PVP Wintrade Exploitation, is this reportable?

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Originally Posted by Okazaki

Excuse me , but people exploiting through dungeons also dont affect my experience directly, and SE is more than happy to punish those who abuse it. The queues take long because the pool of people legitimately doing pvp has decreased, and having people exploit the queing system to never show up on anyone elses game is a DIRECT result that does in fact affect my queue time/ experience as you call it.

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Because people doing pvp tradewins causes you to have slower que times? Wrong. They Que faster because the groups are near each other ranks. If a group cant match another group near there rank some downtime happens (5mins) and it ques with the next lowerest ranking group. Also not many people actually queing for pvp so you would still have instences to enter. When que times take hour... that when stuff is full and also busy.

Say Rank4 Group vs Rank160 group it take about 5-10mins still to actually que up together regurdless if it was a premade or not. Its SE way a matching ranking teams together. If group rank50 vs rank 45 they que within about 5secs.

double post

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Originally Posted by Beetle

Because people doing pvp tradewins causes you to have slower que times? Wrong. They Que faster because the groups are near each other ranks. If a group cant match another group near there rank some downtime happens (5mins) and it ques with the next lowerest ranking group. Also not many people actually queing for pvp so you would still have instences to enter. When que times take hour... that when stuff is full and also busy.

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Yeah because having a ton of overgeared wintrading cheats in iLVL 90 gear won't affect frontlines at all.
Thanks for ruining the game.

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Originally Posted by Logo

Yeah because having a ton of overgeared wintrading cheats in iLVL 90 gear won't affect frontlines at all.
Thanks for ruining the game.

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not saying this will happen, but some people just want the gear for vanity. i doubt a lot of them will continue pvping and do frontlines once they get their pretties.

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Originally Posted by Logo

Yeah because having a ton of overgeared wintrading cheats in iLVL 90 gear won't affect frontlines at all.
Thanks for ruining the game.

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Just because you have the gear doesn't mean anything about how you play in PvP. So your saying its a gear check to even enter frontlines.
Pretty sure gear not gonna do anything when I got 16 people bashing me in the face in pvp.

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Originally Posted by Logo

This justifies ruining the system more how?

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Yeah. The best that system can do is dissapear. I woud vote to take it out of the game and put that gear on dungeons or something like that.




That woud be the best way to manage it. Cause it is so bad that it is far beyond salvation. It can not be ruined, it is a ruin.
So if some players want to do this to give some use do the content (Vanity), is totally ok for me. It doesn't cause me any trouble. They're not getting something that I think shoud be an achievement for playing. Why? Cause they're getting something that you woud get just for loosing several times. (Yeah, loosing gives you wolf marks) And they're getting it from a system so bad that I woud be happy if it didn't exist. I understand that if you are one of the 10-20 guys in the game who like PVP is doesn't sound fair to you, but really, PVP is so bad that I don't care at all. Kill it with fire :D

By the way, the more important save is the time waiting for a match. I mean, a group of 8 players that make 2 teams and fight each other again and again and again will get a lot of marks too. Woud that be an exploit too? No? And how do you know if they're loosing on purpose? I mean, for sure. They can be having lag issues or just be really bad. I mean, I've being in dungeons with players so bad that I thought they were doing it on purpose.

You're asking SE to bann people for getting theiselves killed in purpose?

Ok, I'm ok with it. But please, also bann those players that get hit by landslides again and again and again. I mean, it can happend to anyone once, but not that much. They are surely trolling.

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Originally Posted by Woona

not saying this will happen, but some people just want the gear for vanity. i doubt a lot of them will continue pvping and do frontlines once they get their pretties.

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Kinda takes away the luster of earning it.
Maybe people should hack coil just for the glamour.
keep justifying though.

Just start calling every ilvl100 u see a wintrader, only thing u can do about it right now

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Originally Posted by Logo

Kinda takes away the luster of earning it.
Maybe people should hack coil just for the glamour.
keep justifying though.

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In 1.0 you had to single craft hole bunch of stuff toget a golden hammer and in 2.0 you could auto-craft 99 of them and watch TV.
About 13 hours later of auto-crafting you got your golden hammer. Keep justifying your point.

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Originally Posted by Logo

Kinda takes away the luster of earning it.
Maybe people should hack coil just for the glamour.
keep justifying though.

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But those guys are not hacking anything. They're just letting theirselves die.

