Black Mage

Regarding the Burn and Frost idea as new DoT spells

I absolutely do not want DoT on the BLM (beside Thundercloud, but this one is more than a mer DoT)
I want the vast majority of my damage as big numbers. This is why I play BLM
If I want DoT I'll go with SMN or whatever future DoT based job they'll make. (For some reason I'd see TimeMage as an heavy DoT based Job, you know, things goes over "time")

I understand very well that having access to DoT would solve some of BLM issue, notably having dmg ticking while moving, but I'm pretty sure most player rolling BLM do it for the huge number. The more DoT given to BLM, the less hard other skills have to hit to compensate.

People have already proposed a crap ton of solution, ranging from instant FireI etc etc

Well at the moment, if seeing big numbers is something you're interested in, you're better off playing SMN for direct crit deathflares/enkindle bahamuts, because (as most of BLM's stats points end up getting allocated towards spell speed) BLM has some of the lowest "appearing" damage numbers out of many of the DPS classes.

I've gone full fights with crit rate under 10%. It's depressing.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Well at the moment, if seeing big numbers is something you're interested in, you're better off playing SMN for direct crit deathflares/enkindle bahamuts, because (as most of BLM's stats points end up getting allocated towards spell speed) BLM has some of the lowest "appearing" damage numbers out of many of the DPS classes.

I've gone full fights with crit rate under 10%. It's depressing.

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Honestly, the stat cap has to get higher before Spellspeed will start overtaking again.

Direct hit is going to scale horribly because you can already get 30-40%, which is pretty close to the point where you won't want to increase it again (As it's a linear gain where crit and spellspeed are both more parabolic). Depending on how high secondaries go, Spellspeed can potentially become the stupidest good stat for us again.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

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yeah but that's one spell per min :p (but you're right tho)

This is also why we need Fester damage doubled on single target :D

I wish they would extend ley lens, and minimize cooldown of Aetheral Manipulation for easy movement

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Originally Posted by Llugen

This is to reinforce what several of us have been trying to allude to for a while now: that there is no such thing as "raw damage" in FFXIV, particularly in the caster role. So hopefully 4.2 will see better mobility/damage and then later we can hope for/expect greater utility (I'm not getting my hopes up for defensive utility for 4.2).

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Could just make Manaward better. Strengthen it, lower its recast, something like that? But if people understand that black mage shouldn't get a Raise variant, people need to stop trying to ask for one and/or implement one. Lore is too important, whether you like it or not, and any argument that tries to make lore not matter is horribly misguided at best. This is an RPG, and one in a long-running series. How would you feel if you got FINAL FANTASY XVI after tons of hype, and it was just a Call of Duty ripoff? Because that's the level of idiocy you're embracing when you ask for black mages to get a Raise variant.

Now, this does not mean I think black mage is fine. I agree there need to be major adjustments. We have three DPS Disciple of Magic jobs, and the only one that offers only damage isn't doing enough damage to be justified next to the other two jobs, which bring both damage and utility. Ideally, either they make it so black mage does significantly more damage and red mage is strengthened to tie with summoner (this way you choose between either damage or one of two types of utility), or they give some form of utility to black mage that makes it comparable to red mage and summoner in terms of viability that is still appropriate to the lore of the series. This is why I suggested something like the Burn and Frost spells, though I realize not everyone wants to manage three damage-over-time effects on a job that's supposed to cast massive explosions. Temper itself doesn't really help the black mage (black mages don't do physical damage), while Embolden does help the red mage using it and the summoner's pet's Devotion, Radiant Shield, and Contagion do help the summoner as well.

The devs did say black mage's issues are going to be addressed in 4.2. We can hope. But if we're going to throw around suggestions, let's at least make them intelligent ones.

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Originally Posted by mikanana

I wish they would extend ley lens, and minimize cooldown of Aetheral Manipulation for easy movement

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this would be nice for mobility..., maybe make LL and BtL use only one button..

other than that mobility QoL, blm could still use either a some dps boost or some "utility" that wont kill blm dps (and isnt rez)

even if extending LL is a slight dps gain

Edit: lowering CD if aetheral manipulation would help a lot, BUT AM also needs a (slight) range increase!!!

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

Could just make Manaward better. Strengthen it, lower its recast, something like that?

