If it is historical sexism as you suggest, then why is the earliest example of it being suggested for that purpose in the published work of a woman?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimmy_Dee
Being Gendered Correctly
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05-07-2014, 04:23 PMTharian
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05-07-2014, 04:23 PMGilraenI don't assume anything because I don't refer to anyone by anything other than their name. It spares me from having to explain to others who I'm talking about and it's just polite. Now, I do lapse sometimes and break out the pronouns but they'd have to be real idiots or flat out rude cusses for that to happen. You know, don't want to act like a person I won't treat them as one. But that's not the crux of the discussion here, is it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimmy_Dee
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05-07-2014, 04:23 PMMassterchefDifference being, in the real world people have a clear view of the person behind the monitor. However in an MMO no one can accurately know your gender based on name/gender of character, and they shouldn't be expected to know. My character name is female,character gender is female, and guess what? I'm a guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimmy_Dee
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05-07-2014, 04:26 PMSpotI don't think anyone should tell you how or what to feel. How you feel about something is for you personally have to deal with on your own. No one is under any kind of obligation to cater to your feelings. I understand that your gender identity may be a sensitive subject and is a huge deal to you, however you need to also understand that other people don't think it is a big deal and don't care. You have no more right to tell them to care about about your personal circumstances than they do to tell you to about how you should feel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jewelfox
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05-07-2014, 04:27 PMMarowit
Kimmy if you're going to allow being called a he by random strangers online who have no ill will towards you or any idea about you being transgender might I suggest you find the LGBT directory thread and joining one of those guilds so you can avoid the general population. Don't want to be mean, but your personal circumstances don't mean a lot to the average person and you'll probably only continue to be hurt because people don't ask what gender someone is and or what they identify as before beginning a conversation.
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05-07-2014, 04:29 PMMercuryAcetylene
I dont get the big deal... im called a she all the time in game, doesn't bother me none. I really could care less about gender specification.
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05-07-2014, 04:29 PMKimmy_DeeBecause it is common for women to internalize sexism, act on it, and even go so far as to defend it. Because when you live in a horridly sexist society, that sorta stuff rubs off on you in lots of ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tharian
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05-07-2014, 04:30 PMDeifact
Hmm I guess I must be really ignorant as I didn't even know this was an issue. I always use the characters gender (unless I know them personally) and have never had anyone correct me or anything.
It's stupid for people to assume female characters are males, just use "she" if its a female character and "he" if they're male. At least then if someone gets upset they don't have as much of a leg to stand on.
Unfortunately/fortunately though it's 1000 times easier to change yourself than other people. So instead of trying to get others to stop calling you "he", just learn to not let it bother you. You'll save much energy! -
05-07-2014, 04:33 PMKimmy_Dee
"Instead of trying to get others to not step on your toes, try not letting your toes being stepped on bother you."
Even if they aren't stepping on my toes on purpose, they're still stepping on my toes, and this thread is me asking people to stop stepping on my toes. -
05-07-2014, 04:36 PMTharianOMFG, did you really just say that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimmy_Dee
First off, learn your history. The Late 18th Century Europe and America were not a "Horridly Sexist Society" by any means of the definition. For that you would have wanted to go all the way back to the 1690's Salem, Massachusetts or the Modern Day Arab Countries that have Sharia Law instituted in them.
In fact, by the 18th to 19th Century, the Women tended to have more power than the Men in their individual relationships. Not to mention that one of the most powerful Monarch's in the entirety of British History ascended to the Throne by 1837, and Queen Victoria just happens to have been a woman.
