"In-Progress" queue fishing has to stop

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Originally Posted by Dorin

If I queue for a dungeon "IN PROGRESS", why the rat should I deal with a dungeon "STARTING NOW, NOT IN PROGRESS"?

Don't blame the players if the system is flawed and doesn't work properly.

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Just blame the players for abusing the system that was designed to allow players open for entering a in progress dungeon to help out a party that lost a member for whatever reason, not to fish for your own personal benefit.

I'm still confused as to how Join a party in progress also = new group.

I think the basic fix and function to the issue is right there.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Just blame the players for abusing the system that was designed to allow players open for entering a in progress dungeon to help out a party that lost a member for whatever reason, not to fish for your own personal benefit.

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Marked the only true part. Everything else is on your mind.
Somehow people start creating ideals and rules in their minds and wants to force everyone else to follow it.

this is a cause and effect situation. the effect is people fishing which is annoying, yes. but the cause is CT itself. the raid came out at a time that is less than optimal. personally, my main is almost full 90 while my back-up (and only other job) uses CT for gear. after finding out which piece drops by which boss, i then cater my run towards that particular goal. i am a fisher but not for a 2/4 or 3/4. the only items i need are from the 1st two bosses and myth tomes are easier to get then candy. moral of the story, not everyone who fishes is looking to swoop in on the last guy. sadly, i only see it getting worse in the future which is why after 2 more weeks or 1 week and 1 lucky coil, i will be able to avoid that entire mess until 2.3!

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

Players can have a multitude of reasons for exclusively joining in-progress, including desiring CT loot near the end of that dungeon. Again, the more appropriate solution in this instance is to delay all loot until the very end; Acheron should reward 4 pieces, instead of having each mini-boss reward 1.

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i don't see how that would limit Fishers in any way, that would actually seem to GREATLY ENCOURAGE it unless there was a lotting restriction on join in progress such as Greed Lot only or something, why should a last minute entry into a dungeon get the same lotting access as those who did all of the legwork to get to Achgeron

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Originally Posted by Dorin

If I queue for a dungeon "IN PROGRESS", why the rat should I deal with a dungeon "STARTING NOW, NOT IN PROGRESS"?

Don't blame the players if the system is flawed and doesn't work properly.

If a player checks the "IN PROGRESS" square, put them ONLY in dungeons in progress, or in none at all.

So, different queues. Problem solved.

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It's not designed for you to only get an in-progress dungeon. It's designed to ALLOW in-progress instance if they come up before a new lease does. Square does not (nor should they) want you to be able to selectively queue for dungeons that are half completed. Do you have any idea what that would do to queue times for CT?

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Originally Posted by synaesthetic

It's not designed for you to only get an in-progress dungeon. It's designed to ALLOW in-progress instance if they come up before a new lease does. Square does not (nor should they) want you to be able to selectively queue for dungeons that are half completed. Do you have any idea what that would do to queue times for CT?

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before anyone gets more warped ideas

What they really want you to do with the in-progress option (9:00-11:00)

all they have to do is put in a 30 or 60 second cooldown on missed or ignored queue pops and it would fix the entire problem.
for people playing normally and something comes up that causes them to have to miss a queue it would be completely negligible

for people that queue 50 times in 5 minutes looking for an almost finished dungeon it would turn that 5 minutes into 25/50 minutes completely destroying the reason they're doing it to begin with

Why do people want to finish dungeons faster by getting last boss ?

Because the game isn't fun and they only want the myth tomes for gear ?

Solution : Make game more fun .

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Originally Posted by Grailer

Why do people want to finish dungeons faster by getting last boss ?

Because the game isn't fun and they only want the myth tomes for gear ?

Solution : Make game more fun .

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How do you make necessary grind/farming fun?

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Originally Posted by Doo

How do you make necessary grind/farming fun?

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Put things for tanks to tank.

I mean, the only time I get to tank in CT is on Thanatos adds, everything else is solo tankable. And won't even get started on Behemoth... clicking the towers... lol.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...86#post1784586

Like it, get it asked. Stick it in the OP too.

Fragmenting the queue is bad for the overall health of the game. Supporting players that want to skip content is also the last thing that should ever be done in an MMO.

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

Put things for tanks to tank.

I mean, the only time I get to tank in CT is on Thanatos adds, everything else is solo tankable. And won't even get started on Behemoth... clicking the towers... lol.

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I don't think tanks are the only roles that find CT boring to farm and knowing S.E if tanking was more complicated it would be in the form of something like TANK SWAPS.

