified in my opinion, 10 MP on Light Strike isn't a big deal in most scenarios. It's Pummel. Pummel's damage is basic, if not less than basic and it simply generates more TP than a basic attack. It is PGL's equivalent of Full Thrust, which has no MP Cost.

I can accept Light Strike maybe, but they seriously need to offer an explanation for Pummel, which costs even more MP than Light Strike.

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And pierce does damage to an enemy in between you and your target, flurry gives an extra attack. I'd take flurry in 99% of all situations.

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Again, what you're basically saying is "I'd rather play as a pugilist in 99% of all situations." Then of course by all means do so. This doesn't justify an MP Cost. Hell Flurry doesn't even have an MP Cost. Only problem with Flurry is still not being able to include in BRs.

Also, Flurry is 3 hits vs the regular 2 hits from a PGL attack - however each hit in Flurry does a bit less damage than usual, so Flurry ends up being just a tad stronger than a basic PGL attack, but not 1.5x stronger as 3 hits vs 2 hits would suggest.

Pierce hits for the same damage as a basic attack, but if you play like a lancer should play and position yourself to hit multiple mobs you're dealing more damage than a PGL ever would with basic attacks. LNC is a better DD than PGL. This is known. Who knows how much 1.18a will change that, but as it stands that is the case. PGL balances having less DPS with having more survival, thus being a viable tank.

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Honestly, I normally wouldn't have a problem with people trying to get a boost for the class I play. But I'm worried you are laying it on a little thick with the "woe is me", what I don't want is a restructure of these abilities that leaves us actually handicapped or "red headed stepchildren" (drama!) rather than something as trivial as a little MP.

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No one is laying it thick. I'm not creating drama. I'm asking for an explanation to this nerf. It is a nerf. The skills were balanced before. They don't need to change it into something different and risk making it worse, which seems to be what you're worried about... fear change? They simply need to make it what it USED to be - without MP costs. Asking to change it back is not asking for a restructure.

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I'm not a random person, I'm a pugilist main and have been since Sept 22, 2010. I've been 50 since January, are you 50 pugilist yet on another character? Cause it looks to me like you are an archer who got pummel two weeks ago, has never played pugilist in darkhold or any difficult encounter where this stuff is actually an issue worth complaining about. Maybe you should stop talking for "us", because I for one don't agree with your level of panic over this, or your proposed solutions.

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Looking up a player's class ranks makes for a weak, desperate argument. Pugilist is my main, was my main, was my first rank 50 and I still mainly play Pugilist. Here I am arguing against you. Don't lower the debate's standard by pointing out people's class ranks, especially when clearly there are r50 PGL mains who do not agree with you.

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Add a very small amount of MP to second wind, problem solved. Best solution in the thread. Also rename it Chakra. With such a short recast Second Wind doesn't really fit anymore anyways. Oh and fix flurry in Battle Regimen please you forgot to turn off a switch somewhere when you changed it in 1.18.

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If they did that, sure I wouldn't mind. It is an effective solution. Although at this point it seems more like a patch-up to fix something that shouldn't be there, it may just be something PGL needs for being unique. If so it would suggest that PGL uses MP as "chakra" to increase the effectiveness of it's strikes.

If they increase the duration of the Light Strike buff, and make Pummel hit much harder and/or generate more TP than it does now then yes I would be fine with it. The MP cost has to make sense. We have to see that using MP makes the skill better than it was before when it used noting.

Yes, please. Fix Flurry.

P.S. I still think they should bring back stances for PGL.

Flurry has been fixed, used it a few times in BR today. This is slightly better, still please remove or give us a reason for the MP costs.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

You can't really argue the buff standpoint though as Featherfoot gives the same (and stronger version) effect as Light Strike but requires no MP.

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shhhhh, I don't want SE to see and start charging us MP for featherfoot!

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Originally Posted by MattyWS

After the removal of Physical level everyone is going to be so weak on their main class xD

Thing is I use these abilities all the time for fast tp, meaning I run out fast and can't cure.. and if the mob I fight is still half health I cannot kill it fast, because I can't get fast tp, and I cannot hold off because I cannot cure. Only really happened a few time in long fights but still!

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If it's your main, why isn't it 50 already?
I swear, I see way too many people spending way to much time bitching, and not enough time playing or keeping up with the dev info.

