Summoner got destroyed this patch

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Originally Posted by Stupified

I understand what SE was trying to do. Make SMN better AOE and worse ST to allow MNK and BLM to better compete single target.

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I was under the impression the reason for Blizzard II to become CC, was to act more of a situational panic button for when you get surrounded rather than an actual AoE damage skill. Probably relevant to WHM/SCH and PvP... but pretty much worthless on a SMN since, again, they have Tri-Disaster for that.

The SMN's AoE potential will remain unchanged. The only difference is they just can no longer cleave Thunder across multiple enemies in-between using Bane or Shadow Flare.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

His original quarry was, is Thunder's loss worth (nerfed) Blizzard II going in? It's Thunder vs B2, not Ruin vs B2.

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And the answer to that is a question: How many targets will you be hitting? After a point, B2 will out-DPS Thunder multi-DoTing.

And another question: How long will the targets remain alive? If the duration is too short, B2 will easily out-DPS Thunder multi-DoTing.

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Originally Posted by Stupified

I understand what SE was trying to do. Make SMN better AOE and worse ST to allow MNK and BLM to better compete single target. But heres the thing, you took a SMN into coil because though they had no real advantages in burst dps checks, their overall great DMG made up for it. Now that BLM and SMN will be roughly competitive ST dmg, AND even though SMN might be better at AOE (there are very few endgame situations where AOE is truly a challenge), might as well just Go/Bring BLM for all circumstances. Seems all SE looked at was what they wanted certain job roles to be, not how it translated to overall endgame need.

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All I read here is uninformed assumptions
All I read here is boring whining without anything to back up the claims

BLM is getting their own balancing with the fixing of umbral/astral and mana so that they can't do their usual burst tricks. They still have burst, just less frequent
SMN is getting their own balancing with removing a THM dot.


Twintania pull used to go, on the 3 scourges:

BLM opens up on one then triple flares the lot
SMN dots one up, (I like to miasma II the lot before contagion), Contagion, Banes, shadow flares, spend your Aetherflow stacks, get another 3 stack and use it up if you want, dot up twintania while your dots are up on the 3 scourges

So far you haven't needed to ruin spam.

Also pushing Twintania to drop the first Neurolink is all dependent on the DOTs I put - we call dps to stop at 89% right after a Death Sentence. When DPS is called to stop - I open up all my dots + contagion and shadow flare and then we wait for the ~10 second mark before DS for everyone to continue DPS and push her to drop neurolink and do a Death sentence before the first meteor - this way, the MT can go in each conflag to avoid death sentence for the entire conflag phase and only worry about virus during Twisters and the last phase.

I don't know about you, but I quite enjoy this way of controlling the DPS. I got my role in my group.

Things will be slightly different for Twintania with the Virus nerf, but other than that, my own role is unchanged.

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Originally Posted by Stupified

I understand what SE was trying to do. Make SMN better AOE and worse ST to allow MNK and BLM to better compete single target. But heres the thing, you took a SMN into coil because though they had no real advantages in burst dps checks, their overall great DMG made up for it. Now that BLM and SMN will be roughly competitive ST dmg, AND even though SMN might be better at AOE (there are very few endgame situations where AOE is truly a challenge), might as well just Go/Bring BLM for all circumstances. Seems all SE looked at was what they wanted certain job roles to be, not how it translated to overall endgame need.

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But BLM will still not be competitive in ST damage, and MNK will only be competitive in fights that involve a lot of pure stand-up DPS. (T1 and T2)

I would be ok with the thunder removal if they had given us something in return. Blizz 2 is not a good exchange. Now if they had removed the target cap of Bane I wouldn't even care about losing thunder. If SE really wanted to give us more AoE capability they should buffed Bane. Blizz 2 will not work for any sort of AoE spam simply because you will go OoM too fast. My biggest expectation for this whole patch was a buff to Bane and it just wasn't there (increase in range is negligible). Them removing Thunder was just a kick in the egi's. Uncalled for and uneeded. Every caster class already has some sort of bind and an AoE spell. Not one class will benefit from blizz2 period.

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Originally Posted by KroLeXz

You guys are forgetting BLM biggest nerf that was stated in the patch notes because it was a bug fix.....Mana Regen now is sync with umbral buffs, no more double flare or additional hasted spells.

