SQUARE-ENIX, remember not to marginalise crafters

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Originally Posted by Verecund

You know what really screws crafters? Me buying out crystals and selling them at marginally higher prices.

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You are aware how easy it is to make crystal/shards right?

I'm not leveling my crafting/gathering classes for myself. But to be a helpful member of the community (like ppl should have done) Many crafters only did it to be self sufficant or to make gil. Which wasn't the point of it. A true community has those who fight, those who gather and those who craft. Most mmorpg are based around the "dark ages". Where we had hunters gather food for the town, where chefs make the food to feed others. I enjoy crafting as classes. Just players need to get out of the current mindset for a more community based one.
SE was NOT at fault here. It was the players who became stuck up and didn't think on terms of community.

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Originally Posted by Bloodlotus

You complain about the amount of crafting in the game, but if you look beyond the inconvenience you believe it causes you can see the system actually makes sense.

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Again, crafting helped contribute to FF14's bad reputation since that's all there was to do, for the most part. And the majority of MMO players don't seem to like crafting over combat. It's not just me, SE admitted, to the crafting inconveniences. That's why they are simplifying certain recipes and such.

Been here since Alpha. I know it makes sense at a glance, but i also know it's more annoying than it should be.
Especially if you're the kind of person who advocates crafters being "classes". The very idea of relying heavily on other crafts just to level up is inconvenient when considering the gathering as well.
I'm not saying some things shouldn't cross over. It's just that most recipes require something like 2-3 other crafted items. In turn, those items may require 2-3 other crafts to create just another material. This is terribly inconvenient no matter how much sense it makes.

This tends to lead to the "this isn't real life, it's a fantasy game" argument.
Where some things in real life make sense, they shouldn't always be in games. etc etc

This isn't to say everything should be easy-mode & handed to everyone. It's just that FF14 is, generally, slow & there are better ways of handling these kinds of annoyances.

wow a lot of crafter haters here.

You really think that you are better than crafters? Guess what crafting minigame is a battle mini game reskined. You have accuracy, critical hits, critical fails, HP, mob hp skills you can use in battle. Not only that but its a fight where they rate your performance, and can give you better items. Your gear selection effects your results, and you skill choices.

People get statisfaction out of beating the tougher synths in the game and getting HQ items, just as you enjoy killing a big NM. If you dont like crafting you dont have to do it, you can just pay the npc to repair all your items, the only factor at all, is people saying that crafters being able to do the main storyline make it easy, buuuut not exactly. in the actual missions, you can either choose to fight it out, or parley usually. So really what crafters cause, is the main storyline having you look gimp in the cutscenes. They should really have at least two roles for the cutscenes, crafter and not crafter. It would be even better if they just seperated the story lines out.

The game would not be better without crafters, and there really is a lot of people who enjoy crafting in this game.

Someone asked how crafting is different from FFXI, in this game your crafting is influenced by your choice of weapon, your choice of gear, your ability to adapt to a tough synth. In this game you control your chances of getting rare items. Its essentially the difference from a game where you roll one die, and it says you win, or you didnt win, and the battle system from most mmos.

Really yall should focus on improving the game, not on destroying why other people enjoy the game.

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Originally Posted by AdaraaKatsumi

So you play a Gladiator and want to fight NMs with your friends, cool. Have fun getting a +3 weapon or armor drop from the NMs.

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Why not ?, other MMO's do it just fine.

Although what does it matter when an NM can drop much better gear than anything that could be crafted anyway.

Part the reason of doing instance and raid dungeons is to get new shiny gear isn't it ?

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Why not ?, other MMO's do it just fine.

Although what does it matter when an NM can drop much better gear than anything that could be crafted anyway.

Part the reason of doing instance and raid dungeons is to get new shiny gear isn't it ?

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this same line of thinking is like saying since pug and gladiator does less damage than thm and arc we should marginalize them and let them get nothing better that crap gear and weapons. who cares if the lancer and mrd had r50 weapons and gear and a pug and gld has nothing above r30 of either.

the same line of thinking is all throughout this game in that if it is not the one thing someone is doing specifically they could care less if what other people are doing is taken away.

just remember part of the reason for being a crafter is to make that shiny gear for your friends and ls mates.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Why not ?, other MMO's do it just fine.