First, stats are being reworked so that they won't be some high number like 174 to cap, and gear will actually play a part.
So as for your uninformed concern, you'll likely be even more powerful after 1.19 than you are now.

Now everyone go play the game and stop crying over some minor mp cost. You might even dare I say it, learn to play your class.

Some of us aren't exactly crying over it, we're wondering why an MP cost was put on Pugilists attacks and not the attacks of any other classes. I think it's a pretty fair concern to wonder why Pugilist has additional requirements other classes do not, especially when it seems rather unwarranted.

I still play and make due every day but it becomes inconvenient when I cannot perform two of my basic attacks because I'm out of MP.

A couple of good solutions would be:

A) Take out the MP costs.

B) Add MP regen to Second Wind.

C) Give us more MP per Mind stat.

D) Add an MP version of Bloodbath.

I mean I'll play either way, just trying to be a little constructive in light of all this. Thankfully they have fixed Flurry so it can be added into battle regimens.

The class hasn't lost functionality really, it's just quite inconvenient. I managed to tank Great Buffalo yesterday with little trouble but the MP costs still bug me. I can still do great (now even better) damage in groups but I still feel the MP costs are unnecessary. It just makes little sense as to why they're there.

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Originally Posted by Akuun

If it's your main, why isn't it 50 already?
I swear, I see way too many people spending way to much time bitching, and not enough time playing or keeping up with the dev info.

First, stats are being reworked so that they won't be some high number like 174 to cap, and gear will actually play a part.
So as for your uninformed concern, you'll likely be even more powerful after 1.19 than you are now.

Now everyone go play the game and stop crying over some minor mp cost. You might even dare I say it, learn to play your class.

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Because I don't play religiously. What does it matter if I'm not rank 50, it's still my main class and I use these abilities. Sorry I had no idea these forums were made for rank 50 only.

And I'm not crying about it, I'm agreeing that it's silly to cost MP and it affects the job quite a bit, as I stopped using anything other than Second Wind to heal myself, seems to fix the issue but solo, it's still a problem. Not a big problem mind you, but it's something that doesn't need to be.

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Originally Posted by Akuun

I swear, I see way too many people spending way to much time bitching, and not enough time playing or keeping up with the dev info.

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Did they give us new info about this? I haven't seen any. I've been looking for it. I also play my PGL regularly, and I rarely have any downtime, unless the mobs I am grinding on are all dead.

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Originally Posted by Akuun

Now everyone go play the game and stop crying over some minor mp cost. You might even dare I say it, learn to play your class.

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Glad you found a way to make yourself feel like a better player. I'm not overly concerned about it, though it would be nice to hear an official reason for this.

With a 30 and 60 second cool down, you shouldn't even be worried about these abilities using up all your mp, even on a boss fight, and if you're tanking, the only healing abilities you should even need to use is second wind.
If your mages can't keep you healed or keep running out of mp, then they are either bad at their class and not managing mp, or you are taking to much damage and need to make adjustments.
My pug requires less cures from mages than my gla counterparts, and I'm not having to use spells to keep from dying.
Also if you're using sac or cure 3 you're just wasting mp, stick with sac and sac 2 if you have to use spells. (the regen outweighs the actual heal)
And the proper buffs for a fight are stone skin and shock spikes, not more cures and styg spikes.
Finally, put up your weapons after each encounter, fleet of foot is nice for farming, worthless in parties.

Looking at your spec I would say you have too much mnd, and could use more dex and str.
Keep in mind that str directly effects damage reduction on blocks, this includes partial parries.
Lodestone doesn't show gear, so i can't suggest any changes there.

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Originally Posted by Akuun

Looking at your spec I would say you have too much mnd, and could use more dex and str.
Keep in mind that str directly effects damage reduction on blocks, this includes partial parries.
Lodestone doesn't show gear, so i can't suggest any changes there.

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I think it's supposed to work that way but I don't believe it does. Also isn't Parry DEX based? Until the stats work and we have per-class point allotment there's not a lot fixing this. If you're talking to me my Mind is so high because I do occasionally play mage classes and at least like to have a decent MP pool.

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Originally Posted by hotah

Did they give us new info about this? I haven't seen any. I've been looking for it. I also play my PGL regularly, and I rarely have any downtime, unless the mobs I am grinding on are all dead.

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More of a general thing about posts on these forums, but still this is a gripe about something being "unfair".
I have yet to see any real disadvantage vs other close range attackers.

