Eorzea feels like a world with no teeth.

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Originally Posted by ToraFomalhaut

Eorzea feels like a world with no teeth.

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http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__...hat_I_mean.jpg

(I'm sorry I couldn't resist)

MAKE IT HAPPEN YOSHIDA

I was expecting strongholds like davoi, castle oztroja, or even ghelsba outpost . . . .

People said Tanaka sucked. I think given the 2years Yoshida had, 1.0 would have been a much better fantasy game.

2.0 isn't even a fantasy RPG. It's an action thriller.

I miss the danger from 1.0... well, from the first few days of 1.0 that is.

I don't miss that 90% of the world was always devoid of players after everyone got their exploration achievements, due to 1.0's open world mobs being even higher leveled than 2.0's bosses. With the exception of Moogle farming, players were never given a reason to go near those mobs, and yet they covered the majority of the world. The majority of the world being dangerous, purely for the sake of being dangerous, only resulted in an empty world. This made for a waste of world development time, a waste of data being tracked at the data centers, a waste of storage space on players' hard drives...

(Elaborating on the problem with 1.0 mobs in the quote box below, but that's in the past. Skip to after the break for the more relevant problems that need to be considered when examining 2.0 today.)

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What's more is that the high level mobs that covered the majority of the world in 1.0 weren't just dangerous. They were doom incarnate. The danger that they presented was overkill. They were so ridiculously imbalanced that literally the only reliable way to run past most of them was to mount up as a relatively geared PLD just after blowing all of your defensive cooldowns, making a mad sprint past a small pack of mobs, and then going AFK while waiting for your cooldowns to come back up before repeating. Obviously most players didn't have the patience for this, especially if they died after an hour or two of inching forward in this tedious manner, as was most often the case. Even if you threw an alliance together, managed to pull single mobs away from one these areas, and proceeded to kill them, they only dropped the same old junk that you could farm by yourself at level 12. These mobs weren't put there to be a fun obstacle for players to overcome. They were put there with the sole intention of discouraging players and preventing people from venturing any further. You weren't SUPPOSED to be where they were, plain and simple, and if you insisted on it then you were supposed to feel so foolish afterward that you'd spread the word and never explore again.

This being the case, there could have only been one good reason for these obscenely powerful open-world mobs being everywhere, and that would have been to keep people from going to the areas that weren't finished being developed yet -- Leviathan's Lair, Bahamut's Lair, etc. You'd find places like this everywhere, and it was the same thing every time: if you had enough patience to sneak past mobs for a few hours, then your exploration through the sea of copy/pasta would FINALLY bring you to the entrance to something really cool looking, where you'd only to be met by a disappointing NPC saying, "Sorry, this area's off limits right now. Please turn back around." Whatever you'd find in the world, it was always an unfinished buzzkill, the product of a game released before it was ready. The only reason that makes sense for the devs making the world so impossible to navigate was that they didn't want players to discover that they purchased an unfinished product.

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I'm sure that a sweet spot could have been found in 2.0 by lowering the 1.0 mobs' levels to still keep them deadly, but not OHKO deadly at max level, while at the same time making them follow for longer than they do now...

...but even then, the only time anyone goes out into the world alone these days is for gathering, and everyone already complains about the tedium of it. I can't imagine gathering being made more fun by constant death. Trust me -- I used to mine Ifrit's Cauldron in XI for my main income. I did it because on a good day it was insanely profitable, but it was only profitable because nobody else in their right mind wanted to bang their head into such a brick wall of death all day. Let's not even talk about the bad days -- the days when my iron will would only leave me a couple levels lower with nothing to show for it but a handful broken pickaxes and a seething hatred for bombs. Overall it was not what I would describe as a fun way to spend time in a game.

Even traveling in groups today, all that people go into the world for is FATE parties, which people also complain about the tedium of. Throwing in random deaths between each FATE wouldn't make people happier.

Maybe some NMs would be fun to spice things up, but even so, gone are the days of torturous camping, not to mention the loss of the single-party claiming system that actually made the resulting fights a challenge. The focus is now on fun for all with party-free tagging and server-wide cooperation in the open world, with single-party challenges being tucked away in isolated instances -- because less griefing and more players getting loots means more happy players keeping their subs. In other words, any NMs that we see today will just be developed to be loot pinatas and present some aesthetic variety. Gone are the days of even NMs being threatening.

