Please remove gear advantages in PVP

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Originally Posted by Sigvaldus

So by everyones logic here, having more gear from beating pvp matches means you are not as skilled as someone in less pvp gear..............eh?

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*By having such a large gear gap, the outcome is disproportionately biased towards the team with greater gear, irrespective of skill. This also strongly discourages new players.

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Originally Posted by Raenryong

*By having such a large gear gap, the outcome is disproportionately biased towards the team with greater gear, irrespective of skill. This also strongly discourages new players.

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But pvp gear has no effect in the level 30 - 40 so you could just grind in the lower levels fights untill your ready to do the 50's or maybe even just replace all your gear with crafted pvp stuff, not sure how good the level 55 stuff is when used, need to test that.

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Originally Posted by Sigvaldus

But pvp gear has no effect in the level 30 - 40 so you could just grind in the lower levels fights untill your ready to do the 50's or maybe even just replace all your gear with crafted pvp stuff, not sure how good the level 55 stuff is when used, need to test that.

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i55 set is decent. Inferior to the higher PvP sets and abilities.

Your solution still involves grinding to be able to play on a semi-level field. Anathema to competitive play.

I like gear grinds, it gives me something to do and work towards. I don't think people should expect to walk into PvP and immediately be on a level playing field with other people. They have to put some time and effort into it first. FF14 has provided players with two lower PvP tiers to earn marks before they go into the highest tier. There's absolutely no need to walk into level 50 completely gearless, unless you just don't want to practice at all. You need to play in the minors before you can get to the majors.

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Originally Posted by Raenryong

i55 set is decent. Inferior to the higher PvP sets and abilities.

Your solution still involves grinding to be able to play on a semi-level field. Anathema to competitive play.

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I think there is room for argument that balance is always going to be an issue but the only way to make it an equal playing fields is to make everyone have everything and that would be dull, sometimes having a competative edge over a group or being at a disadvantage can really make for some interesting matches. I mean i'm pretty sure PVE would be hella dull if we all had to fight dungeon mobs and bosses if they did equal damage, equal defenses, my only compliant with PVP is the chain CC dual summoner/scholar combo.....

I also think one of the main places where gear advantages should be removed is for-fun dueling. It's always more fun to duel in equalized gear and try to see who's more skilled. Otherwise it's less fun and the losing player can always make the excuse "if only I had the same gear..." :(

About PvP "balance."

Do you know what one of the most popular competitive games of all time is? Marvel vs. Capcom 2.

Was that game fair? NO.

Was that game balanced? HELL NO.

But that game had a ten year lifespan, and is widely regarded as one of the best competitive games of all time.

Play the game and adapt. Use your "skills" and put the tools available to you to work.

Christ.

People would rather argue epeen on this than stick to the issue at hand lol

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Originally Posted by Raenryong

*By having such a large gear gap, the outcome is disproportionately biased towards the team with greater gear, irrespective of skill. This also strongly discourages new players.

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Lack of rewards discourages new players a lot more than a percieved imbalance. Even if they lose, they'll eventually get rewards.

Removing functional rewards / turning all rewards to vanity would be extremely damaging to PvP. Rank keeps people with likely similar gear together.

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Originally Posted by x037x

So as a child did you play on those little league teams were mercy rules where if a team was getting stomped they'd cap out and stop scoring points until the losing team caught up?

Like I said stay out of the Arena, apparently you have nor the skill to score you initial wins nor do you have the patience to climb the gear grind. STOP CRYING. It's entitled people like you who are screwing up society with your "Everybody should win" mentality.

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After reading Raenryong's thoughts of this subject across multiple posts, this response makes absolutely no sense.

I'm perfectly fine with a gear grind, because it's MMO PvP, and it's never really all that good. I play fighting games for real competition, let's be real here, PvP in a MMO is predominately about waving your dick around.