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Originally Posted by hotah

Glad you found a way to make yourself feel like a better player. I'm not overly concerned about it, though it would be nice to hear an official reason for this.

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Ha ha, I wouldn't care if I was the best or the worst player. I play, and I enjoy playing.
Sure it would be nice, there are a lot of things that Yoshi-P is keeping quiet about for now.
I guess it will just be a surprise. ^_^

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Originally Posted by Akuun

With a 30 and 60 second cool down, you shouldn't even be worried about these abilities using up all your mp, even on a boss fight, and if you're tanking, the only healing abilities you should even need to use is second wind.
If your mages can't keep you healed or keep running out of mp, then they are either bad at their class and not managing mp, or you are taking to much damage and need to make adjustments.
My pug requires less cures from mages than my gla counterparts, and I'm not having to use spells to keep from dying.
Also if you're using sac or cure 3 you're just wasting mp, stick with sac and sac 2 if you have to use spells. (the regen outweighs the actual heal)
And the proper buffs for a fight are stone skin and shock spikes, not more cures and styg spikes.
Finally, put up your weapons after each encounter, fleet of foot is nice for farming, worthless in parties.

Looking at your spec I would say you have too much mnd, and could use more dex and str.
Keep in mind that str directly effects damage reduction on blocks, this includes partial parries.
Lodestone doesn't show gear, so i can't suggest any changes there.

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Again, the issue is not management. The MP costs are manageable. They are not necessary. They were not explained. MP Costs for every skill in this game has an explanation - a sort of reasoning behind it; spells, elemental attacks, etc.

Light Strike and especially Pummel suddenly get MP Costs, with no other change to their functions. I don't want to repeat the Full Thrust comparisons again.

Also STR does nothing for parries. STR affects the amount of damage that gets cut by a block. Parries, even partial ones, are entirely DEX-based.

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Originally Posted by Akuun

With a 30 and 60 second cool down, you shouldn't even be worried about these abilities using up all your mp, even on a boss fight, and if you're tanking, the only healing abilities you should even need to use is second wind.

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If the point of putting MP on these abilities wasn't to make a PGL manage his MP in a responsible way, then what is the point of having it at all? In most fights it won't make a difference overall, you're right. But that raises the question: why is it there?

You're saying this is a way to encourage PGLs to stat correctly? I'm not so sure that's something they'd implement this for.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

I think it's supposed to work that way but I don't believe it does. Also isn't Parry DEX based? Until the stats work and we have per-class point allotment there's not a lot fixing this. If you're talking to me my Mind is so high because I do occasionally play mage classes and at least like to have a decent MP pool.

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Yes, dex effects parry rate, but amount of damaged blocked is str based. (SE only stated with shield, but partial parry also seems to be affected)

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Originally Posted by hotah

But that raises the question: why is it there?

You're saying this is a way to encourage PGLs to stat correctly? I'm not so sure that's something they'd implement this for.

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Try starting a thread that asks that question, instead of joining in on a thread that is complaining about pugilist being singled out.

Stat correctly? Is there a correct build for any class?
I've seen a lot of builds that work, usually the ones that do poorly are the ones that lack focus and spread points too evenly, and usually don't gear to the specs strengths and instead gear to a balance, or focus on the builds weaknesses, which in turn make the build even weaker.

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Originally Posted by Akuun

Yes, dex effects parry rate, but amount of damaged blocked is str based. (SE only stated with shield, but partial parry also seems to be affected)

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Blocks and parries do not work the same way.

A block deducts the amount of damage received by an amount based on your STR. This can be further enhanced by various skills.

A parry, similar to evasion, allows you to take 0 damage. Unlike evading however, one can sometimes partially parry an attack. How much damage you receive then is a constant %, give or take, and not affected by STR.

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Originally Posted by hotah

I was curious as to why Light Strike and Pummel requires 10 and 20 mana respectively, while the other DoW classes have no such resource requirement.

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What justifies it?

edit: archer skills

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This is a quote from my original post. Notice the way I said I was "curious" and I "asked". I wasn't being cynical.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Again, the issue is not management. The MP costs are manageable. They are not necessary. They were not explained. MP Costs for every skill in this game has an explanation - a sort of reasoning behind it; spells, elemental attacks, etc.

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If it's manageable then why are you making it an issue?
There are and have been plenty of costs that make little sense to us, and have yet to be explained.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Also STR does nothing for parries. STR affects the amount of damage that gets cut by a block. Parries, even partial ones, are entirely DEX-based.

