#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

Healer's potential damage output is "fine", enrage timers are designed around it. Healers dragging people down in M11S has nothing to do with their potency numbers.

Your main damage source being a single button is the entire issue, because the higher you make the potency of that one button the more dps you lose when you miss a cast of it.
And bad healers miss a whole lot of casts.

---

Giving them more buttons won't fix the missed casts, making their casts do damage fixes their low damage output.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Giving them more buttons won't fix the missed casts, making their casts do damage fixes their low damage output.

---

Sure. Now place an average healer on that position. What they end up doing is, they don't cast anything no matter how 'easy' their buttons are to press, because they're shaking or too stressed to press their buttons proper while mechanics are going out. Better healers? Still 1 button spam, but now they're doing way waaaaaaaaaaay more dps.

This is partly why making their filler nukes stronger ends up widening the disparity: devs HAS to balance this around the assumption that healers will output their 'supposedly easy healer dps output'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Sure. Now place an average healer on that position. What they end up doing is, they don't cast anything no matter how 'easy' their buttons are to press, because they're shaking or too stressed to press their buttons proper while mechanics are going out. Better healers? Still 1 button spam, but now they're doing way waaaaaaaaaaay more dps.

This is partly why making their filler nukes stronger ends up widening the disparity: devs HAS to balance this around the assumption that healers will output their 'supposedly easy healer dps output'.

---

Well they're currently balancing the game around healers doing piss poor damage because their attack potencies are too low.
So there's no one singular fix that solves everything, but I think as a start balancing out the game would be nice.

There is really no justification why Healers should do less damage than Tanks, because neither role is a DPS. So, as a start to fixing things, Healers need to have their base damage pulled up to the same level as Tanks. And if SE is afraid to give Healers more attacks or more gameplay, the only way to do that is increasing potencies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Giving them more buttons won't fix the missed casts, making their casts do damage fixes their low damage output.

---

Except it does...to an extent. Splitting the damage between more spells and abilities means less damage lost per individual cast than right now. Add some DoTs back into the mix that still do their damage while you're not casting any damage spells and we can at least shrink the disparity between good healers and mediocre healers.
Making your filler do 800 potency per cast will mean some healers do tank dps numbers and some do auto attack-only dps numbers, good luck if you get one of those in your party finder when enrage timers are balanced around the former.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Well they're currently balancing the game around healers doing piss poor damage because their attack potencies are too low.
So there's no one singular fix that solves everything, but I think as a start balancing out the game would be nice.

---

I'm inclined to agree with Rein on this one, raising healer dps potencies is not going to help with this problem. Normal content would go faster, yes, and maybe you would feel the fact you're not actually healing less as a result but in higher level content, it wouldn't change the fact that forced damage is carefully calibrated to be barely non-lethal and the resulting healer response of mitigate/shield, top people off and then press dps buttons for the next minute. The result being experienced healers press their dps button by default and perfect their slidecasting, then go "Oh, wups, guess I should mitigate that more" when someone dies. On the other hand, less experienced healers are still going to be paralysed because they either don't know the damage profile is awful or they still actually care about keeping people alive rather than killing the boss.

The way I would fix that problem is to raise damage in normal content so healers actually get trained to heal and in savage adjust the damage profile to do less raidwide damage a lot more often so that healers spend more time doing healing and it feels more manageable which gives newer healers more confidence to press their dps button.

Like I said, there is no one singular fix that would solve every problem.

But it would be a good fix to make Healers damage output comparable to Tanks, even if it is by just boosting potencies. And SE themselves have said they don't want to give Healers more attacks, so the only viable fix IS increasing potency on the one attack we have and the DoT.

If balance breaks the game, the game deserves to be broken.

SE could reduce how punishing it is to miss a GCD attack as a Healer due to needing to Heal, via potencies.

Here's an example: SCH has Broil4 as its filler. Originally, SCH's filler spell, Ruin, was 80p, Broil4 is 320p, literally 4x as much potency. Let's assume the SCH is running 2.50 GCD (base GCD, no spellspeed). If we take the 20p away for a second to make maths easier, we can look at it as 'we deal 300p (plus 20p) per 2.5s'. Thus, by multiplying things by 1.2x, we can get to 'we deal 360p (plus 24p) per 3s'. 3sec happens to be the DOT tick rate, and so we could instead have something like:

Broil4, Spell, 400MP
Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 25p.
Additional Effect: Applies Broiling
Broiling Effect: Damage over Time
Potency: 360p
Duration: 9s

Thus, players would continue to spam Broil to deal damage, as they currently do. But if a player has to drop a cast of it, to apply Succor/Adlo or such, they don't lose the full potency of Broil (320p). They'd lose only the on-cast portion (25p in this example), and the DOT portion (360p per 3s) would continue to deal damage, keeping damage rolling even in high-intensity HPS check mechanics. As you spam Broil, you'd constantly refresh the DOT portion. Of course, this comes with the downside of 'you can press Broil once per 3 GCDs and still do almost your whole damage output', so it'd have a pretty sizeable effect on skill expression, but numbers could be wrangled as needed

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Like I said, there is no one singular fix that would solve every problem.