However, gear with Morale should invariably trump PvE gear. PvE gear is something you should bring into PvP when you're just starting and farming up Marks, only to be tossed to the wayside when you start collecting PvP gear. All that Allagan shit should not be as powerful as it is in a PvP environment, because it was meant for PvE. A starting player that takes the time to gear himself up entirely in the ilvl55 HQ Wolf set should trounce someone who just walks in with their ilvl90 PvE gear because the former actually took time to utilize the Morale stat.

Conversely, PvP gear should be bad outside of PvP. I know this, like so many other things, was rushed an incredible amount, so the early days are going to be kind of not great, but this should be obvious. Leave PvE to PvE, let PvP be its own entity. Any advantage you have in PvE should be wholly pointless in PvP, and vice versa. They should not intersect.

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Originally Posted by docbon

After reading Raenryong's thoughts of this subject across multiple posts, this response makes absolutely no sense.

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It makes perfect sense. Shiyo/Raenryong is complaining that gear is the ultimate deciding factor in PVP, and yes in essence he/she is right but skill also comes into play, it' say it's a 50/50 split unless you are completely and totally outgeard, and if that's the case then get to grinding. , and that's that, Further more Ray complains that the winners with better gear and awarded more points? WELL DUH! Do the champion professional sports players get paid more money? Does the winner of a poker tournament not take home the big money pot? Do the NY Yankee's not buy up the best players? DUH!

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Originally Posted by Xioned

it easy, u want gear progression?

don't allow people without pvp gear play vs player with it, just put another option in duty finder,Arena without morale

I fu_cking farm for my Gear ilvl90 drg 3 months for nothing?because now this gear is usseles and just work for pve and now need to use a horrible gear(visually).

Is funny how some guys don't sleep just for get fast ilvl70 pvp gear and pwned in arena with his gears("pros"),and ofc they can farm more easy vs no gear players,because if u havent morale , is lose 90% vs this players,disadvantage increases more and more.

This pvp mode is only for no-lifes hardcore players and ffxiv not is hardcore game.I can say this from my experience in REAL hardcore games.

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I totally agree. I should be able to do PvP AND PvE in my DoH gear since i worked very hard farming dungeons to buy the full set.

You know...

One thing that always bothered me is when people say pvp should be balanced and never ever mention pvp should be rock/paper/scissors. Classes/Jobs aren't created to be equal or homogenized to the point where picking 1 class over the other is pointless. If i want to do a certain task in pvp then i'll select that job and gear it.

This thread makes me wonder if people like the OP know how to pvp.

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Originally Posted by x037x

It makes perfect sense. Shiyo/Raenryong is complaining that gear is the ultimate deciding factor in PVP, and yes in essence he/she is right but skill also comes into play, it' say it's a 50/50 split unless you are completely and totally outgeard, and if that's the case then get to grinding. , and that's that, Further more Ray complains that the winners with better gear and awarded more points? WELL DUH! Do the champion professional sports players get paid more money? Does the winner of a poker tournament not take home the big money pot? Do the NY Yankee's not buy up the best players? DUH!

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I never thought I'd see an argument for gear progression utilizing traditional, pure skill based sports and competitive games. Absolutely nothing you listed gives a mechanical advantage to an individual player's performance within a game. Whatever perks they get outside the actual match doesn't matter.

It's an analogy, a comparison in two competitive environments with rewards. Ever watch the move moneyball? Rich teams buy good players. Good PVPers buy GOOD Gear. Still can't see it? Sorry if you don't understand, sorry if you can't draw the parallels. But keep on sympathizing with these noobs. maybe you should carry them.

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Originally Posted by x037x

It makes perfect sense. Shiyo/Raenryong is complaining that gear is the ultimate deciding factor in PVP, and yes in essence he/she is right but skill also comes into play it' say it's a 50/50 split

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I don't believe they have ever made that claim or complaint. They have stated they believe it affects the play to much. It would surprise me if they even thought in this instance it was a 50/50 split you like indicate here. However, they are making the argument that it has to much of an impact.

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Do the champion professional sports players get paid more money? Does the winner of a poker tournament not take home the big money pot? Do the NY Yankee's not buy up the best players? DUH!