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I don't know about it being entirely based on dex, I'm pretty sure that our weapons play some part.
As for dex it's the parry rate, on that I agree.
Dexterity (DEX)
Increases accuracy of physical attacks
Increases chances of evading physical attacks
Increases critical hit rate of physical attacks and resulting damage
Increases parry rate for certain weapons

But from what I and others have seen and tested, str does impact how much damage goes through on a partial parry.
Much the same as it does on shield blocking, since pugilist can't fully parry attacks.
By the way, other classes can fully parry attacks, even archer, but I don't see anyone complaining. ^^

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Originally Posted by hotah

This is a quote from my original post. Notice the way I said I was "curious" and I "asked". I wasn't being cynical.

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Sorry, I don't understand what this has to do with my replies to your later comments.

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Originally Posted by Akuun

If it's manageable then why are you making it an issue?
There are and have been plenty of costs that make little sense to us, and have yet to be explained.

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These ones in particular stick out though because they're attached to our basic attacks. You know, those things that aren't restricted by HP/MP costs on any other class. They don't do anything mystical or magic compared to other skills that also use no MP. There's no reason for Pugilist to have MP costs, Pugilist is just a fist-fighter. It makes even less sense since Pugilist gets little MP per Mind stat and doesn't have a way of regenerating MP via skills natively.

The point isn't that we can't deal with it, it's that we shouldn't have to without good reason.

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Originally Posted by Akuun

If it's manageable then why are you making it an issue?
There are and have been plenty of costs that make little sense to us, and have yet to be explained.

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They changed Light Strike and Pummel from no MP cost to Mp cost. Nothing else.

There is a skill JUST like Pummel, called Full Thrust that has no MP cost.

Yes, I believe an explanation or a reasonable buff to account for the MP cost is in order.

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Originally Posted by Akuun

If it's manageable then why are you making it an issue?
There are and have been plenty of costs that make little sense to us, and have yet to be explained.

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So what's the harm in asking, again? Truth is PGL is the only class with MP values on TP gaining attacks. It doesn't make sense to me. Maybe someone in the battle design fell asleep on his keyboard and punched in some numbers accidentally-- who knows?!

You're not so much helping my thread directly by answering my question or making conjectures as to why this is. What I've heard out of you is:

1. Learn to play.
2. They don't matter.
3. I am misinterpreting your intentions.

Just let me ask the question, maybe someday some developer will actually look at them spend 20 seconds to write a 2 sentence answer. I can hope.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

I think it's supposed to work that way but I don't believe it does. Also isn't Parry DEX based? Until the stats work and we have per-class point allotment there's not a lot fixing this. If you're talking to me my Mind is so high because I do occasionally play mage classes and at least like to have a decent MP pool.

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Understandable about the mnd, I'm waiting for 1.19 to finish off my thaum due to the new dungeons needing more focus on the class that's being used to run efficiently.

Why create a new thread when this one has basically turned into just that? We don't need more needless threads and this one addresses the issue well enough to justify continuing the debate here.

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Originally Posted by Akuun

If it's manageable then why are you making it an issue?
There are and have been plenty of costs that make little sense to us, and have yet to be explained.




I don't know about it being entirely based on dex, I'm pretty sure that our weapons play some part.
As for dex it's the parry rate, on that I agree.
Dexterity (DEX)
Increases accuracy of physical attacks
Increases chances of evading physical attacks
Increases critical hit rate of physical attacks and resulting damage
Increases parry rate for certain weapons

But from what I and others have seen and tested, str does impact how much damage goes through on a partial parry.
Much the same as it does on shield blocking, since pugilist can't fully parry attacks.
By the way, other classes can fully parry attacks, even archer, but I don't see anyone complaining. ^^

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just because something is manageable doesnt mean it makes sense. Having asthma is manageable, it doesnt mean it has no effect.

The point is what is the reason we pay mp for 2 out of 3 basic attacks, how does it make sense for pugilist who has no mp abilities. And no mechanics around mp to pay mp for basic skills, are they too great in use? i would say no. light strike is the only thing that makes us any better at dodging then a gladiator. And honestly id be interested in finding out if pugilist even does more DD than a DD equed/stated gladiator.


the point is, there is no reason for us to pay mp, when other classes dont, there is nothing inherently better about our skills, especially when you consider that marauder has steadfast at all times, and lancer has speed surge as a job exclusive ability. the defining point of pugilist was light strike and the flurry mechanic, flurry is gone, and light strike can only exist for 1/3rd the time, and it now it has mp cost.

pummel is totally illogical since full thrust does the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Akuun

Understandable about the mnd, I'm waiting for 1.19 to finish off my thaum due to the new dungeons needing more focus on the class that's being used to run efficiently.