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Originally Posted by juniglee

It's really saddening to see that we can't simply be decent human beings, play the game, think about others. No, no reward and everyone else can die in a gutter. Apparently we need incentives to help people.

Duty Roulette was invented as a means for newbie to get help running dungeons, since nobody does those dungeons and they need it for story dungeons. No reward = let the newbies rot in a corner. This is bad enough in Main Scenario, where people go in, heckle others to skip cutscenes, simply because they want their reward.

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Your example is perfect. If the player community was really so willing to help other players without being encouraged by an incentive, then we wouldn't have needed the duty roulette in the first place. We'd see experienced players clicking on each of the lower level dungeons manually and jumping in to the queue without the duty roulette bonus.

Obviously, that didn't happen. And it wouldn't happen, because people simply aren't altruistic.

Do I wish that we didn't need incentives for people to be nice to each other? Of course.

Do I think selfishness will disappear if we just sit down and wish it away? Not a chance.

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Originally Posted by juniglee

Yes, throw the newbies under the bus. Throw the unfortunate players who decided that their life calling was to play DPS under the bus.

So apparently, you have the freedom of action to fish for queues, but other people don't have the freedom of action to play a class they want? Contradictory much?

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I don't think you're understanding my post at all.

There is no such thing as a "life calling" to play DPS. Players weren't born with an orientation towards playing the DPS roles. Players make a conscious decision to play something that they know (or soon realize while leveling up) is an over-popular and undesired role for party content (i.e. a vast majority of this game.

I never said you do not have the "freedom of action" to play DPS. Of course you can.

I only object to the idea that the problems shared by DPS players (long queues and being victims of fishers) is the net result of their own choice to play DPS, and no other reason. The nature of their collective existence is what produces these so-called "problems" they encounter.

Players in these roles do not have the right to have their complaints addressed when the problem is created by them and can only be solved by themselves.

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Originally Posted by juniglee

It is the optimal, best-case-scenario for ONE in 4/8/24 other players. Unless you can show it's beneficial to all party members, which it is clearly not, otherwise such threads wouldn't exist - instead, you'd see more threads praising the fishers. Keep in mind that there's a larger number of fresh queues, compared to in-progress.

DPS queues are such because of the bigger number of players playing DPS compared to tank or healer, but ultimately tanks fishing for queues, do not solve this problem, they make it worse. It is bad enough as is, separate queues is a step backwards.

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Having players join in-progress parties that are the furthest progressed in a dungeon is the best-case solution. It benefits one player greatly because they can skip the previous content, and the rest of the alliance because they very likely need to fill out their party. I'm sure you've been in a situation where you're standing around waiting to begin at the entrance of Behemoth, Acheron, etc waiting for the last tank or healer to join in. How is it possibly not beneficial to everyone to prioritize this 2/4 or 3/4 progress alliance to the top of the queue, and for fishers to actively seek those alliances?

Fishers are absolutely in the right here, because they are needed the most by parties who are hung up waiting to fill up their alliance.

There is no problem in the system. The only "problem" is the complaining by players who are frustrated by clicking on commence duty and having others withdraw. Again, read my previous post to see how this is a problem generated by the imbalance of roles and the active choice of individuals to play undesired roles.

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Originally Posted by Thebob89

This is just a suggestion, but in the case of fishers jumping in just to lay hands on the end game loot, why not just cripple the rewards for completion. That would eliminate the folks just jumping in for the swag. The only drag up would be the fact that a crippled group would be less likely for someone to jump in.

There is no good solution to the issues that I can see. But I am new to the who's mmo deal, so there isn't much stock in my opinion.

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even though you say you are new to mmo's this is the best suggestion i've seen in this entire thread. just cripple the rewards the fisher get depending on how far into the dungeon you are. if you queue into a party that's on the second boss and you are able to engage and help defeat the second and third boss you only get 2/3 of the normal rewards. say with wp you get 30 myth for beating all 3, but if you join and fight pudding and king you'd get 20 tomes on completion. i just don't think the idea of giving the full reward for joining on the final boss of an entire dungeon leads to a cohesive community.

your idea seems to be the most efficient i've seen to combat the current issue.

I did not read all of the replies, so if someone already said this please disregard, but I would suggest that instead of doing this... just seperate the queues so people who want to join in-progress ONLY get prompted when an instance in-progress pops, so they don't have to keep declining the ones that are just starting.

Problem solved, and everyone gets what they want.

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

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You know what? Those groups will still get filled up with or without you being able to see if its in progress and without a dedicated queue. If you don't like it stick to Party Finder or learn to cooperate with your fellow players that are just so insufferable you can't bear being in a full run with. The game isn't going to bend over for you because you want a shortcut.

