Ninja: Walk in shadow.

If you think they are going to make NIN a Dex class because of gear distribution, you should keep in mind that the left side is unique already for MNK and DRG, only the accessories are shared. This is the case with tanks, casters, and healers. Usually 2 people rolling on each acc, except for BRDs. This will not change in 2.4 with NIN. Because fights are not designed to contain more than 2 favorable melee slots. Most of them have 1 favorable melee slot.

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Originally Posted by Warrlordd

If you think they are going to make NIN a Dex class because of gear distribution, you should keep in mind that the left side is unique already for MNK and DRG, only the accessories are shared. This is the case with tanks, casters, and healers. Usually 2 people rolling on each acc, except for BRDs. This will not change in 2.4 with NIN. Because fights are not designed to contain more than 2 favorable melee slots. Most of them have 1 favorable melee slot.

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It would still mean that STR accessories now get shared across 3 jobs.

Personally I think it can be a DEX job due to synergy with Archer. I'm expecting RGE 30 + ARC 15 to unlock NIN, with the other subclass for additional skills being MNK.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

It would still mean that STR accessories now get shared across 3 jobs.

Personally I think it can be a DEX job due to synergy with Archer. I'm expecting RGE 30 + ARC 15 to unlock NIN, with the other subclass for additional skills being MNK.

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Yes but as stated as soon as musketeer comes in, in 3.0 you encounter the exact same problem with there being 3 classes that share DEX accessories. (Barring any inclusion of extra melee dps added in during the expansion)

And it's inevitable that there will be more Melee jobs than ranged, based purely on the weapons available to the Devs when it comes to choosing jobs. So no matter what at some point that balance is going to shift in melee's favour, so why fight it now?

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Originally Posted by JakzChurchill

Yes but as stated as soon as musketeer comes in, in 3.0 you encounter the exact same problem with there being 3 classes that share DEX accessories. (Barring any inclusion of extra melee dps added in during the expansion)

And it's inevitable that there will be more Melee jobs than ranged, based purely on the weapons available to the Devs when it comes to choosing jobs. So no matter what at some point that balance is going to shift in melee's favour, so why fight it now?

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We're not even sure we're getting musketeer tbf.

Yoshi P last said we would be getting a gun class, but that it "wouldn't be something people expected".

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

We're not even sure we're getting musketeer tbf.

Yoshi P last said we would be getting a gun class, but that it "wouldn't be something people expected".

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Yeah musketeer just sounds better at the moment than gun class. Unless it comes from completely left field I'd expect the gun class to utilize DEX as it's main stat, unless they go the healing route which is very out there but could be feasible.

Also did anyone notice the Naruto references in the latest gameplay video? r/Arkenaw pointed it out on Reddit, the mob he fights is called Kakashi, and the two emotes in the upper left hand of the screen are a joke about the 'Hidden Leaf Secret Finger Jutsu: One Thousand Years of Death". Pretty funny tbf.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

We're not even sure we're getting musketeer tbf.

Yoshi P last said we would be getting a gun class, but that it "wouldn't be something people expected".

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Unless the gun class's role is to pistol whip mobs in the back of the head, it is at least safe to assume it will do ranged damage, which does go under DEX. Unless SE does some weird thing and does magic bullets that require INT.

If you'd like to talk about Musketeer/Gun class please use a separate post to talk about them. This is for discussion about Ninja.

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Originally Posted by Vermilion

If you'd like to talk about Musketeer/Gun class please use a separate post to talk about them. This is for discussion about Ninja.

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It is still relevant because its in discussion of Ninja's place in the stat line and using the gun class as an example to prove a point for it.

By the argument that MUSK will break balance for DEX, we arrive at the point that whether they chose STR or DEX for NIN, they will be creating some form of imbalance in the "near" future.

I would argue, however, that NIN releases by itself, and in the upcoming patch, after which there is still going to be at least 6 months before we see any new classes/jobs (ie. the expansion). We also know that with the expansion, we will get multiple new classes and jobs (including the gun-based class).

By that logic, I would think that creating an imbalance now would have a much greater impact and is guaranteed, as opposed to the expansion where the release of multiple classes can already have itemization balance in mind.