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give Blm a "special" holmgang/hollowed ground of their own.., allowing them to eat ANY mechanic once every 4 min with out any risk (like not getting a bad debuff or killing dot).., so they can stay still during an aoe once or a certain mechanic; helping with their lack of mobility.. (or so they can stay out of healing range once too if needed and still survive..)

maybe just dont let it work, if they're on top of the agro list, so they cant cheat tank busters/mechanics (but can help "share" tank busters?)

eitherway, like in 2.x, where manaward could really help hard/death mechanics.. blm could use such again..maybe even be use as a "party utility" for mechanics

Regarding the upcoming 4.2 changes, there are really 3 areas we need to think about.

First is offensive buffs, this can be as simple as potency increases, cast time reductions or spell interactions. Honestly, this needs to be in the changes but it's pretty basic stuff that shouldn't be too in depth, it just needs to meet the benchmark of "does this do enough damage" which we currently do not.

Secondly is QoL changes, maybe some workaround to make weaving our role actions easier or make them more user friendly (why does mana shift cost mp???), these can have very minor end dps effects but won't make or break the jobs balance, just it's flow and feel.

Most importantly though is it's defensive utility, and that will ultimately determine whether or not this job gets played in progression ever again (outside of blackcat) by most caster mains. Currently is has none of this and that really solidifies the job as an underperformer. I was thinking about how to create a defensive identity for this class that isn't just a raise and the power budget needing to be allocated to match this is insane. Throughout Omega prog would you rather have access to Tank LB3 or Raise? Would you rather have refresh+tactitian or Raise? Would you rather have Hallowed Ground or Raise? These are all (in my opinion) things I would give up for the ability to raise while learning a fight, which kinda demonstrates just how powerful a non-raise equivalent skill for BLM would have to be.

That's why I stand on my ground that raise needs to be removed from the caster role

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Originally Posted by Remedi

That's why I stand on my ground that raise needs to be removed from the caster role

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Well, I don't think SMN and RDM should lose their Raises. I'd honestly be utterly upset if I lost Raise from Red Mage (for crying out loud, it's ALWAYS been the merging of Black and White Magic, with the Dualcast mechanic being added only as recently as Final Fantasy 5) and Summoner has it because Arcanist does. I don't think the team has the ability to set skills/spells/abilities as "job only" before level 30, so if they forced Resurrection to be a SCH only ability, that'd be at least 15 levels between Sastasha and Haukke Manor without Raise, versus every other healer who gets theirs at level 12 and just... has it.

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Originally Posted by Sfia

Regarding the upcoming 4.2 changes, there are really 3 areas we need to think about.

First is offensive buffs, this can be as simple as potency increases, cast time reductions or spell interactions. Honestly, this needs to be in the changes but it's pretty basic stuff that shouldn't be too in depth, it just needs to meet the benchmark of "does this do enough damage" which we currently do not.

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Fully agree. Black Mage seriously needs their damage beefed up, since we do not have enough damage to make up for a lack of utility nor our lack of mobility.

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Originally Posted by Sfia

Secondly is QoL changes, maybe some workaround to make weaving our role actions easier or make them more user friendly (why does mana shift cost mp???), these can have very minor end dps effects but won't make or break the jobs balance, just it's flow and feel.

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Manashift costs MP because you're literally shifting MP. But in either case, QoL changes are neccessary.

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Originally Posted by Sfia

Most importantly though is it's defensive utility, and that will ultimately determine whether or not this job gets played in progression ever again (outside of blackcat) by most caster mains.

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Honestly, defensive utility is a massively optional supplement... but let's hear it.

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Originally Posted by Sfia

Currently is has none of this and that really solidifies the job as an underperformer.

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Black Mage is difficult for progression because it's turrety and requires attention from both other raid members and the BLM to perform well. In areas that are dictated by movement and RNG, BLM really begins to suffer highly for their choice, much less during progression. As many have stated, BLMs seriously begin to rise in usability the better they know a fight and the better the raid accommodates to them. Preferably, a class that doesn't need accommodation to do well would make a better BLM, but I digress.

But if I were to point to something for BLM to be an underperformer, it's the fact that it doesn't do enough damage to make up for a lack of utility or its turrety nature.

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Originally Posted by Sfia

I was thinking about how to create a defensive identity for this class that isn't just a raise and the power budget needing to be allocated to match this is insane.

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Except BLM doesn't need a defensive utility beyond Manaward, which if it worked as intended, should be an occasional crutch to our turreting. Unless, of course, said utility is entirely selfish.

