Harsher Penalties for Tanks who Immediately Leave Duty Finder

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Originally Posted by Jeykama

Actually, I do remember one time while I was healing that a DPS seemed to deliberately always hit a non#1 target thinking that my fairy would heal him anyway, kept doing it anyway after both tank and I told him to hit the mark order. Both got fed him and let him die a few times and he stopped, end of story. At any rate, I think it's better for you if you just let the trigger-happy dps die a few times (and laugh at them) and just throw away the list.

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I always find it more entertaining to get groups with lower geared or new players, or just really bad DPS/Healers. It's little things like this that can make a trivial dungeon seem sort of challenging and fun. Of course, this is assuming they are friendly and open minded.

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Originally Posted by Fumamyena

Here is a thought, level a tank class and do it too if you want. Another option is level a tank class and be one of the good tanks.

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theres a downside to being a tank, you make a mistake and everyone is free with the insults. People aren't nice when the Tank makes a mistake or Healer makes a mistake, even if its on accident.

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Originally Posted by LordSliver

theres a downside to being a tank, you make a mistake and everyone is free with the insults. People aren't nice when the Tank makes a mistake or Healer makes a mistake, even if its on accident.

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The entertaining part is the people that generally have the insults ready are usually the people that don't even have a tank class leveled at all. The sad, and somewhat surprising, part is that the most critical and least patient people I've seen were the tanks and healers.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

The entertaining part is the people that generally have the insults ready are usually the people that don't even have a tank class leveled at all. The sad, and somewhat surprising, part is that the most critical and least patient people I've seen were the tanks and healers.

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Hence why there is thread about Tanks dropping. I was going to work towards WHM but I am having so much fun with THM trying to get swiftcast that I think another dps seems more likely for me :D

There's a crap load of work involved in being a good tank, in many of the dungeon instances. F'r example, trying to do a fast run through Castrum. Especially with one tank.

"Go there. Pull the big guy. Run back. Go pull that other big guy. Run around and not die while the rest of the team blows stuff up. Run over to that platform, pull that mob. Run to the next platform, pull the other mob. Run around and not die while the rest of the team blows stuff up. Pull another big guy. Fire an anti-aircraft gun. Pull another big guy. Shoot down an airship. Pull the big guys back to the team. Run around and not die..."

Meanwhile the rest of the team:

Healer: Make sure the tank doesn't die. Much. Heal the slow MDD who aren't dodging. Maybe :)
RDD: Blow stuff up. Blow stuff up good. Turn another page in the fashion magazine. Blow stuff up more.
MDD: Stabbity stabbity stabbity. Dodge AoE. Punchy kickee punch. Get caught in big AoE for fun's sake.

(This is all in good humor, folks =oD )

I wouldn't want to see this implemented for tanks. I would like to see it implemented for ALL classes.
You know it is completely understandable that sometimes a dungeon pops, and you are in the middle of a leve or FATE, or otherwise busy, so you withdraw. It happens, no big deal, but then you get these people that; join, leave, join, leave, join, leave, etc... So you are stuck sitting in DF for 10-15 minutes longer, because the one guy it keeps putting you with is withdrawing worse than a room of people at a detox clinic.

I'd say after 2 or 3 times, it should slap a 30 second queue penalty on the person that prevents them from queuing, that is cumulative if they keep doing it. If they withdraw again, it's 60, then 90, 120, etc... Once they accept a duty, the penalty counter resets to 0. Or, if they don't queue up after so long, the penalty will eventually disappear.

It's unfair to blame it on tanks. Join a CT queue, you will see it is everyone, not just tanks.

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Originally Posted by LordSliver

theres a downside to being a tank, you make a mistake and everyone is free with the insults. People aren't nice when the Tank makes a mistake or Healer makes a mistake, even if its on accident.

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You are right people are not nice to healers either. As a WHM or a tank our performance is right there for the whole party to see. That opens the door if a tank loses aggro or a healer lets somebody die. A mistake or 2 should be acceptable to most people. I just love the healer rage that happens after one mistake. In coil is a perfect example, people see the tank die or what not and immediately blame the healers, it happens. Nobody cares about the circumstances that surround the death.

