Sorry SE, but endgame won't work if you don't fix something.

People need to stop complaining let these people do their work to fix the problems and @%$& up. It like your not going to stop playing because your addicted to it.

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Originally Posted by CatofNineTails

According to our screens we are out of the red zones with 40-50% of the bar still to go. thats the problem the latency between some players and the servers is so poor we are being told that everything is honky dory only to find out the servers see it differently.

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^^ though i do not have to deal with AOEs as a tank, it still throws me off when i get hit by the damage for a mountain buster before the animation starts.

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Originally Posted by Bashkarthegreat

im sick of this post. personally, i understand your argument, you are out of the circles well before they happen, however, that just means its a problem on your end, not the games, cuz i can do what your taling about, be out at 99 percent, and i dont get hit. So its gotta be you guys, i have 0 problems, and theres a lot more people who have 0 problems dodging things, than there are people with problems failing at a game thats easy.

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Do you have a video or something? I'm honestly not asking to be snarky. I just have yet to see a single video of this game where someone dodges something at the last second.

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Originally Posted by Sunarie

Do you have a video or something? I'm honestly not asking to be snarky. I just have yet to see a single video of this game where someone dodges something at the last second.

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Based on the quality of his post, I wouldn't expect much in terms of a follow up.

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Originally Posted by Syah

Either way people will leave the game if it's not fixed (I am).
The difference is:
1) SE answers: I will leave but with still a high esteem of the company and maybe even come back later.
2) SE ignores it: I will leave, never come back, and never play another SE game due to poor CS. CS is what makes the difference.

We'll see when PvP comes in the picture...

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I don't know how they could possibly think about PvP with this kind of issue.

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Originally Posted by Goreth

Based on the quality of his post, I wouldn't expect much in terms of a follow up.

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This is true, but it doesn't have to be from him. Could be literally from anyone. Would just have to be of someone moving out during the last little bit of that cast bar, still being out by the time it finished and all.. and not getting hit by the attack. To my knowledge, that bit at least is true for everyone, so evidence to the contrary I would be interested in.

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Originally Posted by DeceptionsWrath

I think that is exactly why they're not commenting on this subject. They don't want to say no it won't be fixed. If they acknowledge the problem then they'll need to spend money fixing it. If they simply ignore it, people will give up eventually. Bethesda is known for this approach for their games as well.

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it was an acknowledged issue in 1.0, they even said oh thats a big reason we have to rewrite the servers
so they promised a fix and didnt do it
now there is only silence from SE and Yoshida/SE looks like liars
Tanaka wasnt the problem, it was all the people under him and they are still there
Yoshida is just lipstick on a pig

Daily bump until an official response from SE.

just the amount of time this thread has existed already is far too long for no official word since the problem has been a known issue long before it was started.

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Originally Posted by Namko

Are you out of the red zone before the cast bar hits 80%-90%? Just wondering.

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The distance I can see I'm clear I could have run out of 2 red zones, sat down and had a cup of tea but lag kills me. Thankfully I have finished it since my last post but it still needs to be fixed so the latency lucky dip doesn't determine the outcome.

Another letter from the productor without a single word about this issue...

I don't see how they can possibly do anything about this issue because it's a server architecture issue. I don't know of another MMORPG where you can actually move before your spell is supposed to be finished casting and still finish casting it. It affects some players less depending on their skills and whether they need to stand still or not. The only way to get around it is by playing extremely conservatively and clear AE by a very comfortable margin. In EQ1, you do not come to a complete stop the moment you stop moving so people adapt the 'spin 180 degree' rule, that is after you think you've stopped, spin around 180 degrees and that's enough time to ensure your momentum is now 0. It's similar to this in FF14 as you basically have to be able to spin around 180 degrees after you get out of an AE before it's done casting to be sure you actually beat the AE.

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Originally Posted by Astarica

I don't see how they can possibly do anything about this issue because it's a server architecture issue.