Although what does it matter when an NM can drop much better gear than anything that could be crafted anyway.

Part the reason of doing instance and raid dungeons is to get new shiny gear isn't it ?

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It matters that you must be ignorant to know that Aeolian Scimitar +3 or Mosshorn Scalemail +3 just don't happen to be dropping from NMs. You need crafters to make your new shiny gear and to balance out the DoW/DoH is that the mats for some if it come from the NMs. Apparently you disrespect the craft of those that help you get your "precious" items.

I've tried my best to avoid adding to this 'discussion', but here goes nothing :

1) "How could a weaver bring down the Empire?"

Ex: Many assassins were sent after the Garlean Emperor, for the rulers of the city-states knew that without him, his generals would squabble amongst themselves over the reins of power, this giving them the time to catch up technologically. However, all efforts were in vain, until the "Legendary Moonlight Weaver" succeeded in finally creating the epic Robe of Moonbeams by spinning the moonlight. Armed with the Robe, an assassin was finally able to penetrate the previously impossible security to assassinate the Emperor, and thus the Empire was tumbled.

It's not that hard to come up with ways for crafters / gatherers to influence grand events.

2) Combat is more fun

Let me point out that some people enjoy playing Sudoku, some people enjoy playing chess, and some people enjoy playing paintball. These are all equally valid forms of enjoyment -- but different people have different preferences. Yet no one says "let's eliminate paintball" because chess is "funner".

To my mind, crafting is more about puzzle solving, while gathering satisfies those that prefer exploration. Battle, as is usual, satisfies those that crave conflict.

Each of the paths - combat, crafting, and gathering cater to different playstyles / preferences.

3) Crafting is boring while combat is fun

All (crafting, gathering, combat) consist of highly repetitive, and somewhat engaging gameplay. The goal is to make little numbers go up (SP, XP, marks, etc), get better gear that allows one to perform said tasks better (whether it's a +3 Aeolian Scimitar or a +3 Iron Dolabra, a +3 Vintage Hauby or a Dodore Doublet). The goal is to find challenges and to overcome them.

All of the classes have the same TYPE of progression and engagement mechanism, at least in theory.

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All of the classes suffer from a lack of engaging game play. There aren't battle encounters that are fun and engaging, most of them are annoying easy and/or highly repetitive, scaling up until monsters one-shot party AoE party members with TP abilities. There isn't a group crafting mechanism, or particularly epic crafts, since crafting recipes end at rank 50. There also isn't a group gathering mechanic, nor NM-quality gathering nodes or something similar, as (botany and mining at least) stop at grade 5 points, which is approximately rank 43.

All the classes need improving of their game play. Battle actually has it the best currently, since there are enemies up to rank 99, yet battle is being reworked first. Even if you are a player that does not enjoy the game-style of crafting or gathering, please please PLEASE recognize that there are those people that do them, and would like to see the innovative vision in the game reach full fruition.

I don't know where this thread came from especially considering that today the Company page was updated and it clearly mentioned crafters and gatherers partaking in the dungeon content. Looks like to me they're giving us the best of both worlds - the battle classes will still be rewarded with finished gear and the crafting class will still be very useful with the gear that still needs to be synthesized and the materia system...dunno about you guys, but I don't even craft and I'm excited about that.

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Originally Posted by Kuroguma

I believe if SE removed crafting all together and marginalized repairing at NPC's they would lose only 1-2% of their current subscriptions yet they would gain more than 10% of those who have already quit.

My question to people who craft is why do you craft? What is your goal? . . . [Blah Blah Blah] . . .
Please GTFO.

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I suggest not repairing this person's gear on your server if you ever run into him.

This whole "dungeons should drop crafting mats" arguement brings up another issue.

If the dungeons drop materials, this "shiny gear" will have to be tradeable. Will I be going into dungeons on my CON for caster gear only to be rolled against on it by a jerk who can't even use the gear that these materials produce because he wants to sell the gear? Or even the mats? Will the drops be untradeable? Hmm...

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Originally Posted by Nikita

This whole "dungeons should drop crafting mats" arguement brings up another issue.

If the dungeons drop materials, this "shiny gear" will have to be tradeable. Will I be going into dungeons on my CON for caster gear only to be rolled against on it by a jerk who can't even use the gear that these materials produce because he wants to sell the gear? Or even the mats? Will the drops be untradeable? Hmm...

