Please make tanks more unique by making the 30% damage reduction skills different

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Originally Posted by Samsta

The fact that they are used to mitigate damage doesn't mean they can't do it in a different and interesting ways. Damage skills are also used to deal damage, why bother making them different? Every dps in this game is just doing damage, in fact no matter what you think about it all the skills in the game are just ways to do a couple of different things with "fancy bell and ribbons", it's precisely those fancy bells and ribbons why we like some over the other. What's the point of having different classes in the first place if they have so many same abilities?

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So first off, there is only Three forms of damage mitigation in this game where this discussion is concerned, damage reduction skills (Standard tank CDs), HP based shields, and damage reduction applied to the boss (Reprisal, Addle, Feint). Tank invulns exist, but they're whatever. Damage reduction, personally they are easier to balance, no need for "bells and ribbons".

HP based shields, are incredibly difficult to balance against standard damage reduction, as damage intake increases, their ability to mitigate lessens if the hp doesn't meet the same scale of increase. So on undergeared tanks is becomes a detriment while it's effect duration also ends a lot sooner than the standard damage reduction skills.

Damage reduction debuff, at 30% will be rediculously broken on raidbusters and more often than not pointless in dungeon content, unless it's AoE, and then making it even more broken in Savage and Ultimate fights with multiple enemies.

Adding secondary effects, unless they're all damage in some form like Vengeance, there will be complaints. "Why do they get more damage from theirs, while mine gives me more defensive than I don't actually need."

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Originally Posted by RadicalPesto

Bulwark was literally merged into Sheltron. Bulwark has zero reason to exist now that Sheltron can block multiple hits, has en effective cooldown of less than 1/6th tof Bulwark's, and doesn't have Bulwark's approximately 10% chance of failing to block (which made Bulwark unreliable for tankbusters). Paladin already had serious button bloat issues so getting rid of a weak cooldown by merging its effect with a readily available one seems fine to me.

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This is going off on a tangent. The tanks don't need to share the same defensive skills with different names. Turning Bulwark into something to make up for SB's Sentinel's downsides would achieve balance without homogenization. Some of us would have preferred going that route. That's the point, not whether or not Bulwark was good.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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When the abilities are essentially all identical, having one that has all the features of the others + 1 sticks out like a sore thumb.

I feel like the people balancing this game have no actual vision on what they want to achieve. If your goal is to make it so that every tank does the same dps regardless of whether they are actively taking or not, Vengeance makes no sense. I don't care what the design philosophy is, I just want some consistency.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

So first off, there is only ThreeAdding secondary effects, unless they're all damage in some form like Vengeance, there will be complaints. "Why do they get more damage from theirs, while mine gives me more defensive than I actually need."

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Better to have that, than three skills being the same, seeing how we are already having that discussion. Three Sentinels, one Vengeance.

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Originally Posted by Quri

Better to have that, than three skills being the same, seeing how we are already having that discussion. Three Sentinels, one Vengeance.

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eh...don't twist my words. Like honestly I don't think Vengenace should retains it's Physical spike damage, but in magical heavy fights it's neutered, unless the autos are physical. Even then it's only a paltry 55 potency which isn't gonna be that noticeable if it remains or goes, especially now that it only last for 10seconds. Either way I won't lose sleep over it.

I do however think tanks should be differentiated through playstyle, instead of by having similar defensive toolkits.

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

This is going off on a tangent. The tanks don't need to share the same defensive skills with different names. Turning Bulwark into something to make up for SB's Sentinel's downsides would achieve balance without homogenization. Some of us would have preferred going that route. That's the point, not whether or not Bulwark was good.

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This is pointless, unless Bulwark was guaranteed damage reduction, it's a terrible skill, RNG is this game is pretty bad if you do any crafting/ gathering you'll know. the biggest issue is crits also which blocking does not currently mitigate. So some form of bulwark would be pointless in all instances in trying to offset sentinels 3minute cooldown.

There's nothing wrong with some degree of "homogenisation" ooohhh big scary word, so what if some things are similar, tanks are the most balanced they have ever been, and if having some homogenisation means all tanks are taken and not a HW situation with PLD, or SB for DRK, then it's a worthwhile "sacrifice".

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Originally Posted by Kemiko

Personally, I'm of the opinion that mitigation for tanks don't need to be, or even feel, different.

