The reason PLD took priority is because it is objectively underperforming. Keep in mind that SE still thinks their healer design is perfection and in terms of numbers they're doing fine, even if the gameplay is an absolute joke. They're lower in priority because they're doing fine on paper.
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09-16-2022, 06:40 AMAbsurdity
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09-16-2022, 07:41 AMRein_eon_Osborne
A buff to Requiescat's range up to 25y to facilitate face pulling straight into Spellblade phase. /s
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09-16-2022, 11:45 PMRivinhal
We already have a movement option in ruin II. Why do we need a dps neutral (and sometime, but most times it's not really free) movement tool?
I love SCH. It's the only job I'm even decent at. But I think adding energy drain back was a mistake vs. slightly reworking the job. But I guess that was never really on the table.
I'm still baffled how/why they seem to think that SCH is perfectly fine, but AST needs a rework. Both have clear design issues.
Back on topic, I get the feeling they'll monitor PLD and see if these changes help, and with 6.3 it might get more potency/minor changes, with a rework in 7.0. But I don't think any of these jobs are gonna get a SMN level rework. It'll prob be more along the lines of 5.1 ninja instead. -
09-17-2022, 12:01 AMty_taurusRuin II used to be the same potency as Broil, but had double the MP cost. This made it effective for weaving purposes, but not ideal for spamming and was a healthy way for SCH to address mobility. You felt mobile, but there was a soft limit to your ability to do so. It was also a unique way to address mobility and weaving rather than just making Broil have a 1.5 second cast time that had a bit more flavor and feel to it, even if fairly small. I can't really fathom not wanting that over the current Ruin II feeling more inconsequential than it's ever felt before and still taking a DPS tax.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rivinhal
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09-17-2022, 12:11 AMNizziSCH is the only healer that has no way to move outside of its 30s DoT refresh and weave windows without losing DPS. Why wouldn't Scholar need a lossless movement tool when you consider that this is what Miasma II+Energy Drain used to be in Stormblood and what Ruin II + Energy Drain was in Shadowbringers? It's not even an argument of "every other healer has this, so we need it too," it's an argument of "Scholar has always had this up until this expansion, because the developers did not think about what 1.5s cast times would do to the entirety of Scholar's kit."Quote:
Originally Posted by Rivinhal
As it stands, Ruin II is not a strength of Scholar, it is a weakness in its current iteration. Energy Drain was added back because it was necessary for Scholar to be able to heal at all without losing DPS in Shadowbringers. As it stands though, the 1.5s cast times have eliminated the necessity of Ruin II and Energy Drain within Scholar's kit, and yet they still remain.
The most annoying part is that it's not even really a hard fix, and there's multiple ways to go about it. For example:
Delete Energy Drain, and give Aetherflow a "further Ruin" trait that gives 3 stacks of Ruin IV that cost 1 stack of Aetherflow each, and use it in the same way ShB SMN held Ruin IV stacks - transform Ruin II into Ruin IV when you have them. This eliminates a button and doesn't get rid of Ruin II's "uniqueness" as an on demand mobility tool at a DPS loss. Make SCH's Ruin IV 100 potency over Broil IV so it still retains some aspect of DPS optimization with stacks too. This frees up a button for Scholar as well, while admittedly making Ruin II a bit more restrictive.
Change Energy Drain into an instant cast GCD that is DPS neutral to Ruin and all Broil upgrades. This way Energy Drain exists as a stack dump, exists as a DPS neutral movement tool and the amount of keybinds stays the same.
Energy Drain used to have a 3 second CD as well, but they changed it to 1s one in EW, likely out of the assumption that Scholar players just really love using their healing resources for damage. And while this isn't entirely incorrect as the DPS optimization aspect of Energy Drain is enjoyable, it's just another sign that they do not understand Scholar's healing priority and how Scholar wants to play optimally. -
09-17-2022, 12:11 AMRilifaneI think MP limiting comfort tools is a much better solution in general. It gives you a softcap and you can decide for your own how to use it and good players will always try to avoid so they can go for higher dps sets with risky MP economy. Aoe GCD heals, mobility and weaving tools can be spammable in theory but with high MP cost tacked on so that you'll definitely feel it if you rely too much on comfort tools instead of utilizing your whole toolkit and playing more efficiently.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
It won't punish you the first time you use. Nor the second. But if you keep using them too liberally, you'll pay for it and it sends a message without making it impossible to deal with unforseen circumstances. -
09-17-2022, 02:05 AMty_taurusAnd to add to that, having ways to get your MP back at an opportunity cost if you've gone too far can help those jobs still feel forgiving--that if you do overextend, you're not going to push yourself into a healing deficit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rilifane
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09-17-2022, 09:48 AMRivinhalWhat you described is certainly a better way of handling it. I feel like that would be a good way to make Ruin 2 more valid for what it's supposed to be. But I still don't think adding energy drain back was a good way to solve the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
The difference is that Broil wasn't a 1.5s cast in those expansions either though. It's not even really necessary anymore. Slidecasting has never been easier, and if you're using Ruin 2 constantly, there's an issue imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nizzi
Maybe that comes down to personal opinion, who knows. After all, I understand the argument that you're making, but I think rather than just caving and giving us back a shoddy tool like energy drain that fixes one issue and exacerbates another, they could've just fixed the problem entirely.
