melee dps buffs + bard nerf = cumulative effect too much?

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Originally Posted by Akirakogami

Or you could change the dungeon to not require a particular form of cc which most classes do not have access to...

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Not sure what kind of cc you're talking about? Crowd Controls are distributed on multiple classes. I'm not sure if there is a cc that is only locked to 1 class/job.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

...snip...

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The problem is, nearly ALL that extra utility is 99% worthless in 4 man content.
So while it may make up for lower dps in raids, it leaves us short any time there is a DPS requirement in a 4 man.
(Ever tried Demon Wall with 2 ilvl50 geared Bards? Ifrit HM with 4 Bards? Yet the duty finder continues to create these multi-bard groups which will be even MORE impossible after a DPS nerf...)

You can't balance a class entirely around raiding and ignore the rest of the game...
There's got to be a better compromise.

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Originally Posted by Phai

Its just the start, after brd is where ppl want it, then its time to aim at next class to bash on, this is a never ending storry.. And SE is sure as hell gonna follow it up.

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Bard was already where most Bard users wanted it. Only a bunch of jealous crying babies went on a forum rampage until they got the nerf they asked for, aiming the class they are so jealous of. If you ask me, the sad thing is to know that SE does listen to this loud minority.

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Originally Posted by Charas

Bard was already where most Bard users wanted it. Only a bunch of jealous crying babies went on a forum rampage until they got the nerf they asked for, aiming the class they are so jealous of. If you ask me, the sad thing is to know that SE does listen to this loud minority.

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Agree on the point that Brd is at a fine spot atm, utility and a bit lower dps than other dps (coil)
Class Balance for coil has nothing to do whit its dps, and sadly for melee classes and pug grp's i think the cross class tweak will do them no good. All its good for is the satisfaction ppl get from the word nerf.

There is a simple rule when it comes to class balance in every MMO that has come out over the last decade. The class that is perceived by the masses to be the most OP initially (BRD) is always nerfed into the ground and remains at the bottom for a long time. The class that is perceived to be the most UP initially is always buffed (WAR and possible DRG/MNK) into god status and stays there for a long time. Again, this is "perceived" and not what might the actual objective state of balance. Never set your heart on the perceived OP class before the first class balance patch because you will always be disappointed.

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Originally Posted by Bardo

The problem is, nearly ALL that extra utility is 99% worthless in 4 man content.
So while it may make up for lower dps in raids, it leaves us short any time there is a DPS requirement in a 4 man.
(Ever tried Demon Wall with 2 ilvl50 geared Bards? Ifrit HM with 4 Bards? Yet the duty finder continues to create these multi-bard groups which will be even MORE impossible after a DPS nerf...)

You can't balance a class entirely around raiding and ignore the rest of the game...
There's got to be a better compromise.

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I agree with you, the problem is more so the emphasis on 4 man content that is the issue, if the average low man queue was say... 5-6 for example you would have room for a straight support class.

This is why i say BRD is in a awkward position, because as long as DPS race type fights like Demon Wall exist it's always going to be bounced back and forth, either it's DPS will be too high at the cost of support or it's support and utility will be too high at the cost of it's DPS hindering it's spot in a 4 man group.

It cant have too much of both and it cant have not enough of either.

Not saying it cant be balanced it's just hard to find (like you said) a middle ground for a semi-support to keep pace damage wise with full a on DPS class and retain it's utility by nature.

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Originally Posted by Bardo

The problem is, nearly ALL that extra utility is 99% worthless in 4 man content.
So while it may make up for lower dps in raids, it leaves us short any time there is a DPS requirement in a 4 man.
(Ever tried Demon Wall with 2 ilvl50 geared Bards? Ifrit HM with 4 Bards? Yet the duty finder continues to create these multi-bard groups which will be even MORE impossible after a DPS nerf...)

You can't balance a class entirely around raiding and ignore the rest of the game...
There's got to be a better compromise.

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Other classes are requesting balance changes to justify a single spot for their class in a group. You are complaining because 4x BRD (undedrgeared) may not be viable... that's ridiculous. You could make a valid argument for not allowing 4x BRD in duty finder, but that's a duty finder problem not a class balance problem.

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Originally Posted by Charas

Bard was already where most Bard users wanted it. Only a bunch of jealous crying babies went on a forum rampage until they got the nerf they asked for, aiming the class they are so jealous of. If you ask me, the sad thing is to know that SE does listen to this loud minority.