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Which if this is the case for open world NM's then we go back to people with claim bot's farming them for gill.

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

I'm not leveling my crafting/gathering classes for myself. But to be a helpful member of the community (like ppl should have done) Many crafters only did it to be self sufficant or to make gil. Which wasn't the point of it. A true community has those who fight, those who gather and those who craft. Most mmorpg are based around the "dark ages". Where we had hunters gather food for the town, where chefs make the food to feed others. I enjoy crafting as classes. Just players need to get out of the current mindset for a more community based one.
SE was NOT at fault here. It was the players who became stuck up and didn't think on terms of community.

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Ah! So it was you who visited Saronia for a little while. I wish you had told me who you were. ^^

Anyway, just as there is no right or wrong reason to fight monsters, there's no right or wrong reason to craft or gather -- be it self-sufficiency, making money, or being helpful to the community.

I started so I would be able to repair my own equipment. Once I got to a level where I could actually make things that people wanted, that is where the real fun began and I now get my greatest pleasure from making items that friends request. A side effect of crafting was making enough gil to never have to worry about it (through selling in the markets -- I don't like to take money from friends).


I'm glad FF14 has such a developed crafting and gathering system. But fully accept that it is not for everyone.

There is a lot of anti-crafting sentiment here on the forum, but fortunately in-game (at least what I can see) feelings are a lot more balanced.

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Originally Posted by Nikita

This whole "dungeons should drop crafting mats" arguement brings up another issue.

If the dungeons drop materials, this "shiny gear" will have to be tradeable. Will I be going into dungeons on my CON for caster gear only to be rolled against on it by a jerk who can't even use the gear that these materials produce because he wants to sell the gear? Or even the mats? Will the drops be untradeable? Hmm...

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I think that this is a fundamental design issue that SE will need to correct at some point.

The first set of NMs dropped materials for crafting, which of necessity was trade-able, thus leading to farming etc. Except that in this case, the gear wasn't all that great, so the farming quickly dropped off.

The second set of NMs dropped unique / untradable gear, thus reducing the camping and its subsequent problems, but in order for the gear to be useful, had to be finish gear, thus marginalizing the craft / gather segment of the population and leading to the issue of "which gear is better?"

Ultimately, I'd propose a system in which the materials are drops yet unique / untradable, and adding a system where a crafter can create items using another player's materials, similar to the seek item function. This is kind of clunky and probably would be pretty hated, though, so it's not really the best solution.

Another alternative is to have these rare/unique drops come from Grand Company - specific missions, and the results are automatically stored in the company vault, where crafters undertake 'missions' to turn these materials into the rare and wonderful items. Players would earn company marks by completing various company missions (all class types) and would then exchange these marks for the final goods. This also allows rare materials gathered from NMs to be used in craft / gather gear as well as battle gear, while minimizing the 'camping' issue.

My ½ cent

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Originally Posted by Mikita

Ah! So it was you who visited Saronia for a little while. I wish you had told me who you were. ^^

Anyway, just as there is no right or wrong reason to fight monsters, there's no right or wrong reason to craft or gather -- be it self-sufficiency, making money, or being helpful to the community.

I started so I would be able to repair my own equipment. Once I got to a level where I could actually make things that people wanted, that is where the real fun began and I now get my greatest pleasure from making items that friends request. A side effect of crafting was making enough gil to never have to worry about it (through selling in the markets -- I don't like to take money from friends).


I'm glad FF14 has such a developed crafting and gathering system. But fully accept that it is not for everyone.

There is a lot of anti-crafting sentiment here on the forum, but fortunately in-game (at least what I can see) feelings are a lot more balanced.

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they hate you ingame too, they just using you for your craftins! heh jk sorta. buts its amazing how much closet crafting hate there is here.

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Originally Posted by Amineri

I think that this is a fundamental design issue that SE will need to correct at some point.

The first set of NMs dropped materials for crafting, which of necessity was trade-able, thus leading to farming etc. Except that in this case, the gear wasn't all that great, so the farming quickly dropped off.

The second set of NMs dropped unique / untradable gear, thus reducing the camping and its subsequent problems, but in order for the gear to be useful, had to be finish gear, thus marginalizing the craft / gather segment of the population and leading to the issue of "which gear is better?"