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Originally Posted by Jenilya

I'd say after 2 or 3 times, it should slap a 30 second queue penalty on the person that prevents them from queuing, that is cumulative if they keep doing it. If they withdraw again, it's 60, then 90, 120, etc... Once they accept a duty, the penalty counter resets to 0. Or, if they don't queue up after so long, the penalty will eventually disappear.

It's unfair to blame it on tanks. Join a CT queue, you will see it is everyone, not just tanks.

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We are talking about after the dungeon has already started and they have fully committed themselves to the dungeon by hitting the commence button when it popped up

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Originally Posted by Downdrop

I'd wager the only people who have a problem with this are tanks who are abandoning people. :) You don't find many healers or DPS immediately leaving duty finder dungeons that they've had to wait excessive amounts of time on, no matter how long or difficult others might perceive them to be. They won't want to abandon it without at least seeing if the group knows the encounters and handles themselves accordingly. The problem right now is tanks aren't even waiting that long... they're just simply leaving without even pulling one set of trash.

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No.
I'm a tank (and healer too but I use my tank for faster queues or usually no queues at all on Duty Roulette) and ALL I SEE are DPS leaving at Pharos.


First one is ALWAYS a DPS who leaves as soon as Pharos loads.
Then I ask the random ppl who are still there "should we start? pulling in 10 seconds!"
Healer leaves.
I don't pull the mobs.
The other DPS replies "hmm it seems we should leave".
I reply "Agreed. I have instant queues anyway lol"

I'm a ilevel 89 Warrior, so it's definitely not an issue with equipment.


So don't point your finger at tanks.
What I've seen so far are runaway DPSs.
ALL THE TIME.

I am a tank, and I completely understand where the OP is coming from. I have never left a duty after commencing, and I agree to a certain extent but not an immediate 1 hour penalty. What if, say, somebody had a problem/emergency in real life, which took around 20 minutes to resolve? I'm pretty sure their party members don't want to wait 20 minutes for the tank, but then the tank has to wait 40 minutes to commence again through no fault of their own. I know it's not much if it only happened once, but some people can only play for a few hours a day and 40 minutes is a large chunk of that.

I like the percentage idea, or the idea that the penalty time correlates with how many times someone has left.

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Originally Posted by mythicrose

This, right here. You value your time. So do the bailers. A quick glimpse at party (especially at the level 50 dungeons) is enough to see if the party is geared enough for a quick or smooth run...or not. You join PS and see just AF gear or spirit bonding gear on dps/healers/tanks...you know you're in for a rougher time than necessary. I'll bail in that circumstance if vote abandon doesn't pass regardless of my role.

Like you, my time is valuable to me.

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You know, I actually canceled my FFXIV account over all this crap. What's funny, is you actually believe that your time is more valuable then mine. What gives you the right to decide that?

Since I've been done, I've actually kept up with these forums (a little bit). And since then I've seen numerous topics, about this very same issue, be brought up.

What happens? The OP gets trashed by a bunch of fanboys.

What's even more funny is, I rolled a tank like so many of you bitches suggested. You know what I found about rolling a tank in FFXIV? Is you can't satisfy anybody.

You get high level geared assholes wanting a speed run from a level 15 tank in the starter dungeons. And when they don't get it, what do they do? Well hell, they think since they're level 50 and geared that they can just face pull an entire pack of mobs. Seriously. You kids need to grow up.

You cry about having no tanks, yet you have no patience to let people learn.

You cry about your time being wasted, yet have no consideration of other people's time.

This is all really an issue SE needs to address, because as an avid FF fan, I am cancelling my account yet again for a second time. Only this time I won't come back until I read in the patch notes something has been done to penalize dickheads in duty finder. :)

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Originally Posted by Downdrop

What's funny, is you actually believe that your time is more valuable then mine. What gives you the right to decide that?

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You should ask yourself the same question, because this entire rant reeks of nothing more than the attitude you're claiming to hate.

If someone leaves, deal with it. It sucks if it's the tank or healer, sure, but what can you do?