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Originally Posted by Sfia

Throughout Omega prog would you rather have access to Tank LB3 or Raise?

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Former. I'd rather not waste attention nor MP of either myself nor the healers, though BLM doesn't historically have a defensive buff that wasn't Apocatastasis.

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Originally Posted by Sfia

Would you rather have refresh+tactitian or Raise?

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Neither, BLM doesn't play nice with others regarding resources (historically at least, keeping the resources it builds up to itself (Osmose and Drains)) nor has it ever had a Raise under its own power.

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Originally Posted by Sfia

Would you rather have Hallowed Ground or Raise?

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Honestly, Hallowed Ground variants would work the best for BLM since we need to stand still to hit hard.

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Originally Posted by Sfia

These are all (in my opinion) things I would give up for the ability to raise while learning a fight, which kinda demonstrates just how powerful a non-raise equivalent skill for BLM would have to be.

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Raise is only a crutch that doesn't win the party its victory, and players need to learn the mechanics in order to not die... unless a mechanic does come that demands perishing. My static has found that Raising actually detriments the party almost as much as leaving the party member for dead, between the party member not lining up well with mechanics and their damage already having been lost from their death... so that already leaves problems.

I think a lot of people overvalue Raise, which also happens to really affect the potency of Red Mage as a byproduct, because they're all expected to use their convenient ability to Raise whenever things go sour, whether or not it helps.

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

Raise is only a crutch that doesn't win the party its victory, and players need to learn the mechanics in order to not die... unless a mechanic does come that demands perishing.

My static has found that Raising actually detriments the party almost as much as leaving the party member for dead, between the party member not lining up well with mechanics and their damage already having been lost from their death... so that already leaves problems.

I think a lot of people overvalue Raise, which also happens to really affect the potency of Red Mage as a byproduct, because they're all expected to use their convenient ability to Raise whenever things go sour, whether or not it helps.

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Raise is not that useful for optimization or good runs. The value of Raise is most apparent in blind progression when you do not understand how mechanics work. Being able to see another 30 seconds of the encounter, even if you eventually wipe anyway, is immensely important in my humble opinion. Once everyone understands the fight, Raise (from DPS) becomes a lot less important.

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Originally Posted by lulunami

Raise is not that useful for optimization or good runs. The value of Raise is most apparent in blind progression when you do not understand how mechanics work. Being able to see another 30 seconds of the encounter, even if you eventually wipe anyway, is immensely important in my humble opinion. Once everyone understands the fight, Raise (from DPS) becomes a lot less important.

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Indeed, but even IN progression, survival is still pretty important on its own on top of learning the mechanics. But we're also left a bit of a dilemma.

As it stands, Raise is so overvalued that Black Mage is underutilized until after progression, on top of BLM's myriad issues. However, this leaves the job that has the easiest Raise, Red Mage being significantly undervalued for its lack of usefulness beyond rezzing.

Both need to be addressed, to be honest.

I think that RDM beign the only job that requires an outside sustain in addition to having 1 less role action avaible to them is somewhat insulting, but nobody cares because of dualcast raise, which is sad because it makes the community less reliable on feedback since it shows that we overlook on things when they benefit us

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Originally Posted by Sfia

Regarding the upcoming 4.2 changes, there are really 3 areas we need to think about.

First is offensive buffs, this can be as simple as potency increases, cast time reductions or spell interactions. Honestly, this needs to be in the changes but it's pretty basic stuff that shouldn't be too in depth, it just needs to meet the benchmark of "does this do enough damage" which we currently do not.

Secondly is QoL changes, maybe some workaround to make weaving our role actions easier or make them more user friendly (why does mana shift cost mp???), these can have very minor end dps effects but won't make or break the jobs balance, just it's flow and feel.

Most importantly though is it's defensive utility, and that will ultimately determine whether or not this job gets played in progression ever again (outside of blackcat) by most caster mains. Currently is has none of this and that really solidifies the job as an underperformer. I was thinking about how to create a defensive identity for this class that isn't just a raise and the power budget needing to be allocated to match this is insane. Throughout Omega prog would you rather have access to Tank LB3 or Raise? Would you rather have refresh+tactitian or Raise? Would you rather have Hallowed Ground or Raise? These are all (in my opinion) things I would give up for the ability to raise while learning a fight, which kinda demonstrates just how powerful a non-raise equivalent skill for BLM would have to be.