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Same can be said about DPS rotations.
I think there should be tanks with more focus on mitigation gameplay, and some with more DPS rotation gameplay, and some which are middle ground mixture.

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Originally Posted by shao32

i rather preffer they make tanks more unique by removing rampart and bring back shadow skin and foresight while creating something for GNB and focus on make tanks overall gameplay more unique and stop copy pasting mechanics on almost all of them.

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Pretty much this, but they do need to keep in mind that some balance needs to be met, to make that uniqueness work. (Which they were semi close before, but didnt want to work it out.)

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Originally Posted by Lyth

You can make them identical if you like, but don't change the animations. Shadowskin was an amazing animation. I don't want to see the same happen to Shadow Wall.

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I feel that the bare minimum would be different animations. (They could even call them the same name, like Rampart, but have shadow skin animation/foresight. liek they used to do with cross role skills back in 2.0 DRG using Savage blade looked different than PLD savage blade)

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

The 3min CDs can be identical, but they should using that spared time honing down on the 3rd mitigation skills and self heals..
Some could be more refined or made more characteristic of the job/playstyle, since these actions don't really factor as much

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One could be shorter, but 5% weaker, or a bit longer but 5% stronger. the 3min requirement isnt needed.
The other mitigation options would flow a bit better, if their "common/shared" mitigation options were better suited for their theme, rather than copy/pastes. So its possible, but hard to fix this problem, w/o fixing the other.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

honestly the 3 minute recast on Sentinel was so unjustified, and there was never an answer to the extra 60 seconds wait, for all of 10% extra compared to the others.

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Thats because they didnt increase the CD by 10%, (Which was 12 seconds) but instead increased it by another minute.
Plus the idea doesnt work too well, when all bosses have TB times lined up for a different timing than sentinel. In short, the other -30%s should have been shorter to compensate.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

Why do they need an additional 5 seconds longer

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Based on current design, they usually dont. But thats on SE not actually making content to fit their idea, not the idea of a longer lasting CD. (but you're right that its still a fair argument for the current build of the game)

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

So first off, there is only Three forms of damage mitigation in this game where this discussion is concerned, damage reduction skills (Standard tank CDs), HP based shields, and damage reduction applied to the boss (Reprisal, Addle, Feint). Tank invulns exist, but they're whatever. Damage reduction, personally they are easier to balance, no need for "bells and ribbons".

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Both over simplified, and misunderstanding of those mechanics/issues. Lowering an enemies dmg through a buff or debuff is essentially the same thing. What is different is the trigger requirements, not the mitigation type. (Just as invulnerability is a -X% skill too, where the % is 100% as long as the requirement is met.)
The next part being about "Whats in the game" as that makes it sound like nothing else can exist within the way the game currently treats mitigation. But this is me assuming your intent, so I'll give that the benefit of the doubt.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

HP based shields, are incredibly difficult to balance against standard damage reduction, as damage intake increases, their ability to mitigate lessens if the hp doesn't meet the same scale of increase. So on undergeared tanks is becomes a detriment while it's effect duration also ends a lot sooner than the standard damage reduction skills.

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This is why we've been saying -X% of dmg taken is a broken as heck mechanic. (Ever since 2.0) This should never have been the way mitigation was handled. It should have been +X% of a stat YOU have. Such as defense/m.def. (Plus those buffs needed to be a LOT higher than a measly +20% that foresight gave)

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

Damage reduction debuff, at 30% will be rediculously broken on raidbusters and more often than not pointless in dungeon content, unless it's AoE, and then making it even more broken in Savage and Ultimate fights with multiple enemies.

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Mostly agree with this. The only exception requires something this game doesnt have, so no point in me talking about it lol. (But the reason i bother to quote this, is because its possible to balance around.)

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

I do however think tanks should be differentiated through playstyle, instead of by having similar defensive toolkits.

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Depending on what that entails, this is mostly how I feel the game should be made. But I feel we have different opinions on what this means.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

This is pointless, unless Bulwark was guaranteed damage reduction, it's a terrible skill, RNG is this game is pretty bad

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Persoanlly I loved having filler mitigation on auto attacks, BUT I do agree its not needed. BUT thats an issue on the design. The only damage that matters in endgame, are tank busters.
That shouldnt be the case, and is why I would want the skill back. (Of course I'd like pressing it anyways, even if its just lame auto attacks)
So its fair for you to say its useless, but then again, Ive felt that SE has dropped the ball when it comes to tanking in this game.

