Legit Players Banned/Punished due to RMT *FOR DUMMIES: A GUIDE*

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jacotto

I don't think you live in the same reality as I do, there are loads of people who plead guilty and go to prison every day. What a distraction, can we get back on topic?

---

We are on topic , a Very popular one at that , not my fault that not all agree with you :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aenarion

Oh god, not this again...

Opportunity Cost, go google it and learn what it means. Manually gathering the item yourself does not change the market value of said item.

---

You are the one treating a virtual economy from an mmo like a real world economy. In the real world there are rules and regulations to govern everything in an economy and whole organizations to police it. There is nothing like that in this game. There could be a thousand of one item from different people on the AH at 20k gil and one person comes along and sets their price at 200k. Then he could get his buddy to buy it for that much. As soon as someone sees that everyone starts putting that thing up for 200k just because ONE sold for that much. The other thousand are still there. There was no supply and demand just someone trying to manipulate the market in a game. I have seen it a thousand times.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Overon

No we live in a world where we break laws , by Reality or Imaginary(Fantasy/Games) and then when caught we go on rants claiming we are innocent .

I personally think MMO companies should itemize a List for all to see on every Banned/Suspended Character , that way we can all know what cheaters they are !

Edit: If we had that we could all look up So and SO "I am Innocent" and copy and paste their Skeletons and post them in threads like these !

---

Sure, but I think it'd also be a good idea to create a list for terrble posters, that way we can see in advance whose posts are worthless.

FYI, I don't RMT, I was not suspended, nor did I lose any of my gil, and I still think your posts are terrible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Overon

We are on topic , a Very popular one at that , not my fault that not all agree with you :(

---

She's actually disagreeing with someone making a bad point. You're wrong, this isn't an opinion you have, this is an inflammatory remark you're making to purposefully disagree to cause problems.

It *IS* your fault for being incorrect, and I think you might be better off logging off from the forums as your toxic way of speaking is not worthwhile nor wanted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sadebreth

Snip.

---

^ another good point
Not all of these suspensions were about RMT either I bet .
People who slam up the Prices are hurting the Economy and forcing the weak to buy Gil to afford over priced Mats .
No its not their fault for the Weak but they know for sure they are going to get paid and that pay they pick to ignore it comes from most of the time Illegal Gil.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lucroarna

She's actually disagreeing with someone making a bad point. You're wrong, this isn't an opinion you have, this is an inflammatory remark you're making to purposefully disagree to cause problems.

It *IS* your fault for being incorrect, and I think you might be better off logging off from the forums as your toxic way of speaking is not worthwhile nor wanted.

---

Another issue "Entitlement"
Because I do not believe the garbage being posted and threaded spam like , "I better log off from the forums" , sorry master , I did not know you owned them or had more rights than me :(

To keep server economies from blowing up, SE has every right to remove any gil that may have acquired via RMT services.

To put up a possible hypothetical let us assume that Player A is a legit player. They play by the rules. They put up an item they've farmed/produced onto the AH. It ends up purchased by Player B, a person who bought gil from an RMT service. So, rather than permanently banning the account of Player A, SE, instead, removes the gil that Player A acquired from Player B.

As frustrating as it is, I would rather have ill-gotten gil, be it from RMT, dupes or hacks, be removed from game instead of continuing to circulate and inflating the server economy to catastrophic levels. Nobody wants to be "that guy on the server with the horrible in-game economy".

The Subject was never changed , it was an example directly linked in the thinking of this thread .
So and so is punished by breaking the rules................"I am innocent blah blah poor me"

Right on Topic , just not what you wanted to read.

From my undestanding, SE has said to all banned players that they will gladly accept requests for appeals to perform a more depth investigation of any accounts that claim to have been wrongly punished, and if these accounts are found innocent then they will be compensated for whatever time/gil they lost.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lucroarna

I am not a player who has been banned, but I think this is ridiculous and the worst way I've seen an MMO handle RMT. There are better ways.

---

I agree, and I reckon that most on these forums will also. If you feel strongly enough about this to use the above quote as the point of a new thread though, then you should feel strongly enough about it to suggest some of the "better ways" that you must already have in mind. Don't hold out on us or SE. In its current state, your original post is set up to accomplish nothing but some venting. Instead, if you could please elaborate, your post would do the game a service by sharing the constructive criticism that you allude to having in mind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aenarion

Sure, but I think it'd also be a good idea to create a list for terrble posters, that way we can see in advance whose posts are worthless.

FYI, I don't RMT, I was not suspended, nor did I lose any of my gil, and I still think your posts are terrible.