Ultimately though, they can feasibly go with STR or DEX. It doesn't seem to be an obvious choice for them either, as YP has said that they are still working out which stat will be their primary.

I wonder if that Enhanced Dexterity trait was just left behind from 1.0 Musketeer development.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

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I feel the opposite may also become true, where if they go out there way to create a balance now, it will set a precedence for the future classes, so when the inevitable in-balance comes; the player base will be up in arms. But if they stay on the current path of In-balance is the right balance, there's less chance to cause upset and more creative freedom allowed going forward.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

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May I ask where this imbalance is if there are more jobs on one gear set than another? This isn't a game of fill in the blanks. Developers decide what the game is currently lacking and implement the job from there. Right now they believe a stealth/rogue type class is missing and wants it in. Next they might even skip the gun class and put a new tank and healer in just because the game needs more of them. People don't look at my previous statement at all. It doesn't matter how many jobs can wear a certain gear set and accessories, there are only 4-6 DPS in a full party at the time. Highly unlikely they are all there lotting your same gear.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

May I ask where this imbalance is if there are more jobs on one gear set than another? This isn't a game of fill in the blanks. Developers decide what the game is currently lacking and implement the job from there. Right now they believe a stealth/rogue type class is missing and wants it in. Next they might even skip the gun class and put a new tank and healer in just because the game needs more of them. People don't look at my previous statement at all. It doesn't matter how many jobs can wear a certain gear set and accessories, there are only 4-6 DPS in a full party at the time. Highly unlikely they are all there lotting your same gear.

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The more jobs share the same gear, the more likelihood of competition in a standard party. There really isn't anything difficult about understanding that if there are 6 DPS jobs and 3 types of DPS accessories, that having one of those types of accessories be shared by 3 jobs is rather unbalanced. Ideally it would be 2-2-2.

When the expansion hits with multiple classes, they can readily maintain this balance. It is already highly expected that we'll be getting a tank and a healer job. If there's a 3rd job, that would be the next DPS, which would make the balance 3-2-2.

A difference of one isn't bad. It's what we have now with 2-2-1. It's almost necessary, like how you build houses in Monopoly. However a situation with 3-2-1 (what we would have if they made NIN a STR-based job) would be considerably unbalanced.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

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Sounds like a personal issue. Its your choice to bring that many melee into a fight. Standard setups usually include two melee and two ranged DPS. Plenty of MMO's have classes set up where people not their exact job need the same gear also, and no balance has been broken on that end. FFXIV is eventually going to get to the point that its going to have lots of classes and jobs in the future for all roles and its still going to be treated exactly the same as it is now in terms of loot distribution. You can argue about Ninja and DEX, but your reasoning with this is not a valid claim.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Sounds like a personal issue. Its your choice to bring that many melee into a fight. Standard setups usually include two melee and two ranged DPS. Plenty of MMO's have classes set up where people not their exact job need the same gear also, and no balance has been broken on that end. FFXIV is eventually going to get to the point that its going to have lots of classes and jobs in the future for all roles and its still going to be treated exactly the same as it is now in terms of loot distribution. You can argue about Ninja and DEX, but your reasoning with this is not a valid claim.

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Uhm, no... it's the exact opposite of a personal issue. It's basic balance. Basic math. Four DPS slots in an average 8 man party. Half the DPS jobs lot on 1 type of accessory. Basic probability; especially as far as DF is concerned which is what a majority of the playerbase uses.

As for endgame, which is far from being the only thing to consider for itemization balance of this kind, there is no "standard setup". Competent endgame raid parties adjust party DPS makeup to better suit the instance in question. What is really effective for one instance isn't necessarily that effective for another. However, I suppose there will always be parties that don't care to optimize too much, and just bring what they have or try to strike a "balance" with 2 melee and 2 ranged. Hmm, I wonder why they consider 2 melee and 2 ranged a balanced, standard setup? lol

I mentioned no personal situation, circumstance or experience. Suggesting it is a personal issue is evading the actual claim I have, which is in fact valid. I'm all for having a discussion, but baseless dismissal of my arguments just won't do.