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Originally Posted by Tiraelina

You know what? Those groups will still get filled up with or without you being able to see if its in progress and without a dedicated queue. If you don't like it stick to Party Finder or learn to cooperate with your fellow players that are just so insufferable you can't bear being in a full run with. The game isn't going to bend over for you because you want a shortcut.

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Exactly lol. Queue fishers acting like they are doing some noble deed when all they are trying to do is cheat the system. Make it blind queue so it would be a luck factor whether you get a chance at faster farming or not while helping others in the process.

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Originally Posted by Tiraelina

You know what? Those groups will still get filled up with or without you being able to see if its in progress and without a dedicated queue. If you don't like it stick to Party Finder or learn to cooperate with your fellow players that are just so insufferable you can't bear being in a full run with. The game isn't going to bend over for you because you want a shortcut.

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I don't understand why you would not only want to take away shortcuts for players who are playing desired roles, but asking players who are selfish to abandon the duty finder.

If we are so incensed about the problem of queue fishing and long queues in general, why would we want to marginalize players who are in it for the loot (i.e. the vast majority of players)? Are we really so convinced, despite the overwhelming evidence not only in this game but other MMOs, that players are really willing to help out just for the sake of helping out?

I can't tell if you're incredibly short-sighted or just completely ignorant of the reality: either you need to cater ("bend over") for players in desired roles, or greatly discourage people from imbalancing the role make-up (punishing DPS).

We can't have our cake (have everyone play DPS) and eat it too (expect everything to work smoothly for DPS and punish non-DPS for expecting incentives).

This is ultimately what it boils down to. Stop blaming queue fishers for trying to reap a benefit they deserve. If you want queue fishing to stop, either stop playing DPS or start playing tanks and healers.

if the window pops up then you withdraw should be 5 min wait to queue again.

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Originally Posted by indira

if the window pops up then you withdraw should be 5 min wait to queue again.

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No. This is completely unnecessary. There is an extremely simple solution that I keep posting and people keep ignoring.

We don't need lockouts, we don't need to hide progress, or anything else.

All we need is one simple thing: Have the "Join in Progress" button actually do what it says 100% of the time. People who check this box should simply not be matched with new parties. How hard could that be? They get to join in progress like they want, people who lost members in a dungeon still get replacements, and new parties do not get bothered or annoyed by queue withdrawals.

Everybody wins this way. I don't know why people aren't seeing it.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

No. This is completely unnecessary. There is an extremely simple solution that I keep posting and people keep ignoring.

We don't need lockouts, we don't need to hide progress, or anything else.

All we need is one simple thing: Have the "Join in Progress" button actually do what it says 100% of the time. People who check this box should simply not be matched with new parties. How hard could that be? They get to join in progress like they want, people who lost members in a dungeon still get replacements, and new parties do not get bothered or annoyed by queue withdrawals.

Everybody wins this way. I don't know why people aren't seeing it.

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This would be the best way to go about it. Separate the queues completely. Win/Win for everyone.

But I warn you; this idea is logical and is, within reason, relatively easy to be able to account for and code. Tread lightly as Square detests both of these things seemingly.

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Originally Posted by cotti

And what about your statement is so special that it deserves a whole thread, instead of posting in any other that deals with the same issue?

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lol @ Mr. Wannabe forum Police.

2 queues is the only fair solution that also doesn't punish anyone which is always a good way to go.

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

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I've been playing a tank since I started these games. You are not a special snowflake. You don't deserve anything. This has nothing to do with DPS queues. Posts like yours are just reinforcing the need to shut down this behaviour.

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Originally Posted by Tiraelina

I've been playing a tank since I started these games. You are not a special snowflake. You don't deserve anything. This has nothing to do with DPS queues. Posts like yours are just reinforcing the need to shut down this behaviour.

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This has everything to do with DPS queues. Granted, balancing role population would not eliminate in-progress fishing. However, if tanks (and to a lesser extent, healers) did not get instant queues, then they would not fish as often or agressively. And the reason that fishers get instant queues is because of the role imbalance due primarily to a preponderance of DPS players.

Players who play desired roles such as tanks and healers can and should be encouraged with incentives.

I never said I was a "special snowflake" and deserved anything. The personal attacks are not appreciated. Just because I'm defending others doesn't mean I'm inviting character attacks. Let's debate the issue and not each other's motivations.

Your personal anecdote is certainly valid. However, I contend that more people would play tanks (and still be cooperative, nice players) if we gave them more incentives. Although you don't need more incentives to continue playing a tank, other players do.