---

Terrible Posters are out in the open , easy to see.
But
Cheaters and Hackers , well .............they get to be in the shadows .

Nice Flame :(
Must not read TOS too well .

I'm all for people getting caught and I'm sure some real cheaters did but the blanket /100 division is just plain weird, especially with people who spent the money seemingly unaffected still having w/e they bought. I'm not calling for a reversal or saying everyone was innocent, I just find the circumstances of the punishment uneven.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sadebreth

You are the one treating a virtual economy from an mmo like a real world economy. In the real world there are rules and regulations to govern everything in an economy and whole organizations to police it. There is nothing like that in this game.

---

Regardless of whether it’s virtual or real life, the basic economic principles apply, but then you’d already know that if you are remotely educated on the subject. Eve Online, a MMO, has one of the largest and robust virtual economy in the world, where CCP actually hired real economists to study it, I’m pretty sure they know a lot more than you do.

Quote:

---

There could be a thousand of one item from different people on the AH at 20k gil and one person comes along and sets their price at 200k. Then he could get his buddy to buy it for that much. As soon as someone sees that everyone starts putting that thing up for 200k just because ONE sold for that much. The other thousand are still there. There was no supply and demand just someone trying to manipulate the market in a game. I have seen it a thousand times.

---

Market manipulation IS part of both RL and virtual economies, whether it’s manipulating the perceived value/scarcity of a product or by manipulating the supply of said product. Market manipulation does not somehow avoid the supply/demand curve, it aims to modify it, and in your example it is attempting to do so through altering perceived value by taking advantage of poor market visibility.



What you don’t realize in that case is, just because it is put up for sale for 200k, doesn’t mean there is demand to drive the sale of said item at that price level. If it was a weapon, does it perform well enough to warrant the 200k price? If it’s a crafting ingredient, is it rare enough, or is the resulting product from said ingredient valuable enough, to warrant the 200k price?

If yes, then the original 20k price was simply too low to begin with, and the move to 200k was a market correction. If not, then why in the world would you or anyone purchase said item? If I offered you a bicycle that’s worth $50 for $5,000, would you buy it simply because I offered it?

Heres the issue
There is no Honesty thus we will never know who is innocent or not.
We have to leave it to a Company to make its own judgment , and it would be a poor business model to suspend or ban innocent players , not a very good way to make Profits .....
Square Enix is a For Profit Corporation ........

So while a vast small Minority is getting this attention and a Majority of us remain unaffected , I will leave it in the hands of the Business that owns all rights to this game and therefor of inside or out .

They have logs to check , research , and track to find those who were one way or another apart of RMT ........buying or selling.
They did this in FF11
They find RMT in game , Ban them , take their character and look in a Database , if your name rings up as someone who had traded with a RMT .........you get punished.
How can they tell innocent or not ?
Well RMT seem to sell in Flat Numbers

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aenarion

Regardless of whether it’s virtual or real life, the basic economic principles apply, but then you’d already know that if you are remotely educated on the subject. Eve Online, a MMO, has one of the largest and robust virtual economy in the world, where CCP actually hired real economists to study it, I’m pretty sure they know a lot more than you do.



Market manipulation IS part of both RL and virtual economies, whether it’s manipulating the perceived value/scarcity of a product or by manipulating the supply of said product. Market manipulation does not somehow avoid the supply/demand curve, it aims to modify it, and in your example it is attempting to do so through altering perceived value by taking advantage of poor market visibility.

---

This games economy cannot even be remotely compared to eve. It is better compared to WoW.

So were you one of them that came in and analyzed it? By your own logic you can say the same about yourself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Divinemight

Truth is, you need to either relax or quit this game. You are not getting your gils back in any mean. S/E clearly stated that gil invovled in RMT transaction are counterfiet. In real life, good luck to you if you try to claim counterfiet loss from a bank or government. Many business just put it to loss.

If gils are that easy to make as you claim they are. The time you spend on here complaining already let you to recover the loss.

---

I'm not going to try to make more money in-game when it's unresolved how to avoid having it removed again. I'd be asking for more trouble by doing that, now wouldn't I? Which is pretty much entirely why I bother posting: to discuss what happened with other players and to see if anyone receives an official response. It's not just the previous loss that matters, it's the precedent that's been set and what it means to play the game with that knowledge. It's not the same anymore, because it's unclear how to safely acquire enough gil for a future mansion. And until that's resolved, I won't play. Indefinitely, if that's the case.