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Quit your crying. Nerf is coming. Deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Mitski

Other classes are requesting balance changes to justify a single spot for their class in a group. You are complaining because 4x BRD (undedrgeared) may not be viable... that's ridiculous. You could make a valid argument for not allowing 4x BRD in duty finder, but that's a duty finder problem not a class balance problem.

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Undergeared? No. NOT overgeared? YES.

I'm sorry, but you're just flat wrong here.
It's a class balance problem.
There are no other DD classes that suffer from the same issue in 4mans.

Making the DF intentionally separate bards (while still allowing multiples of other DD classes) isn't acceptable.
It would take EVEN LONGER to get into DF groups as bard than any other DD.
That is NOT a solution.
Possibly if the DF ignored multiples of every class, but then everyone would probably be in for much longer wait times.

Listen, I'm not trying to say that Bard isn't too strong in raids, or that changes don't need to be made.
All I'm saying is that if you fix one area of the game but make another even worse than it already is, then that's not balance.
If the DF is going to continue to consider Bard to be a DD, and Bard DPS is going to continue to be lower than other DD's to compensate for to Raid support/utility, then they need to make some of that support/utility actually functional in 4 mans as well.
Right now the only real support that can compensate for a lack of damage is Foe, so we would have to be paired with a BLM or SMN. That leaves a lot of group setups short of DD requirements.

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Originally Posted by Songkla

Quit your crying. Nerf is coming. Deal with it.

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I m not crying at all, just writing a true statement, it s definitly accurate to say that at least 90% of the bard users were happy with their class as it was (or still is). Looks like you are annoyed by me, but it s ok you know, i can understand, seeing all your posts in this thread, that once again you are jealous of a Bard. Your tipycal premade answer won t make u appear more clever. You aren t bringing anything to the discussion, have clearly no idea about what you are talking about... what are u doing here anyway?

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Originally Posted by Bardo

*SNIP*

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Yes, I said ilvl50 is undergeared.

The GC weapon (ilvl 55) is obtainable by a fresh 50, and you can run WP before AK which provides gear upgrades and tomes to purchase even better upgrades. Crafted gear is also an option. For some classes (e.g. PLD), the 2-star craft items are actually less philosophy tomes than Darklight, and after you meld it, it will be much better. You can have adequate armor/accessories for Coil before you even attempt AK or Ifirit, and there's no reason to do either without a minimum ilvl55 weapon.

Also, I never said that the duty finder should "intentionally separate bards". My point (which you missed) is that it may be unwise for the duty finder to pair 4x any single class together. Discouraging class stacking is one of the reasons SE is changing BRD in 2.1. So again, while you may have a valid complaint about 2x/4x BRD parties, that is a problem with the duty finder NOT your class.

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Originally Posted by Luso

Not sure what kind of cc you're talking about? Crowd Controls are distributed on multiple classes. I'm not sure if there is a cc that is only locked to 1 class/job.

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apparently bard is the only class with a silence.

all other crowd controls are useless in coil. kinda silly.

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Originally Posted by Akirakogami

apparently bard is the only class with a silence.

all other crowd controls are useless in coil. kinda silly.

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At least 3 classes have silence, without count Selene.

Selene is unreliable, but PLD and BRD can both silence without a DPS loss.

MNK can silence when needed for a small DPS loss.

I would like to point out that the game is still only at level 50 cap. They are eventually going to raise level cap which means new traits, skills, songs to further the suppory role of the brd. And they will probably get some New DPS skills too.

Duty Finder already looks for any job to fill the spot that is different than your own before giving you someone of the same job in an attempt to balance groups out. It isnr as rare to find a 2 bard party in df due to the high amount of people playing bard and using duty finder. If you ever go in as monk or dragoon the odd you will also see another monk or dragoon is severely low except for dead times.

However the design to attempt to seperate bards from each other already exists. There are just far more bards than other DPS classes. Maybe the nerf will cause Bards to move on to other jobs allowing duty finder to compensate better.

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Originally Posted by bayz

Bard is suppose to be support from the first time.and its suppose to be outperformed by other dps class when it comes to dps.they just adjust it to the right track.with all the adjustment which we dont really know yet.we should stop crying like a kid.