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Muh dude. I am so glad you are here. Like you don't even know.


1. Definitely potency increases, but I really hope they consider the usability of Thundercloud more carefully (increase its timer and by extension its total potency, possibly make additive to avoid wasted ticks or "sting" a la my other suggestion post). At this point I'd be amazed if Fire IV wasn't buffed to 280, and we can pray to the Twelve that they consider adjusting Flare/Foul falloff.

2. Maybe they'll finally adjust Umbral Ice not to be reliant on server ticks, and I'd be amazed again if they didn't increase the proc timers to 30 seconds. I'd also love to see a Convert adjustment and decrease recast on Aetherial Manipulation. Mana Shift costing no MP would be a good idea probably, particularly with regard to how much stronger Refresh is. Oh, and Freeze please, for crying out loud.

3. Bless you. Thank you. Bless you.


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I think Tsumi (or Harold? I forget) mentioned in discord the other day what this game REALLY NEEDS is class correspondents from endgame who are willing to consort directly (and FAIRLY) on what player opinion really is about balance and how it might be addressed accordingly.


The forums certainly make for..... Option Paralysis...... to put it delicately.
Note: By saying this, I'm not insinuating that I'm interested in "silencing opinions", only that opinions must be taken in context to be relevant for serious consideration (Shisui AFKers).

And yes @Remedi, before you even say anything, I know we already talked about how the playerbase is not necessarily "unbiased" and sometimes can advocate for the wrong thing or doesn't know what it wants, etc., yes. But still, I think it would be pretty valuable at this point, and consider that they even invited the world first Unending group for an interview. Could be just that simple, particularly if they're all Japanese players (bam).

On the subject of more potency, it's boring but effective

On the subject of more defensive options, given that they removed our ability to ignore physical busters (Old School Mana Wall) I don't see us getting a "Get out of Mechanic Free" card through a Manaward buff. Plus they tend to code things that ignore that these days so, you know.

For spell interactions, both Umbral Hearts and Convert could gain an additional effect: Extends your current Beneficial Effect timers. This would include AF/UI timers, Surecast, Sharpcast, Leylines, etc.

For soft numbers: Umbral Hearts extend these by 2 and Convert extends them by 15. This primarily is a Turreting increase, where you have the ability to plop down and go to town, and indirectly increases the value of Spellspeed (Because then the goal is to have Fire1-less AF phases during your turret time)

@Llugen you forget that in the same interwiew they said they targeted ultimate to be cleared by any jobs unless you are in the wf race which means that to them competitive play being somewhat unbalanced is fine.
Frankly in all my years I've never seen competitive to be EVER balanced completely, it's simply impossible to achieve, there's no middle ground you either are on one spectrum or you are not. You could run ultimate without ACT for example but that would be shooting yourself in the foot, which can be said the same for composition, if you run for wf or if you run competitively to get the kill you'll want to have the most efficent comp your skill can get you.

As for them asking directly what to do to high end players so that they can paralyse some ideas. Well allow me to say you contradict yourself. You say that discussing ideas brings more ideas and fleshes out them more yet now you ask that only one guy should be the one to amass them to SE?
That's quite the power you are giving a single guy eh and speaking freely I don't think he really needs this level of fanboysm simply because he shares your ideas on raise.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

@Llugen you forget that in the same interwiew they said they targeted ultimate to be cleared by any jobs unless you are in the wf race which means that to them competitive play being somewhat unbalanced is fine.
Frankly in all my years I've never seen competitive to be EVER balanced completely, it's simply impossible to achieve, there's no middle ground you either are on one spectrum or you are not. You could run ultimate without ACT for example but that would be shooting yourself in the foot, which can be said the same for composition, if you run for wf or if you run competitively to get the kill you'll want to have the most efficent comp your skill can get you.

As for them asking directly what to do to high end players so that they can paralyse some ideas. Well allow me to say you contradict yourself. You say that discussing ideas brings more ideas and fleshes out them more yet now you ask that only one guy should be the one to amass them to SE?
That's quite the power you are giving a single guy eh and speaking freely I don't think he really needs this level of fanboysm simply because he shares your ideas on raise.

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You are right that it is nigh on impossible for it to be balance competitively, however, when a class has been out of the meta since the start of 3.0 (Although it took a few patches for it to solidify, with the triple melee comp eventually losing out to the current double ranged comp that has dominated since Patch 3.3), its unacceptable. The only real change to the meta is Red Mage being used in progression because of its raise utility.