And just so we are clear, the Salem Witch Trials were instigated by a group of Teenage (or younger) Girls that simply wanted people to notice them. Unfortunately hysteria happened and things went south. -
05-07-2014, 04:42 PMEijii
I assume everyone is a guy till I actually speak with the person on Team Speak only because men love playing female characters... this is normal in all MMOs... not new... move on etc
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05-07-2014, 04:49 PMPandastirfryQuote:
Originally Posted by Tharian
Just gonna throw this out there, the Salem witch trials were more about class warfare and petty revenge than "sexism". Whole families were accused of witchcraft (and not even kidding, two dogs, a cow, a pig and a monkey, they were all executed. Talk about a... Kangaroo court...) -
05-07-2014, 04:51 PMCrimen
Most players will never think that being classified as the wrong gender to be insulting. I understand your case is sensitive, but no one means you harm, and it's something you need to deal with since no one is going to think "Oh, for x or y reason, this person might be sensitive to what we refer to them as". I always refer to people as the character's gender, but you cannot force everyone else to do the same. A guy I once spoke to on mumble laughed and said "Okay, so you are a girl. I just assume everyone who plays a girl to be a guy until they get on voice chat." And the only reason for this is cause of so many guys pretending to be chicks, or simply like to play as one. It sort of becomes a habit to expect a guy, I guess.
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05-07-2014, 04:53 PMTharianThis is absolutely true, but it was all started because a handful of girls took a prank a little too far and the people in power believed their prank to be real. It actually says a lot more about the power of myth within a close nit community of highly devout Christians than it does about actual class warfare or sexism. That doesn't change the fact that for the first month or so the vast majority of the victims were females.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandastirfry
Nor does it change the fact that the thing that actually ended the Salem Witch Trials was that an overzealous court actually accused the then Governor of Massachusetts' wife of witchcraft. -
05-07-2014, 05:03 PMMackaThat's just creepy. So, the only way you will believe a female is a female is if you chat with her personally. Okay, good luck wirh that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eijii
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05-07-2014, 05:04 PMElvie
It seems that the objections in this thread to the OP's perfectly reasonable suggestion that people gender characters in game according to their presented gender boil down to:
"I don't care" and "most players are male".
Neither of these are valid arguments against the proposal.
To those boys who object so much to the idea: How exactly does it hurt you if players are refererred to as the gender of their in-game character. If you are wrong the player is free to correct you or not as they choose. If they are playing a different gender to their real life one then they have still made a choice to present as a different gender in game, and have literally no cause for offense.
One point being missed is that the reason it is offensive to many women to be assumed male whilst presenting as a female character is that we have spent years being told we do not exist. Even in this thread there are those who insist that because they *think* 90% of players or more are male, then that must be true. I am not a special snowflake for being female whilst playing a game. And given the number of women players I know who choose to pretend they are male in mmos, I really wouldn't be trusting my assumptions that "everyone is a dude unless they correct me". That's, honestly, a bit of a delusional position to take. And there are plenty of valid studies out there that prove me right. Go google, you might learn something. Make sure you check the methodology on the studies too. The ones that account for things like type of game funnily enough are the ones which support what I and other women here are saying: We exist, and in greater numbers than the average mmo gamer likes to believe. -
05-07-2014, 05:05 PMTharianIn my case I will take them at their word. Otherwise I just go based off what gender their character is. Though in some cases with Lalafell it is kind of difficult to tell depending on the hairstyle of the character in question. Though I will be pretty upfront about my own gender unless I am "In-Character" at the time, but that usually will only happen with people that already know my real gender.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macka
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05-07-2014, 05:06 PMSeif
English is not my native tongue so this is a honest question.
Is referring to someone as "that guy" gender neutral?
If not then what would you suggest would be gender neutral term in situations where you're not sure who's playing the character?
As a side note I'm NOT a roleplayer but I do think that using chat is our characters talking to one another so using the gender of the used character is preferred.
HOWEVER rarely if EVER do I even seen the character I'm talking to. My player character names are switched off (the game looks so much better this way!) so the names I'm sending the tell to are names I see on my pt list or chat box. There is NO WAY to tell the sex of that character unless the name itself is very feminine. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I've made the "guy" assumption sometimes too but NOT based on the character's appearance or sex at all. -
05-07-2014, 05:08 PMCosmoswan
it's lack of men that telling of their loves for women in this post ^^ so i purpose to be one of them : THERE ARE ALSO MEN WHO LOVE TO PLAYYYYY WITH YOU AND NEVER COULD SAY NO TO A FEMALE CHARAAAAACTERR <3
sexiest society : brrrrrrrr No No nO never see that in FF
So we are proude , so menheart don't support to be tricked by falsename female character , so all apologies if sometimes we aren't 100%confiant at first time =/ -
05-07-2014, 05:10 PMMoheeheeko
Seriously, some people need to get some thicker skin.