Ultimately, I'd propose a system in which the materials are drops yet unique / untradable, and adding a system where a crafter can create items using another player's materials, similar to the seek item function. This is kind of clunky and probably would be pretty hated, though, so it's not really the best solution.

Another alternative is to have these rare/unique drops come from Grand Company - specific missions, and the results are automatically stored in the company vault, where crafters undertake 'missions' to turn these materials into the rare and wonderful items. Players would earn company marks by completing various company missions (all class types) and would then exchange these marks for the final goods. This also allows rare materials gathered from NMs to be used in craft / gather gear as well as battle gear, while minimizing the 'camping' issue.

My ½ cent

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i think they are going to add something where the crafter can craft from other items, or else how is the materia system going to work properly. But really, not everything is going to be unique, some of it is going to be money items, the fact that you can get it in a dunegeon means you will probably make your agreements about the drops before it happens.

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Originally Posted by Amineri

I've tried my best to avoid adding to this 'discussion', but here goes nothing :

1) "How could a weaver bring down the Empire?"

Ex: Many assassins were sent after the Garlean Emperor, for the rulers of the city-states knew that without him, his generals would squabble amongst themselves over the reins of power, this giving them the time to catch up technologically. However, all efforts were in vain, until the "Legendary Moonlight Weaver" succeeded in finally creating the epic Robe of Moonbeams by spinning the moonlight. Armed with the Robe, an assassin was finally able to penetrate the previously impossible security to assassinate the Emperor, and thus the Empire was tumbled.

It's not that hard to come up with ways for crafters / gatherers to influence grand events.

2) Combat is more fun

Let me point out that some people enjoy playing Sudoku, some people enjoy playing chess, and some people enjoy playing paintball. These are all equally valid forms of enjoyment -- but different people have different preferences. Yet no one says "let's eliminate paintball" because chess is "funner".

To my mind, crafting is more about puzzle solving, while gathering satisfies those that prefer exploration. Battle, as is usual, satisfies those that crave conflict.

Each of the paths - combat, crafting, and gathering cater to different playstyles / preferences.

3) Crafting is boring while combat is fun

All (crafting, gathering, combat) consist of highly repetitive, and somewhat engaging gameplay. The goal is to make little numbers go up (SP, XP, marks, etc), get better gear that allows one to perform said tasks better (whether it's a +3 Aeolian Scimitar or a +3 Iron Dolabra, a +3 Vintage Hauby or a Dodore Doublet). The goal is to find challenges and to overcome them.

All of the classes have the same TYPE of progression and engagement mechanism, at least in theory.

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All of the classes suffer from a lack of engaging game play. There aren't battle encounters that are fun and engaging, most of them are annoying easy and/or highly repetitive, scaling up until monsters one-shot party AoE party members with TP abilities. There isn't a group crafting mechanism, or particularly epic crafts, since crafting recipes end at rank 50. There also isn't a group gathering mechanic, nor NM-quality gathering nodes or something similar, as (botany and mining at least) stop at grade 5 points, which is approximately rank 43.

All the classes need improving of their game play. Battle actually has it the best currently, since there are enemies up to rank 99, yet battle is being reworked first. Even if you are a player that does not enjoy the game-style of crafting or gathering, please please PLEASE recognize that there are those people that do them, and would like to see the innovative vision in the game reach full fruition.

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I love the well written and well thought out post, but you got a like for using the word "funner." Well done.

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Originally Posted by Physic

they hate you ingame too, they just using you for your craftins! heh jk sorta. buts its amazing how much closet crafting hate there is here.

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Haha! ^^

Unfortunately it's not even "closet" crafting hate -- it's rather open hate. ^^;

I belong to 2 medium/large Linkshells and almost everyone has a high rank crafting or gathering class, or two or three, which they actually enjoy. But that's balanced against those same people also having high rank battle classes as well.

A lot of the game is designed around letting people find their own path to enjoyment and building up their character in the way they like.

Too bad many people forget that having diversity is what makes a world vibrant.

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Originally Posted by Physic

i think they are going to add something where the crafter can craft from other items, or else how is the materia system going to work properly. But really, not everything is going to be unique, some of it is going to be money items, the fact that you can get it in a dunegeon means you will probably make your agreements about the drops before it happens.