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Explain server architecture issue. Because if you're talking that the delay is because we can't get information to the server fast enough, that's a lie. I have 90 ms ping and experience much much more delay. The travel times should not, and in games without this, does not matter (unless you don't have a good ISP which is an entirely separate issue).

And some examples from the games I've played would be Tera, Neverwinter, and LoL. None of those games have this problem.

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Originally Posted by Seiko769

Eh not gonna argue my opinion anymore cause obviously I'm the only person in all of Eorzea that thinks this way but I'll leave on this: Squares usually seems to be pretty quick on owning up to their mistakes in this game so if there was a serious or game breaking latency issue they would have likely admitted it by now with a dev response or something so if they haven't than there liekly isn't a game breaking problem. My opninion take it or leave it prbably the latter but i'll leave it anyway

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Yeah 300ms built in latency in a game in 2013 isn't a problem at all.

I just love the "It's not a problem for me so there isn't a problem, you are all just noobs" posts. Like WTF? If it's not a problem for these people why are they even looking at this post? I think 111 pages on the subject has warranted it a big problem. Not all of us are leet gamers and I doubt that SE intended this to be an exclusive game for leet gamers.

Well with the latest Live Letter and no mention of addressing this issue (in addition to implying that 2.1 is still months away), that's 2 more accounts that have had their renewal canceled. I'll check back in 2014 and see if SE has made a properly functioning MMO yet.

That fight is easy and i'm not saying i'm better than most of you. It's about learning his rotation and having everybody know it. If you know when he is about to do weight, then start moving before he casts the ability.

I didn't want to read through 100 pages of this, but i'm sure there had to of been another person that made a comment like this. That fight is fun and it's a fight you have to work together with.

I really hope they don't try and make it easier somehow because some people don't take the time to learn it.

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Originally Posted by billydata21

That fight is easy and i'm not saying i'm better than most of you. It's about learning his rotation and having everybody know it. If you know when he is about to do weight, then start moving before he casts the ability.

I didn't want to read through 100 pages of this, but i'm sure there had to of been another person that made a comment like this. That fight is fun and it's a fight you have to work together with.

I really hope they don't try and make it easier somehow because some people don't take the time to learn it.

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And by not reading the thread you have made the assumption that many people have here that this is a thread about Titan. Titan is cited as an example of the issue as this is where it really comes to the fore as it is so unforgiving in being in/ out of aoe. The issue is about the delay from level 1 in all areas of the game that make the basic mechanics that all fights are based on (see an attack and avoid) null and void.

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Originally Posted by billydata21

That fight is easy and i'm not saying i'm better than most of you. It's about learning his rotation and having everybody know it. If you know when he is about to do weight, then start moving before he casts the ability. .

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Do you not think it's a tiny bit of a problem if the game isn't showing you what's actually happening? Do you think having to move before an attack is even being shown is intended design - that the team seriously expect us to react to things that aren't happening yet?

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Originally Posted by Gamina

And by not reading the thread you have made the assumption that many people have here that this is a thread about Titan. Titan is cited as an example of the issue as this is where it really comes to the fore as it is so unforgiving in being in/ out of aoe. The issue is about the delay from level 1 in all areas of the game that make the basic mechanics that all fights are based on (see an attack and avoid) null and void.

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My bad, I was just using the example that I seen. I haven't had many problems with moving out of the way of things at all though. and i'm playing on ps3 and i know that things show up for ps3 players way later than pc players.

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Originally Posted by StarBright

Well with the latest Live Letter and no mention of addressing this issue (in addition to implying that 2.1 is still months away), that's 2 more accounts that have had their renewal canceled. I'll check back in 2014 and see if SE has made a properly functioning MMO yet.

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I assume you mean the Letter from the Producer rather than Live Letter, but yeah, it's pretty annoying. I thought he'd finally address the issue when he mentioned end-game and hard-mode primals, but instead he just goes on about tomestone drops. I could hardly care less about them if they don't do something about the lag. Unfortunately I made the mistake to pay for six months, otherwise I'd probably cancel as well until it's fixed.