But it would be a good fix to make Healers damage output comparable to Tanks, even if it is by just boosting potencies. And SE themselves have said they don't want to give Healers more attacks, so the only viable fix IS increasing potency on the one attack we have and the DoT.

If balance breaks the game, the game deserves to be broken.

---

But the problem with that, is that the content is already 'balanced' around Healers having the output they have. If SE increased Healer damage output by, eg, increasing Glare to 400p, then content will have its DPS checks (in content where DPS actually matters) scaled up to match that new output. So you'd be doing the same rotation, with the same impact on the boss's HP bar (as a proportion of the total HP of the boss)

If there's a choice between Healers getting 'deal more damage, with the same rotation', and 'deal the same damage, with a rotation that has 2-3 more buttons in it', I'm taking Option B, frame 1.

Also, we had a time in the game where Healers were out-dpsing Tanks, at the start of SHB. The Tanks pitched a fit about it, and I expect they would do so again. The general opinion of the playerbase seems to be that yes, Tanks should be doing more damage than Healers, despite the roles both being equally 'not a DPS', and while I don't necessarily agree with that sentiment, I also don't see 'make Tanks and Healers do the same damage' as being a solution to the problems that Healers actually have

I don't particularly care whether or not healers do the same dps. Granted it "feels" odd to have the role that spams a single button the entire time do the same damage as jobs that can technically still do things "wrong", as hard as that may be nowadays.
This was basically the argument in Shadowbringers, when tanks still took slightly more effort.
But ultimately "feels odd" isn't a particularly strong argument, especially with the current state of jobs, what matters is if this would actually fix anything, it wouldn't.

As already explained the DPS checks in content that actually has them already account for healer DPS, so healers doing more DPS just means the DPS checks get increased by that amount.
You're ultimately still doing the exact same thing and your increased DPS makes no functional difference, it just looks nicer on damage meters.

Well, it will change two things. Content that doesn't account for healer DPS will get faster and Healers that are already bad at pressing their single damage button consistently will now be even worse comparatively, because every single cast of Broil/Malefic/Dosis/Glare will have increased in value.

Well the alternative to fixing the lack of balance would be lower tank DPS to the level of Healers... But that then would make every currently existing piece of content kind of impossible.

And Yoshi-P has talked about not wanting to change healer gameplay, to not give them any additional stress as he puts it... So, with that mentality, the only thing that could be fixed is attack potency.


Although there is another thing that's been talked to death on these forums, Tank healing, which needs significant nerfs... Could generally keep the current balancing, give a huge boost to healer DPS, and take Tank healing to EW DRK levels. Healers get their downtime as they need to heal, and then do damage where they can in their downtime.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Well the alternative to fixing the lack of balance would be lower tank DPS to the level of Healers... But that then would make every currently existing piece of content kind of impossible.

---

What balance? There is no "balance" between tanks and healers, they are entirely different roles. When we talk about balancing DPS it is only within a given role, healers aren't competing with tanks for damage output, they're competing with other healers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

What balance? There is no "balance" between tanks and healers, they are entirely different roles. When we talk about balancing DPS it is only within a given role, healers aren't competing with tanks for damage output, they're competing with other healers.

---

Tanks aren't DPS either. So why are they allowed to do damage while healers aren't?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Tanks aren't DPS. So why are they allowed to do damage while healers aren't?

---

At this point I have to question whether or not you're playing the same game as the rest of us.
Healers have been doing damage since ARR, they're doing damage right now. Whether that damage is 4k lower on average than the tanks or the exact same is irrelevant, you're still doing damage and encounters are balanced around that damage contribution, increase the contribution and you've just increased how much damage is needed to not wipe on enrage.