In terms of my level of relaxation, I appreciate the concern! But if anything, I can use the pump -- it's about time to work out. RAHHH! ;) Although to be honest, forum dialogue doesn't really get me going like some of you seem to think it does. If it did, I probably would avoid participating on the forums, because discussing this stuff with other members of the community, while at times can be enlightening, is really not useful (at least in this situation). No one here can do anything about this issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ReplicaX

Other side of the coin is, I don't believe half of the ppl telling their story as this is the internet. Cheaters love to play the cry innocence game and unfortunately SE doesn't share their investigations to the public and never will.

---

This.
I've been crafting for a long time, and selling things on the market for just as long. I didn't get suspended, banned, or gil confiscated. Knowing my situation just makes it hard for me to believe all these people complaining about it on the forums aren't guilty.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nanga

This.
I've been crafting for a long time, and selling things on the market for just as long. I didn't get suspended, banned, or gil confiscated. Knowing my situation just makes it hard for me to believe all these people complaining about it on the forums aren't guilty.

---

I have friends who now have over a couple million in this game made from launch of 2.0 to now , they are still playing and crafting .
Its hard to not pass judgment when a small minority gets punished and the rest are still playing the game ....

If SE does anything there will always be those who will cry innocent.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by funkin

I'm not going to try to make more money in-game when it's unresolved how to avoid having it removed again.

---

It only gets removed if the majority of ingame gil is from RMT. Think about it like this: it should mathematically be improbable for you to make X amount of gil in Y amount of time, because there is Z amount of gil being produced from leves/quests in the economy. If Z, X, and Y are significantly higher than projected, then an overwhelming % of the gil you buy/sell/trade with is RMT driven. This means it has to get nuked to the level where you *should* be at.

Thing is they didnt even nuke all of it. They just nuked it down to a manageable level.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by funkin

I'm not going to try to make more money in-game when it's unresolved how to avoid having it removed again. I'd be asking for more trouble by doing that, now wouldn't I? Which is pretty much entirely why I bother posting: to discuss what happened with other players and to see if anyone receives an official response. It's not just the previous loss that matters, it's the precedent that's been set and what it means to play the game with that knowledge. It's not the same anymore, because it's unclear how to safely acquire enough gil for a future mansion. And until that's resolved, I won't play. Indefinitely, if that's the case.

---

It is simple enough, stay away from items that selling for couple of millions...... This game simply does not have that gigantic gil fountain to begin with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

It only gets removed if the majority of ingame gil is from RMT. Think about it like this: it should mathematically be improbable for you to make X amount of gil in Y amount of time, because there is Z amount of gil being produced from leves/quests in the economy. If Z, X, and Y are significantly higher than projected, then an overwhelming % of the gil you buy/sell/trade with is RMT driven. This means it has to get nuked to the level where you *should* be at.

Thing is they didnt even nuke all of it. They just nuked it down to a manageable level.

---

This "math" isn't right. which is why you assume making this gil isn't possible without RMT. Look at just ONE scenario where it's easy to make millions:

Thousands of people per server. Lots of level 50s. People mismanaging money so badly that they post about problems with gil fountains on the forums. You don't think 200 people can spend 25k gil each? That's 5 million gil. Imagine you reached level 50 Gatherer before most people, and all these people hitting level 50 in combat classes want better gear, and they are sitting on 200-300k gil. Every big FC has a few 50 crafters. Every town has crafters offering their services. The combat players talk to them, ask them what mats they need to craft something, and then buy those mats on the market.

That's just one way for me, as a Botanist, to have made gil. This doesn't include selling to crafters who then make stuff to sell on the market, and use their profits so they can buy more materials and repeat the process. This doesn't include selling Grade 3 Carbonized Matter, which EVERYONE needs for materia melding. I've literally sold thousands of carbonized matters, and they sell for anywhere between 100-1000gil each depending on the market, usually around 200gil lately.

There are so many ways to make money if you think about it, and none of them *have* to involve RMT. You don't need to buy gil to spend 5k on carbonized matter. You don't need to buy gil to spend 10k on HQ logs or crawler cocoons.

Edit: My point isn't that RMT isn't an issue, my point is that for me to assume my sales were going to gil-buyers doesn't make sense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Divinemight

It is simple enough, stay away from items that selling for couple of millions...... This game simply does not have that gigantic gil fountain to begin with.

---

Not true. I haven't made one sale for over 100k. I don't think I even went over 70k for a single sale actually.

I don't believe people who say they were wrongfully accused and lost millions. If that was the case then all those harvested items gil farmers bot would be confiscated too. So please if you were a legit player you wouldn't be wasting time making a post in the forums.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eripha

I don't believe people who say they were wrongfully accused and lost millions. If that was the case then all those harvested items gil farmers bot would be confiscated too. So please if you were a legit player you wouldn't be wasting time making a post in the forums.