I'm totally ok if people wants to let theirselves die in Coil Too :D

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Originally Posted by Logo

Kinda takes away the luster of earning it.
Maybe people should hack coil just for the glamour.
keep justifying though.

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Not exactly sure how you can even relate the two. With PvP win trading there are no game breaking exploits to the way anything is coded. These people just found a way to get matched up together. They're doing nothing different than the FCs who queue as 3 Full Parties for CT so that they don't have to deal with random PUGs. Should they be reported and banned as well? How about the people who queue up for in-progress dungeons only and leave if they don't get one with the desired number of bosses dead?

With the initial Coil exploits (yes, a true exploit) they were taking advantage of a bug in the coding to make Twintania stop doing anything but auto attacks all together. Other people were using a third party program to POS hack above her to avoid being hit by anything. These two instances are in no way even close to comparable.

If you're that hardcore into PVP that people "win trading" is giving you an ulcer then there's nothing stopping you from using these very forums or another avenue of your choice and setting up a group of pre-made parties that you can queue against to have reduced queue times and have legitimate PVP matches, thus letting you rank up faster and get marks at an increased rate.

And before you go grabbing the pitch fork and start accusing me of anything, my achievements are open to view. I don't PVP at all.

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Originally Posted by Beetle

In 1.0 you had to single craft hole bunch of stuff toget a golden hammer and in 2.0 you could auto-craft 99 of them and watch TV.
About 13 hours later of auto-crafting you got your golden hammer. Keep justifying your point.

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And that was also against ToS for using 3rd party programs, and people did get punished, not everybody but it happened

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

Not exactly sure how you can even relate the two. With PvP win trading there are no game breaking exploits to the way anything is coded. These people just found a way to get matched up together. They're doing nothing different than the FCs who queue as 3 Full Parties for CT so that they don't have to deal with random PUGs. Should they be reported and banned as well? How about the people who queue up for in-progress dungeons only and leave if they don't get one with the desired number of bosses dead?

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You do notice you are leaving out the part about throwing matches.
Essentially removing the PVP from the action of gaining PVP levels.
Further breaking a fragile system.
Right?

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Originally Posted by Beetle

Do people even realize how many PvP matches you actually need to win in order toget rank40...? (2000-4000 matches)

(snipped nonsensical statements and made up percentages.)

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Why must everything be instant?

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Originally Posted by Logo

Why must everything be instant?

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Exactly this, this is something that is supposed to require an effort.

And how Tyrial said something about comparing this to coil, I recall that coil bug basically making twintania not attack back, that and win trading are very very similar in that respect.

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Originally Posted by Logo

You do notice you are leaving out the part about throwing matches.
Essentially removing the PVP from the action of gaining PVP levels.
Further breaking a fragile system.
Right?

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I really don't see how "throwing matches" is such a big deal. What's the difference between stacking the deck in your favor and face rolling another under geared/skilled group in a normal match or two groups of friends hopping in queue together and having fun. Should we now dictate what the socially acceptable idea of "fun" is just because it goes against how you feel everyone who does said activity should be doing it? If that's the case then please go and make threads and start complaining about 8-man parties for PVE content that are going in with any group composition other than the "optimal" one and by optimal I'm talking two tanks, two healers and 4 DPS.

I guess I'm not seeing the big deal when a good 75-80% (it's a guess) of the people doing this are strictly doing it for vanity and then you'll never see them in PVP again. Is it shady? Sure. Is it really going to hinder your enjoyment of PVP? More than likely not. Especially given that the small percentage who do stick around to PVP after they rush to Rank 40 are going to be so horrible at it that you're going to be able to roll them regardless of the gear.

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Originally Posted by Okazaki

And how Tyrial said something about comparing this to coil, I recall that coil bug basically making twintania not attack back, that and win trading are very very similar in that respect.

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She did attack back, it was just auto attacks. She didn't use any skills. This was information given directly from Yoshi and his team when they discussed the bug and the bans for people using it.

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

She did attack back, it was just auto attacks. She didn't use any skills. This was information given directly from Yoshi and his team when they discussed the bug and the bans for people using it.

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ah yes, essentially eliminating 95% of the purpose of the fight. And changes its differences how exactly? PVP is designed to be a competitive scene for players to Fight each other, it's purpose is not a vanity shopping mall.

You want to vanity the gear? That is totally fine, I couldn't care less, but earn it like the rest of us are trying to. I want to look fancy in my bear suit just as much as the next warrior and no PVP isnt my go to thing on mmos, but I know how to respect the purpose of these match making systems.