Let's not forget that permanent mounts trivialize the threats of any travel that you'll ever do anyway. :(

I can get sentimental with the best of y'all, and enjoy reminiscing about the good old days. These things made for some fun experiences. Unfortunately they were short-lived experiences that had a limited shelf life from the moment they were implemented (or in the case of threatening NMs, benefited only a minority of players while alienating the majority who lost out on claims). Developers have learned that those types of short-lived experiences are a waste of resources -- hence the poor quality of seasonal events these days. As a result, I can't imagine these requested features ever coming back. :/

Besides... before tackling this topic, we should be asking for some actual REASONS to travel on foot. This is like arguing about crafting leveling up too quickly, instead of worrying about how pointless crafting has become in the first place. Let's focus on first things first. Once the day comes when I actually find myself surrounded by mobs more often than players, THEN let's talk about how to fix mounts so they don't trivialize the world, how to make mobs threatening (and for more than just the sake of being threatening), and how to do all of this without ruining gathering and FATE grinding. Until then, can we work toward getting an actual reason to leave the market wards and Wineport?

I started this game in 2.0, but from video footage of 1.0 and years of playing open world MMOs, i really have no love for requests of scale with no substance. Or content with no real reason for adding it. Or random enemy camps littered around the world that can kill you for no good reason.

Randomly falling into a pit or walking into an area and being blown up isn't "good design". It's just nostalgic design, because thats what old MMOs use to do.

Smart MMOs don't do that anymore because it's stupid, and, surprisingly, not many people enjoy that sort of thing.


The 2.0 world of FFXIV is pretty and it's functional. You don't have to travel far to see shit happening. And honestly, it's the only reason i kept playing the game. I have no desire to waste my life watching my character jog across an empty green texture for 7 minutes.

support this, I think it should be done in future expansion when we get bigger areas. Venturing into areas with mobs much higher level than you would make it fun.

While I am quite casual, I find that FF14 open world is boring at lvl 50. Would like some open areas that provide some challenge to do, both solo or as a party. Maybe with rare mobs that drop rarer crafting loot that a person that get once an hour.

As a casual, too crazy hard mobs are bad but FF14 is the right opposite :) And worst yet there is no reason to kill them also as their loot is not required most of the time.

Basically I feel that at lvl 50 there is really no reason for the world. I just queue at wineport and/or a town for instances.

Interesting world and mobs has nothing to do with casual. Everyone would appreciate it. I 100% agree with op.

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Originally Posted by Raymeo

I miss the danger from 1.0... well, from the first few days of 1.0 that is.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

I started this game in 2.0, but from video footage of 1.0 and years of playing open world MMOs, i really have no love for requests of scale with no substance. Or content with no real reason for adding it. Or random enemy camps littered around the world that can kill you for no good reason.

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No one likes insta-death, look at the complaints coming from TitanHM and TitanX, no one also likes needless running for anything longer than 2-3 minutes and I agree huge empty worlds for the sake of saying you have a huge world is pointless. I think what people are most looking for is a world that comes with a challenge and has a purpose outside of being a lobby for the duty finder. The beastmen strongholds in 1.0 were regularly populated with xp camps, people farming the items needed to get into primal fights, AF coffer runs and at a later date the quest to unlock your relic weapon. These zones were hard but not impossible. They were a good example of a useful open world area that wasn't to be taken lightly.

And sometimes, just sometimes you don't need an in game reason to go and risk adventure in a dangerous zone.

There is really no reason you cannot have areas of the map that are populated with enemies that actually pose you a threat and require some careful forethought before you proceeded into their territory rather than just wading in and slaughtering their strongest warriors, spouses and children.

Who are the real monsters in Eorzea?

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Originally Posted by lolirocco

Agreed, FFXI was big, I mean - the legendary run to jeuno was an actual event lol... can't even compare the two! Maybe it has something to do with limitations on behalf of ps3... They made it look nice and all but even with the small size of these areas, the loading times are killing me.