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so BLM loses some power in WPSR while summoner loses power throughout the whole game. :V

So .. SMN will go extinct now ? unless suddenly ... BAM!! Aero

Look what you all did, you made kevee mad.

I tried to read a lot of the arguments here but it just seems like a lot of back and forth on whether SMN was "destroyed" or, whether it "needed a nerf" or whatever.

I think most of you glossed over Kevee's main points, which are also the points I've been trying to convey.

Mathematically, this is a single target (and cleave) dps loss of around 7.5%, maybe more depending on contagion use and whether you multidot with it or not. It is also a mana efficiency loss, but not a mana usage gain. What I mean by that is, over the course of X seconds, you will use less MP, but if you had to deal Y damage, you would spend more of it now than before.

So this kinda sucks. But summoners are still usable.

The boots change is similar in effect, albeit on an even smaller scale. Anyone who thinks moving some stats around will destroy their dps is really, really falling into the MMO trap, where they make you think your incremental upgrades are extremely important. They aren't.

But it is the rationale behind the nerfs that is problematic.

Taking away cross class skills just makes it, well, boring, and completely against the only thing that makes this game unique, which is the customizability of your skillset through cross classing. This, sucks.

Making valor (oops, I mean myth) point gear better than drops is also a BAD thing, as it makes it a huge grind, rather than an accomplishment, to obtain your "BiS" gear. This is especially dumb because you can literally get EVERY piece of gear with myth (okay not your second ring, boohoo). This is...really...odd endgame progression, to say the least.

So obviously since I've never created any MMOs, I can't speak to what they're thinking. But as a player of many, I have to say, these changes suck, and aren't the right way to go about it.

That is what is worrying.

Also those that think the "interrupt on any direct damage" isn't going to completely destroy casters are very, very mistaken. Also, before you say "but pvp only skills", take a look at them, which of them gives you surecast?

Also, the "nerf" to sustain is...what? Like, why? How? What? When? Who?

I don't even know what question to ask about that change. What...necessitated it? What is the point of the "change"? Was it thematic? I really, really don't understand that one, at all.

I'd Shadow Flare + Miasmara + Tri-Disaster any day instead of using Blizzard II, I refuse to use it >:E

Thunder for Blizzard II is a really bad trade, I'd rather pick up the 100 Potency Scathe to use as a RuinII substitute but I guess not.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

So this kinda sucks. But summoners are still usable.

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Usable, yes, but now the question is whether it's worth sticking with the class or whether a swap to blm is a better idea (for pve anyway, I'm still expecting us to be extremely competitive in pvp). I'm kind of undecided, so I guess we'll see how things play out once the patch goes live.

I'm going to leave Thunder on my hotbar until the day it lights up again

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Originally Posted by Madoka

I'm going to leave Thunder on my hotbar until the day it lights up again

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I would laugh, but then I remember that even with Thunder, SMN gets shafted for cross-class. :(

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Originally Posted by Sylari

The virus nerf hits BLM/WHM with their inferior cross class Virus harder than it does the arcanists.

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Yea I'll probably just leave virus alone now. Oh well.

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Originally Posted by Madoka

I'm going to leave Thunder on my hotbar until the day it lights up again

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The power of hope xD

I wish they would at least explain the reasoning behind all this.
Nerfing is a thing but they shouldn't make our gameplay more boring.
And what's the point of changing the boots stats?
I love this class and I don't want to play something else but it's really worrying to see such poorly made decisions.
The fact that they just threw all this in our faces 2 days before the patch didn't help either.
I feel like they don't give a crap about summoners.

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Originally Posted by RaideDuku

So, out of curiosity, I went and tested the nerf. Since damage values on ruin aren't changed, this was actually simple. I timed how long it took to cast thunder and the effect's duration. I then cast thunder on a target and spammed ruin until thunder ran out. On the second target, I simply spammed ruin for the same duration (yes, including the time it takes to cast thunder). I did this 100 times to make sure I had a decently sized test pool. Here is a screenshot of the typical difference of damage. The target on the right is the thunder + ruin target. Target on the left is ruin only for the same duration: http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acci...6ba7f3e378.png

So , yeah. So much for SPAM RUIN MOAR. Keep in mind that's 20.42 seconds (give or take a half a second of human reaction time) of damage. Imagine a Titan HM, or coil bosses, and the amount of damage loss is staggering.