If someone is being an absolute asshat, you kick them. If it doesn't go through, you either suck it up (Because clearly two other people disagreed with you) or you leave (Because your time is valuable to you and you don't want to spend it with a douchenozzle)

In every situation where the Duty Finder doesn't work out for you, you honestly just have to get over it. You enjoy the game far more when you shut out the people who make it a chore for you and just play with the ones who you have a good time with.

Hey guys. I have a suggestion. Dont use duty finder? If youre doing roulette, you can either 1. stop doing roulette, 2. go with a full party (expert and high level only) or like everyone else said, level a tank. There are a lot of things the dev team should look at and honestly queuing for a dungeon and then leaving should be the least of players worries. I mean there are sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many other things you can do besides a dungeon, in fact we need sooooooooooo many more things besides dungeons cause dungeons are the thing i like least about this game personally. Thank the Eorzean gods that hunts will grant tomes. I cant stand doing dungeons all day. If i could i would avoid them completely.

fyi im' a tank. (This is why your wait is so long, im one of the few tanks and i dont like dungeons, and if i do actually do one, you can rest assured i'm not using duty finder hahahahahahaha.)

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Originally Posted by itschowda

It sounds like what the OP really wants is the leaver status on most MOBAs. I first saw it on HoN (Heroes of Newerth). I think it could be a good addition to the duty finder system. Something along the line: every time you withdraw from a duty within the first few minutes, it calculates versus how many you've completed. At a certain %, let's say 5% or higher, you cannot queue in until your % becomes lower. It might also make party finder more viable as people with a high leave rate have to go into duties with a preformed group until their leave % is lowered.

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Your comment is a while back, but i just wanted to say that this is a nice idea. SE should think about it. :)

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Originally Posted by Downdrop

Wah

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Your post makes you sound like the biggest dickhead. The fact that it's his time allows him the right to decide what his time is worth doing, as it is your right to decide what your time is worth. You call people fanboys for expressing their opinions on the topic when that term has absolutely nothing to do with people expressing their thoughts on this issue. You're calling people here bitches who suggest rolling a tank? That's classy, keep it up dick.

And the only thing that you're right about in your post is that you can't satisfy anybody, including you so instead of cancelling your sub and continuing to come back here, move on.

Alright, let's all take a step back, breathe in and out, and remember that we're playing a game - if you're not having fun, then you're doing it wrong.

I will agree with Downdrop at least that tanks do get saddled with rather unrealistic expectations at times. Like the scenario he mentioned. Or outgeared DPS going all out (sometimes on purpose) then blaming the tank for not keeping aggro. As a result, many just stop tanking, start being aggressive and bossy, or just generally adopt a nasty/negative attitude.

The answer isn't more punishment. Not in the least. The answer is to be the change you want to see. Treat tanks better, and they will treat you better. Tanks: respect your party and understand you're part of a TEAM, if even only for a few minutes. You can't do it alone, and neither can they. When everyone stops looking out for their own selfish interests (be it time, tomes, whatever) and works together, not only do you see these dungeons fly by, but you actually ENJOY IT.

For me, tanks have earned that luxury. They play a class upon whose shoulders the raid's fate rests, and yet numerous players are thankless. When you shittalk a tank with lower gear than you losing hate while he's trying to gear up/ learn his class better- you're a Class A jerk. They are the few, so they get priveledges. DPS has a higher number of unskilled players, due to having a higher number of players. I would NEVER want to give incentive to QUIT tanks. Any tank who wants to take a 30-minute penalty on his instant-queue dungeon if he doesn't like it has earned it- as has any dps, they just wait longer to get in. Also a 1-hr wait time on DPS is a load of crap. If you are waiting literally an hour, you're queueing for something that no one does, and pretty much every class will have a long wait.

Pharos just sucks. I queue in as a tank and dps/healer drop. Not to say they should increase the penalty though. 30 minutes is plenty of time.

I have seen fewer drop since they patched the bug that allowed you to drop without penalty before the dungeon was commenced.