That's my biggest gripe. There's so many ways they could've fixed it, but instead people begged for energy drain, and they got it. And now SE seems to think the job is just fine because people got what they wanted and the job performs well.
Sure, it performs well, but it's so janky that it hurts. It's like they don't understand the job at all. It's infuriating. -
09-17-2022, 12:58 PMNizziThis is important to remember because it's true - the changes to Scholar from Stormblood to even Endwalker show they don't understand how the job is played, or if they do they have a radically different vision for how it, in their minds, should be played.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rivinhal
The problem is that if you're using Ruin II at all, there's an issue. It's not just a "don't use this often" button, it's ALWAYS a DPS loss to use it, so when trying to optimize it's a "never use this" button. In ShB, Lilies were used by White Mage primarily as a movement tool because WHM had no movement options outside of hitting Dia for the 70 or whatever potency it was. WHM was even called a turret mage by some because it just couldn't move without losing DPS, and obviously that's been changed in EW and now WHM can use its Lilies for healing or needed movement, and I don't think anyone seriously wants to go back to the "lmao enjoy the DPS loss for pressing your buttons MORON" era on WHM. So why should we now be suffering that on SCH?Quote:
The difference is that Broil wasn't a 1.5s cast in those expansions either though. It's not even really necessary anymore. Slidecasting has never been easier, and if you're using Ruin 2 constantly, there's an issue imo.
One thing I'm a bit confused is how you don't like Energy Drain, but you do like Ruin II - they're two sides of the same token. One is a DPS loss to heal with, and the other is a DPS loss. If it feels bad to hit ED, it feels bad to hit Ruin II.
While it's true that SE doesn't understand Scholar, it's also important to understand the timeline in which these changes were made. In Stormblood, Miasma II was a 100 potency spell with a 12s DoT that had a 25s potency, meaning it added up to 200 potency total if the DoT got the full tick duration - pair that with Energy Drain's 150 potency (at the time, it was nerfed mid ShB) and Miasma II + ED was a 350 potency combo, a 120 potency gain over Broil II (230 potency) and SCH's best way of moving or weaving healing. Ruin II also existed in Stormblood, but it was always a DPS loss to hit even though Ruin II + ED would've been 20 potency gain over Broil II (Ruin II was 100 potency). It was always a DPS loss to hit because Miasma II existed as the superior option. So SE saw that Scholars were not using Ruin II, but they had a general understanding of the reasoning being that Miasma II was 200 potency, Ruin II was 100 potency, so in their great SCH DoT cull they buffed Ruin II to 200 potency like Miasma II was, and got rid of Miasma II.Quote:
I think rather than just caving and giving us back a shoddy tool like energy drain that fixes one issue and exacerbates another, they could've just fixed the problem entirely.
Great, everything is perfect now, right? Scholars will use Ruin II now and we got rid of a DoT!
Well, not really. You also have to keep in mind that this happened at the exact same time that Scholar lost it's entirely free source of healing - its faerie. Moving Eos and Selene off the petGCD and onto the oGCD now meant that SCH had to weave to use Whispering Dawn and the new faerie heals when previously these had never come with an opportunity or DPS cost as SCH could use them while they were casting Broil or any other spells. So people demanded Energy Drain back, because coming off of Stormblood, it was what they knew in regards to Scholar. Would 1.5s cast times like AST had at that point have fixed that issue? Yeah, it would've, and they could've kept Energy Drain gone as well. Why didn't they do that? Well, because they don't understand how the job is played. They don't care, it's a healer and it's not something they're ever going to care about. -
09-17-2022, 09:25 PMDeceptusThat'll be 3 jobs with "reworks" in 7.0 then, along with 2 (possibly) new jobs added. Job design team is going to be stretched ridiculously thinQuote:
Originally Posted by Rivinhal
If that is the case, it'll be their excuse to not add new jobs.