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So drgs r just as bad in the game as the forums. Bottom line is bard dps cannot come close right now to where the smart and talented drg players are, bards fall 220ish while pro monks and drgs r near 270. The nerf is completely to cater to the casual QQ community that think of themselves before the group. Ultimately who cares who does more damage as a dps, you are a team start acting like one. Stop having some god mode complex where I must have the highest dps numbers in the game because from all the QQ it is from melee dps not knowing how to play their class and have some made up idea that omg a bard is beating me in dps so not right.
Now more on topic, the problem I see with the nerf is that really you do not even need a bard for anything, it makes it convenient but ultimately pally, monk or selene can purely remove bard from the picture if its already low dps gets cut.

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Originally Posted by WiseWolfHolo

So drgs r just as bad in the game as the forums. Bottom line is bard dps cannot come close right now to where the smart and talented drg players are, bards fall 220ish while pro monks and drgs r near 270. The nerf is completely to cater to the casual QQ community that think of themselves before the group. Ultimately who cares who does more damage as a dps, you are a team start acting like one. Stop having some god mode complex where I must have the highest dps numbers in the game because from all the QQ it is from melee dps not knowing how to play their class and have some made up idea that omg a bard is beating me in dps so not right.
Now more on topic, the problem I see with the nerf is that really you do not even need a bard for anything, it makes it convenient but ultimately pally, monk or selene can purely remove bard from the picture if its already low dps gets cut.

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You have not met a good bard then. Bard easily pushes past most any dps when equally geared, especially in burst damage due to all the buffs to stack.

Why do people get offended and bash others like this person when they know nothing themselves?

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Originally Posted by Mister-Wonderful

You have not met a good bard then. Bard easily pushes past most any dps when equally geared, especially in burst damage due to all the buffs to stack.

Why do people get offended and bash others like this person when they know nothing themselves?

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Not picking a side in this, but your argument is "Your anecdotal evidence doesn't match my anecdotal evidence so you must be misinformed or ignorant."

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Originally Posted by Songkla

Lots of the things on that list don't count. Please, when have you actively had to dodge center golem attacks, Eye of terror, Cad's split attacks, imminent catastrophe, rockslide, etc.

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I have to dodge Eye of Terror on average 2 times per AK, because I'm killing the adds by myself. Rockslide, same thing, I'm likely tanking the add. Cad's spit attacks are a constant of that fight; if you aren't dodging them, your healer hates you. Imminent Catastrophe I dodge 2-3 times a fight usually, because I don't just sit in the boss's circle. Also, I counted, and about 25 of the things I listed can be dodged without leaving melee range.

But please, do go on.

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Originally Posted by Mister-Wonderful

You have not met a good bard then. Bard easily pushes past most any dps when equally geared, especially in burst damage due to all the buffs to stack.

Why do people get offended and bash others like this person when they know nothing themselves?

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Emmm no.
A good bard and a bad one have the same average damage because we don't have one static rotation, so you can have mistakes and it is not going to punish us so much, the problem is that a bad dragoon or monk will be severely punished for mistakes so a bard can completely outdps a bad melee dps. BUT a good one always is about 30-40 points above a Bard equally geared.
The good meless will be godlike when the patch go live, I am happy because the one in my group is really good :3

Its funny that people thing that whining makes a big difference and that they think lots of people where whining about bard.

I was honestly shocked at the monk buff, I didn't think it was needed.

Its funny how people are crying in general. Aside from PvP all classes work together to obtain a certain goal in teams. Now, since the start of this game people have been crying on forums "OH MY DD CLASS ISN'T AS GOOD AS THIS SO AND SO DDS QQ NERF THEM BUFF ME." Perhaps you don't know your rotation, look it up. Bards on average on do less than melee DDs. If you don't believe me check/ask top i90 full crafted/full i90 players to parcer yours must be broken or your melees don't know their rotations. I know teams on my server who were one of the first FC to down twintania and admit their drg or monk basically carries their entire DPS at 250-270. Their bards deal on average about 220-240 WITHOUT popping food/dex pots. Bards are "suppose" to be more support than really a DPS class they are not an archer. I can see them nerfing it perhaps for future classes in plan to put them in a rightful place in the DD line up but right now? Its rather silly since they are last.

Double post limit is silly:

What is even more pathetic is you all fighting about it because you want the biggest e-penor possible. I don't wish them to trash the bard class if they nerf it and when they do in 2.1 I hope it isn't drastic to put bards into one of the most un-wanted classes around would just be nonsense. If your statement falls under the crying annoyance that is "NO ONE WANTS MY DRG IN COIL ;_;" You are wrong and need more friends. :< I feel bad for you.