Have you considered that they will make NIN, STR and DEX based? SE has stated they have the ability to do so.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Uhm, no... it's the exact opposite of a personal issue. It's basic balance. Basic math. Four DPS slots in an average 8 man party. Half the DPS jobs lot on 1 type of accessory. Basic probability; especially as far as DF is concerned which is what a majority of the playerbase uses.

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DF can also put 4 BRD's in one party. Ask me how my last ST went when I decided to go BRD.

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As for endgame, which is far from being the only thing to consider for itemization balance of this kind, there is no "standard setup". Competent endgame raid parties adjust party DPS makeup to better suit the instance in question. What is really effective for one instance isn't necessarily that effective for another. However, I suppose there will always be parties that don't care to optimize too much, and just bring what they have or try to strike a "balance" with 2 melee and 2 ranged. Hmm, I wonder why they consider 2 melee and 2 ranged a balanced, standard setup? lol

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Sure, but at the end of the day, people are still lotting on items for their main job, which ultimately brings loot distribution back to the personal preference the raid group. If you decide to have four people be allowed to lot on the melee accessories, that is up to you and your group.

So if you decide to have 2 MNK and 2 NIN in your group, then be prepared for four players to fight over stuff. It doesn't matter at the end of the day on normal circumstances.

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Originally Posted by MythToken

Have you considered that they will make NIN, STR and DEX based? SE has stated they have the ability to do so.

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I won't dismiss your idea, but why would they have two stat weights for damage purposes? Would have to be STR enhances one aspect, and DEX on another aspect. Not saying it isn't possible, but seems more complex than it needs to be. My guess is Ninja either goes in the Striking gear along with MNK, or they may get their own gear all together.

I am for now staying under the assumption that SE is sticking to their descriptions that you see highlighting over the stat in game that STR enhances melee attack and DEX enhances ranged attack.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

DF can also put 4 BRD's in one party. Ask me how my last ST went when I decided to go BRD.

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Yeah. like I said, probability. Luck of the draw. You under stand though, that getting 3 other BRDs in your party is a very rare scenario and it sucks for you then. If any of them were any other job, it would already be better.

For melee, the other slots can be filled by any one of 3 jobs and be equally bad in terms of accessories. This is far more likely than getting 3 others of the same job.

It really isn't difficult to understand if you have a basic grasp on probability.

I mean, if it turns out that NIN is a str job and shares gear with MNK like so many people expect, as a MNK main planning to switch to a NIN main that would benefit me a great deal. However, I still feel that DEX would be a better choice for NIN in the long run for this game. Certainly the more interesting choice.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

I mean, if it turns out that NIN is a str job and shares gear with MNK like so many people expect, as a MNK main planning to switch to a NIN main that would benefit me a great deal. However, I still feel that DEX would be a better choice for NIN in the long run for this game. Certainly the more interesting choice.

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The stat that increases your ranged attack for melee weapons. You are right, that would be quite interesting.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

The stat that increases your ranged attack for melee weapons. You are right, that would be quite interesting.

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Except... it doesnt do that? Not since beta. Ranged attacks on melee jobs were switched to be STR based a long time ago. They simplified the formulas so that STR and DEX function identically as far as damage formulas go - just that DEX is used instead of STR for BRD. This further suggests that the tooltip for DEX is outdated. Wouldn't be the first time they used outdated, incorrect tooltips.

Piercing Talon, Tomahawk, Shield Lob all use STR.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

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I think you misinterpreted his wording on that one some punctuation would make it more readable.

The stat that increases your ranged attack? For melee weapons? You are right, that would be quite interesting. (I'll let you off though sarcasm doesn't translate well when not accompanied by a certain tone of voice)

But the tool tip isn't outdated, it just applies to weapons instead of skills. It maybe could do with clarifying this slightly but I don't think they should completely change it for one job. The simplicity it achieves at the moment serves it's purpose perfectly.

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Originally Posted by JakzChurchill

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The simplicity would remain fully intact, just the tooltip wording would be changed, and that's not beyond something SE would do.

In the end, DEX and STR function identically for damage formulas, just one is used instead of the other in determining what the job's attack power is.

