BLU for Duty Finder and Raids! Show your support!

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, there is a big difference between not using a skill you have and not having the skill. Like I said, you can't blame a lvl30 BLU for not using Eruption, even if a synced lvl 50 BLU would have it learned and would use it.

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Eruption should be available at level 20, will be part of the hotfix on Jan.24 ;)

Anyway, my point was that from my point of view why they're not using something is irrelevant.

The RDM being a burden because he can't be bothered using all his tools and the BLU being a burden because he couldn't be bothered to learn the relevant skills are both equally as annoying. The former already exists.

As maybe the biggest defender of limited blu and limited jobs in general, I will admit that this implementation of blu sucks booty. Why it is bad has almost nothing to do with it being limited though and everything to do with sticking half the skills of the job in instances and giving them a low drop rate. Also has something to do with not getting any skills out of dungeons that are worth a damn (i.e. I am level 44 and nothing is beating out 1k needles spam, though rams voice > dragons voice gets close). I'd honestly rather be doing Eureka and that is the gravest insult I could possibly levy.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

I'd honestly rather be doing Eureka and that is the gravest insult I could possibly levy.

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SE be like

https://media.giphy.com/media/3ofT5E...vVkc/giphy.gif

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Any BLU choosing to not equip skills has every right to be kicked from a duty, no different to kicking someone for playing bad and not using half their kit.

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Exactly! I detest the "But the BLUE MAGE COULD HAVE NO SPELLS AND DROOL ON HIS KEYBOARD SO IT CANT BE A REAL BOY" excuse. I once had a tank in a Keeper of the Lake run who, for whatever reason, did not like how our Scholar was healing. To be fair I have no idea if the guy was a Scholar main and the healer really was "doing it wrong" or if he just felt like being an ass because he threatened the healer that if they didn't do things his way he was going to put on a low-level item set and troll. Which I think is exactly what he did as he died again and again. I didn't demand all Paladins be removed from DF, we kicked him, got another tank and moved on. I don't need Square holding my hand and playing my game for me.

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Originally Posted by Elerus

Exactly! I detest the "But the BLUE MAGE COULD HAVE NO SPELLS AND DROOL ON HIS KEYBOARD SO IT CANT BE A REAL BOY" excuse. I once had a tank in a Keeper of the Lake run who, for whatever reason, did not like how our Scholar was healing. To be fair I have no idea if the guy was a Scholar main and the healer really was "doing it wrong" or if he just felt like being an ass because he threatened the healer that if they didn't do things his way he was going to put on a low-level item set and troll. Which I think is exactly what he did as he died again and again. I didn't demand all Paladins be removed from DF, we kicked him, got another tank and moved on. I don't need Square holding my hand and playing my game for me.

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This argument could literally be levied against any job. The restriction, at least in this sense, is arbitrary, and rectifying it would require no additional work by SE. The community would police this just fine.

Make it a real job. Limited jobs defeat the purpose of an MMO.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Can you provide a quote where SE mentioned BLU is designed to be overpowered and capable of soloing EX primals? Because being felt promised something that was never promised is rather silly. Being upset that it was advertised as a solo play experience and having to group up for spells I can get behind that argument but to be upset that they aren't OP and can't solo Primals "as promised" when that was never promised....

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But the soloing was promised, and with so many skills locked behind EX primals, the only way to meet that promise would be if we were OP enough to solo them.

Or the better alternative would have been to not put the learnable skills there in the first place. If the job is supposed to be solo oriented, as SE themselves has said, then we should at the very least be able to learn all of its skills solo. The fact that we can't makes it in fact the least solo oriented job in the entire game. Being able to go into dungeons in a pre-formed party is fine so long as it's an optional thing for people wanting to play with their friends. It shouldn't be a mandatory part of learning a solo job.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

But the soloing was promised, and with so many skills locked behind EX primals, the only way to meet that promise would be if we were OP enough to solo them.