I don't think giving BLM a raise will fix the class at all. Its got inherent DPS issues which will mean its going to always be outside of the meta, and compared to RDM has a steeper learning curve - you can take a RDM into a fight blind and do a lot better than with a BLM.

Once the DPS issues are fixed on BLM though, they still need to address the chunkiness of the class. There's a lot of QoL needed.

I don't expect SE to do it perfectly, but I at least expect them to try and break up this awful meta comp that has stuck around for so long. SMN was a good try at that, but its still outshone by NIN/BRD/MCH/DRG. I think SE should certainly ask players who play the game their advice and take it into account - it would be a good idea.

The funny thing is that I'm not advocating for doing nothing but w/e

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

Raise is only a crutch that doesn't win the party its victory, and players need to learn the mechanics in order to not die... unless a mechanic does come that demands perishing. My static has found that Raising actually detriments the party almost as much as leaving the party member for dead, between the party member not lining up well with mechanics and their damage already having been lost from their death... so that already leaves problems.

I think a lot of people overvalue Raise, which also happens to really affect the potency of Red Mage as a byproduct, because they're all expected to use their convenient ability to Raise whenever things go sour, whether or not it helps.

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This is so true, I mean, if you need more raise than what your healer can dish, you've already lost the dps check. (unless you highly overgear the fight, then one can ask why you keep dying)


I'd actually wish they'd change raise to be instant with a 1min CD shared by every parrty member.
Beside making healer save mana, having a RDM/SMN over a BLM would have no impact so that'd be one thing.

They could also make rez cost 0 mana, Imo, the 10sec of animation lost +1min of -25%% dps stat is more than enough to punish any group.

As a side note, when people tell me RDM/SMN can rez healer if they're both dead. Oh boy the boss better be dead soon if both you're healer died

Regarding the meta, unless they add a proper magic weakness (which would just create a special caster meta with a NIN), there's no way they'll ever balance job as long as there is damage type debuff. It's just impossibel. I know Piercing has been nerfed from 10 to 5%, but still, 5% dps increased on 1 or 2 players (I do not consider the dragon since it's kind of part of its own toolkit you know, a bit like the monk), is just insane. It's like if these two player have a permanent balance on.
And the worst, if only these 2 jobs were "selfish" dps like SAM or BLM, but no, they're those amazing buffing range with a ton of utility.

Discussing ideas and THEN presenting them, I feel like that's not contradictory, but it's a fair shot.


There's still definitely something to be said for the "weights" of opinion. Again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with AFKing in Limsa with your Shisui armor on, but it is absurd to think that the opinion of someone that participates only in that content somehow deserves a say in balance at endgame. This isn't difficult to grasp, I hope.


The "overvaluing" of Raise is irrelevant in that whether or not people "overvalue" it, it is still valued significantly. As Remedi said, it's the "ultimate" progression tool. Not sure it's even possible to "overvalue" it. It's somewhat staggering that this apparently needs to be stated.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

This is so true, I mean, if you need more raise than what your healer can dish, you've already lost the dps check. (unless you highly overgear the fight, then one can ask why you keep dying)
Beside making healer save mana, having a RDM/SMN over a BLM would have no impact so that'd be one thing.

As a side note, when people tell me RDM/SMN can rez healer if they're both dead. Oh boy the boss better be dead soon if both you're healer died

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I'm sorry but this is horrendously untrue. Progressing a fight means seeing more of it, and practicing each part until you can perform the whole. Even if the pull is not a clear, you can learn a lot from every wipe and increase the value of your time many times over simply by the ability to remove stress from healers, or revive them.

DPS checks in this game are currently so lax there is no relevant fight that cannot be beaten with multiple deaths even in progression level gearing, and if your team is failing DPS checks in Deltascape due to res sickness then you need to look at your perfomance honestly and critically.

I mean this with as much courtesy as possible but you simply don't have the understanding of raiding required to realize how potent raising is in this game

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

Regarding the meta, unless they add a proper magic weakness (which would just create a special caster meta with a NIN), there's no way they'll ever balance job as long as there is damage type debuff. It's just impossibel. I know Piercing has been nerfed from 10 to 5%, but still, 5% dps increased on 1 or 2 players (I do not consider the dragon since it's kind of part of its own toolkit you know, a bit like the monk), is just insane. It's like if these two player have a permanent balance on.
And the worst, if only these 2 jobs were "selfish" dps like SAM or BLM, but no, they're those amazing buffing range with a ton of utility.