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It is unfortunate that you haven't taken the time to understand their argument enough to make a proper analogy.


In this case a proper analogy would be related to the equipment of the players of those respective sports. Would you like to play baseball when you are forced to use a plastic bat and softball when the opposing team gets aluminum bats and whiffle balls or golf balls? Or play poker against a person that can use a computer to run the math on the chances of winning for each hand or that has a camera that will always see your hand? These are analogous to the gear advantages you speak of, and we haven't even gotten into more abstract rules in respectable sports such as team salary caps.


When you put focus on gear grind you put focus on starting in a league early or devoting a lot of time to it, not how quickly you learn the skills. You also diminish previously learned skills tested in the sport or related ones. If I was one of the top baseball players in one league and left to join another but was forced to use a plastic bat my ability to perform relative to the other people in the league would be diminished simply because I had not put the same amount of time as others in this league, even if I had put a significant amount of time in others. I might also not have as much time in my life to play as I did in the previous league where I developed my skill, so now to play at the top level again I might find there is nothing or very little for me to improve upon as a player and that I simply have to put in an very significant amount of time to get equal equipment.

That is the primary argument against a gear grind in a competitive setting, one of the deciding factors becomes about the amount of time someone can commit not how good they are at playing. For those of us that want to be good at something competitive it surprises us that anyone would defend a system where time committed becomes valuable relative to skill of the player. Even more so when players have already developed many or all of the skills necessary to compete, reducing the grind to not one of personal improvement but simply a giant time sink.

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If gear is normalized then they will complain "OMG SMN is so overpowered I cannot beat a SMN, OMG if a SMN is on their team, they always beat my team! It's not fair that I don't have a SMN on my team, there NEEDS to be a nerf to SMN, NERF THEM NOW!!!

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No one yet has complained about their ability to become or get a SMN on their team. SMN is still analogous to equipment though, the problem with SMN is not the access limit of it or the grind, although it has both of those problems to a certain degree, it has to do with the affect on how the game is played.

If a batter could choose between a variety of bats and one of those bats slowed down time allowing to more easily hit the ball everyone would need to use that bat to perform well. This would fundamentally change how the baseball is played and generally make the game less fun. That is unless the other bats gave out equivalent advantages, and equipment to put on the pitchers that gave equivalent advantages. The complaint is that the time slowing bat is just significantly better than the other options forcing everyone to use it to compete at a high level. In the case of SMN this might be a false complaint, but at the moment it seems to be an entirely valid one. We will need to let people consider how to overcome it with the options they have for a bit to know for sure, but it seems likely that the time slowing bat is just superior to all the other options. In an extreme case this could mean that everyone scores a homerun every time because the time slowing bat is just that good. At which point baseball becomes completely decided by who is at bat first, as they would in theory score an infinite number of runs. This would be bad for the players and the health of the game.

I don't have anything else to add, but I'd like to thank you for taking the time to post an excellent rebuttal.

I disagree with the original post. I've played many teams that out geared my team and we've won. In PVP your skill mean everything. Good gear will make a good player amazing, but good gear will make a poor player... just slightly better then poor. Anyways, everyone has the means to have the best gear in the game. Just work harder.

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Originally Posted by AmarantOrnitier

I disagree with the original post. I've played many teams that out geared my team and we've won. In PVP your skill mean everything. Good gear will make a good player amazing, but good gear will make a poor player... just slightly better then poor. Anyways, everyone has the means to have the best gear in the game. Just work harder.

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You are contradicting yourself, you can't tell me skill means everything and then tell me gear makes a good player amazing. Once you start introducing tiered gear you are actively making it so that skill literally does not mean everything. Docbon, Shiyo and Raenryong are arguing they want skill to literally mean everything, those arguing against them don't want that. Their opponents in this debate (I cringe using that word for this 'discussion') want time investment to be a portion of the 'how much impact do you individually have on the pvp match' equation.