It's an honest mistake, deal with it.
Jesus. -
05-07-2014, 05:13 PMMackaWho Hey ZeusQuote:
Originally Posted by Moheeheeko
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05-07-2014, 05:13 PMPandastirfryTechnically... Yes... Idiomaticaly ... No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seif
Really the only way to do it is "that person" or "them" with the latter being the least exact as "them" or "they" has various different uses.
Basically, using the dictionary definition, "Guy" in its singular form is gender specific, meaning a man or boy, conversely in its plural form it is defined as gender neutral, as persons of either sex. To make matters even more complex, specifically in video games, "Guy" is often used as a slang term for character sprites or "lives" regardless of gender of the character being referred to.
This is one of the reasons English is a confusing language to most non-native speakers. Our abundance of homophones, lack of gender specific nouns/verb tenses, and baffleing grammatical rules between spoken and written can make it difficult. (For even native speakers in some cases) -
05-07-2014, 05:20 PMNoshpan
Regardless of what gender I choose to play for my characters, I am frequently referred to as "he". I don't bother correcting strangers. I don't need to correct people who already know me, whom have heard me speak. Sometimes I prefer it so that I won't get the "ur a gurl? tits or gtfo", "oh u dont want to sho pics? must be fat & ugly lol" or any other string of derogatory language regarding my biological gender.
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05-07-2014, 05:22 PMRynia
Unfortunately for you OP, the rules and norms around gendering people correctly are actually not very well-known at all outside of the trans community. It must hurt, but really you have no choice but to just put up with it - social norms aren't going to change that quickly, even on the internet. Especially on the internet xD The vast majority of people have never even encountered a trans person (knowingly, at least) and thus are unaware of the struggles you face so won't even think twice before just assuming something about someone's gender.
As this thread has shown already, you won't get much sympathy here. I wish it were otherwise =/
I personally just go by character gender. If I misgender someone and they tell me, I'll roll with it. A lot of people actually assume I'm a bloke for whatever reason xD -
05-07-2014, 05:45 PMKimmy_Dee
Why should I be okay with an "honest mistake" when people in this very thread say they will make no attempt whatsoever to avoid repeating that mistake in the future.
That's a bit too deliberate to be called a mistake at this point. Your actions have results, which you have been made aware of, and if you continue the same actions you do so knowing they will continue to have those results. That's not a mistake. That's laziness at best. -
05-07-2014, 05:51 PMPenguinmayhem
English doesn't have a convenient non-gender-specific third-person pronoun like Japanese does. So it's either pick one and risk offending someone, or say "it". And nobody takes very kindly to being called "it".
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05-07-2014, 05:52 PMMerle
I usually agree with this kind of topics, but this time... i think OP is making a mountain out of a molehill...
I call character by their gender. Female character: "She". Male character "he". If they correct me i'll change. Maybe i'll forget it 2 days laters since i have bad memory, not because laziness.
99% of my friends on this kind of games are guys, so i use "he" as default because i'm used to it. I'm not trying to offend a female player. People can't know your situation if you don't tell them, so correct them if it offends you, but... really, almost every player will call you "he" by default and there is no bad intention there. """"""Deal with it"""""". -
05-07-2014, 05:52 PMDijana
Im a female gamer, and eventually I just stopped caring. I'll admit I quite often assume people are male, a lot of the time I'm not actually paying attention to the character itself. I certainly dont assume everyone on the internet is a man, but it seems more common. Pretty much every friend I've made on ff14 who I thought was a woman turned out to be a man once I heard them on voice chat. I really don't think it's something to be offended about if they just call you he and they're randoms.
But like I said, if they're RANDOMS. People you just get matched with in DF? Sure its annoying but who cares, I can tell you there are people out there who would get offended if people were asking them if they really were female, some of whom probably are the same ones who get offended at being called he without question (aka some people just want an excuse to be offended, not saying that about anyone in particular here). If they're people in your fc or who you regularly hang out with? Yes they should at least learn what to call you. If you correct them at some point, whether they be random df people or fc-mates, and they come up with some stupid line 'lol there's no girls on the internet' THEN I'd be annoyed.