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There are many changes they can make to achieve a balance, currently disembowel synergy is the benchmark for how powerful something would need to be to overcome what is now meta.

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

Indeed, but even IN progression, survival is still pretty important on its own on top of learning the mechanics. But we're also left a bit of a dilemma.

As it stands, Raise is so overvalued that Black Mage is underutilized until after progression, on top of BLM's myriad issues. However, this leaves the job that has the easiest Raise, Red Mage being significantly undervalued for its lack of usefulness beyond rezzing.

Both need to be addressed, to be honest.

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This. So much this.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

You are right that it is nigh on impossible for it to be balance competitively, however, when a class has been out of the meta since the start of 3.0 (Although it took a few patches for it to solidify, with the triple melee comp eventually losing out to the current double ranged comp that has dominated since Patch 3.3), its unacceptable. The only real change to the meta is Red Mage being used in progression because of its raise utility.

I don't think giving BLM a raise will fix the class at all. Its got inherent DPS issues which will mean its going to always be outside of the meta, and compared to RDM has a steeper learning curve - you can take a RDM into a fight blind and do a lot better than with a BLM.

Once the DPS issues are fixed on BLM though, they still need to address the chunkiness of the class. There's a lot of QoL needed.

I don't expect SE to do it perfectly, but I at least expect them to try and break up this awful meta comp that has stuck around for so long. SMN was a good try at that, but its still outshone by NIN/BRD/MCH/DRG. I think SE should certainly ask players who play the game their advice and take it into account - it would be a good idea.

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I'm going to pretty much agree with this post as well. Back when I played trading card games, I got really tired of three-deck metas. However, it's worth noting that the meta in FINAL FANTASY XIV really doesn't matter unless you're going for world firsts. After that, maybe people should just not be selfish and learn how to play with black mages.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Discussing ideas and THEN presenting them, I feel like that's not contradictory, but it's a fair shot.


There's still definitely something to be said for the "weights" of opinion. Again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with AFKing in Limsa with your Shisui armor on, but it is absurd to think that the opinion of someone that participates only in that content somehow deserves a say in balance at endgame. This isn't difficult to grasp, I hope.

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The thing is that guy could be some1 that played the meta game enough to still understand how things are.
What you do to spend your time is irrilevant if you played at a certain level you can still recognize problems in the balance at a glance or with few researches.

That said it's higly unlikely that ppl that have no interest in raiding are really using this section of the forum and frankly most of the ppl playing do not use the forum at all

Still you are entrusting to a single entity this job which is not the safest route, especially how notorious the forums are for creating echo chambers, which makes this all the more difficult to succed as such it's simply not good enough to even try.

However I'm not against the hearing of a larger group. I mean If they were to hear most of the groups in the high end a general idea will come out and they can work with it.

"Hearing" but with consideration is the point of what I'm trying to say.

WHY are they saying it? Over the course of the other thread regarding Raise, we practically "proved" that most of the people who were so against raise were so because they weren't interested in the idea of BLM being part of the "teamwork" of the roles. Is THAT something to "consider" as heavily as those clearing unending where teamwork is the most valuable aspect of the fight..?

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Originally Posted by Llugen

"Hearing" but with consideration is the point of what I'm trying to say.

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We do this, which is why we reject a lot of what you say in defense of black mage getting a Raise variant on the other thread.

A collation of my thoughts about BLM. I'm sure there's mistakes/other ideas and things I have missed.

What's wrong with BLM?

The issue with BLM is a complicated one. The major issue is the lack of raw dps - but there are issues with other classes/party comps as well as QoL issues that makes the class undesirable.

* Lack of Raid DPS
This can be solved in a number of ways - however, I feel that part of the buff should increase the power to umbral hearts as there are situations where using Blizzard 4 is a dps loss. At the end of the day, BLM needs to have enough DPS to justify it not having utility, and its not even close to achieving that. http://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/ (thanks to /u/blackcatchen) - this isn't 100% accurate, as it favors the damage dealing classes rather than the source of the utility (as you can read here: http://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/changelog). Even if you compare it to SAM (which has more DPS and doesn't have the uptime issues BLM has) - its inferior. And SAM also deserves buffs (along with RDM, but that's a whole different debate in my opinion as it has something absolutely unique).