I really don't want to get into an argument that relies on fallacy, but...

If the concern about ninja sharing accessories with other strength-based classes is perceived to somehow unbalance the classes, it fortunately does not. Already strength based classes compete with each other accessories, so the fact that another class comes in sharing the same accessories does not reduce the chances of said accessories from dropping. Those same accessories still have a similar chance of dropping just as before and the chance of obtaining said accessories still remains based on entirely on group composition (at least 20%). The eight-player full party could have four monks, or four dragoons, or four ninjas and in the end, it wouldn't matter how many strength based classes there are.There could be two, there could be one, there could be three. Unless the players themselves form an alliance for themselves consisting of 6 melee dps, the typical, balanced group (through duty finder or otherwise) generally won't see a change in overall drop rates, or chances to obtain said items. Players already compete with each other for chances to enter a group, through duty finder or elsewhere, this doesn't really change just because a new class enters the mix. Secondly, high-level accessories are already extremely rare drops. Most accessories are acquired through currencies, while most weapons are acquired through drops from boss monsters. This is unlikely to change in the short-run.

What will change, is the drop rate on weapons and armor. Like all other physical DPS classes, it is likely the Ninja will get its own set of gear at the level 50 range, in addition to seeing its own weapon drops in the level 15-50 range. In this particular realm, do the chances of players picking up new equipment decrease. But it would decrease regardless of the class entering the game. And in the long run, as more and more classes get introduced, more and more weapons and equipment needs to be introduced that can cater to them, especially when it comes to weapons.

As an aside, I'm currently going over the new video footage of the ninja from the anniversary video, lot's of great new information to discuss on here. Will post later.

If SE were to implement the two stat weights, maybe the NIN will have different stances, similar to what clerics does. There are already items out there that give both STR and DEX, some with VIT as well. It is not too far fetched that SE would take us in a different direction with both stats. Being in "x" stance converts all dex to str for X skills, being in "y" stance converts all str to dex for y skills. Kind of like clerics I spose.

Who knows. Maybe we will in a month. As for now though, I am saving all this MNK gear that I am getting for just in case.

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Originally Posted by Synestr

If SE were to implement the two stat weights, maybe the NIN will have different stances, similar to what clerics does. There are already items out there that give both STR and DEX, some with VIT as well. It is not too far fetched that SE would take us in a different direction with both stats. Being in "x" stance converts all dex to str for X skills, being in "y" stance converts all str to dex for y skills. Kind of like clerics I spose.

Who knows. Maybe we will in a month. As for now though, I am saving all this MNK gear that I am getting for just in case.

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The only possibility I can think of for Ninja requiring two different stats is for improving stealth and preventing discovery by enemies and PvP. In this sense, it's possible that the datamined information regarding improved Dex stats may be attempting to improve stealth, not physical melee damage.

Anniversary Ninja Video Observations:
-Ninja animations seem to have been shortened.
-Lagomorph from FF6 appears when player messes up Ninjutsu.
-There are three Mudra signs, followed by an activation button. Further, each Mudra activated starts a count down buff on the side. This timer is likely used to force players to input their Mudras quickly and activate them before time runs out. You can move while casting Mudras.
-Ninja attacks seem to be a combination of a branching skill chain similar to Marauders and Gladiators and off-GCD attacks. One chain ends after the second hit, and the other chain finishes off on one of two third hits which leaves a debuff on the enemy target. The other interesting element is that the ninja has a number of off-GCD cooldown abilities that aren't Mudras and can be weaved into without breaking the attack chains. Many of these appear to be damage attacks as well as debuffs, but its unclear exactly what all of them do.
-The Ninja has a mouse-clickable teleport.
-Two Ninja abilities are greyed out until the Ninja casts a certain water elemental ninjutsu, providing a small buff. Once the buff was activated, the ninja was able to press one, and only one, of two grey-out abilities, though appeared available. This may be the choice attack debuff that Ninja's must consider when fighting enemies and choosing the right one for the right situation. Like the other Off-GCD abilities, these did not break the attack chain.
-This may not be final, but may of the ninja abilities are relatively cheap. Between 50 and 60 TP with ranged and AE attacks both costing 120. Yet we don't know the cost of Ninjutsu spells, which may actually cost MP or could equally cost TP.
-The Mudra activation button, changes its icon depending on how many Mudra were activated. Although, it seems to me that it might be representing the spell that will cast when pressed.
-There seems to be a pick-pocket skill. Steal, Pilfer, Mug, whatever you want to call it.
-One Off-GCD ability immediately finishes the cooldown on the Mudras allowing them to be instantly cast again.