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FFXI's zone size was an illusion created by characters running very slowly - in ARR as players have a speed boost by default on top of already running quite fast by comparison with FFXI, hence it makes the zones seem smaller than they actually are. In actuality most zones in FFXI are pretty much the same size as ARR ones (by comparing maps).

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Originally Posted by Edellis

Randomly falling into a pit or walking into an area and being blown up isn't "good design". [...]
Smart MMOs don't do that anymore because it's stupid, and, surprisingly, not many people enjoy that sort of thing.

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FFXIV ARR: 1.4 million copies sold worldwide
Metacritic user score: 7.4

Dark Souls: 2.4 million copies sold worldwide
Metacritic user score: 8.3




(yes I know Dark Souls isn't technically a MMO game, but it's an online RPG game which puts it almost in the same category.)

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

FFXIV ARR: 1.4 million copies sold worldwide
Metacritic user score: 7.4

Dark Souls: 2.4 million copies sold worldwide
Metacritic user score: 8.3



(yes I know Dark Souls isn't technically a MMO game, but it's an online RPG game which puts it almost in the same category.)

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The guy you quoted is a complete moron.

I myself do enjoy danger. Dark Souls is a great game.

It's sad to admit this, but ARR is softcore as all hell and appears to be catering to people that have no idea how to have fun inside of a video game.

Well, it's worth noting that Dark Souls doesn't have a subscription model. People tend to gravitate toward things that are free, as opposed to things that require a monthly payment. How many people would buy the game if you had to pay $12.95/mo. just so some backflipping backstabber could invade your world?

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Originally Posted by chococo

People said Tanaka sucked. I think given the 2years Yoshida had, 1.0 would have been a much better fantasy game.

2.0 isn't even a fantasy RPG. It's an action thriller.

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More like a Disney movie...

There should be few high level monsters in every area so you would always have something to motivate free exploration.

Anyone who has played through Xenoblade knows how this trick can revive old "low level" areas easily and it's a great tool for the level designers.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

FFXI's zone size was an illusion created by characters running very slowly... In actuality most zones in FFXI are pretty much the same size as ARR ones (by comparing maps).

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I messed around with a FFXI private server recently, and no... your wrong. I was thinking the same thing that maybe I was misremembering and I forgot the size of the zones, but holy shit were XI zones big. La Theine Plateau is probably the size of Coerthas and it's the second zone you go to if you start in San d'oria. And it isn't copy/paste (or is well hidden) unlike 1.0. Also mind you I was running at x6 times the speed of a normal character (max speed), so "player speed" wasn't giving me any illusions.

Also something I realized is unlike XIV, there were many caves, forts, and tombs to explore, (some of which connect to other zones)... not just whatever is on the surface. The closest we have to that in XIV is the hole in the ground in South Shroud... blocked off by invisible walls.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

FFXI's zone size was an illusion created by characters running very slowly - in ARR as players have a speed boost by default on top of already running quite fast by comparison with FFXI, hence it makes the zones seem smaller than they actually are. In actuality most zones in FFXI are pretty much the same size as ARR ones (by comparing maps).

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Yeah exactly but its pointless to even try to state facts when posters like the dude above will just make some lie up crap story just to try to prove their point lol. but yeah to a normal person what you stated is obvious.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

FFXIV ARR: 1.4 million copies sold worldwide
Metacritic user score: 7.4

Dark Souls: 2.4 million copies sold worldwide
Metacritic user score: 8.3




(yes I know Dark Souls isn't technically a MMO game, but it's an online RPG game which puts it almost in the same category.)

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So i guess you quit 14 and is playing Dark Souls grats....I'll staying with 14 though I happy with the game and it seems to only be getting better.

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Originally Posted by Magis

I messed around with a FFXI private server recently, and no... your wrong. I was thinking the same thing that maybe I was misremembering and I forgot the size of the zones, but holy shit were XI zones big. La Theine Plateau is probably the size of Coerthas and it's the second zone you go to if you start in San d'oria. And it isn't copy/paste (or is well hidden) unlike 1.0. Also mind you I was running at x6 times the speed of a normal character (max speed), so "player speed" wasn't giving me any illusions.

Also something I realized is unlike XIV, there were many caves, forts, and tombs to explore, (some of which connect to other zones)... not just whatever is on the surface. The closest we have to that in XIV is the hole in the ground in South Shroud... blocked off by invisible walls.