1) Yes too much players in mmos play dds roles.

2) No it does not mean the incentive should be able to skip parts of dungeons whenever they want.

Abusing a bad system. DCUO has this issue as well so they just decided to buff every party member with a defense buff when no tanks were present. Con- made tank feel pretty useless at times.

I've read this entire thread. My gut instinct was that obscuring the dungeon progress from players was the best solution because I don't like the idea of people being rewarded for being lazy (the fishers).

Now I've had time to read both sides, I agree that separating the queues is the best solution.

Say 100 lazy people queue for in progress, that's 100 people that need to leave a dungeon in progress before all of them get a spot. This is going to be way longer than completing a dungeon from start to finish.

Eventually there will reach an equilibrium between waiting specifically for a dungeon in progress and finishing a dungeon from start to finish. Certain people will prefer one or the other.

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

This has everything to do with DPS queues. Granted, balancing role population would not eliminate in-progress fishing. However, if tanks (and to a lesser extent, healers) did not get instant queues, then they would not fish as often or agressively. And the reason that fishers get instant queues is because of the role imbalance due primarily to a preponderance of DPS players.

Players who play desired roles such as tanks and healers can and should be encouraged with incentives.

I never said I was a "special snowflake" and deserved anything. The personal attacks are not appreciated. Just because I'm defending others doesn't mean I'm inviting character attacks. Let's debate the issue and not each other's motivations.

Your personal anecdote is certainly valid. However, I contend that more people would play tanks (and still be cooperative, nice players) if we gave them more incentives. Although you don't need more incentives to continue playing a tank, other players do.

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Here an actual personal attack (from you).

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

I can't tell if you're incredibly short-sighted or just completely ignorant of the reality

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Here's the special snowflake.

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

need to cater ("bend over") for players in desired roles

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Here's the idea you deserve anything for a role.

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

reap a benefit they deserve

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You know what would happen if they hid in progress dungeons? Life would go on, just like it already is in other games. Games that have the same role imbalances. Games that didn't need separated queues to fix a problem that only exists because you can see its in progress.

There's little if any discussion coming from you. Just inflated self worth over a role that doesn't want a problem fixed because:

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

It's risky enough to use the duty finder and landing in a bad alliance that has at least progressed halfway or more; it's even worse to risk the chance of joining a bad alliance that has to start from the beginning.

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Welcome to online games, enjoy your stay!

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Originally Posted by Skotie

Lets assume they change it to what you propose. What is there to stop upset tanks from joining then preforming horribly on purpose to get booted so they can just rejoin another queue anyways? Are we also going to give those booted a cooldown timer? How do we know it was there fault and they weren't just having an off day?

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Are you saying you would do this?

Let them fish for a party in progress it is their choice. Either way you will have to wait regardless. If they took out the join in progress those players will more than likely just form a pre made and guess what that's less players join your solo or duo or trio Q. Personally when I do something its always in a pre-made so I dont have to worry about other player's that dont wanna perform or be carried thru a run.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

No. This is completely unnecessary. There is an extremely simple solution that I keep posting and people keep ignoring.

We don't need lockouts, we don't need to hide progress, or anything else.

All we need is one simple thing: Have the "Join in Progress" button actually do what it says 100% of the time. People who check this box should simply not be matched with new parties. How hard could that be? They get to join in progress like they want, people who lost members in a dungeon still get replacements, and new parties do not get bothered or annoyed by queue withdrawals.

Everybody wins this way. I don't know why people aren't seeing it.

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I agree with you completely and I dont normally but this is the best option but than again if they do that we will be here again cause they will complain they cant get into a dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

All we need is one simple thing: Have the "Join in Progress" button actually do what it says 100% of the time. People who check this box should simply not be matched with new parties. How hard could that be? They get to join in progress like they want, people who lost members in a dungeon still get replacements, and new parties do not get bothered or annoyed by queue withdrawals.

Everybody wins this way. I don't know why people aren't seeing it.

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Blind queues are better. This allows people to be greedy lazy dicks. The in progress feature was never meant so you can snipe the 50 mythology tomes in five minutes.

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Originally Posted by Maxthunder

Let them fish for a party in progress it is their choice. Either way you will have to wait regardless. If they took out the join in progress those players will more than likely just form a pre made and guess what that's less players join your solo or duo or trio Q. Personally when I do something its always in a pre-made so I dont have to worry about other player's that dont wanna perform or be carried thru a run.

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That's fine, have them stop joining. At least I don't have to switch to my main class and wait as the stupid window pops up 200 times forcing me to wait it out and not let me continue on with what I was doing before. I would RATHER WAIT longer and keep on doing what I was before.