---

It's because they are legit players that they are posting on the forums! Why wouldn't a person who made millions of gil through completely legitimate means (selling items on the market board to hundreds or thousands of other players) be angry about having their gil taken away, just because one of their customers may have been a gil buyer?

Nevermind that SE themselves said that the people they deemed innocent of wrongdoing would get their accounts reinstated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Schubalts

It's because they are legit players that they are posting on the forums! Why wouldn't a person who made millions of gil through completely legitimate means (selling items on the market board to hundreds or thousands of other players) be angry about having their gil taken away, just because one of their customers may have been a gil buyer?

Nevermind that SE themselves said that the people they deemed innocent of wrongdoing would get their accounts reinstated.

---

If that was the case it would be a domino effect. Player B buys 99 logs from Player C etc, that is why I'm calling it BS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lucroarna

I've seen many uninformed individuals attack people verbally, and accuse them of lying or buying gil. This is not the case, and I thought I would explain to the average person what the actual problem is here.

Player A: A person who bought gil
Player B: A person who didn't buy gil

Player A buys gil
Player B sells 99 logs for 4.5k on the market boards
Player A buys 99 log for 4.5k on the market boards from Player B's retainer
Player B makes a profit and receives gil from a player whose gil was obtained from cheating
Player B is banned for 5-10 days of a paid amount of time, and when returned to the game, has went from 1 million gil to 100k

I am not a player who has been banned, but I think this is ridiculous and the worst way I've seen an MMO handle RMT. There are better ways.

---

off topic, but werent you quitting the game? why are you still here?

Go troll another thread. They can post here for as long as the subscription time they already purchased will last, and they should continue posting about this ridiculous situation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eripha

If that was the case it would be a domino effect. Player B buys 99 logs from Player C etc, that is why I'm calling it BS.

---

That's another reason these players are angry. Absolutely nothing was done to the supposed gil buyers that bought their items, yet these supposed gil buyers are SE's reason for taking 99% of these crafters' gil.

hm, if it's mostly "innocents" like in this thread, who are extremely rude, insulting and passive agressive towards others , then i don't mind it one bit if such people were cought in the crossfire of square enix' recent actions tbh...

So this is SE's logic?

Person A: Steals $50
Person B: Puts something on eBay to sell
Person A: Buys it with the money they stole
Person A: Jailed for a week
Person B: Jailed for a week
Person B: Police confiscate $1,000,000 because they received stolen money and are deemed to have too much!

Ok....

This is not the first mmo that has removed money from a player.it affects the economy if 1000/5000 ppl on a server have millions more then the rest this early in a games life.it cripples the other 4000 players chances of gearing up when ppl price things so high.it can also inflate a servers economy by the other 4000 players farming and selling items for high prices and the rich 1000 buying them.and to think this can all happen from 1 person buying 100m from a RMT.so the simple and safest way to set things right is removing gil from the server.did u see how much money they removed??? The game would've been terrible for new players if it kept going.....honestly if u don't like their problem solving,go play something else

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sadebreth

"hai guiz, I don't understand anything about the subject I'm talking about, but I'm going to talk like I do, and anyone who disagree with me is wrong, because I said so!

---

You're just like those people who spent 5 minutes on webmd and then promptly go to lecture their doctors because they are now experts :rolleyes:

Good lord, what do they teach in school these days? prove supply and demand? do you also ask your teacher to prove to you that the sky is blue?

Yeah... I've seen this before.

Your little demo should have been written more like this:

Player A buys gil
Player A uses that gil to level a craft
Player A swears to any god he can think of that he leveled that craft the legit way
Player A makes a fortune off of the craft
Player A gets banned for buying gil in the first place
Player A screams to the high heavens about injustice, but in the end, he still bought gil, no matter how much he denies it

Welcome to real life, where people do stupid shit and then lie about having done it because they don't want everyone to turn on them like sharks scenting blood in the water the second their actions catch back up to them.

I have a level 50 craft. I have a ridiculous amount of gil. I was not banned/suspended for it. Why? Because I actually DID do it the legit way. I made a fortune selling materia and used said fortune to level a craft, which I then used to make a greater fortune. In the end, you can make every excuse there is to make, but the fact that I did not get banned while others did speaks VOLUMES about their supposed innocence.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marael

Yeah... I've seen this before.

Your little demo should have been written more like this:

Player A buys gil
Player A uses that gil to level a craft
Player A swears to any god he can think of that he leveled that craft the legit way
Player A makes a fortune off of the craft
Player A gets banned for buying gil in the first place
Player A screams to the high heavens about injustice, but in the end, he still bought gil, no matter how much he denies it

---

Yup, they totally bought gil and are lying about it.