It is also false to state that good gear with will make a good player amazing. Having better gear does not make a good player better, it gives a good player an advantage over others. In this case largely because they have invested time in the game, even if that time investment has not improved their ability to play it well. It is a wonderful illusion created in many games, gear is a powerful part of how to make players feel more powerful feel like they are progressing even if they aren't. The illusion of individual progression can even work against an individuals actual progression. Get enough of a gear advantage and you can overcome handicaps in skill. No, gear does not make a good player amazing, it increases the impact any player can have on a match regardless of skill because they had and were willing to invest more time than their opponent, allies or competition for the same slot on a team.

Also working hard is not the primary factor in what leads to better gear, time is. Work more is a valid statement, and if you work harder you can decrease how long you have to work for, but it mostly comes down to working more not working harder (although there is an element of working smarter, such as finding two friends who work hard to queue in the solo queue with you and pub stomp for points). Working harder is exactly what Shiyo, DocBon and Raenryong want. It is something that any true competitive player wants. They don't however want to work more to be on equal footing with with someone who doesn't work as hard.

I have to agree, I actually don't like gear based pvp. I have a il95 allagan weapon and I still think gear should be completely for vanity only. I'd be really happy if they would just balance the classes, skills etc. and made pvp completely for titles, mounts, vanity gear instead of what it is right now..

The trouble with having no gear progression is that it stops the majority of players even touching PvP in an MMO. GW2 PvP was a complete flop for the same reason. The barrier of access isn't so low here as it is with LoL and such as you actually need to pay and level up in this game. There isn't going to be a huge amount of people PvPing anymore. Most people won't spam PvP the way they do now, they'll do it once in awhile when their friends are on.

You can't claim to be looking at the future of the game when you don't understand the difference between a P2P MMORPG and a F2P MOBA/e-sport.

MMORPG = The majority of players are here for progression and socializing.

MOBA = The majority of players are there for the fun of killing people, with no cares for progression

I get the idea of wanting PvP to be skill-based, opposed to whoever spends the most amount of time in the game. However, this is not the kind of game for this style of PvP. Look at any MMORPG that tried this and you'll see the PvP is completely wasted. You're asking to remove progression from a game that's all about progression.

Not to mention the huge player-base they'll piss off if they remove gear that people have been farming for the past week. There was already a huge s**tstorm when they changed 1 stat on 1 item, imagine what'll happen if they start taking hard-earned gear out of the game.

Also, I completely understand where the argument is coming from. I play basketball and I'm 6'1", which is small. I'm constantly playing against people taller than me, yet I'm happy to try harder than them to be better than them. Natural height be damned.

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Originally Posted by SolRising

I have to agree, I actually don't like gear based pvp. I have a il95 allagan weapon and I still think gear should be completely for vanity only. I'd be really happy if they would just balance the classes, skills etc. and made pvp completely for titles, mounts, vanity gear instead of what it is right now..

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If there is no gear progression in an MMORPG then it defeats the purpose. PvP or not. GW2 'tried' to take this another direction and it failed horribly.

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Originally Posted by LongNu

If there is no gear progression in an MMORPG then it defeats the purpose. PvP or not. GW2 'tried' to take this another direction and it failed horribly.

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100% agree with this.

If i wanted to play JUST for the pvp, i would play LOL, DOTA or Battlefield 4.

But in an MMO i want progression, new gear, stronger gear, cooler gear.
I want to min max my gear and have an edge over people who dont bother.

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Originally Posted by Seripha_Starbane

Both in GW2 and SWTOR where gear is close to vanity only, the competative pvp element has failed horribly. People want to progress. Thats why they play mmos.
Skill based pvp sounds really nice, but it gets boring really quick if you arent working to goals that give you the edge. Same applies for pve. Why not make skill based pve? Cause people want progress, creating a mega strong character, who can do more than other peoples characters can.

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This, although I prefer a rating system with a ladder.

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Originally Posted by LongNu

This, although I prefer a rating system with a ladder.

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Agreed. The wow system in that sense was nice. As it helped with matchmaking, rewards and epeen :)

Loved how at a "quite attainable" rating you could get a better weapon. Hope they implement something similar here.