And no, tanks aren't DPS, that's why they're doing 10K less than even the worst actual DPS job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

At this point I have to question whether or not you're playing the same game as the rest of us.
Healers have been doing damage since ARR, they're doing damage right now. Whether that damage is 4k lower on average than the tanks or the exact same is irrelevant, you're still doing damage and encounters are balanced around that damage contribution, increase the contribution and you've just increased how much damage is needed to not wipe on enrage.

And no, tanks aren't DPS, that's why they're doing 10K less than even the worst actual DPS job.

---

Well, if none of the DPS matters, then why don't tanks just spam Shield Lob, Tomahawk, Unmend or Lightning Shot, it does damage, and even does more enmity than their combo letting them do their job of tanking even better than their rotation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Well, if none of the DPS matters, then why don't tanks just spam Shield Lob, Tomahawk, Unmend or Lightning Shot, it does damage, and even does more enmity than their combo letting them do their job of tanking even better than their rotation.

---

Because pressing one button as the majority of your 'rotation' is boring as hell? Because, like Healing, 'having enough Emnity to keep the enemy hitting the Tank' is binary, in that you either have enough (and more is useless) or you don't (and it quickly becomes a problem)?

Let's get really crazy. WHM next expansion can deal 600p per Glare3 cast, and 1000p per Glare4 cast. Misery is now 2400p. What would this solve about WHM gameplay? Stuff wouldn't die any faster, because it's going to be developed, with its HP scaled in accordance with WHM being able to slam 600p out per GCD. All it'll have done is made WHM deal bigger numbers, without addressing the issue that how the numbers are achieved is the problem, not their size.

Take another example, this time in reverse. As a WAR, you press 123 combo for the buff, or 124 for gauge generation. But they're boring, and Fell Cleave is fun, right? So, what if we remove those combos, and just press Fell Cleave in their place? Well, now Fell Cleave feels even more lame than it already does (due to how often it's already used in the rotation), causing it to feel less special/cool. Enemy HP is scaled with that FC-centric rotation in mind, so you're not killing anything any faster. All it'd have done, is make the rotation less interesting, and made a fan-favourite action feel mundane

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Because pressing one button as the majority of your 'rotation' is boring as hell? Because, like Healing, 'having enough Emnity to keep the enemy hitting the Tank' is binary, in that you either have enough (and more is useless) or you don't (and it quickly becomes a problem)?

---

The developers don't think it's a problem. The developers also seem to think that non-DPS roles shouldn't do damage. So what would be the problem if they removed tank's combos and ogcd attacks? And people responding to me also don't think non-DPS damage isn't something that should be considered.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

The developers don't think it's a problem. The developers also seem to think that non-DPS roles shouldn't do damage. So what would be the problem if they removed tank's combos and ogcd attacks? And people responding to me also don't think non-DPS damage isn't something that should be considered.

---

Now you're just engaging in sophistry.

Nobody ever said DPS in general doesn't matter. Neither we nor the developers. The devs literally tune the enrage timer of fights so that it can't be beating unless tanks and healers contribute as well.
What doesn't matter is comparing the DPS of one role to another.

Every role is expected to contribute damage in a fight, the expected amount however is different.
Tanks aren't expected to do the 38-46k DPS that a Viper can do, because they literally can't. They are however expected to contribute whatever their in-built damage rotation allows for.
Just like healers are expected to contribute damage through their DoT, their burst cooldown and their filler attack spell.
The expected amount is simply lower than that of actual DPS jobs and tanks.

Which is also why those roles aren't balanced against each other, they are not competing with each other and do not have the same expected damage output.
If you increased the healer's damage output to be the same as that of tanks you still wouldn't be competing with that role, you would be competing with the output of other healers and boss HP would be increased to account for that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MisterNublet

Because there is zero content in the game before savage (and arguably some extremes) that teaches healers how to play their role appropriately. Such as how to not be a healbot, planning out heals/mitigation, how to press their (few) dps tools.

M11s is a reality check for most healbots. They are learning they can't just afk through savage and get a clear.

Here's the fun part. Once those healbot players adjust and start getting better at the game, planning out mits and heals and figuring out that their dps rotation is pressing 1 button >80% of the time, they understand that the healer gameplay absolutely massively sucks arse and switch to dps or tank instead.

Guess who fills those newly vacant spots? Fresh healbots.

---

This is basically why healers are always in the spot of “if healers are so easy why do savage healers suck”

Because the design of healers makes it so the only people that enjoy them suck at them because high level healer gameplay actively makes competant people not want to play healer

If non healers don’t want heal bots in higher tier savage fights then they should be encouraging healer diversification, to make competant people actually WANT to play healer

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

Now you're just engaging in sophistry.