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Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Blind queues are better. This allows people to be greedy lazy dicks. The in progress feature was never meant so you can snipe the 50 mythology tomes in five minutes.

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People are mostly greedy lazy dicks. All the people complaining in this thread about queue fishers just want to finish the dungeons faster and get their rewards more easily. That makes them greedy lazy dicks, too.

There shouldn't be any punishment for being greedy or lazy.

Ok, so I had a wonderful CT queuing experience this morning. My PLD is fully geared up, but my BRD is in only DL, so I queued him up this morning for CT. I only had 2hrs to play, but hoped it would be enough. It took 30 mins for the queue to pop (was leveling my DRG while waiting). Fair enough. Down to 1.5 hrs. Then for the next 30 minutes it was an endless tank fishing operation. Twice, it sent the party/alliance construction process back to zero, to start all over again. At the 1hr mark I realized I no longer had enough time to ensure completion, which would have been unfair to my party even if it popped for real right away, so I withdrew from DF.

So for all those who fish, please consider what you are doing to the playing time of those who are facing time limitations and would like to run the raid as intended.

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Originally Posted by Grailer

Im a tank , I used to fish but its too hard now because there are too many fishers out there fishing for fish . I can see the benefit of fishing CT if you need item from last boss .

But if I get group in progress when I don't want one Guess what lad , I will quit that group and take the 30 min debuff and alt tab and go play hearth stone , or muck around on kerbin space program or play some GTA5 etc , maybe I will watch some youtube :)

Fact is I could spend all day joining groups and quiting because I really only need to do 1 roulette a day to cap my myth.

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That is your problem and decision. The fact is, you'll be punished with 30 minutes of not being able to register again. And that will not only affect you. It will also spare the other 7 people you screwed over from having to endure another of your drops for the next 30 minutes.

I'm a little curious why people think separating 'in progress' from 'new start' dungeon would affect anyone other than 'in progress' fishers. They insist it's because people will join 'in progress' dungeons alone, and then no one will que for a fresh dungeon.


But that's not the way that would work at all. Simply put, by making it so they would only que in progress, you would effectively remove people who are already negatively affecting the que. The people who are que fishing aren't genuinely part of the que - they aren't there to help, they are simply seeking to serve themselves and are NOT making que times better.

The best plans are posted throughout this thread.

Hide the que progress
Disadvantage: Tanks will still happily join -> Quit and eat a 30 minute debuff when it's not at 2nd / 3rd boss. There's enough to do in this game as-is. This also has the issue of the fact that if you get the que fisher and he just leaves, then you are now stranded at the very start of the dungeon without a tank. Most tanks at that point that joined in progress will continue to leave, thus you may very well have wasted your entire que for nothing.

Separate the que's
There's really no disadvantage to this that I can see. If you say it's because 'people will no longer que for a fresh dungeon', I think you're wrong. I think people will happily que a new dungeon, and will be happy they don't have to deal with fishers withdrawing 50 times anymore.

Moar buttons!
Why not make more buttons? Why not make it so that you get two buttons button - 'Join in Progress Only' and 'New Dungeon or Join In Progress' that determines which que you get put into? That way, Fishers don't have to fish, and fresh starters can start fresh, and those caught in between will not be affected.

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Originally Posted by ProxyTooMuch

There shouldn't be any punishment for being greedy or lazy.

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It's not just a simple matter of being greedy or lazy; the current system allows certain players (tanks) to actively disrupt, bother, and even harm other players, and they can do this anonymously and indefinitely. At least two good suggestions have been made here as to how to fix this while hurting nobody, and other methods would also work. There's absolutely no reason to leave the system in its current form unless you just like hurting the dps players. I mean, there are fixes that would make it better for the "fishers", too. I'd rather a purely mechanical fix than a system that outright punishes people, but if that's what it takes, then that's what it takes.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

No. This is completely unnecessary. There is an extremely simple solution that I keep posting and people keep ignoring.

We don't need lockouts, we don't need to hide progress, or anything else.

All we need is one simple thing: Have the "Join in Progress" button actually do what it says 100% of the time. People who check this box should simply not be matched with new parties. How hard could that be? They get to join in progress like they want, people who lost members in a dungeon still get replacements, and new parties do not get bothered or annoyed by queue withdrawals.

Everybody wins this way. I don't know why people aren't seeing it.

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And screw over anyone who plays something like DD who use it to have a small chance of finding a dungeon faster?

Or screw over the people who need a replacement, but no one uses the Join in Progress button because separating the queue fucks their queue time?