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As to the materia system, I thought that the crafters would actually create materia physically, otherwise it is just enhanting an item basically. If they created physical items, they could sell them to players and the players would apply them directly to their gear. This also let's them sell materia while offline.

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Originally Posted by Physic

wow a lot of crafter haters here.
Really yall should focus on improving the game, not on destroying why other people enjoy the game.

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Agreed, it seems most of the hate here is coming from people who don't like crafting. Just because person A doesn't like to craft and thinks its pointless doesn't mean person B feels the same. I love crafting, helping people that need things and repairing stuff. Not every crafts for their own selfish reason or just to repair their own stuff or make money.

I actually don't really make any money because I make stuff for my shell, and repair stuff for little gil because I just want to help people. So seeing people put down crafter's, who for the most part want to help people like them, and say that crafter's are less because they aren't fighters like them seems rude to me.

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Originally Posted by Physic

they hate you ingame too, they just using you for your craftins! heh jk sorta. buts its amazing how much closet crafting hate there is here.

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Noone on Saronia hates Mikita... She's like a ray of sunshine in a cold dark world.

I like crafting....to a point, but I dislike the speed at which I level compared to my combat classes.

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Originally Posted by KaiKatzchen

Agreed, it seems most of the hate here is coming from people who don't like crafting. Just because person A doesn't like to craft and thinks its pointless doesn't mean person B feels the same. I love crafting, helping people that need things and repairing stuff. Not every crafts for their own selfish reason or just to repair their own stuff or make money.

I actually don't really make any money because I make stuff for my shell, and repair stuff for little gil because I just want to help people. So seeing people put down crafter's, who for the most part want to help people like them, and say that crafter's are less because they aren't fighters like them seems rude to me.

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Kai you know me, I am always trying to help you out when I can with either moss, alumen, or wings of whatever you need. You are truly valued and these jerks who think that crafters are crap, I hope the crafters that read these forums are reading these threads to stop doing repairs on their gear so that they have to wait a long time for repairs and/or get expensive somewhat repairs to their gear.

After reading several post here, i'm sad to see people putting down DoH or DoL and the hate that DoH and DoL have gathered. Personally to me i think that DoW, DoH and DoL are all important in their different aspect. By the way it works, i see the different type of discipline helping out each other and this add to the "fun" factor of the game and increases the amount of interaction in the community.

Yes any of the discipline of DoW or DoM can fight but without the support of DoH, everyone will be wearing outleved gear which is worn out too due to no repair from DoH. Have you ever tried repairing your gear at the Repair Npc? It cost much more than being repaired by a DoH. For example, repairing a vintage robe can easily cost you more than 10k @ the repair npc but instead of doing that you can find any weaver which they will kindly to do that for just 1k and trust me they don't do it for the gils but rather they do it out of good-will.

This in turn leads to discipline of DoH needing DoL to rank up to a certain rank to make/repair the gear. Having DoL around is needed as this is the time which the discipline of DoL comes in by providing the discipline of DoH with the neccessary materials for both ranking up and making/repairing of equipment.

So guys although you might prefer DoW over all others discipline. Try to see things in a light and learn to appreciate the good of both the discipline of DoH and DoL and the amount of effort that they had put in. Lastly i'm sorry about the amount of wordings but this is my personal experience after all the time spend in ff14.

Signing Off~
Ana

DoH and DoL do need to have some changes made to them, but I do love them and will continue to prepare for my PS3 launch starter shop in the mean time.

I would like to see:

DoL Main Storyline Missions
DoH Main Storyline Missions
DoW/DoM Main Storyline Missions

This makes much more sense to me. Also the added content by splitting them would be more interesting as well.

main story content for a crafting or gathering class would not really make much sense

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Originally Posted by Kailea_Nagisa

main story content for a crafting or gathering class would not really make much sense

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You don't make any sense, please elaborate.

What now? Hate on gatherer next??

You guys are a bunch of d-bags and need to get a life, this game is not WOW, this is FFXIV and it has a more complex community style of gaming, everyone has their own jobs to do.

Just like "make love not warcraft"

how about "make ffXIV not WOW"


Goodbye!

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Originally Posted by AdaraaKatsumi

You don't make any sense, please elaborate.