Or the better alternative would have been to not put the learnable skills there in the first place. If the job is supposed to be solo oriented, as SE themselves has said, then we should at the very least be able to learn all of its skills solo. The fact that we can't makes it in fact the least solo oriented job in the entire game. Being able to go into dungeons in a pre-formed party is fine so long as it's an optional thing for people wanting to play with their friends. It shouldn't be a mandatory part of learning a solo job.

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I feel like if they had wanted BLU to really be solo the Carnival should have been the main focus of how you level / get your spells. All of your spells should have been gotten from the Carnival and instead of exp you "leveled" based on how far into the Carnival you were. Not make the Carnival end game since I have all, well... most, of my spells now why do I need to do the carnival?

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

I feel like if they had wanted BLU to really be solo the Carnival should have been the main focus of how you level / get your spells. All of your spells should have been gotten from the Carnival and instead of exp you "leveled" based on how far into the Carnival you were. Not make the Carnival end game since I have all, well... most, of my spells now why do I need to do the carnival?

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Well, I like that there's a significant open world part as well (simply because I think this game is a bit short on open world content). But it would have been nice if progression (both leveling and learning spells) was a mix of open world and carnival stuff rather than a mix of open world and group dungeons/trials/raids, followed by carnival just tacked on at the end.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Well, I like that there's a significant open world part as well (simply because I think this game is a bit short on open world content). But it would have been nice if progression (both leveling and learning spells) was a mix of open world and carnival stuff rather than a mix of open world and group dungeons/trials/raids, followed by carnival just tacked on at the end.

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I think they could have had the nice open world aspect by placing skill acquisition there- not by making a huge portion of the game and skills (duty finder for dungeons) off limits. They control where you get skills- and a ton are in dungeons and trials and you cannot use the DF... it's like an evil genie granted someone's wish in a nefarious way. It's almost funny.

After hitting level 50 and learning all 49 spells, I believe I can safely say that Blue Mage as a job has the basic skeleton there. There IS a rotation, it uses a good amount of your 24 spells, and it's balanced, slightly underpowered at worst, against other jobs relative to level 50 or so. There's a few problem spells (white wind, maybe peculiar light) that may need to be tuned or have differing/reduced party effects, but I believe the easiest solution going forward for removing many of the restrictions of Blue Mage is to simply allow some spells to only be used in unsycned instances and Masked Carnivale. The suicides, instant kills, etc. This would not "break" unsynced content any more than it already is by virtue of it being unsynced.

It's either that, or, by actually using more dev time and resources, listen to the other half of suggestions and change some overworld design, fight mechanics, stat weights, etc. and make them overpowered and broken enough to actually solo primals and such by themselves as people thought was advertised.

Either way, whether Blue Mage dies off, the content schedule for it remains repeats of this iteration, they listen to fan feedback, what have you, it's my understanding that the vast majority might all agree on at least 5 points:
1. Give Blue Mage a limit break.
2. Allow Blue Mage to access dungeons w/ squadrons.
3. Allow Blue Mage to access various content upon their level 60 cap, such as Palace of the Dead, maps, etc.
4. Develop a PvP Blue Mage.
5. Reduce the amount of spells that require being carried through content.

My personal hope is of course that they manage to incorporate feedback from the players and remove many of the restrictions each subsequent level cap, but at the least I think these 5 points are shared by a majority of the playerbase at this point.

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Originally Posted by Valdegarde

1. Give Blue Mage a limit break.

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I was honestly surprised and more than a bit disappointed when I realized it doesn't have an LB. I can't even say it's because of things like "it doesn't even have a category" because it does. I'm not even going to bring shared gear as an argument, but it shares role actions with Caster DPS as well as appears under that category in the character screen in-game. BLU is defined as a ranged magic DPS and therefore should have access to that role's LB.

And I can't think of any reason why it shouldn't. It can join parties just fine and its actions contribute to the LB build-up. If it's supposed to be so broken that it's banned from normal matchmaking, what difference would giving it an LB make? It certainly won't break it more, it basically already has a healer LB every GCD in White Wind (one that becomes more efficient with every subsequent cast, exponentially so). If anything, its LB will be the most balanced thing about it.