What's that? SE themselves have said that these people whose accounts were reinstated didn't buy gil? I wonder why SE would say that.

Gotta love these threads.

1 side is deeply naive and don't think SE can do wrong

The other side are the ones who got punished, innocent or not, they keep complaining to no end. If you want to have any impact; unsub!

Both sides are throwing mud at each other, meanwhile I'm just sitting here eating popcorn :P

(my wife and I was affected by this 'wipe' even though we didn't do anything wrong. I find this thread really amusing. I don't care about your opinion regarding my case.)

MORE POPCORN! spiced with all these delicious tears

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lucroarna

I've seen many uninformed individuals [...]

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lucroarna

I am not a player who has been banned [...]

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lucroarna

...this isn't an opinion on the situation, this is what is currently happening to people.

---

Just putting it together to show what I said in another thread. Even if this is true (and I can say that I don't know if it is, unlike others do), a lot of people are just assuming that that's exactly what happened just because some people that they don't know said so. Many people have said that they've made vast amounts of gil with crafting yet they haven't been banned or their gil removed. Do their words have less weight or something? No, it's just the same as the first ones.

Believe just what you see with your own eyes, not what others tell you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Schubalts

SE themselves have said that these people whose accounts were reinstated didn't buy gil?

---

Link please? And one on these forums if it's possible, not on Reddit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Schubalts

Go troll another thread. They can post here for as long as the subscription time they already purchased will last, and they should continue posting about this ridiculous situation.

---

Why does someone always assume a troll post when it is something they don't want to hear? It is my opinion.

They probably have unsub'b (one guy has explicitly said he has unsub'd). Doing that doesn't remove your already paid for gametime, so they are free to draw more attention to the issue on the forums..

This all seems to be only half true to me. I have seen threads where people would admit to purposely exploiting RMT buyers buy selling said items at crazy prices. These people deserve to be banned because they are indirectly supporting RMT and know it, and I wouldn't be surprised if this is the bulk of the group of people who hadn't actually bought RMT, but were temp banned.

The problem here is that the vast majority of these complaints are made by people who probably deserve the ban and are mad that they got caught. They then try to take the story of a few people who got mixed up in this mess and blow it up to achieve on of two things. Either their stuff restored, or to make SE look bad for catching them. Until we see some hard evidence, no one really knows who is telling the truth and who is lying. What we do know is that there has to be more to this investigation than people selling on the market, or most players would be banned by now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yshnal

Link please? And one on these forums if it's possible, not on Reddit.

---

The only links are to the news posts about SE's "Anti RMT Measures". You're not given a link when customer support tells you that accounts that were under investigation and were found to not be in violation of the TOS, would only receive temporary suspensions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eripha

Why does someone always assume a troll post when it is something they don't want to hear? It is my opinion.

---

I wasn't saying that you were a troll. I was referring to the Gyrus going "Why are you still here?", which adds nothing to the discussion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Schubalts

The only links are to the news posts about SE's "Anti RMT Measures". You're not given a link when customer support tells you that accounts that were under investigation and were found to not be in violation of the TOS, would only receive temporary suspensions.

---

Then we are in the situation that I'm saying: random people say something with no actual proof and many others just believe them and/or start a crusade to defend something that they don't really know about.

I'm not saying that it's not true, as I don't know like I said, but we don't know if it's a lie either as to make threads like this one or defend people that we don't know without knowing what really happened. Only people affected by it know it and, by all means, they're in their right to vote with their wallets. But getting this out of hand, as it's happening, with many people afraid of selling things because someone said that they were banned or got their gil taken from them for doing so, is wrong and just screams of "hysteria".

I think if we were making false claims, that a Community Rep would have at least commended on here.

As it is, I think they realise what a mess they have made for themselves.

We want accounts Investigated by an actual Human GM, I for one would be more than happy for them to post results here.

That way they could clear our names and if anyone is lying, they would be named and shamed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Masked

As I said before, one of my best gaming buddies was the first 50 miner on cactaur. Made over 3m JUST SELLING MATS. As of right now, he has @200k left and an email from SE basically telling him that he's guilty.)
.

---

When he Made over 3m JUST SELLING MATS was he selling it for a price that would require the purchaser to do RMT to buy the items. To me it sounds like what they are saying is that if you made more then what would have been possible had there not been RMT to exploit the money is fake anyways and goes away.

to gain so much coin using methods that promoted only ppl with rmt could complete the transaction is in itself where you cheated.

be happy you can still play and have way more gil then i will ever get in the next few months i am sure. in real life you can go to jail for playing a market like that.