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its a quiet small difference but there is! in a normal boss fight u have to refresh ur rotation about 6 or 7 times,so this difference as to multiplyed by that number...and yes its a big difference now

<3 Kevee <3 Pandabearcat <3

Love you.

Edit : <3 EasymodeX <3 but he/she does not seem to be around anymore :(

I am more sad about losing thunder because I liked keeping up my dot rotations than about any dps loss.

It is just that I think Thunder suits the Summoner class better as it is a DoT heavy class. Blizzard just seems... out of place.

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Originally Posted by Alice_89th

I am more sad about losing thunder because I liked keeping up my dot rotations than about any dps loss.

It is just that I think Thunder suits the Summoner class better as it is a DoT heavy class. Blizzard just seems... out of place.

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SE apparently thought SMN's single target damage was too high, and thought SMN needed an AOE nuke/filler.

Getting rid of Thunder is still lame, as I don't think SMN has enough DOTs or enough to do, but then I really hate using Filler-- I mean, Ruin.

The class will be fine, DPS-wise. Its not gonna go from best to worst, desireable to undesireable, over Thunder, like some people are overreacting. Its gonna be just a bit more boring though.

On average you can use 1 stack of Aetherflow per rotation and you can use Ruin/Ruin II about 3 times between DOTs every rotation. Pet Potency doesn't work exactly when compared to Character Potency DMG isn't so easy to calculate. For example Garuda's 100 Potency attack is about 70% stronger than Ifrit's 120 Potency Attack (not including Ifrit's Auto-Attack). However Ifrit's 120 Potency Attack + Auto-Attack = Garuda's 100 Potency Attack (no Auto-Attack available).

Bio: Potency 40/tick Duration 18s (6 ticks) Total Potency = 240
Miasma: Potency 20 + Potency 35/tick Duration 24s (8 ticks) Total Potency = 300
Bio II: Potency 35/tick Duration 30s (10 ticks) Total Potency = 350
Thunder: Potency 30 + Potency 35/tick Duration 18s (6 ticks) Total Potency = 240
Shadow Flare: Potency 25/tick Duration 30s (10 ticks) Total Potency = 250

Energy Drain: Potency 150
Fester: Potency 300 (max)
Ruin/RuinII x3 (w/Thunder) and x4 (w/o Thunder): Potency 240 and 320

Pet does about 1/3 of TOTAL SMN DPS so:
Character DMG/2 = Pet Damage on AVG
Total CHARACTER DMG thus far w/Thunder and Fester =1,920
Total CHARACTER DMG thus far w/o Thunder and including Fester =1,760
1,920/2 = 960
TOTAL SMN DMG = 2,880 Potency and 2,720 Potency
2,880/2,720 = 94.4% OR a loss of 5.6% in TOTAL SMN Single Target DMG/DPS

In 2.1 the loss of Thunder is replaced with the addition of Blizzard II for SMN. SMN was already the king of non-SR (speed run) AOE, now it's going to help close the gap on SR AOE when compared to other jobs. Before you had to cast Thunder individually on every target to maximize AOE DPS on 2-4 targets (which took up the entire time between your rotation). Now Thunder mutlicast is replaced with Blizzard II and it works very similarly to casting Ruin/Ruin II between DOTs in your rotation. You never really had enough time to cast Thunder on all 4 mobs between rotations.

Bio: Potency 40/tick Duration 18s (6 ticks) Total Potency = 240 (2-4)
Miasma: Potency 20 + Potency 35/tick Duration 24s (8 ticks) Total Potency = 300 (2-4)
Bio II: Potency 35/tick Duration 30s (10 ticks) Total Potency = 350 (2-4)
Shadow Flare: Potency 25/tick Duration 30s (10 ticks) Total Potency = 250 (ALL)
Miasma II: Potency 20 + Potency 10/tick 15s (5 ticks) Total potency = 70 (ALL)

Bane: Potency 0

Blizzard II x3: Potency 50 (ALL) Total Potency = 150 (ALL)
OR 450 POT on 3 mobs
v
Thunder x3: Potency 30 + Potency 35/tick Duration 18s = Total Potency 240 (2-3)
OR 720 POT on 3 mobs

Total Potency on 3 mobs:
Blizzard II Rotation = 4,080
Thunder Roation = 4,350

Too hard to calculate Pet DMG here but it will lessen the DPS the gap between these
two rotations, but as is, that is:

4,080/4,350 = 93.8% OR a loss in 6.2% TOTAL DMG on 3 targets w/o pet

However on 5+ targets Blizzard II does actually increase your TOTAL DMG exponentially per target increase and also Blizzard II will increase AOE burst DPS for both 2-4 and 5+ targets. Sometimes mobs die before DOTs expire, which is particularly bad for SMN trying to level up or earn Gold in FATEs.