* Disembowel.
Until Disembowel gets reworked, its going to take a completely broken class to break the Bard/Machinist/Dragoon/Ninja combo. It would be interesting if the disembowel buff was changed to be a personal buff only - or perhaps allow Dragoon to tailor the buff to different damage types by having an option of 3 spells (although I suspect that may lead to other issues).

* Synergy with Raid buffs
BLM used to be reliant of stacking buffs in your raging strike burst windows to do good damage, and because those burst windows were every 3 minutes, it did suffer. However now, we don't even have that. Our burst windows are every 90 seconds with a fairly small haste buff, and every 3 minutes we get convert - which is a very weak 3 minute OGCD that gives you two extra F4's when used correctly. Now, compared to raid DPS buffs that affect BLM - Trick attack is every 60 seconds, Foe's is usually around every 60 seconds, Contagion (not meta) is every 60 seconds. Furthermore, if our UI phase is inside a trick timing, its pretty bad for us because we don't have any on demand burst (it would be nice if Foul fit that role) - best case scenario is, we get Foul/F4/F4/F4/F3 proc out during our second AF window. This would lead us into problems with our Umbral Ice phase, but that is explained later. But we can't reliably ensure we have our best burst during that point in time because of procs - sometimes we may be at the start of our AF rotation, sometimes the start of our second AF, or sometimes at Umbral Ice - procs can force us to be at the wrong stage of our rotation. One solution of this could be to move the passive for Enochian to Astral Fire 4, and to change Enochian that is an OGCD that gives 3 Stacks of AF4 and 3 Umbral Hearts. I would also reduce the cooldown of Ley Lines to 60 seconds (from 90), but nerf the duration to 20 seconds (from 30).

**QoL issues with the class**

* Clipping
BLM is the only caster that does not have a reliable way of using OGCD's on demand without clipping, compounded by the tight timings for AF and UI. If you clip in order to use LeyLines, depending on your latency you can lose a decent amount of the gain you get from it. If you need to use Apoc or Addle at specific points, you end up having to clip if you aren't lucky with procs. Outside of procs, the windows you have to use an OGCD without punishment is your your Sharp/Triple/Swiftcast phases, or at the start of your fire/ice rotation. Given this, it would be nice if BLM's could use OGCD's while casting.

* Punishment for too many Thundercloud Procs
There are times where you can get punished for getting too many procs. You can work around it if you are in your Ley Lines or you are in your Sharpcast/Swiftcast/Triplecast window, but it is nevertheless frustrating outside of that. You have to choose between either using it and losing a F4, or holding onto it and using it in your second AF or your UI rotation - risking your proc being overwritten. You could fix this in a number of ways - either allow the procs to extend your AF/UI timer so you can use them instantly - or allow procs to stack similar to Bard so you can hold them on demand. You can even buff the duration so that procs priority is clear and it makes switching out a F4 for a proc always worth it (although I'd rather that be a last resort).

* Mana costs
Because of the strict nature of your mana costs for your fire rotation, you will sometimes not have enough mana to cast Blizzard 4 at the start of your UI rotation. This happens when you don't end your UI rotation on a 0 cost spell and don't get a mana tick after your final cast, or if you skip Blizzard 4 and don't get a mana tick. This means that Foul's position (excluding procs) will be at the start of your UI rotation. You can't finish off with a Thunder 3 cast because you won't have enough mana for your fire rotation, meaning you have 0 flexibility in your umbral ice phase. Its Foul > Thunder 3 > Blizzard 4. Furthermore, you must make sure you use Mana shift BEFORE your last mana tick or you'll go into AF not being able to do 6 x F4. Making all mana costs (including mana shift) 0 mana in Umbral ice would mean your UI phase is flexible.

* Increasing the Power of Umbral Hearts/B4
Currently, Blizzard 4 gives you 3 Umbral Hearts that reduce the mana cost of F4 by half. Without Umbral hearts, you can do a 2F4,F1,2F4 rotation. However, if you start AF with full mana (by finishing your previous UI with a Proc), you can actually do 5 F4's. The issue with it is you need to ensure you have a foul ready for your next AF because otherwise you are waiting on a mana tick afterwards. What this means is that for one GCD in UI, you get one extra F4 - which means that a new mechanic isn't getting used. From a personal standpoint, I don't like the mechanic anyway - I feel it should be interactive, but that isn't going to happen. You could increase the number of Umbral hearts, but that would require UI changes so I suspect SE won't go for anything like that. I'm honestly unsure what you can do with this. If you increase the mana reduction, you waste it because of our tight astral fire timing and increasing the AF timer just turns the rotation into F4 spam. I think either the trait needs to be reworked, or it needs to be removed.

