Thought about RDM's utility

I like the idea of changing Dualcast into 'reduces cast times by 5s'.
This will have no marked effect on its core rotation, but will nerf Verraise into giving it a 5s cast time minimum, and forcing its use with Swiftcast.
This'll help it's 'raise tax' situation, and allow them to increase dps a little or make Embolden affect all damage.

I don't agree raises should be a role skill or given to BLM. It's useless without Swiftcast and Swiftcast is too important to BLM rotation already.

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

I already addressed that. All role members should be similar or within reason in Damage output and share the same core defensive utility. Any extra utility needs to be good enough to use, but not so good as to threaten the raid presence of the other same role members. The role party bonus should be what clenches parties having a standard comp.

Balance RDPS vs PDPS. Then Balance Defensive utility across the role. Let the role bonus sort out parties to the standard comp.

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If they remove defensive utility from balancing with offensive it’d work, but they seem set on leaving this to exist sadly.

I’m starting to think RDM place is intended, it’s a job which primary use is a progression method for casters. And we are suspose to move onto another caster once that phase has ended.

Seeing verraise come through to the next expansion. And it’s dps taxed by it even harder kinda proves the direction of the job.

I don’t rly understand the concept behind creating a job which isn’t ment to participate in end game. But it would atleast appear that it is intended.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

This game isnt built to Support such a Support job.

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DNC seems to be doing alright.

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We need to stop being taxed for Verraise and Vercure

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Agreed, because they're not THAT impressive. My point is if we're going to be taxed at all, I'd like to get something FOR those taxes that we're already paying. If they want our damage to be low like DNC, then we need to be able to buff like them.

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Engagement is Actually needed for RDM Optimisation, it'll be a DPS Nerf to remove it.

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Engagement is 'needed' because Displacement's implementation is terrible. It's skill bloat. Easy fix: Corps-a-corps and Displacement now do the same damage, share a cooldown, and have 2 charges. Manafication restores both charges. Done.

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

They should move Engagement to 40 and leave Vercure and Verraise alone.

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They should move Engagement to the dumpster; it's only needed because of bad Displacement is. I will never support RDM getting it's raise 52 levels after SMN. If such a big deal is made of Vercure and Verraise being why our personal DPS is so low, then we shouldn't have to wait that long to get them.

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If they want to give us more defensive utility we should get it at 72. We are late bloomers in that respect. I'd happily take a single target ogcd heal like a buffed erase or for Vercure to get a GCD rebate on a cool down.

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I think 72 would be a good time for something like Verprotect, or Reflect. SMN is pumping out Phoenix-medica every 2ish minutes, and it's a little annoying how much they get in on our utility racket, without paying any of the personal DPS tax~

I will repeat what i said in others posts, some make embolden seem more powerful then it actually is.. It should be physical + magical dmg boost.

Verraise is simply an excuse that still gets used and will remain for reasoning behind RM having lower damage. (because sure let us forget smn also can raise..)
Compaired to other jobs i play the level 80 dungeons (just as example) feels somewhat painful playing as RM, dmg buffs are in fact what is needed.
The job seems to be going same route as last expansion, every job will see multiple changes until they decide to perhaps look at or implement any sort of change to Red Mage.

The question that every seems to dance around: Does RDM utilities equal to the damage negated? Are raid groups snatching up RDM because they offer Verraise and Vercure? If the answer is now, than RDM needs a DPS buff or other raid utility added.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

The job needs dps buffs instead

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In general, yes. In terms of DPS buff abilities, I'm split. I think the rDPS from buffers needs to exceed the rDPS of selfish jobs so long as the buffers are also DPS jobs. Or else why take them? On the other hand, if all of your "support utility" is just a roundabout way to add DPS, why have it? Why not just make everyone selfish at that point (to me, the answer why not is to avoid homogenity, but that's also why I think non-DPS support is neccesary on some jobs).

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Originally Posted by Drayos

...it’s utility so far is so powerful it’s a weight on the entire job design. More needs to go into making RDM wanted in farm groups. It’s place in progression and more are already strong enough.

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No, it's not. Square Enix thinks it is, but in practice Verraise and Vercure are not useful enough in Savage Prog to make RDM valued. Or else you wouldn't see PUG practice and clear groups excluding RDM or seeing BLM get preferred for prog instead. There's a bunch of threads about this. These skills are not sufficient for prog because they don't do enough to actually keep the party alive. Verraise comes too late for that, and a single target, middling potency, heavily mana inefficient GCD heal is subpar.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

This game isn't built to Support such a Support job. Healers have waay more then enough healing to deal with healing alone, RDMs application to being a Defensive Utility will leave it on the bench. we need to stop being taxed for Verraise and Vercure not increase the quantity of things being taxed. as it stands we'll be the benched caster for the expansion if something doesn't change.

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As a healer, I'm all for that damage going up to the point I really want a healer-aid in the party for prog. Or having a healer aid strong enough to make transitioning into solo-healing for farm comfortable. Also, healing in this game is largely oGCD based. Every hypothetical oGCD support ability RDM could bring powerful enough to negate needing to use a GCD increases healer DPS.

All it takes to make defensive support on ALL jobs and roles more valued is to stop making healing so brainless outside of like, one or two phases each in end-Savage and Ultimate fights.

In a different direction, if healers get more engaging non-healing downtime that needing to heal could interrupt, that ALSO increases the value of defensive support hybrids in tanks and DPS.

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

In regards to class balance I always see it like this:

You need to balance all the classes within a role, then you need to balance all the roles that compete with each other (Namely DPS.)

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Technically yes, but you also need distinctions if you want to justify having multiple different sub-roles within a role and multiple jobs in a sub-role. Distinctions BEYOND aesthetic and what order buttons are pressed in. Otherwise you're just generating quantity for quantity's sake.