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Originally Posted by billydata21

It's about learning his rotation and having everybody know it. If you know when he is about to do weight, then start moving before he casts the ability.

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You are explaining how to work around the problem we are trying to address the underlying issue. What if they started adding dynamic mechanics to fights that didn't follow a set pattern? Even a fight like demon wall would become challenging if repel happened randomly and somewhat faster, not because the mechanic is difficult, but because you would only have an 80% chance of the server recognizing a successful dodge. Rote memorization is alright for early boss content like Titan but it really limits where you can go as the game progresses, right now people who don't really read the thread think it's about the Titan fight, but it's really about the long term future of the game.

Where is the question thread for the live letter so we can spam it with this problem?

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Originally Posted by Goreth

right now people who don't really read the thread think it's about the Titan fight, but it's really about the long term future of the game.

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Thank god. Someone finally printed it in black and white.

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Originally Posted by Deiv

I just love the "It's not a problem for me so there isn't a problem, you are all just noobs" posts. Like WTF? If it's not a problem for these people why are they even looking at this post? I think 111 pages on the subject has warranted it a big problem. Not all of us are leet gamers and I doubt that SE intended this to be an exclusive game for leet gamers.

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There were also hundreds of pages about this during beta.

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Originally Posted by Gravehill

There were also hundreds of pages about this during beta.

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Yes there was, and we did get a reply (which can be found on one of the earlier pages in this thread).

Basically saying that the latency was due to them monitoring the servers during tests. Yoshi then preceded to finish it off with a blanket statement that even the fastest internet will have some very small delay bla bla bla.. (but it wasn't going to be 300ms positional lag + geographical latency)..

They just need to investigate bringing more checks to client side.. I mean we already have RMT's and botters using teleport hacks.. The "server side positional checks" being more secure is kind of blown out of the window with that one.

PSO2 for example, doesn't have all this teleport botting garbage, yet they are practically completely client side.

Is Square Enix ever going to listen or what?

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Originally Posted by billydata21

If you know when he is about to do weight, then start moving before he casts the ability.

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this is absurd, moving before the weights appears only puts them out of stack and kills other people, its clear you have not been to the last phase

I think the majority have realised that it's a problem now.
... Just the occasional few people thinking they're better than everyone else because their lag isn't AS BAD. Still exists, but not as bad as others. They see it, but they won't admit it.

I have a fabulous connection, yes this game has the worse positional/delay in any mmorpg i have ever played. Quite sad.

Reading the most recent "Letter from the Producer" (#51) and the themes planned for the next "Live letter" (oct.19), it seems as though they're not even addressing the issue. Based on the fact that it's an "accepted bug" and also a topic they did address back in v1 and v2 beta, I have formed the following conclusions.

1. Square Enix is aware of the problem but does not have a working solution for it as we speak.
2. Considering how long they've been aware of the issue, that they still haven't come up with a solution means one of two things: they either don't think this is a serious issue, or they simply don't know how to fix it. The latter could be resulting of two likely constrains: either a technical one, by which they don't have the skills necessary to improve their code; or a budget constrain, meaning they don't have the cash to muscle up their datacenter enough to circumvent this 300ms check (we all know that, to reach acceptable "fixing" standards, this check should happen at least 10 times more often, in the vicinity of 30ms or less).
3. Considering the above, Square Enix knows that simply admitting that they can't fix the issue would be a very short-termed relief: while players would appreciate the honesty at first, they'd likely be very hesitant on continuing to play an online game that is that much sub-par in terms of responsiveness. Therefore, they just don't say a word about it, preferring to be oblivious to the issue, at least publicly.
4. I could think of a few ways to at least improve the situation, typically by implementing client-side prediction, as most AAA online games do from day 1; but again, considering all of the above, and the fact that rewriting netcode is by no means a small endeavour, I wouldn't get my hopes up for such a design improvement before 3.0 at the very best. If Final Fantasy XI is any indication, game-breaking issues of this magnitude may never be fixed.