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Originally Posted by AunaYuuki

Double post limit is silly:

What is even more pathetic is you all fighting about it because you want the biggest e-penor possible. I don't wish them to trash the bard class if they nerf it and when they do in 2.1 I hope it isn't drastic to put bards into one of the most un-wanted classes around would just be nonsense. If your statement falls under the crying annoyance that is "NO ONE WANTS MY DRG IN COIL ;_;" You are wrong and need more friends. :< I feel bad for you.

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I really don't think so, I without bfb have a good dps, not the best but I parse very well. The problem is if they remove internal release, it will break our principal source of damage that are the BL Procs and we will lose about 30-40 points of dps only with that...

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Originally Posted by Leon_Stormrage

I really don't think so, I without bfb have a good dps, not the best but I parse very well. The problem is if they remove internal release, it will break our principal source of damage that are the BL Procs and we will lose about 30-40 points of dps only with that...

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But they wont or they would have to change your level 15 requirement class for the job.

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Originally Posted by Leon_Stormrage

snip snip

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Hopefully it isn't going to force people to play a DD they don't really like. I really hate seeing so many people at each others throats because a certain class is pulling off more DD then them which in the end game world they shouldn't and crying about it like 12 year old children. Hopefully the nerf is something small I don't want bards to even loose BFB regardless if it isn't such a huge deal because it'll still cut them down when the new monk GL gets buffed and they can pull off 280+. I feel people want bards because of their overall support qualities anyhow it isn't really about their DD output entirely, but individuals want to at least be in ranking for DD because it is important especially with mechanics like Heart/nails/twintanias last bit of HP etc.

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Originally Posted by Etgar

But they wont or they would have to change your level 15 requirement class for the job.

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I am positive on it too, but one never know what is in the SE minds when they start to think in changes D: haha

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Originally Posted by AunaYuuki

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Yep, I agree with you. It's not sense cry for the Nerf of one person that will be your party member because the Nerf on a bard will be a Nerf to the whole party. I know that it is because the most of the pug groups were staking bards to make the things "easier" but this is not a problem with the bard, it is a big problem with the fight mechanics and I think that it is a problem that needs to be addressed. I always say the same in my post but, the persons that don't have a melee dps in his group is losing a lot of dps, a Lot!

Exactly. People want Bard because of the support utilities and for WPSR. In anything that concerns mob and people wants it fast, AoE is of course preferred, kinda no-brainer. I rather SE make DRG and MNK more useable.

It's pretty lame to go on the nerf path - SE is going to add more and more content and contents with greater difficulty, it would be better for everyone to think what changes to make to make each job able to bring more to the table, instead of taking things away from the table.

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Originally Posted by Leon_Stormrage

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100% true. Our group for coil does take two bards for t2, but many groups have one switch out to monk or dragoon for the other turns. Only DD class I kind of pity in coil now is summoner its hard to take more than one to t5 it is possible but have to have the right combined DDs to take down the conflags. I know a group who takes almost full melees to all turns but t2. At the end of the day as a community, FC, LS, friends we all work together as a combined party so why does it matter if a bard is out DDing you by 5 damage? His gear could be better or his tactics in playing overall. I think people complaining a lot of their lower DD issues can be easily fixed by trying different combos and learning from other players. I think every group should take a melee DD as well at least one even two! If they are great players with great dodging skill their DD will blow everything away.

I still think they'll be tossing out LNC skills altogether and giving ACN skills instead. Not saying I want that to happen (was pretty painful leveling LNC for B4B...) but it's something that makes sense to me. They want to lower BRD DPS and, presumably, raise their supporting nature in its stead. ACN fits perfectly in that line of thought with Eye for an Eye, non-trait restricted in-battle Resurrection, Virus, and Physick. But we'll see on the 17th!

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

-snip-.

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Agreed. I feel monks should add something more to the party their DD is great but their silencing rotation is demanding. If they had just a silence would be more party helping friendly. DRG has piercing debuff but their jumps are rather....stupid and inconvenient making some of their skills not useful. I'd rather them get fixed then bard nerfed because people are crying and it might be the easiest way to "fix" things. People shouldn't be at each others thoats like they are its just crazy.

The carebear in me had to post this. *u*

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/i/20...26-d56sivk.jpg

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Originally Posted by AunaYuuki

Agreed. I feel monks should add something more to the party their DD is great but their silencing rotation is demanding. If they had just a silence would be more party helping friendly. DRG has piercing debuff but their jumps are rather....stupid and inconvenient making some of their skills not useful. I'd rather them get fixed then bard nerfed because people are crying and it might be the easiest way to "fix" things. People shouldn't be at each others thoats like they are its just crazy.