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^
That's very true. La Theine had some caves in there. Ronfaure had the tombs. Valkrum had another tomb zone. Basically all zones, same size or bigger had more leves and substance to them.

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Originally Posted by Whiz

Yeah exactly but its pointless to even try to state facts when posters like the dude above will just make some lie up crap story just to try to prove their point lol. but yeah to a normal person what you stated is obvious.

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It's common knowledge there are server emulators that you can mess around with (every old MMO has one). The reason your character moves x6 faster at "max speed" is due to the internal speed variable being 1 byte long, giving a max value of 255. 255/40 (retail speed) = 6 times, which at least feels a lot faster than ARR's speed on Chocobos.

Going through some of the old zones you can see the size difference from the time it takes to go from the two ends, while running at the speed of a car.

What "facts" are you stating other than your own opinion? Unless we get the actually length of the zone in the map files for both games, and they both use the same world coordinate system (so everything is in relation to each other), it's all opinions!

I wish see in this game Elite or BAMS monsters like Tera..

That could be really Fun.

Those monsters could drop alternative gear to the dungeon/Craft counterparts. Starting in lv 15, these monsters also could give a exp amount able to compete vs dungeon/Fates.

Example For 4 - 8 players items ilv70 - 80, repops 30 secs.

Behemoths
Molbols
Adamantoise
Wyrms
Quimeras

For 8 - 16 players this mobs could drop items ilv80 - 85. Repops 1 min

King Behemoths
Aspidochelone Giant adamantines
Wyrms like Faftnir, Nidhogg, Tiamant
Great Molbols.
Hydra, Cerberus etc

They need to throw wandering mobs in to zones that aren't level appropriate. I remember way back in EQ this was the case and it sharpened your perception to a fine degree, even FFXI had this at the earliest of levels. I'm sure anyone who played that game remembers the horrors of Bogys in the Dunes at night. Granted, it's hard to inspire fear anymore in a game that has no real significant death penalty.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

FFXIV ARR: 1.4 million copies sold worldwide
Metacritic user score: 7.4

Dark Souls: 2.4 million copies sold worldwide
Metacritic user score: 8.3




(yes I know Dark Souls isn't technically a MMO game, but it's an online RPG game which puts it almost in the same category.)

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This mean nothing, Dark Souls was release at 2011, ARR just four months ago. Dark has free online and was also at Xbox, ARR not, also the difficult from one to another… well...

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Originally Posted by Auron_Wolf

This mean nothing, Dark Souls was release at 2011, ARR just four months ago. Dark has free online and was also at Xbox, ARR not, also the difficult from one to another… well...

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Read what he was responding to. It wasn't that DarkSouls was better to ARR or not, it was that "no one liked falling into a pit and being blow up" and that it was "bad game design". If it was such a bad game design, then that series would have failed. If anything, many people and reviewers say DS is refreshing due to it's difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Magis

Read what he was responding to. It wasn't that DarkSouls was better to ARR or not, it was that "no one liked falling into a pit and being blow up" and that it was "bad game design". If it was such a bad game design, then that series would have failed. If anything, many people and reviewers say DS is refreshing due to it's difficulty.

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Exactly.

If anything, the time should translate to lower review scores as people become more familiar with the game's flaws. But 2011 Dark Souls beats out a fresh, new, and on the surface quite impressive FFXIV:ARR.


So yeah, quite a few people would prefer challenge... and instant death, falling off cliffs, stress, and difficulty in games.

As long as the rewards are properly balanced (in the larger context of the game) to match the challenges, people will like it.

the open world makes me feel like i have training wheels and occasionally need my diaper changed. Also, before the game was released, SE hired an inspector to come child proof Eorzea. put on some tricky locks on the cabinet doors with the chemicals, a gate at the top of the basement stairs, a no slip-grip matt at the front door. bumpers on the corners of the tables to make sure i dont hit my head too hard... and then they gave me a helmet and some apple sauce to keep me safe and quiet while i sit in 1 spot and wait for DF.