Should this be true, it is my contention that it's probably the worst way to address such a game-breaking issue: try to bury the issue under the carpet, and probably not even work on it (or very slowly) behind the curtain. They should not only make a grand statement saying that they're doing something, but also and foremost invest heavily into solving one of the most worrying aspect of this game, bearing its long-term future in mind. Should they not do that, most players will simply move on to other games, not without mentioning publicly on various forums/comment threads/to friends that "FF XIV is nice but the network is broken", and should other players still try this game after that, they'll realise soon that indeed the network part of it is broken and, simply put, they'll leave as well.

This game could have millions of subscribers in the long run, it is that good; unfortunately with such poor responsiveness, it's unlikely to be anything more than a niche akin to FF XI, in the vicinity of 500k regular subscribers. For a franchise (IP) that sold above the 200M mark in its 25+ years of existence, I'd call that a failure. Wake up, SE.

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Originally Posted by Alcyon_Densetsu

Considering how long they've been aware of the issue, that they still haven't come up with a solution means one of two things: they either don't think this is a serious issue, or they simply don't know how to fix it.

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The thing is: As I mentioned in this thread before, they could easily make this issue irrelevant by designing content accordingly. The lag was even worse in FFXI, yet it was never that big a deal in that game.

But no, they absolutely have to copy other MMOs and make this a twitchy AoE dodge fest, come hell or high water. Never mind if it's playable, just make sure people have to keep pressing them buttons every two seconds.

Ok, I hate to be that guy, because I have personally experienced the lag myself. But all of the videos linked in the OP actually show the players NOT leaving the AOE before the cast bar goes off (or in the first link, doesn't show the enemy cast bar). The video examples provided aren't helping the case.

The disconnect between animation and the enemy cast bar is huge (1-2 secs sometimes) and this is something that should be addressed, but it's a separate thing.
The current game mechanic is leave AOE before enemy cast bar finishes, and that wasn't shown in the links provided.

At this point in time, while it's not natural to avoid the mechanic that you can't visually see the enemy doing yet, you can indeed avoid the mechanic based on the enemy cast bar. Of course you're still going to get some latency issues, so don't expect to leave the AOE within a pixel of the cast bar completing and escape either.

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Originally Posted by kayuwoody

Ok, I hate to be that guy, because I have personally experienced the lag myself. But all of the videos linked in the OP actually show the players NOT leaving the AOE before the cast bar goes off (or in the first link, doesn't show the enemy cast bar). The video examples provided aren't helping the case.

The disconnect between animation and the enemy cast bar is huge (1-2 secs sometimes) and this is something that should be addressed, but it's a separate thing.
The current game mechanic is leave AOE before enemy cast bar finishes, and that wasn't shown in the links provided.

At this point in time, while it's not natural to avoid the mechanic that you can't visually see the enemy doing yet, you can indeed avoid the mechanic based on the enemy cast bar. Of course you're still going to get some latency issues, so don't expect to leave the AOE within a pixel of the cast bar completing and escape either.

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Yeah, and how are healers supposed to watch a cast bar that isn't visible and move based on that invisible cast bar, hmmm?

They need it to be responsive so that the only way to complete content doesn't involve clunky workarounds (i.e. healers staying targetted on the main boss).

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Originally Posted by Orsnoire

Yeah, and how are healers supposed to watch a cast bar that isn't visible and move based on that invisible cast bar, hmmm?

They need it to be responsive so that the only way to complete content doesn't involve clunky workarounds (i.e. healers staying targetted on the main boss).

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You're preaching to the choir. I've been trying to pug this as WHM for a few days now. I've found it easiest to keep Titan targetted at all times, and to heal the tank as my Focus target, and rest of party via the party frames. Essentially all my spells go in order of <mo> <f> <tt>. Knowing the rotation is essential of course, but I still get hit by stuff when I tunnel vision into healing people. Fight's relatively easy if everyone's playing their roles. The upside to all that practice pugging, I think I'm finally at a comfortable place for this fight as healer, where I will only get hit by something if I'm playing badly.