Two reasons I can think of why it doesn't have LB:
1. the behind-the-scenes calculations for the damage rely on party total gear stats, and because BLU basically ignores WD, it borked this. But if they already went to such lengths to create BLU, I don't see what would be so hard about tweaking the caster LB to factor in BLU's stats properly. It's not like they'd have to make too many new assets for LB1 and LB2. Which leads us to...
2. They creates the Masked Carnivale in its entirety (willingness to invest), locked half of BLU's kit behind party content (access to LB), but they couldn't be bothered with giving it an LB3. Not like it would need it in Shiva Ex or anything

Okay, got all my skills bar 3, and beat the masked carnival, my final thoughts on this version of BLU implementation:

That was it? Really? Now I don't play this game no life number of hours, but its Saturday and I'm already done. Also to all of those people telling me the point of the job was the masked carnival and that was its endgame, not the regular endgame: these were some glorified guildhests that took 2 hours to beat, only times I died were to gimmicks or me self destructing too early.

Now that I got all the skills and could bring act up for myself, there's no reason why this should be excluded from the DF, it doesn't deal more damage than your average damage dealer at 50, and actually fits the role of a support mage quite well. This Limited Job idea sucked in its implementation, and at least for this level 50 blu, an implementation for the DF is seemingly easy

Yeah fix the job. We want to be able to play blue anywhere. Limited job is a terrible idea, mistake and bad use of resources.

I'm disappointed in the entire limited job concept tbh I see no reason why it couldn't have been made a normal job from the start.

I love my blue mage but tbh if they dont change the limited part it's going to die cause blue mages power is like super cool and every update equals new spells to learn from new monsters like come on it's like freaking great to grind and do dungeons with other players and not be locked out and get better blue mage gear to match up alot of people of course say hey all of the powers are watered down from what I read but blue mage can absolutely go somewhere and do a power rework to not be so watered down

I still love how BLU is designed right now. Remember that we will get at least 2 level increases in the next expansion, and that it might be on pair with the main content level (I guess they're waiting for 6.0 to do it, would make sense).

So far I like the idea that we can get true jobs instead of the watered down ones we have right now at level 70, like Warlock with a pet (SMN), Raise Mage (RDM), Fire Mage (BLM) and so on. Jobs that were a classic in the FF series, but FFXIV broke them to fit raid content.


I hope that jobs like BLU can end up changing the battle system and the overworld to something better to fit new ones like Beastmaster.

(Sorry for my wording, I just love to post in this thread)

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

So far I like the idea that we can get true jobs instead of the watered down ones we have right now at level 70, like Warlock with a pet (SMN), Raise Mage (RDM), Fire Mage (BLM) and so on. Jobs that were a classic in the FF series, but FFXIV broke them to fit raid content.

I hope that jobs like BLU can end up changing the battle system and the overworld to something better to fit new ones like Beastmaster.

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With all due respect, are you sure you wouldn't rather just be playing an entirely different game?

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Originally Posted by Valdegarde

With all due respect, are you sure you wouldn't rather just be playing an entirely different game?

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Or he likes BLU in this game and wants more of that kind of content. That argument can be spun around "Well if you don't like BLU in this game maybe you'd rather play BLU a different game?".

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

Or he likes BLU in this game and wants more of that kind of content. That argument can be spun around "Well if you don't like BLU in this game maybe you'd rather play BLU a different game?".

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I think the poster you quoted more meant the dislike for XIV's interpretation of the other jobs.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I think the poster you quoted more meant the dislike for XIV's interpretation of the other jobs.

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As well as repeated shows of disdain towards the game's overworld. So, you know, several core elements that make this game what it currently is.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

Or he likes BLU in this game and wants more of that kind of content. That argument can be spun around "Well if you don't like BLU in this game maybe you'd rather play BLU a different game?".