Nobody ever said DPS in general doesn't matter. Neither we nor the developers. The devs literally tune the enrage timer of fights so that it can't be beating unless tanks and healers contribute as well.
What doesn't matter is comparing the DPS of one role to another.

Every role is expected to contribute damage in a fight, the expected amount however is different.
Tanks aren't expected to do the 38-46k DPS that a Viper can do, because they literally can't. They are however expected to contribute whatever their in-built damage rotation allows for.
Just like healers are expected to contribute damage through their DoT, their burst cooldown and their filler attack spell.
The expected amount is simply lower than that of actual DPS jobs and tanks.

Which is also why those roles aren't balanced against each other, they are not competing with each other and do not have the same expected damage output.
If you increased the healer's damage output to be the same as that of tanks you still wouldn't be competing with that role, you would be competing with the output of other healers and boss HP would be increased to account for that.

---

My argument is that non-DPS roles should be comparable to non-DPS roles. Hence, Tanks and Healers. Neither is a DPS.
Though doing some basic testing, I did find some things... Running Deltascape 3 (O3), with different job to see how quickly they beat them as it's a relatively simple fight with little downtime making it a good training dummy... And eliminating the effects of gear mostly, I picked up the DT artifact sets and used Resilient accessories and a Vanguard ring on all the Jobs to get everything to roughly the same point.

WHM with the recent addition of starting with full lilies, including a Blood Lily for Afflatus Misery, are basically just slightly behind PLD, probably the lowest damaging tank, in damage output on the short term. It's likely going to fall off as you get relegated to mostly just spamming Glare while PLD gets to do their full rotation constantly. To stay the same, Glare Spam and the 3 Glare 4's would need to outdamage the entire Confetior combo by a decent margin since it's a 2m CD vs a 1m CD.

Also trying SCH, it has as huge of a gap to Tanks and Tanks do to DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

What doesn't matter is comparing the DPS of one role to another.

---

The DPS itself might not matter, but the total value should definitely matter.

If you have one role that is able to provide all the direct raid sustain needs of a given fight and yet also provides immensely greater total indirect raid sustain (via mitigating single-target attacks through itself) and significantly more damage all atop that... that's not great.

Think it is somewhat notable Healer was usually the first support to be replaced by a dps for farming some group content in EW since that results in more dps than replacing a tank with one.
1T3D parties can be faster for dungeons for the same reason too, especially with Tank survivability being as high as it is.

If healer dpsing is going to be stay as simple as it is right now there's really no reason for them to hit as hard as a tank though, ShB had this problem and tank dps rotations really felt like a lot of effort for very little damage because of that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

My argument is that non-DPS roles should be comparable to non-DPS roles. Hence, Tanks and Healers. Neither is a DPS.

---

And whether the "support roles" should do equally as much DPS is worth discussing. It just doesn't fix the underlying issues with healer gameplay, namely that it consists of spamming the same button for 50% or more of a fight. Increasing the damage of that single spell wouldn't change this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Though doing some basic testing, I did find some things... Running Deltascape 3 (O3), with different job to see how quickly they beat them as it's a relatively simple fight with little downtime making it a good training dummy... And eliminating the effects of gear mostly, I picked up the DT artifact sets and used Resilient accessories and a Vanguard ring on all the Jobs to get everything to roughly the same point.

WHM with the recent addition of starting with full lilies, including a Blood Lily for Afflatus Misery, are basically just slightly behind PLD, probably the lowest damaging tank, in damage output on the short term. It's likely going to fall off as you get relegated to mostly just spamming Glare while PLD gets to do their full rotation constantly. To stay the same, Glare Spam and the 3 Glare 4's would need to outdamage the entire Confetior combo by a decent margin since it's a 2m CD vs a 1m CD.

Also trying SCH, it has as huge of a gap to Tanks and Tanks do to DPS.

---

Whitemage's damage profile is what we consider "selfish" meaning that it's only contribution to the "expected damage" is what it's attack spells provide. Tanks fall into the same category, they may have damage buffs but those only apply to the tank itself.

There wil always be huge gaps between SCH and AST compared to tanks in a solo scenario, there is even a sizeable gap between those two and WHM/SGE. Scholar and Astro have lower personal damage because they provide damage boosts to the party. But when there is no party to provide those boosts to (or even less than 7 other people) they quickly fall behind because their main source of indirectly contributing to damage is negated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The DPS itself might not matter, but the total value should definitely matter.