As I said before, I think it would be better to create a thread that asks this question, instead of joining one that cries about pugilist being singled out.

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Crying?

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Originally Posted by hotah

I was curious as to why Light Strike and Pummel requires 10 and 20 mana respectively, while the other DoW classes have no such resource requirement.

Light Stab (increase accuracy)
Heavy Stab (increase enmity)
Heavy Slash (increase enmity)

Broad Swing (conal attack)
Heavy Swing --
Full Swing (conal attack, increase enmity)

Multishot (extra shot, 15 seconds)
Heavy Shot (reduces target TP)

Heavy Thrust (bind)
Pierce (damages enemies in line)
Full Thrust --

Light Strike (increase evasion and physical defense) 10 MP
Pummel -- 20 MP
Flurry (extra attack)

What justifies it?

edit: archer skills

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Here, I color-coded it.

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Originally Posted by Akuun

Understandable about the mnd, I'm waiting for 1.19 to finish off my thaum due to the new dungeons needing more focus on the class that's being used to run efficiently.

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it sounds like crying but it is completely accurate.

1 job out of every single job that is out has been assigned an mp cost for basic skills (even mages dont have mp costs on basic skills if i rem correctly)

pugilist has been singled out and chosen to bear an additional cost mechanic to basic attacks, that cost is mp. The question is, why? and does it make any sense?

Sorry, edited my post about starting a new thread, saw so many posts of people just simply complaining, I had to read the OP again to see it was very reasonably put, my humble apologies Hotah.

Here is my view on the full thrust versus pummel
Lancer is the "TP whore" (my words) of this game, pummel does the exact same thing, I believe the mp cost may simply be the devs way of offsetting this now that LNC doesn't have the stamina edge it had before with speed surge
(basically speed surge gave them the upper hand due to the higher stamina cost of the 2 actions, but this is just my guess)
As for light strike, it's damn good, but I don't have a clue as to the possible thought process of adding MP cost.

I still stand by the idea that even with base mnd, that these small costs shouldn't be an issue for anyone.

Thanks, no hard feelings here. I also apologize for getting so defensive.

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Originally Posted by Akuun

Sorry, edited my post about starting a new thread, saw so many posts of people just simply complaining, I had to read the OP again to see it was very reasonably put, my humble apologies Hotah.

Here is my view on the full thrust versus pummel
Lancer is the "TP whore" (my words) of this game, pummel does the exact same thing, I believe the mp cost may simply be the devs way of offsetting this now that LNC doesn't have the stamina edge it had before with speed surge
(basically speed surge gave them the upper hand due to the higher stamina cost of the 2 actions, but this is just my guess)
As for light strike, it's damn good, but I don't have a clue as to the possible thought process of adding MP cost.

I still stand by the idea that even with base mnd, that these small costs shouldn't be an issue for anyone.

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speed surge is still a huge boost, the game is about tp whoring now, and they get tp faster than anyone, i wouldnt be surprised if when the dust settles they find out lnc is the king of DD now.

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Originally Posted by Akuun

Sorry, edited my post about starting a new thread, saw so many posts of people just simply complaining, I had to read the OP again to see it was very reasonably put, my humble apologies Hotah.

Here is my view on the full thrust versus pummel
Lancer is the "TP whore" (my words) of this game, pummel does the exact same thing, I believe the mp cost may simply be the devs way of offsetting this now that LNC doesn't have the stamina edge it had before with speed surge
(basically speed surge gave them the upper hand due to the higher stamina cost of the 2 actions, but this is just my guess)
As for light strike, it's damn good, but I don't have a clue as to the possible thought process of adding MP cost.

I still stand by the idea that even with base mnd, that these small costs shouldn't be an issue for anyone.

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Pummel does more damage and generates less TP than Full Thrust. It is already inherently different for PGL than for LNC - the LNC one is better.

Making Pummel Cost more MP than an elemental WS, and a handful of spells/buffs is just silly. It does nothing to merit an MP cost.