Sadly that last one seems to happen quite often :/ -
05-07-2014, 05:57 PMChokee
i call everyone by their character's forename.
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05-07-2014, 05:59 PMSeifShe has a point there. Still even with the instructions someone said to my questions about pronouns I can tell for a fact that I don't see people using those gender neutral ways of writing ever. I can only assume it's not natural way of writing to one another in English. (?)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimmy_Dee
I would say that endure it the first time but if it bothers you correct them and after that it really is okay to assume they should know.
This is not about the OP's character but as a personal note I would assume someone named Kimmy is female. Kim however could be either way so that's one instance where I might easily make that mistake.
Also thanks to the OP for bringing this up! Really it's great and that's something that I didn't even think about before you spoke up =) -
05-07-2014, 05:59 PMTharian
Kimmy_Dee what you have to understand is that the LGBT community is a minority group. The vast majority of people in this game should not be expected to have to change their behavior just because of a small handful of people.
Additionally, now that you have come here and made your Rant, I doubt you will come across anyone who has seen your Rant who will actually mislabel the character whose name is attached to the account you are posting under. That said however, I have to ask if you really expect someone who hasn't seen your character before, and who doesn't know you are in fact a trans female, to be able to correctly identify you're IRL gender simply based on a digital character? Especially when considering that there are in fact some male-gendered gamers out there who think that female lalafell are cute and play them because of that fact alone. And that isn't even counting the fact that if we throw a helmet on your character it becomes almost impossible to distinguish a female Lalafell from a male lalafell, at least on the other races there are two exceedingly prominent features on the females of the races to help in that distinction.
Although Lalafell Females have a breast-size slider, the amount of size it modulates is almost so insignificant as to be non-existent. -
05-07-2014, 06:07 PMRicky
This does not matter enough to put thought into, I have called female characters 'she' in the past only to have guys complain, so you will be called whatever I want and you will like it
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05-07-2014, 06:12 PMTharianDoes that mean I have to like it if you want to call me an A-Hole?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky
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05-07-2014, 06:14 PMBeetle
Call me whatever you want. If I dont like it then ill blacklist. There I have fixed the issue. End thread.
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05-07-2014, 06:15 PMQfox
i dont get your topic meaning bro ... and people who play miqu'ote must be called it i believe ?!
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05-07-2014, 06:22 PMSuki-
Hi Kimmy :)
This is just my opinion but you (and any player taking offence to being addressed incorrectly) shouldn't take people calling you a 'he' to heart. I'm sorry you're hurt but there's no ill intention behind it. It's an assumption that has been carved into the online community. If they make a mistake just correct them. Or write it in your comment box ^^
I'm a female gamer & have been called 'he/him/bro' what-have-you despite playing a female character with a female name. It doesn't bother me so I rarely correct them. Especially if it's DF randoms who I'll probably never see again.
I do agree with your point of addressing players by the gender of their characters. Unless told otherwise. And it's my assumption that there would be a lot of that haha :) -
05-07-2014, 06:26 PMTharianYou can only black list 200 people. I don't know about anyone else, but mine is currently sitting at about half full, the majority of people filling the first 100 entries on my list are RMT. I don't really have room on my list to black list anyone other than RMT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beetle
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05-07-2014, 06:37 PMsilentwindfr
personally i do use the gender of the character, since i can't be sure what is the gender of the person behind the character.
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05-07-2014, 06:38 PMRazzle
im a male so I dont experience that like you do. And I do adress gender based on avatar. But putting myself in your shoes, I don't think I'd really care if people adressed me as she... It's just a game and they can't see who I really am so it's not like they do it on purpose. People join a run and want to get X content done, it's not like when ppl start a party they need to list their genders to not insult anyone that'd be silly imo.
If i got annoyed by it for whatever reason (which i doubt I would) I'd just tell them to adress me as male... -
05-07-2014, 06:40 PMMcshiggsYou just said that your black list is half full, half of 200 is only 100, so you have plenty of room on it to still add people to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tharian