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Originally Posted by Magis

Read what he was responding to. It wasn't that DarkSouls was better to ARR or not, it was that "no one liked falling into a pit and being blow up" and that it was "bad game design". If it was such a bad game design, then that series would have failed. If anything, many people and reviewers say DS is refreshing due to it's difficulty.

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I have a lot of respect for the Demon / Dark Souls devs, they didn't insult my resolve or intelligence as a gamer and throw an 'on the rails' RPG at me. They were willing to punish me, cruelly and repeatedly until I learned what to watch for, learned how to survive and then learned how to use those dart traps in my favor by letting the enemies set them off first. As hard as it was the learning curve wasn't even that big. You learned all your basic skills needed for combat in the first 30 minutes, and every creature responded accordingly to those skills. Then you just had to hone your abilities, find your preferred fighting style and then actually be brave enough to explore the still wonderfully dangerous world.

If anything SE's stance at not wanting to 'stress' us out too much or make the game too hard for us to handle has come from a long line of developers continuously dumbing down their games so as to make it more 'accessible' (Yes I'm aware of primalHM and primalX fights, but even those are heavily scripted fights, learn the dance steps and you really don't have much of an issue outside of latency really). This is a insult to our capabilities, our intelligence and underestimation of their players abilities, skills and resolve to want to overcome greater challenges and has only fostered the concept of gamers not willing or be punished to given drastic consequences for messing up.

I don't want to sit in a lobby world and wait for my next DF to pop all the time. Difficult areas in the open worlds are far more dynamic and complex than any static dungeon developers can create because the open world areas have access to one element dungeons don't. The randomness of other players. You never know just exactly what's going on when you're watching them flee for the lives from 4-5 tough enemies, do you watch them get murdered or jump into the fray and turn the odds in their favor.

Or maybe you've been carefully sneaking your way through to the very heart of the stronghold or labyrinthine maze and all that stands between you and your goal is 3 very intimidating overlords, then all of a sudden from the left field comes tearing in a party of elite adventurers decimating everything in their path and freeing up your goal for you. Or on the flip side, perhaps today you weren't as sneaky as you thought you were and you end up as lunch for very hungry kobolds. Who knows? I don't and I like that.

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Originally Posted by ToraFomalhaut

I have a lot of respect for the Demon / Dark Souls devs, they didn't insult my resolve or intelligence as a gamer and throw an 'on the rails' RPG at me. They were willing to punish me, cruelly and repeatedly until I learned what to watch for, learned how to survive and then learned how to use those dart traps in my favor by letting the enemies set them off first. As hard as it was the learning curve wasn't even that big. You learned all your basic skills needed for combat in the first 30 minutes, and every creature responded accordingly to those skills. Then you just had to hone your abilities, find your preferred fighting style and then actually be brave enough to explore the still wonderfully dangerous world.

If anything SE's stance at not wanting to 'stress' us out too much or make the game too hard for us to handle has come from a long line of developers continuously dumbing down their games so as to make it more 'accessible' (Yes I'm aware of primalHM and primalX fights, but even those are heavily scripted fights, learn the dance steps and you really don't have much of an issue outside of latency really). This is a insult to our capabilities, our intelligence and underestimation of their players abilities, skills and resolve to want to overcome greater challenges and has only fostered the concept of gamers not willing or be punished to given drastic consequences for messing up.

I don't want to sit in a lobby world and wait for my next DF to pop all the time. Difficult areas in the open worlds are far more dynamic and complex than any static dungeon developers can create because the open world areas have access to one element dungeons don't. The randomness of other players. You never know just exactly what's going on when you're watching them flee for the lives from 4-5 tough enemies, do you watch them get murdered or jump into the fray and turn the odds in their favor.

Or maybe you've been carefully sneaking your way through to the very heart of the stronghold or labyrinthine maze and all that stands between you and your goal is 3 very intimidating overlords, then all of a sudden from the left field comes tearing in a party of elite adventurers decimating everything in their path and freeing up your goal for you. Or on the flip side, perhaps today you weren't as sneaky as you thought you were and you end up as lunch for very hungry kobolds. Who knows? I don't and I like that.

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This is a beautiful post. Completely agree.

This is what MMORPG should be about. You venture into a cave. Maybe you'll find a new player who got lost and help him. Maybe you'll die, get raised by a white mage and met a new friend. Maybe you'll fine that rare NM. Maybe you'll meet a group with the same purpose as you and join. This is what MMORPG should be.

