Dear SE, stop homogenizing jobs

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Originally Posted by Siete

The great obliteration of World of Warcraft classes came with raid-oriented class balance.
Look at them, they used to be the strongest MMO out there now they're down the sinkhole, DEAD.

So yeah, if Final Fantasy is going the WoW way with class design and balance around raids, it will share the same fate and die.

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It might be a tad bit of an exaggeration to say WoW died.

The problem with WoW is not the class balance or homogenization (which i disagree with btw. I don't think there is homogenization in WoW and very little here in FF), it's how simple specs are, with rotations typically taking 3-4 buttons. FF is in the opposite of that spectrum. That and their end-game infinite grind/RNG systems that burn people out. That is what is wrong with WoW and why people are leaving.

So, my point to the OP would be to give me examples of what this homogenization is for you and where do you see it. The only place where i see a bit is on Tanks/healers/dps having those role specific skills that are the same for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Shori

I feel the point OP is making.
I dont play FFXIV to raid, I play FFXIV to have fun and do many DIFFERENT things. Now, playing WHM feels the same as playing SCH, which used to be so very different in play style.

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Yeah, the healers are in a really BAD spot right now. But I guess SE thinks they have to completely break them down to bare bones and start from scratch. They really are carbon copies of each other.

Problem with that is when everyone else is getting shiny new toys, we're back to square 1.

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Originally Posted by TheForce

Nah, jobs have been homogenized. To give an example, WAR has pretty much had its HP focused identity stripped away from it.

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No, that's role homogenization. Job homogenization would be playing exactly the same. Also, war lost its "hp focused identity" in 2.1 or 2.2 when they completely remade it and gave it damage reduction cool downs.


Healers are homogenized to a degree, mostly in terms of dps abilities.

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Originally Posted by Shori

I feel the point OP is making.
I dont play FFXIV to raid, I play FFXIV to have fun and do many DIFFERENT things. Now, playing WHM feels the same as playing SCH, which used to be so very different in play style.

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So a healer who deals in regens and burst heals with GCDs feels the same as a mitigative healer who relies mostly on oGCDs? Are you even listening to yourself?

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Originally Posted by Nemmar

It might be a tad bit of an exaggeration to said WoW died.

The problem with WoW is not the class balance or homogenization (which i disagree with btw. I don't think there is homogenization in WoW and very little here in FF), it's how simple specs are, with rotations typically taking 3-4 buttons. FF is in the opposite of that spectrum. That and their end-game infinite grind/RNG systems that burn people out. That is what is wrong with WoW and why people are leaving.

So, my point to the OP would be to give me examples of what this homogenization is for you and where do you see it. The only place where i see a bit is on Tanks/healers/dps having those role specific skills that are the same for everyone.

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All classes in WoW are the same.
Press 1 for filler
Press 2 to reapply dot
Press 3 to use a cooldown or "charge" skill
Press 4 for the proc

It's a literal calculator simulator game.

I've had a funny thought for a while with the whole limited jobs, pvp, raid scenes. . . .

What if, wait- don't rage yet. . lol. What if the core part of the game for casuals is very well made limited jobs, and raiders get a sort of pvp (more abilities though) balanced set. Or in other words all of our jobs start out limited and quite distinct from each other, as we play the open world and most of the DF type content even (all of the story content).

Now this is basically impossible to do at this point, but was just thinking in a general sort of MMO sense. But.. Just wondered how well that'd work if we were all basically special snowflakes from the start lol, we all had unique systems and jobs- some jobs may have to raise pets requiring different time schedules and expectations, some having to learn abilities from monsters, others going on great pilgrimages, etc... taking that old school long world building sort of approach and adding some modern trappings so certain frustrations are removed but that "I hardly balance your jobs, you're all existing for theme and fun" screams.

Then of course, like our PvP, raiding and a place where balance is paramount you'd have your own special set of skills- as much as possible from the limited side of the job would be carried into that, spell ideas, gimmicks that can translate, but most importantly everyone would be balanced so having or not having X isn't a game killer (beyond just making sure you have X Y Z roles).

So really they'd not be limited jobs anymore since they could take part in 90% of the content but yeah... I just had wondered if the main part of the game was basically unlocked and allowed for each job to approach in their own weird way with balance being put behind fun and unique designs. For those thinking of FFXIV's blue mage I'd say don't think on that too much since it's obviously not made with idea that it would take part in most content / wasn't funded in the sense that it's a core job, here I'm saying these wild and wacky jobs with their own systems and rules would take part and stand in the major content and thus would also receive a lot more funding. If it's not fun and screaming theme of the job then it failed, but if an awesome idea is butting up against balance we'd be like "yeah whatever" doesn't matter. "Oh no you can complete the dungeon faster, big whoop- point of this content is to just experience the game, and not compete".

And of course for the stuff where competing and balance is exceptionally important you'd have that in the forms of job kits designed explicitly for that purpose with strict rules put in place, of course you want it to be fun and to theme still but "occasionally" that'd have to take the back seat. In fact the kit for both high end raids and pvp could be the same kit.

Though just saying again, bit late to do that for this game lol- would be huge redesigns everywhere. Just thought it could be quite a unique experience in an mmo where the main part of the game for casuals is fun and theme first and foremost, balance semi-important but we've got a pvp/extreme raid kit for that so don't listen to balance that much.

Exceptionally few rules, few restrictions, full resources, what would be fun for that theme? Do that. When you were out in the wild and see another job you'd feel like a whole new school of thought was opened to you. Honestly, sounds like chaos but occasionally I find the idea entertaining to consider lol. Especially if rather than "side content" like blue mage is these things are designed for the major content and receive the major funds (so that their abilities and concepts are given the full time to ferment and play how would be most fun), and of course they'd have their PvP/Ex/ultimate kit for balance.

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Originally Posted by Siete

All classes in WoW are the same.
Press 1 for filler
Press 2 to reapply dot
Press 3 to use a cooldown or "charge" skill
Press 4 for the proc

It's a literal calculator simulator game.

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That is really an oversimplification in my opinion. Many specs don't even have dots and several don't even have procs. I really don't want to defend their specs, cause i find them simplistic and boring. But i wouldn't say they are all the same, cause that is not how they feel to me.

But this logic is like saying all melee have a 123 combo in FF. Well, they do. But they have different effects and more combos depending on the job. It's a simplistic way to look at it. But, it is your opinion, and you are entitled to it.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

So a healer who deals in regens and burst heals with GCDs feels the same as a mitigative healer who relies mostly on oGCDs? Are you even listening to yourself?

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When you spend the vast majority of your time not healing, and even when you are healing that healing is just spamming the 2 buttons, yeah, they feel the same. Sure, succor has a different effect from medica/cure III, but you're not building for it, you're not having to proc it, it doesn't feel different when I'm using succor vs when I'm using cure III because they don't have anything that differentiates them besides how much they heal, which is a moot point because they both heal enough. So no, they really don't feel any different, the only major difference I can sort of give is that SCH can spam energy drain.

So many drama queens in this thread. Carry on.

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Originally Posted by Siete

Just give a party buff for different classes taken or something.

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So you're advocating for the disassociation between job gameplay and job contribution?