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Originally Posted by OmegaNovaios

On average you can use 1 stack of Aetherflow per rotation and you can use Ruin/Ruin II about 3 times between DOTs every rotation. Pet Potency doesn't work exactly when compared to Character Potency DMG isn't so easy to calculate. For example Garuda's 100 Potency attack is about 70% stronger than Ifrit's 120 Potency Attack (not including Ifrit's Auto-Attack). However Ifrit's 120 Potency Attack + Auto-Attack = Garuda's 100 Potency Attack (no Auto-Attack available).

Bio: Potency 40/tick Duration 18s (6 ticks) Total Potency = 240
Miasma: Potency 20 + Potency 35/tick Duration 24s (8 ticks) Total Potency = 300
Bio II: Potency 35/tick Duration 30s (10 ticks) Total Potency = 350
Thunder: Potency 30 + Potency 35/tick Duration 18s (6 ticks) Total Potency = 240
Shadow Flare: Potency 25/tick Duration 30s (10 ticks) Total Potency = 250
Energy Drain: Potency 150
Fester: Potency 300 (max)
Ruin/RuinII x3 (w/Thunder) and x4 (w/o Thunder): Potency 240 and 320

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i dont understand a thing and that confusing me about ur maths LOL
why you can do ruid\ruin2 x3? thunder has 2.5 cast time as ruin,you can do max 1 ruin and 1 ruin2 in that time,with a gcd to use for fester or rouse\spur

and you are not considering that we have to stay close to the target using blizzard,so you cant use in most boss fights,and we still dont know if mana cost for summoner is the same of blm,we cant take benefits from umbrella ice so we will have a good loss of mana spamming it, 3xthunder are 646 mana over 18 seconds ,blizzard can be used often but forces us to run under mob,cast blizzard,cast miasma,run back,same reason for what we dont use so often miasma2,im trying to change my gamestyle to introduce miasma in every fights but i cant do easily on T1,unthinkable in t2,t3...no one cares titan is the only think we need lol,t4 is the only place where we really need miasma2 and now blizzard,but im still worried about mana usage,we have so less mana than blm and if we want to keep up our mana we cant use fester

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Originally Posted by xardus

i dont understand a thing and that confusing me about ur maths LOL
why you can do ruid\ruin2 x3? thunder has 2.5 cast time as ruin,you can do max 1 ruin and 1 ruin2 in that time,with a gcd to use for fester or rouse\spur

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Oh, thunder's potential was not based off of a single target, it was based of off each target it hit. You can apply thunder on several targets vs. smacking one with ruin/ruin 2. What Omega was trying to point out is that we're weaker by 5% or whatever that number is based on 2~4 mobs, but the damage regarding 5+ mobs has been increased.

oh...i missed that point :) lol thx hehehe
anyway i added an edit on my post with more considerations

Ruin2 is not off GCD, using Ruin+Ruin2 is still two GCDs. There is literally no reason to use Ruin 2 in any rotation

Daily limit edit

Using Ruin 2 is going to screw with a Tank's option to blind in the hopes of avoiding some damage. just take the second of down time moving out of an AoE or use it to cast Fester if it's off CD.

It's fine in crap dungeons, but never use Ruin 2 in coil or primals. Let the tank help themselves with Flash.

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Originally Posted by Madoka

Ruin2 is not off GCD, using Ruin+Ruin2 is still two GCDs. There is literally no reason to use Ruin 2 in any rotation

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Well if you want to blind pre Titan's table flip, I ain't gonna be mad. Also guys, quote from the developers.
"As I mentioned during the previous LIVE letter, there are a lot of cases where melee combos and chains are interrupted making burst DPS difficult, so dragoon and monk will be receiving roughly a 10% increase in damage per second. Rather than reducing the effectiveness of other classes, we will be making adjustments to increase certain elements this time."
I lol'd

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Originally Posted by Madoka

Ruin2 is not off GCD, using Ruin+Ruin2 is still two GCDs. There is literally no reason to use Ruin 2 in any rotation

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You can replace Ruin with Ruin II if you need to move while doing your rotation since it's instant cast. This will apply at any time during the rotation, as instead of casting a DOT you simply use Ruin II and cast the next spell in your rotation afterwards and omit a Ruin from the end of your rotation. This effectively makes it so your rotation doesn't lose DPS (or at least very much DPS) if you compare it to say BLM.