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Originally Posted by kayuwoody

Ok, I hate to be that guy, because I have personally experienced the lag myself. But all of the videos linked in the OP actually show the players NOT leaving the AOE before the cast bar goes off (or in the first link, doesn't show the enemy cast bar). The video examples provided aren't helping the case.

The disconnect between animation and the enemy cast bar is huge (1-2 secs sometimes) and this is something that should be addressed, but it's a separate thing.
The current game mechanic is leave AOE before enemy cast bar finishes, and that wasn't shown in the links provided.

At this point in time, while it's not natural to avoid the mechanic that you can't visually see the enemy doing yet, you can indeed avoid the mechanic based on the enemy cast bar. Of course you're still going to get some latency issues, so don't expect to leave the AOE within a pixel of the cast bar completing and escape either.

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the delay is UNIVERSAL which includes the cast bar. if you don't get the tell on time you also dont get the cast bar on time. according to the players screen neither has been loaded while the servers are already counting down. same is true for damage bars and any other info sent to the client. the instances were not made equally optimized as the world servers were.

this also makes players who are less affected by the delay not see the problem because the delay is hiding itself by loading late on their screens too just not as late as others. internet latency can be a factor for some but when you have a very low ping and no latency issue fromthe internet and still get slow loads you can't blame the connection any more.

the instances especially boss fights include increased graphics like glowing tells fire water ice wind poison effects and more fleshed out environments which creates a graphics lag for some on top of the instance latency issue further increasing the lag.

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Originally Posted by HoroBoro

Explain server architecture issue. Because if you're talking that the delay is because we can't get information to the server fast enough, that's a lie. I have 90 ms ping and experience much much more delay. The travel times should not, and in games without this, does not matter (unless you don't have a good ISP which is an entirely separate issue).

And some examples from the games I've played would be Tera, Neverwinter, and LoL. None of those games have this problem.

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This game chooses to do most decisions that are normally handled client side on the server side. Let's take the ability to cast a spell move while moving. In most games, it goes like this:

1. You move.
2. Client stops your spell and your spell fails.

In FF14 it's like this:

1. You start moving.
2. Client relays the movement info.
3. Server does not receive this info on time and decides you're perfectly fine, spell is successfully cast.

While I, and many of my other FC members are currently paying our way for a temporary shotty fix via battleping, I would love for them to address and resolve the latency issues explained from the OP. Personally I don't like having to pay an extra 5 dollars a month for BP, when it's on SE to fix the issues. Granted, I don't expect them to be fixed until a majority of the other issues are fixed. It would still be nice if they acknowledge, and talk about the issue, and at least say they are trying to do something ;-;

I can say that once 2.1 releases, if the issues aren't fixed, PvP is going to be completely broken and become very enjoyable. At this point, you will be dealing Client > Server > Client, rather than Client > Server so the delay will be horrendous.

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Originally Posted by Sunarie

Do you have a video or something? I'm honestly not asking to be snarky. I just have yet to see a single video of this game where someone dodges something at the last second.

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In regards to my previous post, there is a workaround, and thats to pay for a third party program called BattlePing. It's 5 dollars a month, and does NOT work for everyone, and still has it's issues. If you're getting super frustrated with the game, but really enjoy it, I suggest giving BP free trial a go. I'm not saying this is the solution by any means at all, but a temporary, partial work around if you care to try it out. I still say SE needs to fix the problem.

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Originally Posted by tort

In regards to my previous post, there is a workaround, and thats to pay for a third party program called BattlePing.

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We're progressing through coil just fine, so the issue isn't really something that I can't overcome (we made it to Turn 4 in 2 days of raiding).. I'm just not denying that it's a problem. Thank you for the work around. The video comment was more at the folks flat out claiming they get no lag and as long as they're out of the aoe by the time the cast bar finished, regardless of how close, they wouldn't get hit. I simply don't believe that's possible with the way the game is setup currently, so I want to see proof of it is all.