Watching the video again after reading your findings made more sense. It looks like it will be a lot of fun to play, the way the Mudra's build to change that one icon to toss a skill. The teleport looks cool, but I'm not sure if it is just gimicky atm. Can't wait to try it out though.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

The simplicity would remain fully intact, just the tooltip wording would be changed, and that's not beyond something SE would do.

In the end, DEX and STR function identically for damage formulas, just one is used instead of the other in determining what the job's attack power is.

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I still haven't heard a good reason why SE should go outside the simple to understand formula they have in place now. So DEX would be NIN's stat for damage even though they are a melee. The descriptions to STR and DEX are shown clear as day. So if we go by this idea, STR and DEX's meaning changes simply by the role of the class/job alone just so "it looks cool to have DEX". You don't think this won't be confusing to new players at all? Keep it simple.

I suspect NIN will share right side gear with BRD, but will have unique left side gear. Much like the relationship between DRG and MNK.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

I still haven't heard a good reason why SE should go outside the simple to understand formula they have in place now. So DEX would be NIN's stat for damage even though they are a melee. The descriptions to STR and DEX are shown clear as day. So if we go by this idea, STR and DEX's meaning changes simply by the role of the class/job alone just so "it looks cool to have DEX". You don't think this won't be confusing to new players at all? Keep it simple.

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Other MMOs have had STR and DEX as stats. Many of said MMOs have given Scout type classes DEX priority. It isn't exactly an innovation that newcomers will need to wrap their minds around.

The reason has been, and remains to be, balance and general vision of the class and how they want to define the DEX stat moving forward. Keeping DEX as a physical+ranged stat only will make it widely underutilized whereas defining it as a precision-based offensive stat will, for example, have it make sense for both physical+ranged and scout-type classes moving forward.

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Originally Posted by Dynza

I really don't want to get into an argument that relies on fallacy, but...

If the concern about ninja sharing accessories with other strength-based classes is perceived to somehow unbalance the classes, it fortunately does not. Already strength based classes compete with each other accessories, so the fact that another class comes in sharing the same accessories does not reduce the chances of said accessories from dropping. Those same accessories still have a similar chance of dropping just as before and the chance of obtaining said accessories still remains based on entirely on group composition (at least 20%).

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I never once said anything about it affecting drop rates. The luck of the draw here is in DF. More classes existing that use STR means more likelyhood of getting DPS slots filled by jobs that use STR in the DF which means more competition for those items.

As you're leveling up, or doing endgame, if you're a BRD you only compete with other BRDs in the party. If you're a MNK, DRG or NIN, you will end up competing with anybody from those 3 jobs. Again, basic probability here. Competing with half the DPS roster vs competing with only your job.

You can go around calling fallacy all you like, but I still haven't seen a viable counter to the simple probability-based imbalance I am suggesting will occur if NIN is STR-based; just a lack of comprehension.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Other MMOs have had STR and DEX as stats. Many of said MMOs have given Scout type classes DEX priority. It isn't exactly an innovation that newcomers will need to wrap their minds around.

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FFXIV is not other MMO's.

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The reason has been, and remains to be, balance and general vision of the class and how they want to define the DEX stat moving forward. Keeping DEX as a physical+ranged stat only will make it widely underutilized whereas defining it as a precision-based offensive stat will, for example, have it make sense for both physical+ranged and scout-type classes moving forward.

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They have already defined DEX, why mess with it now? It really boils down to you just want it to be DEX for the sake of being DEX. There is no true benefit to altering the stats beyond what it is now.

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I never once said anything about it affecting drop rates. The luck of the draw here is in DF. More classes existing that use STR means more likelyhood of getting DPS slots filled by jobs that use STR in the DF which means more competition for those items.