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Originally Posted by x037x

Sorry if you noobs want to cry about gear vs skill. If you can't win the matches to even get said gear.... I don't know what to tell you. Stay out of the arena.

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Agreed fully. Why should people in not even full DL, now be better than people who bothered making full pvp gear (which is incredibly easy). And i dont mind if people who busted their asses in pve, at least till people get better pvp gear have a small advantage at start. The system as it is now, is just a grind, and im sure they will make upgrades to it once things smooth out.

Just dont make the mistake swtor and gw2 made in their competative pvp element. :)

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Originally Posted by SirGazuntai

The trouble with having no gear progression is that it stops the majority of players even touching PvP in an MMO.

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The majority of people are not going to be touching or only barely touch small group arena PvP in any MMO. Most people do not play MMOs for the PvP.

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GW2 PvP was a complete flop for the same reason. The barrier of access isn't so low here as it is with LoL and such as you actually need to pay and level up in this game.

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The original Guild Wars PvP is a giant success. Guild Wars 2 PvP's failures had little to do with a progression system, and a lot to do with bad designers. Designers who are unable to understand how their decisions affected how the game plays, how weapon swapping should be used as a mechanic in pvp, how their healing system would function, they are so inept that basically every update since release has made the game worse not better for pvp. They failed to deliver on their marketing on multiple fronts, probably the most insulting is their combo field system. No GW2 is not an example of how MMOs need gear grind to be successful, it is an example of how bad designers can ruin a brand if they are bad.

Also the accesibility barrier while different than LoL or DotA is certainly not lower. It requires more up front time investment that is not PvP related at all, but past that there is little you need to learn. While in the aforementioned games there are a hundred possible game pieces that can be dropped on the board and to be good at the game you need really need to learn how to play with, as and against every single one of them. Not to mention item choices. FFXIV takes time investment, LoL and DotA require the gathering of a lot lot more game knowledge to even start to play well.

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You can't claim to be looking at the future of the game when you don't understand the difference between a P2P MMORPG and a F2P MOBA/e-sport.

MMORPG = The majority of players are here for progression and socializing.

MOBA = The majority of players are there for the fun of killing people, with no cares for progression

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I certainly understand the the difference my friend. And at its core what you don't express understanding of is the difference in business model.

I have not made an argument yet that this game shouldn't have a gear grind for the financial health of itself. I've made an argument for why a true competitive player is and should be turned off by a gear grind. I honestly don't know what the best decision is for FFXIV a subscription based MMO is in a PvP area. Building in a grind that takes most people months or years to load up all the classes they want to play could make them a lot of money or the grind could result in people that wanted a competitive experience canceling their subs and going to other games. I know that besides playing PvP to get a better idea of how this system works in that environment, I won't be playing it very much or at all. I'll go to other games that offer a competitive environment without a work more time commitment. This will likely result in me canceling my sub, that is unless their PvE content continues to be worth while to play with the friends I have who also play this game. PvP won't keep me mostly cause of the required time commitment to even play at the level that the game will be designed around. I might be in the minority of FFXIV players, but I can state with certainty that MMO PVP does not need a gear grind to be successful. In this instance I'm sure these designers believe it will make more money for them or their company within this business model, and they could very well be right.

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Look at any MMORPG that tried this and you'll see the PvP is completely wasted. You're asking to remove progression from a game that's all about progression.

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This is wrong, GW1 is one example. But no what I'm doing is stating that FFXIV PvP makes working more - vs working harder - a greater impact than I want it to have in a competitive environment, and that this turns my desire away from playing it. Not simply because I don't have and don't want to put in that amount of time but because I also won't actually experience the potential of what this PvP has to offer till I max my gear for multiple classes. Something I'm just not willing to spend the time to do, so I won't be playing it.

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Not to mention the huge player-base they'll piss off if they remove gear that people have been farming for the past week. There was already a huge s**tstorm when they changed 1 stat on 1 item, imagine what'll happen if they start taking hard-earned gear out of the game.