I only speak of damage mitigation outside of tank invulns in the game currently, since SE haven't looked for a means outside of these to mitigate damage, and yes debuff to the boss is virtually the same, only if I'm not mistaken which maybe I am, debuff to the boss does not incur the multiplicative effect as stacking defensive cooldowns. I don't mean to oversimplify it either, but the long and short of it, is that, granted, I did forget about Foresight, but then again that hasn't been in the game for over 2 years now. Foresight was pretty underwhelming, though wasn't as bad at the end of an expansion once it had a bit more defense to scale off of.

As for playstyle I mean, probably more just for WAR and DRK in all honesty, need reworked into less of a copy pasta of PLD's requiescat. Actually add more complexity back to the jobs, at the minute WAR is quite boring to play, and the gauranteed crit DH just makes it a pain in the ass for gearing it melding-wise. While DRK, they just can't make up their minds, it feels like they just pass it round the office, with different people taking turns with it. the lack of Dark Arts spam is nice, but just feels like they've failed to build upon it's foundations in comparison to PLD.

As for filler mitigation I do miss it, I did like using bulwark...but as filler mitigation on autos, and on dungeon trash, paired with awareness. Personally still feel PLD is missing that one weak, but still good as a filler CD for autos. As bad as Anticipation was, would still press anyways because why not. Still look to make the most out of rampart and sentinel, E3s you can use rampart and sentinel freely as fluff mitigation for the first half ot the fight, since immunities cover at least 3/4s of the rip currents, all four with WAR.

Tank responsibilties have gotten a lot easier over the last few years. Think outside of ultimates, the last heavy tank responsiblities died in HW. Still not to say I don't enjoy tanking in this game, but I have noticed it has gotten a lot easier especially in this expac.

WAR
Brutal Swing - return
Stuns target.
Duration: 5s
Recast 25s

Foresight - return
Reduces damage taken by 20%.
Duration: 20s
Additional effects: Parry is increased to 50% for every 10-rage parry is increased by 5% for a maximum of 100%

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GNB-

Reverse Strike - SE has to have some GB animations lying around, to use for a Stun animation
Stuns target.
Duration: 5s
Recast 25s

Anticipation - return
Reduces damage taken by 20%.
Duration: 20s
Additional effects: All Weapon Skills have a cure potency of 150

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DRK
Low Blow-return
Stuns target.
Duration: 5s
Recast: 25s

Shadow Skin-return
Reduces damage taken by 20%.
Duration: 20s
Additional effects: Grants self the effect of Shadow Skin, restoring HP upon effect duration expiration.
Cure Potency: 1500
or it can grant a regen during Shadow Skin duration.
Cure Potency: 300
Duration: 18s
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PLD
Shield Swipe - return
Stuns target.
Duration: 5s
Recast: 25s

Rampart - return
Reduces damage taken by 20%.
Duration: 20s
Additional effects: Oath increase by 5 for every successful block

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Role Actions removed
Low Blow, Rampart

Role Actions returning
Awareness- critical damage still exist and we should still have a way to defeat it
Nullifies chance of suffering critical damage.
Duration: 25s
Recast: 120s

Convalescence- much needed, healers output seems to be lacking for some reason, nothing wrong with a little boost
Increases own HP recovery via healing magic by 20%.
Duration: 20s
Recast: 120s

Also voicing my opinion that any changes toward diversity should be done to playstyles and offensive kits, not defensive kits. You will never get tank balance this good again if you make their defensive cooldowns "diverse" I promise you. Many MMOs have tried, and this game doesn't even have skill trees for every class to fall back on. DPS is so much easier to diversify and keep relatively balanced. If one tank can survive a boss mechanic and the other one can't with his kit, THEY AREN'T GETTING BROUGHT, PERIOD, END OF STORY. You guys keep saying that balance shouldn't require homogenization, but in the case of mitigation specifically with how this game works? It absolutely does. Consider how much DRKs hate Living Dead, and that's one of the more "diverse" cooldowns for defense.