Suggested Solution:
1) On Roulette Que Pop, it should state "Your dungeon is ready! You have rolled <insert dungeon here>! You can withdraw at this time to receive a X minute lock-out penalty before re-queing." So the player (whatever they may be) can jump ship before going in and the other players just wait a little longer for the next job to pop in. I would say the lockout being somewhere around 5 minutes for a first infraction and up to 30 minutes for multiple withdraws.
2) No more free-be abandons from DF roulette. With exception of a group wide abandon, should you jump ship after being in-dungeon and you get the full lockout penalty.

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Originally Posted by Downdrop

I'd wager the only people who have a problem with this are tanks who are abandoning people. :) You don't find many healers or DPS immediately leaving duty finder dungeons that they've had to wait excessive amounts of time on, no matter how long or difficult others might perceive them to be. They won't want to abandon it without at least seeing if the group knows the encounters and handles themselves accordingly. The problem right now is tanks aren't even waiting that long... they're just simply leaving without even pulling one set of trash.

Like I already said, if you're not already abandoning your duty finder groups then this won't effect you in any way shape or form.

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Im not a Tank, and I don't abandon duties, and i find this rediculous. 1) they will never single out certain roles for different penalties, it would be the same penalty all around for every role 2) More then Tanks do this, i see Healers and DPS do it all the time.

I'd like a slightly stronger penalty on early party drops, but I also think that we should have the option of excluding 2 or 3 dungeons from the duty roulette. I've never dropped from a duty that I wasn't running with friends, but every single time I get copperbell hard or pharos sirius, I groan (and it feels like I get those every time these days!). I realize that this means that those dungeons would have fewer people running them, but at this point I rarely use the hard mode roulette because those are the only two dungeons I've ended up with the last few times that I ran it, and half the time people drop from sirius immediately, or if we have a new person in the group for copperbell we struggle through the first boss, and tanks end up dropping, anyway.

Nah, Just give them a 15 day penalty and a huge icon that takes up half the screen that says "Toxic Player" above their head so that that everyone can see. On top of that, have the NPCs throw stones at them as they pass by them while shouting things at them for the duration of their penalty. I think that might just be enough punishment to only have one or two of these threads posted a week instead of five.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Suggested Solution:
1) On Roulette Que Pop, it should state "Your dungeon is ready! You have rolled <insert dungeon here>! You can withdraw at this time to receive a X minute lock-out penalty before re-queing." So the player (whatever they may be) can jump ship before going in and the other players just wait a little longer for the next job to pop in. I would say the lockout being somewhere around 5 minutes for a first infraction and up to 30 minutes for multiple withdraws.

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That completely invalidates the point of the roulette populating lower-level dungeons for newer players. It's already hard to queue for some of the less popular dungeons. That would make it impossible without a pre-made party.

you know if enough if you lazies leveled tanks and joined as tank, then they wouldn't have instant join times anymore, and would be more selective on what they leave.

-So get good so tank doesn't leave when he sees your white gear / or you are 5th on agro to an afk scholar.
-or Play as tank.

Solved.

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Originally Posted by Niamh_Rillemaugh

That completely invalidates the point of the roulette populating lower-level dungeons for newer players. It's already hard to queue for some of the less popular dungeons. That would make it impossible without a pre-made party.

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I'm not so sure. I might be wrong, but I thought the XP in dungeons scaled slightly for higher level players...so it's optimal to do higher level, but still acceptable to do lower since they're so fast/easy. If I am wrong, I would say roulette dungeons should give XP relative to the job's level and not the dungeon's difficulty. Alternatively, give increased gil to higher level players if need be to make all dungeons, regardless of which one pops, semi-equal in value for players to do.

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Originally Posted by Staris

you know if enough if you lazies leveled tanks and joined as tank, then they wouldn't have instant join times anymore, and would be more selective on what they leave.

-So get good so tank doesn't leave when he sees your white gear / or you are 5th on agro to an afk scholar.
-or Play as tank.

Solved.