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It is completely unrealistic to expect that FFXIV will remove its gear grind, that doesn't change the value in expressing disappointment that it has one. It provides initial feedback on how players are reacting to a newly implemented systems, and hopefully shapes the focus for how they design their PvP in the future, possibly decreases the amount of grind required to a point I or others will choose to engage in it while not removing it for the people that value working more instead of working harder. It signals to an industry that is reluctant to innovate that there is demand for a game with a MMO style that has grindless PvP, just don't suck are your job like GW2 designers.

To even suggest that the reason GW2 pvp is so bad is due to a lack of progression is mind blowing, that game failed PvP in just about every way imaginable. None of their supporting systems lent to a team environment, no class synergy, failed combo field concepting, incredibly extreme equipment options, half their traits are useless or worse, weapon swapping added little to nothing, pretty boring game mode that actively decreased the impact a single player could have and the list goes on. GW2 failed in so many aspects that laying it at the feet on a lack of progression system is just you being dishonest.

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Also, I completely understand where the argument is coming from. I play basketball and I'm 6'1", which is small. I'm constantly playing against people taller than me, yet I'm happy to try harder than them to be better than them. Natural height be damned.

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Great, I'm 5'6'' the equipment I've been given is wholly insufficient to play basketball without working really hard and having grown up in favorable environments. According to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...iation_history there are only 3 players in the history of the NBA who are might height or shorter. Basketball is a great example of a game where equipment has very disproportionate impact from skill. If you were born tall the amount of skill you need to have impact on the game decreases pretty significantly compared to someone of my height. Even someone if your 'meer' 6'1'' has to work a lot less hard to have the same amount if impact in a game of basketball.

I promise, you will still lose in the gear you think you need.

PVP needs its own gear.

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Originally Posted by Someonewithclap

I promise, you will still lose in the gear you think you need.

PVP needs its own gear.

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+1 (includes 10 characters)

When you get facerolled by a team "full of PvP" gear I'm positive on 90% of the cases they didn't beat you because of the gear (more specially now that the difference should be small still).

It is called correlation, people who are "full of PvP" gear, have played MUCH more PvP than you, thus they have better experience, so don't assign all the blame on gear.

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Please remove gear advantages in PVP.

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We ALL started this game with the exact same gear advantages. If someone worked on PVE gear & had all level 90 going into PVP, they earned that gear and so could have you. If someone crafted HQ PVP gear on the day of 2.1 release, you could have done the same or purchased it on auction.

My biggest disadvantage at this point is not having a group and losing to premade teams of 3 that communicate & have a plan of strategy. I am not whining about it as even though I have not found a group, there is nothing in the mechanics of this game preventing me from finding or forming one. Yes, attaining gear is much slower for me right now as I am not getting many wins but I am certainly not going to suggest that you punish others simply because they are excelling at pvp at a faster rate than me as we ALL had the same advantages in this game gear-wise from the day we started playing.

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Originally Posted by MrMr

I have not made an argument yet that this game shouldn't have a gear grind for the financial health of itself. I've made an argument for why a true competitive player is and should be turned off by a gear grind.

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WRONG... A true competitive player will do whatever it takes to win, whether it be practicing his skill or grinding day and night for gear to be "better"

Your argument is invalid.

Furthermore, I'm finally full i70 PVP gear and if I get stunned locked and my purify is tapped and I have 3 well skilled semi geard PVE DPS on me.. I'M DEAD...end of story doesn't matter what gear I have, it honestly does nothing for me in that situation... YEAH I can pop my attunement ( i have to spam it and pray it pops off) but as soon as it's done a well skilled DPS will know to wait and re-stun me as soon as attunment is gone, then and I'm dead GG. So having the "gear" doesn't necessarily make me better, there is ALOT of skill involved to not get caught in a 3 DPS stun lock-rape as a WHM all the while heaing myself and teamates, esuna'ing sleeps, esuna'ing debufs etc... . If anything the gear helps me take less dmg as I kite for my life, but honestly after reaching rank 20 I can say with confidence this argument about the gear is simply the underlying envy and lack of skill from people who can't win, and therefore can't score they gear that they are complaining about.