If you have one role that is able to provide all the direct raid sustain needs of a given fight and yet also provides immensely greater total indirect raid sustain (via mitigating single-target attacks through itself) and significantly more damage all atop that... that's not great.

---

That's a slightly different discussion though, the overall value that a role provides to the party.

And I agree that tanks should not have decent damage output, party mitigation and high party sustain on top of that. Because now they're starting to infringe on what the healer role is supposed to uniquely bring to the table. Just like Heavensward tanks were infringing on the damage dealer's role.
At most the tanks should be able to sustain themselves for a time, not the entire party if damage frequency is as low as it is in dungeons for example and certainly not indefinitely.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Azurarok

If healer dpsing is going to be stay as simple as it is right now there's really no reason for them to hit as hard as a tank though, ShB had this problem and tank dps rotations really felt like a lot of effort for very little damage because of that.

---

That's one of very few arguments I could think of for not making the two roles do equal DPS, and it's not even a very strong one. Like I said before, as hard as it may be to mess up your rotation on a tank nowadays it is at least still possible. You could drop Storm's Eye, you could waste MP on a TBN that doesn't break, you could drop your combo and miss a cartridge.
Healers don't have a rotation, they spend at least 50% of all their attacks spamming the same button, it's incredibly hard to mess up because you can slot those in at any time, no combo or resource buildup required. It is streamlined to a point that it has become insufferable to actually play.

The other would be that now that healers provide more DPS their expected contribution also increases. This is only going to widen the gap between people who can spam Glare 180 times per fight and those who can't, because every Glare you don't cast is an even bigger damage loss than right now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Azurarok

If healer dpsing is going to be stay as simple as it is right now there's really no reason for them to hit as hard as a tank though, ShB had this problem and tank dps rotations really felt like a lot of effort for very little damage because of that.

---

I rather doubt the rotational difficulty has much to do with how poor healer damage is compared to tanks.

I suspect it has more to do with the fact that healer performance being X% of tanks used to have to account for GCDs lost to healing while tanks getting their optimal damage, in turn, used to require greeding and therefore drawing extra GCD heals from their healer such that they were roughly balanced in tandem but the devs' decision to maintain nearly maximum tank damage even while also maintaining their maximum passive sustainability (in attempting to pander simultaneously to panicky turtle tanks and the average / less inept player while removing tank stances as an actual gameplay mechanic instead of a once per job-swap chore) completely forgot about that for tanks (overpowering them) even while (or, and therefore) nerfing healer damage per average offensive GCD relative to tanks in compensation for said healers' increased offensive uptime.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

That's a slightly different discussion though, the overall value that a role provides to the party.

And I agree that tanks should not have decent damage output, party mitigation and high party sustain on top of that. Because now they're starting to infringe on what the healer role is supposed to uniquely bring to the table. Just like Heavensward tanks were infringing on the damage dealer's role.

---

Different, yes, but largely interrelated -- not even really separable without risking uselessness. Damage-Dealers have only damage, yes, but the longer they can go without heals, the less healers' value is outside of their own damage (and therefore... at all, since it's less than a damage-dealers' and all fights are ended via damage), for instance. Any potential at-cost sustain choices from tanks are, meanwhile, only as valuable as the difference in rDPS through freed healer GCDs can be. Not only compositional flexibility (or, whether someone gets shafted as quickly as possible with no redeeming broader flexibility) but also kit depth/optionality depend on inter-role balance across all means of ultimately generating practical value, no matter how indirect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I rather doubt the rotational difficulty has much to do with how poor healer damage is compared to tanks.

I suspect it has more to do with the fact that healer performance being X% of tanks used to have to account for GCDs lost to healing while tanks getting their optimal damage, in turn, used to require greeding and therefore drawing extra GCD heals from their healer such that they were roughly balanced in tandem but the devs' decision to maintain nearly maximum tank damage even while also maintaining their maximum passive sustainability (in attempting to pander simultaneously to panicky turtle tanks and the average / less inept player while removing tank stances as an actual gameplay mechanic instead of a once per job-swap chore) completely forgot about that for tanks (overpowering them) even while (or, and therefore) nerfing healer damage per average offensive GCD relative to tanks in compensation for said healers' increased offensive uptime.

---

I would assume the intention even back then was to keep healer DPS lower than tanks, otherwise they could have buffed healer potencies to account for lost damage casts due to GCD healing.