As you're leveling up, or doing endgame, if you're a BRD you only compete with other BRDs in the party. If you're a MNK, DRG or NIN, you will end up competing with anybody from those 3 jobs. Again, basic probability here. Competing with half the DPS roster vs competing with only your job.

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What you are saying is, give NIN some BRD gear because it creates this so called "imbalance" right now. What happens when a gun class comes out? Then you have three competing with each other. By your logic then, we should put the gun class in a different stat line from DEX just so it creates a balance in the DF. Do you not see that you are only thinking of now and not what is best for it in the long run? I can see this game getting up to 20+ jobs in it's life cycle and if SE goes by your logic, it will be a complex mess of what job gets what stat just so you can create this fantasy land of equality in DF.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

FFXIV is not other MMO's.

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kthnx. Incredibly valuable contribution here. I mean, FFXIV has taken no ideas or design concepts from any other MMO after all. You got me!

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They have already defined DEX, why mess with it now? It really boils down to you just want it to be DEX for the sake of being DEX. There is no true benefit to altering the stats beyond what it is now.

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Because they can if they see a reason to do so. It's not unlike them to make such simple wording changes. As for the benefits, you really seem adamant in not understanding what I'm saying.

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What you are saying is, give NIN some BRD gear because it creates this so called "imbalance" right now. What happens when a gun class comes out? Then you have three competing with each other. By your logic then, we should put the gun class in a different stat line from DEX just so it creates a balance in the DF. Do you not see that you are only thinking of now and not what is best for it in the long run? I can see this game getting up to 20+ jobs in it's life cycle and if SE goes by your logic, it will be a complex mess of what job gets what stat just so you can create this fantasy land of equality in DF.

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I already expressed what would happen when a gun class comes out. It would be no different from now - a difference of 1 between jobs-per-accessory. I'll explain it again, but for the last time.

Right now we have Slaying, Aiming and Casting accessories for DPS. STR, DEX and INT. We have 5 DPS jobs.

STR: MNK, DRG
DEX: BRD
INT: BLM, SMN

As you can see, the difference between any stat is no greater than 1 job-per-stat. This level of imbalance is necessary and acceptable. If they were to be strict about keeping those values equal, they would have to introduce 3 new DPS class/job at a time. That is simply unreasonable for both developers and players.

If NIN get's a STR build:

STR: MNK, DRG, NIN
DEX: BRD
INT: BLM, SMN

As you can see, there is a difference of 2 jobs per stat, leaning heavily towards STR being utilized. This is a heavy imbalance. If NIN is DEX-based however:

STR: MNK, DRG
DEX: BRD, NIN
INT: BLM, SMN

Each stat has equal competition in a randomly built group. As per your question though, what happens when the gun class comes? Let's call it MSK for simplicity and take a look:

STR: MNK, DRG
DEX: BRD, NIN, MSK
INT: BLM, SMN

We're simply back at the difference of 1 job-per-stat. As you can see, my logic does not involve putting MSK in a stat other than DEX.

You can argue that if NIN is STR-based, we'll have a similar 1 job-per-stat difference when MSK is released anyway, but that only solves the short term issue.

First of all, there will quite some time between 2.4 and the expansion. A minimum of 6 months, as we still have 2.5 confirmed as a patch. That's a significant amount of time to go with such an imbalance.

Secondly, how many ranged jobs can you name? Ranged + physical. How many melee jobs can you name? As we continue to get new jobs, how much do you think DEX will be represented as a primary stat compared to STR if SE goes by the basic convention of STR = physical melee weapons and DEX = physical ranged weapons? Did you give that any thought?

At this point, I feel I've expressed my thoughts as clear as day. Furthermore, all I'm seeing in response is a lack of comprehension or outright disagreement without any actual substantial reason beyond "this is what the tooltips for STR and DEX currently say".
So, if somebody makes a compelling argument against the points I've made, I'm happy to continue. Otherwise, I'll be here playing the game and waiting until an official announcement or 2.4 release to see what they go with.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

so

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Basically, it doesn't matter if they put it STR now or DEX now.　STR, 3 classes roll　in the near future. DEX, 3 classes roll in the far future. So that's a case closed argument.