The carebear in me had to post this. *u*

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/i/20...26-d56sivk.jpg

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Give them something to do with their MANA. Maybe change MNK's silence to pure silence using MP. It's kinda silly to me, like every job has something to use MP for but MNK and DRG??

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

Give them something to do with their MANA. Maybe change MNK's silence to pure silence using MP. It's kinda silly to me, like every job has something to use MP for but MNK and DRG??

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MNK Fist abilities used to drain MP but apparently don't anymore. They also have the old 1.0 buff text still (like defense vs damage taken, skill speed vs movement speed) so maybe they'll bring that feature back! WAR doesn't use MP either to my knowledge but I might be forgetting something. Could easily make Dragonfire Dive use MP. Only problem I see with adding MP to these skills would be having to repurpose them or increase their DPS for their now limited use. MP restores at 2% of your maximum so it's a constant. If DD were to cost a lot of MP they might not make it back in time for the recast timer. Or, MNK's Fist abilities could wear off like a BRD song. They'd probably have to greatly increase their effects or make it worth the downtime while MP regenerates.

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Originally Posted by Charas

I m not crying at all, just writing a true statement, it s definitly accurate to say that at least 90% of the bard users were happy with their class as it was (or still is). Looks like you are annoyed by me, but it s ok you know, i can understand, seeing all your posts in this thread, that once again you are jealous of a Bard. Your tipycal premade answer won t make u appear more clever. You aren t bringing anything to the discussion, have clearly no idea about what you are talking about... what are u doing here anyway?

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Well of course 90% of brds are happy. Brds bring too much to the table. If they made any other class the same, they would be happy too.
Brds have too much utility in coil, but as you've probably never been, i guess you wouldn't know. Your pre-coil arguments are invalid.

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Originally Posted by Songkla

Well of course 90% of brds are happy. Brds bring too much to the table. If they made any other class the same, they would be happy too.
Brds have too much utility in coil, but as you've probably never been, i guess you wouldn't know. Your pre-coil arguments are invalid.

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About 3 minutes of searching tells me that he's done Coils 1-3 successfully. Ad hominem attacks are even weaker when they aren't true. >_>

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Originally Posted by Songkla

Well of course 90% of brds are happy. Brds bring too much to the table. If they made any other class the same, they would be happy too.
Brds have too much utility in coil, but as you've probably never been, i guess you wouldn't know. Your pre-coil arguments are invalid.

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OMG u posted again \o/ !!!
So you say, Bards bring too much to the table? right, i do really really believe you should start to level and equip an archer class! I can smell jealousy here... and you have nothing to back it up really as what you said makes no sense. And i already told u... premade answers like "u ve never been on coil blahblah" and such really won t make u appear more clever.

You could say WHM / Scholar bring too much to the table, as you do have to bring 2 healers in coil... And same goes for tanks, especially PLD who are so easy to heal and have interrupts (poor warriors)... But Bards they are just another DPS class really. The only reasons Bards are used in coil is to back up PLD silence and to use 1 or 2 mana song on turn 4 if Healers fail to manage their mp properly and turn 5, still for mp song. You can completly clear turn 1 2 (3 lol) without having a bard in your party, most of the parties still NEED 1 Bard for turn 4 and 5 tho... but 1 only. If ppl stack Bards it s their choice but in no way it is requiered.

The worst thing is, i believe, that all that comes from a dragoon! Not saying that you have a large amount of utility for the party, but you do offer a nice dps + a needed DPS limit break + a buff to Bard s damage. Every classes have something to offer and work in synergy, you just seem to fail seeing it, a lot of ppl do.

You should really enjoy ur class, coz it s not all that bad, or try to roll another one.

A DPS increase and DPS LB that aren't necessary at all.

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Originally Posted by Tilgung

The issue being that even with DRG and MNK having their damage increased, Coil is still currently doable with Bard stacking. Even on DPS checks, having a couple bards isn't detrimental. And those Bards have great utility/ease of play that's going to favor them over others. Reducing BRD DPS might possibly force some hands and encourage groups to take another heavier DPS instead of double BRD.

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Bards are the safe option. They're not the best, but they're far more idiot proof than any other DPS class. And that means people are going to want them during their initial runs into Coil and in PUG groups.

EDIT: Enjoy your class? Clearly they are or they'd have jumped onto the FotM class already.