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I think the point is that many people who support this version of BLU keep saying how the other jobs are boring anyway and that the content they participate in that BLU is locked out of is also boring.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

Or he likes BLU in this game and wants more of that kind of content. That argument can be spun around "Well if you don't like BLU in this game maybe you'd rather play BLU a different game?".

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I'm honestly not even referring to Blue Mage in my critique, I feel you might be projecting a little bit. I'm referring to this sweeping dissatisfaction towards none of the jobs being "true" and the entire battle system being broken. I wonder if this person might prefer something like Final Fantasy Explorers, which is still multiplayer but with jobs balanced for the overworld and such.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I think the poster you quoted more meant the dislike for XIV's interpretation of the other jobs.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

As well as repeated shows of disdain towards the game's overworld. So, you know, several core elements that make this game what it currently is.

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Originally Posted by TheHeavenAbyss

I think the point is that many people who support this version of BLU keep saying how the other jobs are boring anyway and that the content they participate in that BLU is locked out of is also boring.

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Originally Posted by Valdegarde

I'm honestly not even referring to Blue Mage in my critique, I feel you might be projecting a little bit. I'm referring to this sweeping dissatisfaction towards none of the jobs being "true" and the entire battle system being broken. I wonder if this person might prefer something like Final Fantasy Explorers, which is still multiplayer but with jobs balanced for the overworld and such.

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Except...a job that resonated with what he was wanting finally happened and he wants more of that and perhaps for the game to expand into that territory as it goes on.

So @Valdegarde in particular, you state that person said the entire battle system is broken but I just checked their post history, and unless I missed something, I didn't see anything of that sort. They claimed that Summoner is broken in the context it's nothing like it usually is known for which was a common complaint in 2.0 and 3.0 days. Perhaps incorrect wording but the intent is kind of true being that Yoshida himself has stated reasons why SMN isn't the SMN we all know several times throughout the years. You can criticize something, even dislike certain aspects of something without having to drop a game entirely.

So idk, suggesting for him to play another game for criticizing this one just felt weird to me.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

So far I like the idea that we can get true jobs instead of the watered down ones we have right now at level 70, like Warlock with a pet (SMN), Raise Mage (RDM), Fire Mage (BLM) and so on. Jobs that were a classic in the FF series, but FFXIV broke them to fit raid content.

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Sometimes I feel like FFXIV is a very strange game that is full of people who don't actually like FFXIV, but play it because its the only modern Final Fantasy with a high fantasy aesthetic. Everything, from the complaints you express about not wanting a "generic caster" with a "generic rotation" makes it seem like you'd rather not be playing a tab target MMO, given that non-rotational classes can't exist in such an environment (hence how we ended with BLU still having a rotation, albeit an extremely simplistic one, and something like 75% of its kit being worthless).

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Originally Posted by RadicalPesto

Sometimes I feel like FFXIV is a very strange game that is full of people who don't actually like FFXIV, but play it because its the only modern Final Fantasy with a high fantasy aesthetic.

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Not an unreasonable assertion. I'm a huge Warhammer 40k fan and Gamesworkshops relationship with the video games market is . . . mixed at best. They farm out the license in a "shotgun" approach to game developers, handing out sections of their IP to anyone. As a result there have been some awful, truly terrible, Warhammer and Warhammer 40k games. But what of it? If I want to play a Warhammer IP game then GW has a lock on the market. I either play their offering or go pound sand.

True, I could play another fantasy or science-fiction setting, but while there are excellent offerings out there nothing quite compares to the depth and lore of Gamesworkshop's settings. Like, if a person wants to play a Final Fantasy MMO, and it being FF is the critical consideration, then Square could crap in a box and they would have to accept it or play nothing. Captive audience.

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Originally Posted by RadicalPesto

Sometimes I feel like FFXIV is a very strange game that is full of people who don't actually like FFXIV, but play it because its the only modern Final Fantasy with a high fantasy aesthetic. Everything, from the complaints you express about not wanting a "generic caster" with a "generic rotation" makes it seem like you'd rather not be playing a tab target MMO, given that non-rotational classes can't exist in such an environment (hence how we ended with BLU still having a rotation, albeit an extremely simplistic one, and something like 75% of its kit being worthless).