Technically you still need to greed GCDs on a tank to reach your maximum potential output and run the risk of eating a damage down, crippling yourself. But that is also not required to do more DPS than a healer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

I would assume the intention even back then was to keep healer DPS lower than tanks, otherwise they could have buffed healer potencies to account for lost damage casts due to GCD healing.

---

Right, but consider: If you had healers at, say, 85% of tank damage (though early SCH could actually beat tanks, so...) even when they were losing a significant number of GCDs to healing, apportioning for the time lost would put them equal or ahead of tanks' damage back then if they had similarly full offensive uptime. Which... makes sense, since the tank is ALWAYS contributing sustain as long as the target is hitting him instead of someone squishier, while the healer does so only when actually healing.

So, one role was allowed to have both max damage and its max sustain in one go while the other was nerfed commensurately to having its "free" sustain increased relative to healing requirements, even though tanks lost about as much rotational complexity across Stormblood->Shadowbringers as healers loss, at least in flat (rather than proportional) terms.

Quote:

---

Technically you still need to greed GCDs on a tank to reach your maximum potential output and run the risk of eating a damage down, crippling yourself. But that is also not required to do more DPS than a healer.

---

Not really any more so than a healer's even 1.5s cast would cause it to have to "greed" for full uptime amid outgoing AoEs, given how far encounters have gone over the last few expansions to guarantee per-GCD melee access.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

The developers don't think it's a problem. The developers also seem to think that non-DPS roles shouldn't do damage. So what would be the problem if they removed tank's combos and ogcd attacks? And people responding to me also don't think non-DPS damage isn't something that should be considered.

---

Because Tanks get a preferential treatment ? poster boys for most expansions, achievements/mounts, priority for adventurer in need, op in any content with reward based on enemity, etc...
Healers should be happy to get scraps, and you know what ? adding potency to their filler is exactly that ! Why make the role fun to play when you can just drop 100p to their filler. There healers fixed, ! are you happy ?
Like most people pointed out, that change absolutly nothing to your first problem (dps checks). instead of it being (exagerated) 40dps+30tank+20healer=90dps check you get 40dps+30tank+30healer=100dps check. with a bad healer dps, that's a 10% more expected from the party to clear.
To be clear, I'm not opposed to increasing Healer DPS to at least reduce the gap, because solo duties are boring, but other than that, it solves absolutly nothing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Azurarok

If healer dpsing is going to be stay as simple as it is right now there's really no reason for them to hit as hard as a tank though, ShB had this problem and tank dps rotations really felt like a lot of effort for very little damage because of that.

---

I'd argue than If you expect someone to take a role as boring as healer to fill the slot, they'd deserve to feel some gratification.

Potency talks aside, this game is 90% non savage/hard content... I'd like to have fun pressing buttons in the vast majority of the game as well, which spamming one button isn't.

I probably did it in the past but I also want to add my voice to this thread. Scholar main since the opening of Jenova server here. In my heart I still a main sch even If I play it less and less because it's now boring.

The problems that are told on OP are still all valid at this day.

I still miss my Stormblood's scholar that was my favorite, or my HW/ARR ones before that was way more fun than the current one.

I understand that they tried to give mitigation and healing skills to other job so they could survive easily if a bad healer is in the party, but that kind of killed the purpose of having a healer. It's part of an online game to often be stuck with bad players, and the XIV community always had the reputation of being patient and friendly to help people to understand their mistakes. Nowadays, with the easy casual content, especially nerfed old content, I can understand why there are so many bad (every roles tbf) in the games. If for the leveling to level 100, all you offer is non challenging dungeons/trials/raids with not threats and where the tanks/dps can survive without healer, don't be surprise if they are bad when those players starts to play in extreme, savage or any other of the harder content.

The priority for 8.0 should be to adress the jobs issues so healer become something necessary again and not optional (and make them fun to play, they deserve a nice dps rotation like they used to have). But, SE should also consider putting back danger and possibility of dying in dungeon. I did the dungeon where Nidhogg is the final boss the other day, and I was surprise to see that Estinien is not even there anymore. Back in the time, the healer had to keep him alive or it was a wipe. Oh, and that dungeon used to take 30 minutes to do, had challenge and was actually fun. The current version took 12 minutes to clear and was braindead, borring. To be short, a 12 minutes dungeon that felt longer to do because it was just boring, than the old 30 minutes versions where we had danger and needs to heal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calysto

Because Tanks get a preferential treatment ? poster boys for most expansions, achievements/mounts, priority for adventurer in need, op in any content with reward based on enemity, etc...
Healers should be happy to get scraps, and you know what ? adding potency to their filler is exactly that ! Why make the role fun to play when you can just drop 100p to their filler. There healers fixed, ! are you happy ?
Like most people pointed out, that change absolutly nothing to your first problem (dps checks). instead of it being (exagerated) 40dps+30tank+20healer=90dps check you get 40dps+30tank+30healer=100dps check. with a bad healer dps, that's a 10% more expected from the party to clear.
To be clear, I'm not opposed to increasing Healer DPS to at least reduce the gap, because solo duties are boring, but other than that, it solves absolutly nothing.