People should also know, although many do this for vanity, there are also others who do it just to have a clear advantage in PVP before others. This behaviour is not appreciated in other games and it shouldnt be here aswell.

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Originally Posted by 65shion

Win traders doesn't affect your gameplay in any way. Why what others do in their free time bothers you so much? There is absolutely none people playing PvP, that queues take HOURS to pop

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I had a few i100 smns and drgns pvp against me and my random team of pve geared and i70-i90 groups.
Let's just say they wrecked us and anyone who was against them.
Their dps was off the charts lol usually resulting in 1 more digit than the other dps. I used attunement , sacred prism and got melted like as if i was naked and had no gear on.
So yes their wintrading gear affected my game and the other 3 on my team. It wasn't fun and especially wasn't fun to face them a few times in a row. Also depending on time, langauge settings and i think roles & rank u can usually get less than 5 min qeues.
So it sucks when those win traders decides to pvp against other ppl with low gear.

If yoshi did later on found this as an offence via banning, reseting rank etc. You would see a lot of QQ on the threads as technically 99.9% of ppl running around with i100 pvp gear must have wintraded at some point to have obtained the gear. Only legit piece i think that would be obtained atm would be the feet as it's only r32 i think and the ring.

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Originally Posted by Okazaki

You want to vanity the gear? That is totally fine, I couldn't care less, but earn it like the rest of us are trying to.

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If this is the case then should we also report the people forming PF groups to just farm the first room in Darkhold and Aurum Vale for EXP to power level themselves to 50? It's essentially the same thing that you're saying for PVP. That's not how anyone intended the dungeons to be run, yet they're "exploiting" the system to speed up the leveling process. Should they get a ban and/or have their level rolled back and gear stripped? The same could also be said for people who speed run myth farm and leave Brayflox HM after the second boss. Are they any less deserving of an Animus weapon than the guy who did nothing but full dungeon clears?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're wrong with what you're saying, I'm merely playing Devil's Advocate. But the real blame here falls on SE for not seeing that things like this would happen.

I wish SE would stop wasting time on PvP and think up better ideas for the rest of the game.

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Originally Posted by Logo

Why must everything be instant?

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Why do you think 4000 wins (7000-8000 matches, if the matchmaking works correctly) is a reasonable amount?

I can't think of another pve-focused game that asks as much time to get to the highest level in pvp.
Even in vanilla wow the grind to rank 16 was less ridiculous.

I don't understand why mods/devs let people debate whether or not something is exploitable. Why not just take the 3 minutes to answer it ;x

Noped out of pvp when my friend's queue passed 100 minutes with no match. I'm hoping that SE makes the PVP progression more reasonable or they just let people wintrade their way.

PvP is awful so I don't blame them.

PvP should never give any items. That just brings in non-pvp people to pvp and you get more players but who couldn't care less about putting effort into it.

Just a top 100 ranking or something so pvpers can show how good they are, because that is the only thing a pvper needs, and something everyone who doesn't play pvp couldn't care less about.

I really can't imagine 4000 more matches of the same recycled shiz over and over just to get to rank 30 to 40. I'm only 18 right now and it's already getting repetitive as hell. I only want rank 40 for the armor.

Hopefully when frontlines comes out they'll use the same morale system and you can earn wolfmarks from that and rank up so that at least you can get variety...

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Originally Posted by Sax

Because you're stacking the odds in your favour vs. those who are solo queuing 'as intended'. Except in this case, where you could be win trading, you've just screwed a group of randoms that followed the way you think it should be played. You can't pick and chose. If win-trading is an exploit, then anyone who is not solo queuing and making 3 ppl premades to give themselves a distinct advantage are also cheating.'

As for the whole prestige argument, you could quite conceivably lose your way to rank 40. Guess you should ban bads too...

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If you think team work is exploiting a system of any kind, I dont think the multiplayer environment is going to go that far for you.... there is a reason the pvp is 2 teams, this isnt a free for all....

Do you realize that people who are doing 8000 tradewins to rank up just to glamour the pvp armor over their pve set will feel like they've wasted countless hours of gameplay when the next patch comes up with a newer, shinier armor they'll want to glamour?

Let them do it and then /point / laugh.

On a moral level, I think it is disgusting and the XIV team should have zero tolerance for it. The entire idea of PvP is establishing a competitive environment between players, take that out and it's wholly pointless.