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its pretty true
but even those people who continue to hate on the game always keep there sub up
probably just so they have something more to complain about

but the irony here is that Blue is also watered down to where it cant really function to well

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Originally Posted by Valdegarde

With all due respect, are you sure you wouldn't rather just be playing an entirely different game?

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With all due respect, are you sure you wouldn't rather just be playing another job?

Maybe we don't want another generic job with a generic rotation that destroys the Job's essence.

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Originally Posted by RadicalPesto

Sometimes I feel like FFXIV is a very strange game that is full of people who don't actually like FFXIV, but play it because its the only modern Final Fantasy with a high fantasy aesthetic. Everything, from the complaints you express about not wanting a "generic caster" with a "generic rotation" makes it seem like you'd rather not be playing a tab target MMO, given that non-rotational classes can't exist in such an environment (hence how we ended with BLU still having a rotation, albeit an extremely simplistic one, and something like 75% of its kit being worthless).

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I play since 1.0 and I love this game. That's why I like being critic about it, because I love it and I want this game to improve.

The actual job system can be fun and balanced, but the jobs are badly represented as I mentioned before.
SMN is a joke, it could be called something else. BLM is a fire mage. RDM is not RDM, it's just a caster with a placebo cure and a raise.


For once, we got a chance to play a job like it's meant to be played. Let's not waste this chance for once.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

For once, we got a chance to play a job like it's meant to be played.

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At the expense of being able to play in the main content of this game (the one you do to progress).

I don't mind a new direction for jobs, but not at this price.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

I play since 1.0 and I love this game..

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Nooooooooow I get it.
Stockholm syndrome.

Blue mage weirdly enough feels like it would have really benefited from the old idea of 'class for overworld, jobs for instanced content' split that never really panned out.

Animancer: limited-class, bonus xp from mobs, no duty finder, all abilities are learned in the world.

Blue Mage: unlocks once your animancer spell book is complete, has some set abilities, less freedom to build how you like, can use duty finder, gets expanded spellbook with new abilities to learn from instances.

I'd have Animancer and Blue Mage spellbooks be shared, you can take your job stone off and still use abilities you learned as a BLU. Option to try and break content with crazy builds would still be there for friends in pre-mades.


I enjoyed initial BLU, the leveling to 30, the learning stuff from mobs, that could have been kept without preventing BLU from being a real job.
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(Animancer is just a name, class could be called whatever, Blue Magician if you like :p.)

You love XIV. You just hate its interpretation of some of its jobs. Fair enough but I wonder if you really think this is how BLU should be-an underpowered weak generic caster that only very rarely uses spells beyond a few of its heavier hitters, of which are themselves fairly weak.

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Originally Posted by TheHeavenAbyss

At the expense of being able to play in the main content of this game (the one you do to progress).

I don't mind a new direction for jobs, but not at this price.

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You have other jobs to do that, nobody is forcing you.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Nooooooooow I get it.
Stockholm syndrome.

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Not even close.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

You love XIV. You just hate its interpretation of some of its jobs. Fair enough but I wonder if you really think this is how BLU should be-an underpowered weak generic caster that only very rarely uses spells beyond a few of its heavier hitters, of which are themselves fairly weak.

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The actual BLU is how it's meant to be. The problem is that he doesn't fit the overworld of this game, and that's why they made it a limited job.

Now the thing is to find ways to fit new combat styles instead of the generic "rotation only" formula that we got in the endga,e. Wich is fun and balanced, but I would like to play new stuff wth different mechanics, and BLU seems like a new logic step forward there.

I guess we have to wait long (maybe 6.0?) til BLU can reach the max level and maybe fit into the overworld (and who knows if new "limited" jobs will follow as well)

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

You have other jobs to do that, nobody is forcing you.

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Well then, why even ask for new jobs? Let's just get more glorified mini games!