---

I would argue that giving healers more damage would fix the issue of healers not doing enough damage for DPS checks because they lack the tools to do said damage.

But thinking more on the testing I did, the only reason WHM was able to almost compete with PLD on a single 2m window was purely because of Afflatus Misery, if they wanted to keep more or less the same gameplay healers currently do to "not stress them out", they could replace Afflatus Misery with a new Healer Role spell that's an instant cast GCD with a 2m CD that hits for 1500 potency. Then it would be an issue of Healers playing bad if they didn't contribute enough damage and not because their kits are undertuned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

I would argue that giving healers more damage would fix the issue of healers not doing enough damage for DPS checks because they lack the tools to do said damage.

But thinking more on the testing I did, the only reason WHM was able to almost compete with PLD on a single 2m window was purely because of Afflatus Misery, if they wanted to keep more or less the same gameplay healers currently do to "not stress them out", they could replace Afflatus Misery with a new Healer Role spell that's an instant cast GCD with a 2m CD that hits for 1500 potency. Then it would be an issue of Healers playing bad if they didn't contribute enough damage and not because their kits are undertuned.

---

That's what we've been trying to explain. People aren't failing DPS checks because healer damage is undertuned, the DPS check is tuned around that current healer damage. So if you're dying on enrage due to missing healer damage then that healer is simply bad.

I love how almost every time this thread is brought back up, a couple pages worth of discussion on the topic pops up alongside it, too bad the discussion shows no improvement or acknowledgment on the issue, as it loops back to the same talking points (regardless on if it's for or against the strike).

More likely than not I'll never get to enjoy healer ever again but at least reading in here remains entertaining.

It's almost as if people know what the problems are and just disagree on how to fix the problems.

In some dungeons it’s fine to run w/o healers, but I disagree that they are obsolete. Regardless of what type of play it is, pve, pvp, healers are in fact needed.

Maybe I’m just a bad player.

I do think that healers need more enchants. Weapon enchant skill options, so that they can start making more strategic decisions during fights rather than just button pushing.

The addition of several skills like this can fix lame gameplay.

Add 10% to target damage for 10 sec, heal for 20% of damage value up to xxxxx

But I’d rather see long term gains so it’s less button pushing.

Add 4% to target damage for 200 seconds, heal for 10% of all additional damage done when enchant ends.

Or

Reduce target damage by 25% while this enchant remains active, shield for 400% of targets damage done in the last 15 seconds. Players near this player gain 10% damage for 7 seconds.

These probably aren’t beneficial examples, but the general idea is forcing healers to make decisions which fundamentally alter gameplay.

They deserve it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AyahM

snip

---

I do agree mostly but the only thing I think should be different is durations on such things, since it runs into the same issue Protect had. If they last say, 200 seconds, they don’t really add very much to the gameplay since it’s just pressing one extra button every few minutes.

If they had say, the standard 20/30s duration, you’d have to reapply much more frequently, maybe consider Mp costs (let’s pretend MP exists now), upcoming healing mechanics, etcetc, so it’d actually add something more to the overall gameplay. Plus if they’re worried about balance they could make such things role skills so they’re available to each healer equally or w/e.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AyahM

These [enchants and long buffs] probably aren’t beneficial examples, but the general idea is forcing healers to make decisions which fundamentally alter gameplay.

They deserve it.

---

I'd likewise want to see more decisions, but I don't want those to feel generalized as just buffs, just enchants, or the like, or even strict capacitive differences like one being able to shield based on damage dealt (best on bursty DPS) and others for extra DR (best on whoever's getting hardest, so usually the tank... at least if not for anti-synergy with other DRs).

Or, to try to put it more simply... I don't want to see Healers get some sort of role-wide norm that offers more downtime casts via (a) shared (category of) actions so much as that I'd like to see a push towards greater versatility across all jobs (that moves more of our kit from 2-minute-alignable oGCD bloat towards more frequently usable but situational tools that allow for branching decisions) that healers, in turn, benefit from.