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Originally Posted by Vektrat

When you get facerolled by a team "full of PvP" gear I'm positive on 90% of the cases they didn't beat you because of the gear (more specially now that the difference should be small still).

It is called correlation, people who are "full of PvP" gear, have played MUCH more PvP than you, thus they have better experience, so don't assign all the blame on gear.

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THIS! ^^ Thank you finally somebody with some common sense.

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Originally Posted by Vektrat

When you get facerolled by a team "full of PvP" gear I'm positive on 90% of the cases they didn't beat you because of the gear (more specially now that the difference should be small still).

It is called correlation, people who are "full of PvP" gear, have played MUCH more PvP than you, thus they have better experience, so don't assign all the blame on gear.

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My good Sir, may i sig this?

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Originally Posted by Vektrat

When you get facerolled by a team "full of PvP" gear I'm positive on 90% of the cases they didn't beat you because of the gear (more specially now that the difference should be small still).

It is called correlation, people who are "full of PvP" gear, have played MUCH more PvP than you, thus they have better experience, so don't assign all the blame on gear.

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Who is complaining about getting facerolled? Time investment does correlate to gear it does not correlate very well at all to skill.
Someone who has little time playing this games pvp might have a lot of experience pvp in other very similar games and lot of pve experience in this one. That person could very well be more skilled than the person who has invested a significant amount of time in this games pvp. That person who invested time and got gear that has 'experience' is not necessarily skilled.

No need to throw out strawmen, just accept you value working more and not working harder rather than pathetically trying to change my and others arguments.

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Originally Posted by x037x

WRONG... A true competitive player will do whatever it takes to win, whether it be practicing his skill or grinding day and night for gear to be "better"

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No a competitive player wants to be better not "better" and that right there that you needed to put quotes around the word is exactly the point.

Anyway, I tried, if you all -or both- refuse to read what is actually written in opposition to your beliefs I have no hope of having a civil discussion with you. Hopefully others will take the time instead of mindlessly forming beliefs. Best of luck with your grind for gear hopefully you are also becoming better players in the mean time.

I quoted better because you don't think people are "better" when they pwn you because they have better gear.. so you come on these forums and say, they aren't skilled they just have better gear, well didn't hey score the wins in the first place to buy said gear.. .right?

Laughing at the people who thinks it's all skills when a guy in full ilevel 70 pvp gears beats up on a guy in only ilevel 55 gears or pve gears. Sure, skills are involved to an extent, but when you're outgeared, there's not much you can do when you're doing 50 damage to the guy while he's doing 150 to you.

It's ok that there is gear progression in PVP, but at least make the matches more even. Currently, it's almost always a team with all pugs with ilvl55 pvp gears vs a 3 man premade with all ilvl70 pvp gears. In that instance, just the premade only is a huge advantage but now you add the gears on top of that and it's nearly impossible for the pug to beat.

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Originally Posted by Imapooonu

Words cannot not describe the ignorance in this post.

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I looked you up on the lodestone (Drain Bead) and words can describe the sadness I feel for you, keep grinding, you'll get there someday, in the meantime I guess you can keep sympathizing with people the likes of MRMR as you QQ about getting facerolled in the wolves den.

And seriously at least get a full DL or PVP set before you gimp the team you're random queueing for. LVL 40 stuff, cmon man grind WP for a sec before you attempt to PVP.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by x037x

I looked you up on the lodestone (Drain Bead) and words can describe the sadness I feel for you, keep grinding, you'll get there someday, in the meantime I guess you can keep sympathizing with people the likes of MRMR as you QQ about getting facerolled in the wolves den.

And seriously at least get a full DL or PVP set before you gimp the team you're random queueing for. LVL 40 stuff, cmon man grind WP for a sec before you attempt to PVP.

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He could be on his alt man.