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1) tank leave regardless party members. They just leave istant
2) sure, i get my copperbell hard dungeon for dps class as tank... right... Oh i forgot, we need to do coil with 7-8 tanks that's why everybody must do books only for tanks. Stop this bullshit
3) everyone is free to play what they like and they are not wrong in not play as tanks. And i say this as one that is levelling his tank
4) quit at start and invalidate 15-30 mins wait of other ppl just because they can it's wrong from every prospective you see it. This should be punished. That's why i record any start of dungeon to see tank's name and report it if he quit like that and everybody should check tank's name first thing in the dungeon

Luckly for me those last couple weeks this did not happend, but the weeks before i had 3 consecutive DR screwed up by lazy tanks

All I know is that when a Tank does quit, I never see their name by the time it happens. The last time something like this happened, I was tanking in Low Level Roulette, got Tam Tara. Of course I think to myself "well this sucks but whatever I'm motivated to clear it", then two seconds later the healer instant quits. I then say in my head again "well looks like I don't have to do this", I bid farewell to the DPS and say good luck getting a party, and leave. I go to re-quene and see that I have a 30 minute penalty as well, for being the SECOND person to quit after someone else already did, and I got a penalty as well for no damn reason. Pissed me off that I now had to wait because another healer apparently joined the very second that I left the dungeon or something.


I'd like it if the penalty system didn't screw other people over for no reason as well, then again, for all I know, SE could have made it so that if a Tank or healer quits without getting booted or abandoning, they get a penalty regardless. Seems almost likely.

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Originally Posted by Huntington

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If a healer entered few seconds later you DID screw the DR of at least other 2 ppl that waited for it way longher then you so you DID deserved the penality

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Originally Posted by Athol

No I prefer harsher penalties for players that refuse to level tanking and healing classes. They need to add a lazy debuff *hairflip*

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That poor Arcanist is going to have it pretty rough until 30.

felt pretty bad today was running Sunken City as a Tank and got to last section when I lost connection. Playing wired connection and just dropped. Was the first time running this properly and felt terrible for the rest of the party as we were going quite well I thought. Left them without a tank:( How easy is it though for another Tank to drop into the game though?

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Originally Posted by asylum1977

felt pretty bad today was running Sunken City as a Tank and got to last section when I lost connection. Playing wired connection and just dropped. Was the first time running this properly and felt terrible for the rest of the party as we were going quite well I thought. Left them without a tank:( How easy is it though for another Tank to drop into the game though?

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Trust my when I say anyone will take that queue. All one of them have to do is type "/fc need tank for lost city in progress 2/3" and they'll have a have a dozen people trying to queue in.

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Originally Posted by PetiteMalFleur

Trust my when I say anyone will take that queue. All one of them have to do is type "/fc need tank for lost city in progress 2/3" and they'll have a have a dozen people trying to queue in.

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Note he said Sunken, as in Sunken Temple of Qarn, not Lost City.

I have never bailed from any dungeon. I don't rage quit, as that screws the whole party. But I've had my fair share of healers and DPS rage quit over any slight. Got Dzmael for my low level, and our healer said "BRB" and quit. Sickens me how quickly people rage quit too. One wipe, and everyone wants to bail. Like they've never died before or something.

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Originally Posted by moudoka

I have never bailed from any dungeon. I don't rage quit, as that screws the whole party. But I've had my fair share of healers and DPS rage quit over any slight. Got Dzmael for my low level, and our healer said "BRB" and quit. Sickens me how quickly people rage quit too. One wipe, and everyone wants to bail. Like they've never died before or something.

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Yep, people in this game can't tolerate failure for some reason. Seeing stuff in party finder like "1 fail = kick and blacklist" is ridiculous. I joined a Hauke Manor HM 0/3 in progress tonight on my warrior. 2 BLM for DPS, 1 in pretty much AF1 and there in a mix a ilvl60 and 70 gear. I had my doubts that we'd have enough DPS to do it, but I wasn't going to rage quit. A couple wipes at each boss, but we beat it.

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Originally Posted by Brill_

Yep, people in this game can't tolerate failure for some reason. Seeing stuff in party finder like "1 fail = kick and blacklist" is ridiculous. I joined a Hauke Manor HM 0/3 in progress tonight on my warrior. 2 BLM for DPS, 1 in pretty much AF1 and there in a mix a ilvl60 and 70 gear. I had my doubts that we'd have enough DPS to do it, but I wasn't going to rage quit. A couple wipes at each boss, but we beat it.