Also, Ruin II can be used to close a burst or for the kill shot since it's instant cast, which can end a fight or push or thwart a mechanic from occurring. Such as on Turn 5 Conflag. Let's say the Conflag will blow up in 2 seconds and has 1 HP left. If you cast Ruin then it will blow up before you finish the cast, but if you use Ruin II then it dies 1.5 seconds before then.

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Originally Posted by Madoka

Ruin2 is not off GCD, using Ruin+Ruin2 is still two GCDs. There is literally no reason to use Ruin 2 in any rotation

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Actually I like to use Ruin2 over Ruin 1 if my MP allows it since I could use skills that ignores GCD like Fester-Virus-Spur-Energy Drain and so on it also blinds the target that helps the tank somehow, than the time it takes to cast Ruin 1 but I guess it s about preference :)

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Originally Posted by Madoka

Ruin2 is not off GCD, using Ruin+Ruin2 is still two GCDs. There is literally no reason to use Ruin 2 in any rotation

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mmh..how you play summoner?LOL
uding ruin1 then ruin2 you have gcd where you can use fester,Energydrain,rouse\spur\enkindle\bane\virus\an eye for an eye...there are lots of think you can do in that gcd time after ruin2,and that why we have to use sometime

K so ruin II has it uses, but there's a debate on either side due to the mana cost. No need to question someone's ability because they don't use a vastly debated skill.

Ruin/Ruin II x3 means that you can cast either of those spells 3 times before the rotation of DOTs needs to be re-applied in a simple rotation. So my rotation includes 3 Ruin casts. I'm not including any CDs in this as they can be applied at any time and that affects DMG at that time globally which will affect your DPS, but that's not necessary to compare actions. Applying CDs will leave us with the same ratio of increase or decrease in DPS when comparing actions in most cases and it just makes it way more complicated.

On bosses you won't be using Blizzard II in your single target rotation. Miasma II is only good for single target if used with Contagion and most of the time isn't worth the time it takes to run toward the target and back out of the way even if you work it in well between casts or during instant casts. Blizzard II won't affect our MP management any more than casting Thunder on multiple targets. Being able to use Blizzard II up close for AOEs will be the same as using Miasma II, even during boss fights if your skilled you can do it well. If you can't then don't worry about it. Staying alive is more important for sustaining DPS than maximizing DMG every second.

Boots loss while annoying isn't end all, the new primal accesories all have accuracy
Still annoying, but we can recover from it.
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...m/9c4bf0b3b11/
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...m/13f2ad2e23b/
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...m/39221763bd6/
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...m/ae4b8c028c5/

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Originally Posted by PriyaJugulataris

K so ruin II has it uses, but there's a debate on either side due to the mana cost. No need to question someone's ability because they don't use a vastly debated skill.

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sure,ruin2 shouldnt be spammed around as hell hehe,just when you have to cast fester or other non gcd spell to maximise you dps,in this way you dont waste your mana

You can also get HQ i70 jewelry and do a 9 INT 9 MND 9 VIT 6 PIE 12 Acc build on every slot. VIT and PIE helps a lot and the loss in INT from i90 is a very small difference in DPS. Some pieces already come with Acc so just place the the Acc III with something you prefer.
VIT IV +8
PIE IV +6
Acc III +6
Acc III +6
VIT I +1

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Originally Posted by OmegaNovaios

You can also get HQ i70 jewelry and do a 9 INT 9 MND 9 VIT 6 PIE 12 Acc build on every slot. VIT and PIE helps a lot and the loss in INT from i90 is a very small difference in DPS. Some pieces already come with Acc so just place the the Acc III with something you prefer.
VIT IV +8
PIE IV +6
Acc III +6
Acc III +6
VIT I +1

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This isn't viable for most people economically.

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Originally Posted by PriyaJugulataris

This isn't viable for most people economically.

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That's true, but like all things it's something you can work towards if it fits your goals.

They're not changing the boots.

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Originally Posted by Seobit

They're not changing the boots.

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Except they are, 'cause they are not that dumb.