But on an enjoyment level, I won't lie, I can understand why people do it. The gear is cool, but the PvP itself is woefully terrible. Even if the queue times were miraculously instant, it's 4v4 in the same tiny arena, with the healers roleplaying as NASCARs, valiantly turning left as hard as they can, while at least one person chases them to Benny Hill music. It was hilarious at first, that this is Naoki "I loved Dark Age of Camelot" Yoshida's vision for PvP, but I feel like the joke has gone slightly stale so many months later. Many people loathed FFXI's Ballista, but I'll be damned if it was not infinitely superior to what we currently have in XIV.

Perhaps if they made something actually playable, there would be less people scumming the rank grind, although I am not naive enough to say they all would stop.

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Originally Posted by Nanaya

It was hilarious at first, that this is Naoki "I loved Dark Age of Camelot" Yoshida's vision for PvP

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That will, suposedly, be the Frontlines pvp from 2.3

To me pvp is to let people play their class to compete who is better at playing each class against other players. The win trading put me off so much, it's sad. PvP er should play to compete not trade wins for 10 hours a day to get some loot. And it broke the system for me, even though queues are pretty much breaking it all by themselves. I used to love it simply because solo queue and get a fight every now and then, wish it was insta. Wish melee had one on ones, and wish frontlines will somewhat fix the broken pvp in this game. I love this setting and world, and that's the only reason I played. If rvr is like daoc then i'll be playing none stop if it fails then I gotta wait for an awesome pvp game to come out, because gw2 is a zerg fest without any strong community, and an older game I played has died off.

it really take 4000 wins to get to rank 40?

win trading puts me off pvp in all games, they did it in WoW when I used to play it and it was disgusting.

It's the equivalent of getting a new content patch with a dungeon that has a lvl 1 rat with a relic treasure chest in it and no risk.

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Originally Posted by Karnyboy

It's the equivalent of getting a new content patch with a dungeon that has a lvl 1 rat with a relic treasure chest in it and no risk.

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Actually, that's not so different from what happened with the new dungeon in 2.2!

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Originally Posted by cruailsama

it really take 4000 wins to get to rank 40?

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With 50/50 win loss ratio its about 2.8k matches.

I fully support Wintrading with this current PVP.

I don't do it because I loathe the PVP in this game too much to care but I would do it if I did. Maybe SE shouldn't half-arse content.

Reading here that ranks have to be removed, and that wintrade is ok because you don't like PvP is as is, is quite questionable.

Removing ranks, makes the PvP a no-no for anyone who starts PvP, because being matched with veterans will makes you pwned in no time, and you don't even learn nothing from it. Not to mention, if a new PvP'er starts try this aspect and being farmed full time, most likely he leaves, making the PvP a little niche for a group of elite players, no outsiders welcome.

Ranks are a need and matching players with same rank, is a must. Matching a Rank 1 vs a Rank 40 is something to be avoided, indeed.

I'd suggest to change tiers not to be based on level (the actual 30/40/50/50party) but on ranks, maybe something as 1-10(sync to lv.20)/11-20 (sync to lv30)/21-30 (sync to lv.40)/31-40), so players are on about same rank, and sync helps players try to taste pvp early first, and second, they will gradually familiarize with their growing skillset.

Then, about supporting wintrade because PvP in its actual state does not fit your expectations, does not makes any sense at all. Things I don't like, means I can freely cheat on? Pure nonsense.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Then, about supporting wintrade because PvP in its actual state does not fit your expectations, does not makes any sense at all. Things I don't like, means I can freely cheat on? Pure nonsense.

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(True Strike)

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Ranks are a need and matching players with same rank, is a must. Matching a Rank 1 vs a Rank 40 is something to be avoided, indeed.

I'd suggest to change tiers not to be based on level (the actual 30/40/50/50party) but on ranks, maybe something as 1-10(sync to lv.20)/11-20 (sync to lv30)/21-30 (sync to lv.40)/31-40), so players are on about same rank, and sync helps players try to taste pvp early first, and second, they will gradually familiarize with their growing skillset.

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did not you want to say rating/elo ?
rank is just a level nothing more, which in contrary to pve lvl you can gain by constantly dieing
now tell me who would win ? rank 40 guy who "lost" his way to 40 or a rank 40 guy who "won" his way ?

if you want to base matching on something, pvp rating/elo is the only thing for that