Now compare them to XIV "dungeons". You join one dungeon. Obvious linear, no "where do we go? what do we do? do we avoid it?". Everything is static, predictable, a basic set of patterns. There is no "world". No surprise.

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Originally Posted by chococo

People said Tanaka sucked. I think given the 2years Yoshida had, 1.0 would have been a much better fantasy game.

2.0 isn't even a fantasy RPG. It's an action thriller.

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These people are pure ignorance.

Tanaka isn't just the "1.0." guy, he has been with SE since the Sakaguchi days.

He worked on the original Final Fantasy, Xenogears, Mana games and made FFXI what it is. 1.0. failed, I won't deny it, but we can't blame all on him, especially considering Wada precedents.

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Originally Posted by Whiz

I love how you guys compare a game with 8+ expansions to a game thats been out 5 months without any lmfao gotta love the forums...

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well it's the structure and ideology behind the game. Having more expansions isn't suddenly going to change the game's direction. If they do, it means they've acknowledged it is a mistake now.

I say we unleash a horde of tonberries out into the wild.

Those stabbing psychopaths will set things right.

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Originally Posted by ToraFomalhaut

Eorzea feels like a world with no teeth.

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I agree. Eorzea needs a Sarlacc.

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Originally Posted by BlueMage

I agree. Eorzea needs a Sarlacc.

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Throw in a few free roaming Graboids and Eorzea would be a world I'd be scared to explore.

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Originally Posted by ToraFomalhaut

Throw in a few free roaming Graboids and Eorzea would be a world I'd be scared to explore.

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Been to Forgotten Springs lately?

Scary! I don't want to go there!

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Originally Posted by BlueMage

Been to Forgotten Springs lately?

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Yes and I squished them like bugs, very disappointing. Not once was I sucked under the sand and into the jaws of a fearsome beast, like the FFXI antilons in Altepa would do before bursting out and raining terror upon you via their countless drone spawn.

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Originally Posted by chococo

well it's the structure and ideology behind the game. Having more expansions isn't suddenly going to change the game's direction. If they do, it means they've acknowledged it is a mistake now.

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I was referring to world size. A lot of posters are comparing it to the FF11 world but its a world with 8 expansions vs 14 w/o any. that was my point.

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Originally Posted by Whiz

I was referring to world size. A lot of posters are comparing it to the FF11 world but its a world with 8 expansions vs 14 w/o any. that was my point.

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I think they were referring to individual zones, rather than the world as a whole. La Theine, Rolanberry, Beaucedine, massive zones that were in FFXI from launch.

For me, however, what I miss most is how some of the dungeons were intertwined with the outside zones. A few examples:

- Eldieme Necropolis and Batallia Downs, in particular the tiny island in the sea. I loved going there, even though there was little reason to.
- Quicksand Caves and Western Altepa; getting to the heart of that dungeon really felt like an adventure.
- The different entrances to Pso'Xja, each with a different level cap, each serving a completely different purpose.
- Temple of Uggalepih/Rancor Den and Yhoator Jungle; probably my favourite area of any RPG I've ever played.
- King Arthro's spawn area in Jugner Forest.
- Horutoto Ruins/Toraimarai Canal/Sarutabaruta

All these things made the world feel more complex and "alive", for want of a better word. All things that FFXIV can never replicate, as long as Yoshi insists on all dungeons being instanced.

As I said before, FFXI's zone size is simply an illusion created by making player characters run very slow by default - because you're running so slow, of course it's going to take longer to get from one side of the zone to the other, and hence artificially make it seem larger than it really is. All ARR has done is take off those blinders, and thus show a zone for what it truly is. Compare maps of say, East Sarutabaruta with the Central Shroud, both starting areas. They're pretty much the same size.

And before you pass judgement, many of those zones you mentioned weren't even in FFXI from launch - they were only added in expansions years after the game was first launched. Hence it's unfair to compare FFXI's eleven years' worth of content and related zones with ARR, a game which has barely been out for more than four months. Compare it with FFXI at launch (I mean, the Japanese original launch, not the US launch which came with the first expansion), and things would be very different.