Maybe this is not the case with you, but many people like new jobs here and there to play the main content of this game with them, not to leave them parked once they've done their collection quests and go back to other classes when it's time to play the actual main content.

Hence why people asked if you really do like this game. The way ffxiv is built, at its very core, there will be a rotation of abilities. Even BLU as it is now has a rotation of abilities; you can choose to be suboptimal but you can choose that with any job.

Playing new stuff with different mechanics, your best bet is another game and there's nothing wrong with that. Personally speaking I'm playing Kingdom Hearts as a break from XIV.

And who got time for blue mage to be an actual mini game it might be cute for the momment but blue mage is an actual class not a limited one and a great class with potential if they play it right blue mage can actually go far but how their mind set is playing it when there is less content for every other class....hey play masked carnival....trick please...

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Hence why people asked if you really do like this game. The way ffxiv is built, at its very core, there will be a rotation of abilities. Even BLU as it is now has a rotation of abilities; you can choose to be suboptimal but you can choose that with any job.

Playing new stuff with different mechanics, your best bet is another game and there's nothing wrong with that. Personally speaking I'm playing Kingdom Hearts as a break from XIV.

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I like this game, but I like new stuff as well. I don't want this game to get stagnant.

BLU has lots of skills, and some of them are "suboptimal" because this game doesn't care about elemental weakness outside carnival. That's why it would need a rework of the overworld, but that would mean lots of changes (like BLM changes, wich his main damage spell is only Fire, instead of the true BLM that controls more elements).

Maybe there's a way to fit it, but the game is not ready to fit a job with 49+ skills atm, and it would be a huge mistake to water it down to 24 basic skills just to fit the actual combat system, so that's why they had to limit it. It'll get to level 60 eventually, and lv70 as well.

There's hope that BLU will equal the level of the rest of jobs some day and be a normal job instead of a limited one, and I hope they do it properly. For now it's just not possible, and I'm patient enough to wait even to 6.0

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Playing new stuff with different mechanics, your best bet is another game and there's nothing wrong with that.

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For sure, which is why I was genuinely trying to offer suggestions, but of course it was taken as offense and thrown back in my face even though I hadn't mentioned Blue Mage at all in that question. I do mean it, for someone who has strong feelings about the classic Final Fantasy jobs existing in some pure form, Final Fantasy Explorers was a nice take on it, including one of my favorite iterations of Blue Mage if one were so inclined.
I do not think FFXIV is necessarily ever going to be FFV-2 or FFT-2 or even FFXI-2, and to wish for that at this point would require an overhaul greater than 1.0 to 2.0. I'm not unsympathetic, I do attempt to understand this point of view, but it's my (subjective) opinion that this would be grounds for another game in the series instead of shoehorning other game's strict versions of jobs into this one. A game which I would very much be looking forward to. (And Bravely Default 3, of course...)

I agree in the desire for this game to not get stagnant. That said, there's only so much things can get shaken up before you essentially have another game. Wanting the overworld to suddenly have elemental affinities to then force a job like BLM to use noncanon spells is where I think that line is. Noncanon because this is XIV first and Final Fantasy second in my eyes; and of course, on Hydaelyn black magic encompasses the elements of ice, thunder and fire in contrast to white magic's earth, wind, and water.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I agree in the desire for this game to not get stagnant. That said, there's only so much things can get shaken up before you essentially have another game. Wanting the overworld to suddenly have elemental affinities to then force a job like BLM to use noncanon spells is where I think that line is. Noncanon because this is XIV first and Final Fantasy second in my eyes; and of course, on Hydaelyn black magic encompasses the elements of ice, thunder and fire in contrast to white magic's earth, wind, and water.

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Not only that, but what about classes that don't even have elements associated with their attacks like almost all melee DPS? The way I see it, adding elemental affinities would create a lot of unfair situations in terms of the usefulness of the different classes. It can be done, but the rework to the game would have to be massive, to the point it would probably stop being the same game gameplay-wise.