For Monk, that might involve a revitalization of stances and/or far more varied and interactive Blitz options; for Samurai, that might involve its two wind buffs being far more meaningful than just 40s upkeeps, or maybe even (separate from the Winds) moving power between self and one's blade a bit; for Warrior, Abandon and Defiance and leveraging low and high health; for Sage, maybe different configurations and the ability to granularly assign actions to the different Nouliths with the intent of having individual assignments synergize into an upcoming combined skill, etc.

Granted, even as I say that, I could see some ways that what I imagine might put the different jobs analogous to each other. For instance...[LIST]my imagined WHM would make far more significant use of elements, with actual White Magic coming only from mixing them to strong effect (though that'd arguably give feast-famine balancing issues);
my imagined SCH would uniquely make use of Libra (if randomization of boss attacks were ever a thing, allowing a ghostly-animated forecast X seconds ahead) and Stratagems (like formations, but for friendlies and enemies) but would likewise have that Lily/Eos distinction between maximizing utility & shields or total healing throughput;
and my imagined AST would atop its Cards (again randomized but with more controls and with an actually balanced Royal Road) again have Diurnal and Nocturnal Sects -- Diurnal having the ability to rush out GCDs and leave a HoT of variable, extendable duration, and Nocturnal having the ability to overcharge for shield value, each at reduced MP efficiency (which one can make up for via Ewer later) but powerful utility.

Granted, all that would depend on 8.x actually making job identity a priority, so... yours would be the more realistic and might still do a fair bit if the buff durations were short enough and their likely outputs balanced correctly.

If the new Evolved Mode ends up just being more dumbing down of healers, will you play with Reborn Mode or quit playing healer?

I am willing to give it a try and see how it evolves until launch day but Whm looked dreadful.

Watching what they showed it seems they somehow didn't address the jobs issues and seems they made the rotation even worse and simpler

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fawkes

If the new Evolved Mode ends up just being more dumbing down of healers, will you play with Reborn Mode or quit playing healer?

---

Depends how bad reborn mode gets and if any of the tank changes are fun.

WHM showcase made me think “This is one button pressing Phys Ranged with dps neutral heals (read: just press any heal lol it doesn’t matter you get refund anyway-the heal).” This alone is already a red flag to me. I firmly believe that so long WHM isn’t allowed to grow out of their “for stupid/”-identity, neither their siblings would grow either because they have historically designed 4 healers since ShB/EW with “WHM, WHM+X, WHM+Y, and WHM+Z”-model.

I have long since casting aside my desire to invest in high ends & seclude myself to RP, FL PvP & black magick circles outside few relapses with friend’s groups (good times btw :p). Reborn-Evolve modes will not change that, judging from what’s been showcased so far. Can they show more? Probably in next Fanfests or LLs. However so far I’m not convinced this is the overhaul. For healers at least. PLD DRG & BRD were pretty cool but those doesn’t belong to my main role so… eh…

I know, this is technically still a WIP. But consider their track record for once, I don’t have high hopes & very glad I tamed my expectations this time around. I’d love to be proven wrong, obviously.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

WHM showcase made me think “This is one button pressing Phys Ranged with dps neutral heals (read: just press any heal lol it doesn’t matter you get refund anyway-the heal).” This alone is already a red flag to me. I firmly believe that so long WHM isn’t allowed to grow out of their “for stupid/”-identity, neither their siblings would grow either because they have historically designed 4 healers since ShB/EW with “WHM, WHM+X, WHM+Y, and WHM+Z”-model.

I have long since casting aside my desire to invest in high ends & seclude myself to RP, FL PvP & black magick circles outside few relapses with friend’s groups (good times btw :p). Reborn-Evolve modes will not change that, judging from what’s been showcased so far. Can they show more? Probably in next Fanfests or LLs. However so far I’m not convinced this is the overhaul. For healers at least. PLD DRG & BRD were pretty cool but those doesn’t belong to my main role so… eh…

I know, this is technically still a WIP. But consider their track record for once, I don’t have high hopes & very glad I tamed my expectations this time around. I’d love to be proven wrong, obviously.

---

It will be bad and worse in every aspect. If people are already doomposting a lot on other forums and having proven facts about how this will work, then yeah I can really say that this won't fix anything and will make healers just tad worse.

To early, lets wait untill we see more. I am worried about Scholar, but they cooked with Paladin, Bard and Dragoon, so I want to give them a chance.