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

When it comes to offensive balance, the only numbers that need tweaked are the RDPS + PDPS of one member of that role with the RDPS + PDPS of the other members of that role.

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To an extent, yes. It should be pretty close. I think there is some room for putting a job behind for defensive considerations, but only SLIGHTLY given the priority put on DPS and ONLY then if the defensive utility is actually, provably powerful for clearing (which Verraise really isn't given current design).

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

Where SE starts to go astray in my eyes is why they try to balance Offense + Defense vs Offense + Defense. Classes don't need to completely homogenize, but if a defining feature emerges from the role, then the entire role needs an equivalent. An example being again Shield Shamba and Tactician. They bring that same core universal Defensive buff with a long duration on a 3 minute cool down.

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That is literally completely homogenizing. If every job in a given role has the exact same capabilities, and the only difference is what colored lights they generate and order buttons are pressed in for the DPS rotation, why even have multiple jobs? You could just have one with a few purely cosmetic customization options.

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

SE needs to change the way they balance roles. Core Non-offensive utility needs to be shared amongst the role. PDPS and RDPS should be the only factors in balancing Offense within a role. The party bonus is what should keep all the roles desireable in raids even if their DPS alone are similar, the diverse role choice boosting the party's DPS with its bonus.

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So yeah, heavily disagree with this. Non-DPS utility shouldn't be a huge factor in determining DPS, because enrages and farm exist to keep the jobs that give a few extra % DPS played. But we shouldn't eliminate non-DPS support abilities or make them cookie cutter across a role. All that does is further homogenize and further constrict design space. No DPS should have irreplaceable support, but it should be possible for one job to carry one type of utility that it takes two others to meet, in exchange for being deficient in another type of non-DPS utility.

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As for DPS support abilities, buffers ideally need to have a higher rDPS than non-buffers, but the non-buffers need significantly higher pDPS to justify taking them (I've seen it tossed around that BLM, SAM, and MCH should get a trait that boosts the effect of others job's buffs on them). This may require current damage support skills to become stronger in order to hit that balance marker.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

That is literally completely homogenizing. If every job in a given role has the exact same capabilities, and the only difference is what colored lights they generate and order buttons are pressed in for the DPS rotation, why even have multiple jobs? You could just have one with a few purely cosmetic customization options.

So yeah, heavily disagree with this. Non-DPS utility shouldn't be a huge factor in determining DPS, because enrages and farm exist to keep the jobs that give a few extra % DPS played. But we shouldn't eliminate non-DPS support abilities or make them cookie cutter across a role. All that does is further homogenize and further constrict design space. No DPS should have irreplaceable support, but it should be possible for one job to carry one type of utility that it takes two others to meet, in exchange for being deficient in another type of non-DPS utility.

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Going from "Core Non-offensive utility needs to be shared amongst the role." to " we shouldn't eliminate non-DPS support abilities or make them cookie cutter across a role" is really shifting what i'm suggesting. As long as all members of the role brings an answer to the defining support, even if in a different form, then balance is still achieved. The tank invulnerabilities are an example of this. Old Mages Ballad and MP Promotion.

Abilities that don't define the role, like mantra, Everlasting Flight and curing Waltz are weak enough that they don't have a considerable impact on job composition amongst the role, but still add flavor/ limited utility to the role.

Raise is one of these skills that define the role. It warps the dps balance its so important to it. That needs to see an adjustment. Raise on a 2 minute cool down with 2 charges seems pretty balanced to me. Call it homogenization, but a Role sets a standard for what that role should be able to do. If 1/3 members can't use the defining feature of the role, the role needs adjusted or the odd man out needs removed from the role.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

If they remove defensive utility from balancing with offensive it’d work, but they seem set on leaving this to exist sadly.

I’m starting to think RDM place is intended, it’s a job which primary use is a progression method for casters. And we are suspose to move onto another caster once that phase has ended.

Seeing verraise come through to the next expansion. And it’s dps taxed by it even harder kinda proves the direction of the job.

I don’t rly understand the concept behind creating a job which isn’t ment to participate in end game. But it would atleast appear that it is intended.

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No other role work like this. Casters should work like all other DPS classes. I get that you can play whatever role you want, but some groups have a negative stigma against RDM outside of progression.

You either have more personal DPS or utility that raises DPS for the group. You don’t for instance choose DRG for progression because it has a special utility and lower damage and then switch to SAM once your group clears the fight. I think they should switch to the ranged DPS model. Give RDM raid utility that boosts party damage so they can be the DNC of casters. It makes sense. BLM is the MCH with high damage low utility, SMN will be the BRD with medium damage medium utility.

Aside from verraise and vercure, embolden is one garbage utility.

"Increases own magic damage dealt by 10% and physical damage dealt by nearby party members by 10%. Both effects are reduced by 20% every 4s."

Let's break it down. Shall we?

1. The user receives magic damage boost ONLY
2. The party receive physical damage boost ONLY
3. Effect gradually decreases by 20%

What kind of sadistic person creates such punishing buff? If the boost is 50%, then I can understand the trade offs. A 10% selective boost that grows weaker and weaker, lasts a mere 20s with a 2 min cd is a joke.

Good if you are a physical party member, but what about tanks that use spell also? Healers? Caster brothers? Well too bad so sad.

A job with low damage with 2 utilities that isn't needed (verraise and vercure) if everyone do their job correctly plus one garbage utility (embolden). If this isn't the one to cross out in your priority list, then who else is?

Using verraise and vercure as a an excuse to make RDM deal mediocre damage is such a bad decision. They are nice to have in most contents, but in harder end game content where people are expected to avoid death as much as possible; unfortunately such excuse is the reason for RDM to lag behind every other DPS jobs. It's just sad seeing people justify it.