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Well for instance, the main story for each city, progressing through it as a crafter or gatherer does not make sense. I would like to see more quests and things done for crating and gathering classes, but being part of the main story just does not fit

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Originally Posted by Kailea_Nagisa

Well for instance, the main story for each city, progressing through it as a crafter or gatherer does not make sense. I would like to see more quests and things done for crating and gathering classes, but being part of the main story just does not fit

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Crafters should be able to particpate in the main story... as a leecher with a full party of friends doing all the work for them.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

Crafters should be able to particpate in the main story... as a leecher with a full party of friends doing all the work for them.

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LOL now this I don't agree with. I agree that Crafters should have as much of a role as possible in the game and don't let them just be some side thing... but now you just talking crazy.

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Originally Posted by KaiKatzchen

LOL now this I don't agree with. I agree that Crafters should have as much of a role as possible in the game and don't let them just be some side thing... but now you just talking crazy.

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Well it's better than the other two options. 1) exluding crafters from content or 2)making content that panders to helpless crafters.

SE should just make challenging story-scenario content for DoW classes, but they should also make it possible so that crafters can participate too if the crafter has a high level DoW friend to do all the work for him.

I dont see how that's game breaking

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

Well it's better than the other two options. 1) exluding crafters from content or 2)making content that panders to helpless crafters.

SE should just make challenging story-scenario content for DoW classes, but they should also make it possible so that crafters can participate too if the crafter has a high level DoW friend to do all the work for him.

I dont see how that's game breaking

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PARTICIPATE, yes... Leech and let everyone do the work for you, no. Those are two totally different things.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

Crafters should be able to particpate in the main story... as a leecher with a full party of friends doing all the work for them.

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Go ahead and inform us of why you think that way. Please give us three good reasons and strong supporting facts to think why we should think that crafters are leechers.

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Originally Posted by AdaraaKatsumi

Go ahead and inform us of why you think that way. Please give us three good reasons and strong supporting facts to think why we should think that crafters are leechers.

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First of all, make sense!

Second of all, I wasn't saying crafters are leechers, I was merely suggesting a way to make a compelling Main Scenario questline without excluding crafters.

As long as crafters are not combatants, main scenario quests will never have combat as a focal point. I feel like this limits the story-telling devices. Well, at the very least, it places one limitation on the story-telling.

Therefore, why not focus exclusively on making the scenario quests for DoW and DoM, and then if a DoH or DoL needs to do a story quest, they can simply petition their DoW or DoM friends to help them (i.e. they can leech).

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

First of all, make sense!

Second of all, I wasn't saying crafters are leechers, I was merely suggesting a way to make a compelling Main Scenario questline without excluding crafters.

As long as crafters are not combatants, main scenario quests will never have combat as a focal point. I feel like this limits the story-telling devices. Well, at the very least, it places one limitation on the story-telling.

Therefore, why not focus exclusively on making the scenario quests for DoW and DoM, and then if a DoH or DoL needs to do a story quest, they can simply petition their DoW or DoM friends to help them (i.e. they can leech).

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I see that you fail in your response here in your response to my post, so what makes you think that your rant is going to change the minds of the Devs? Stop crying to me and be suggestive to the Devs. Cry all you want to me, I have a deaf ear to you.

sorry i don't want to waste 5000000k on mats then ask a craft to make it then he/she broke it :) am better off paying 5000000k for just the item :)

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Originally Posted by AdaraaKatsumi

I see that you fail in your response here in your response to my post, so what makes you think that your rant is going to change the minds of the Devs? Stop crying to me and be suggestive to the Devs. Cry all you want to me, I have a deaf ear to you.

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I think he's being dead serious and I agree with him.

MMOs are about a lot of things, but usually the focus is the battles, and by letting non-combat classes participate they had to dumb it down to allow them to progress. Which isn't a very good idea.

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Originally Posted by Corrderio

I think he's being dead serious and I agree with him.

MMOs are about a lot of things, but usually the focus is the battles, and by letting non-combat classes participate they had to dumb it down to allow them to progress. Which isn't a very good idea.

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battle content is dumbed down to cater for crafters who dont actually play it? Or you mean the main scenario questline, which you can choose to fight or parley if you cant. Dont blame crafting for poor battle content. Blame developers for making it easymode.