As for NIN being STR, I'd like to believe Naoki wasn't joking when he said to save our melee gear. I've been gathering many i110 STR gear in anticipation that he wasn't trying to appease us.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Basically, it doesn't matter if they put it STR now or DEX now.　STR, 3 classes roll　in the near future. DEX, 3 classes roll in the far future. So that's a case closed argument.

As for NIN being STR, I'd like to believe Naoki wasn't joking when he said to save our melee gear. I've been gathering many i110 STR gear in anticipation that he wasn't trying to appease us.

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I was going to make a long post in reaction to his, but this sums it up nicely. Getting tired of beating a dead horse at this point. Let 2.4 come out and see what happens.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Basically, it doesn't matter if they put it STR now or DEX now.　STR, 3 classes roll　in the near future. DEX, 3 classes roll in the far future. So that's a case closed argument.

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Again, missing the entire damn point. Holy cow, it's downright amazing how blind one can chose to be.

The point isn't the damn 3. Having 3 jobs for 1 statisn't, by itself, the point. The point is having 1 stat shared by 3 jobs whist another stat is exclusive to 1 job, simultaneously, is the point. The difference of 2+ between stats. That's the freaking point. I thought I spelled it out above, but even that isn't enough apparently lol.

So, no. It's not a case closed argument. In fact, there has been no effective counter-argument. Just a bunch of people who want it to be case-closed lol.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

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We know what you are saying. But you want to completely alter stats to just have your balance put into place, not for the actual sense of making NIN a DEX based class. That is why you make no sense. You would make more sense if you said "They should of put gun class in before Ninja to balance the loot tables.". There is no need to change how stats work in this game to cater to one job and how the loot distribution is right now.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

We know what you are saying. But you want to completely alter stats to just have your balance put into place, not for the actual sense of making NIN a DEX based class. That is why you make no sense. You would make more sense if you said "They should of put gun class in before Ninja to balance the loot tables.". There is no need to change how stats work in this game to cater to one job and how the loot distribution is right now.

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I further emphasized that with the way the stats are worded now, there will inevitably be a growing imbalance because physical melee jobs are more abundant in number than physical ranged jobs. But sure, chose not to actually address what I'm saying and suggest I make no sense and that you understand me whilst demonstrating that you don't.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

I further emphasized that with the way the stats are worded now, there will inevitably be a growing imbalance because physical melee jobs are more abundant in number than physical ranged jobs. But sure, chose not to actually address what I'm saying and suggest I make no sense and that you understand me whilst demonstrating that you don't.

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That is irrelevant, SE can as easily make more ranged damage dealers. Who exactly expected a job like Corsair, or making a Bard a ranged DPS for that matter?

Why do some of you get your underwear in a bunch. This arguing about a class and job that will be coming out only in october, lol
Everyone has a right to their opinion but nobody knows yet or have actual real facts yet as SE have not released much as of yet.
I do expect they will release info coming September however. So chill out folks, haha

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Originally Posted by Velhart

That is irrelevant, SE can as easily make more ranged damage dealers. Who exactly expected a job like Corsair, or making a Bard a ranged DPS for that matter?

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So SE will make a large number of physical ranged jobs to utilize their narrow definition of DEX as it is now in a manner balanced with melee jobs. Furthermore, there will be new casters added, who are also traditionally ranged.

A significant number of the DPS jobs in the game will be ranged. Nice.

The way DEX is defined now, either DEX remains an under-utilized stat, or the game's DPS roster becomes heavily ranged. Can't have both, unfortunately. That is unless they broaden the scope of DEX or INT, so INT is used for physical attacks at melee range for some magical knight type jobs or DEX is used at melee range for scout or other precision-over-power type jobs.


Ultimately, to clarify, I'm not suggesting that DEX will be the stat for Rogue and Ninja for sure. Nobody can say that. I am simply countering any notion that STR is essentially guaranteed to be the stat, and suggesting that they can feasibly go with STR or DEX at this point. In addition to that, I am giving reasons for why I, personally, think DEX would be the wiser choice.