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While it's true that someone is really a db not everyone is like that tanks to god =o

But while ppl should not be quickleave on DF since it's where new ppl get to learn i think that in PF you have the right to put the standards for your party and ppl who don't meet that standard should stop enter anyway and either put up a PF on their terms or go DF. Specially those fights where the fail of someone means likely whipe. It's a dog biting his tail. More times someone enter your PF for the kill and die miserably more you feel like being rude on PF to keep them away. More rude are PF notes, less likely they work the way intended and make someone want to break that

I'm now a fresh lv50 tank with AF plus good weapon/accessory(what i had, STR ones mostly =/) with low HP that need to build equip so i can't do big pulls. I don't go messing with PF, i just DF but i see how ppl ragequits only cuz he have to run the dungeon the normal way. Luckly usually it's a DPS so it's like istant replace

Actually, I am wondering about an idea if you can do something like if anyone who joins a roulette they can get extra myth from being rewarded with a commendation an extra 10 or 15 myth(this can vary of course) from each person in the roulette who gives you a commendation.

If you leave early or within a certain time frame you must receive a commendation from another dungeon to be eligible again for myth by commendation, this can be applied to everyone. Myth by commendation is a optional reward to the already existing dungeon reward.

Don't keep people away from queue if anything get them back in queue and get them to redeem themselves. I don't know of any tank that would wanna leave and have to run ANOTHER dungeon to get his goodie status again. Someone leaves or is kicked out for bad behavior make them run it again to make up for it.

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Originally Posted by Athol

No I prefer harsher penalties for players that refuse to level tanking and healing classes. They need to add a lazy debuff *hairflip*

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Do I really need to level a certain class I've played non-stop in previous MMOs because that class still can't get over the swollen head these stupid Dungeon Finder systems give them? Do I really need to go back to a class simply to be a good ambassador among all the mewling children who pick it?

This behavior doesn't even save time most of the time. It's just nothing more than entitled crap. Tanks act this way because they can get away with it. The idea that your average Duty Finder All-Star tank is going to spend his time instead doing high powered day trading because of increased penalties is a fantasy. He'll be there on slightly better behavior because it'll probably be the first time he's been held responsible for something his entire MMO career.

When it burns an honest tank that'll be unfortunate but much more than that it will curb a lot of ridiculous behavior out of people.

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Originally Posted by Brill_

Yep, people in this game can't tolerate failure for some reason. Seeing stuff in party finder like "1 fail = kick and blacklist" is ridiculous. I joined a Hauke Manor HM 0/3 in progress tonight on my warrior. 2 BLM for DPS, 1 in pretty much AF1 and there in a mix a ilvl60 and 70 gear. I had my doubts that we'd have enough DPS to do it, but I wasn't going to rage quit. A couple wipes at each boss, but we beat it.

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This is why I like running new dungeons on patch day. Nobody quits because we are actually learning the dungeon instead of watching video's and reading guides. Sure it took 3 tries on one boss in Tam-Tara HM but we actually talked about how to beat it.

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Originally Posted by LetBloodline

If a healer entered few seconds later you DID screw the DR of at least other 2 ppl that waited for it way longher then you so you DID deserved the penality

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I don't see how I can ever predict or understand when a less played class is going to randomly join. I waited 30 seconds after the healer left and had things to do, I'm not obliged to wait 20 minutes so some low level people can finish the dungeon. I wasn't going to quit to start off, and I said farewell and wished them luck before I left and still got a penalty. I was not the first person to leave, and should not have been penalized for making someone wait ten more minutes in the next search because the DPS quene isn't all that bad anymore.

As a tank, I used to abandon The Lost City of Amdapor, Pharos Sirius... but now no more, now I am a good guy lol;;
reason I used to abandon, was that, I was traumatized of going to the end and fail the dungeon by time limit! or taking so long to beat too.
its easy to find bad groups at DF, and I would rather had 30 min penalty then try it and waste my time.

Now imagine every tank doing this, and getting this super penality you all are talking about, that means less tanks queueing for DF, which means even more time queue for other classes!:o!!!
So you want a better punishment on tanks, but you "OP" and supporters, are not looking at the big picture in this catastrophic scenario. Just saying.