* Other Notes
I'd like to see Convert being made useful - either reduce its cooldown down to 60 seconds, or increase its power drastically. I'd also like to see Freeze give One Umbral heart, and Fire 2 getting a small buff so they are both useful in an AOE rotation. I'd also like to see Foul changed so that stacks up for each spell cast to reward players that can keep pumping out spells.

* No Raise on BLM. Stop peddling this
I absolutely do not want to see BLM get raise. There's already enough classes with that utility. If you must give BLM some unique utility, then I would suggest reworking Manaward (perhaps so it is AOE?), or perhaps another skill that gives us unique defensive utility like many other classes have. But this could be problematic and lead to power creep from other classes and is not essential to make BLM meta. It would be interesting if we had personal limit breaks for a mega ability like this.

With Thunder and Firestarter, I've suggested two ways of handling getting the proc buff.

For Thundercloud, I suggested Aether Static, which would generate from every tic of your Thunder/Thunder II/Thunder III/Thunder IV on targets. It'd be a gauge that filled to 100, and when it reaches 100, you get Thundercloud. Thunder III ticks would give 15 points whilst Thunder IV would give 7.

Firestarter would be built up using Astral Hearts, obtained by using Fire IV. Each Fire IV affected by Umbral Hearts would give a single Astral Heart, and having at least one will grant Black Mage a confirmed Firestarter at the cost of all Astral Hearts. However, each Astral Heart would also buff Fire's base potency by 20 per Heart, granting them 240 potency on a full Fire IV rotation.

I don't get how freeze,blizzard 2 sleep and scathe are still there...They are useful for low level dungeons but sleep could have been added to cross role or freeze and blizzard 2 could have had a upgrade or some kind of change.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

* No Raise on BLM. Stop peddling this
I absolutely do not want to see BLM get raise. There's already enough classes with that utility. If you must give BLM some unique utility, then I would suggest reworking Manaward (perhaps so it is AOE?), or perhaps another skill that gives us unique defensive utility like many other classes have.

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QUOTED. FOR. EMPHASIS.

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Originally Posted by MysticDreamer

I don't get how freeze,blizzard 2 sleep and scathe are still there...They are useful for low level dungeons but sleep could have been added to cross role or freeze and blizzard 2 could have had a upgrade or some kind of change.

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Llugen has a good proposal on how to make Freeze work as for the other 2, B2 can be considered power crept out by freeze if Llugen Idea comes to fruition while scathe imho should be heavily changed

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

With Thunder and Firestarter, I've suggested two ways of handling getting the proc buff.

For Thundercloud, I suggested Aether Static, which would generate from every tic of your Thunder/Thunder II/Thunder III/Thunder IV on targets. It'd be a gauge that filled to 100, and when it reaches 100, you get Thundercloud. Thunder III ticks would give 15 points whilst Thunder IV would give 7.

Firestarter would be built up using Astral Hearts, obtained by using Fire IV. Each Fire IV affected by Umbral Hearts would give a single Astral Heart, and having at least one will grant Black Mage a confirmed Firestarter at the cost of all Astral Hearts. However, each Astral Heart would also buff Fire's base potency by 20 per Heart, granting them 240 potency on a full Fire IV rotation.

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That wouldn't solve the issues with Thundercloud. The firestarter changes would mean we lose out of 2 Fire IV's/Fire I's, would override Sharpcasts usage and would also mean you would do a F1/F1/F4/F4/F4/F4 rotation which would lead to other problems. I just think the Umbral hearts need a complete rework along with mana changes to maintain the current standard 3 x F4/F1/3 x F4 rotation/

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

That wouldn't solve the issues with Thundercloud. The firestarter changes would mean we lose out of 2 Fire IV's/Fire I's, would override Sharpcasts usage and would also mean you would do a F1/F1/F4/F4/F4/F4 rotation which would lead to other problems. I just think the Umbral hearts need a complete rework along with mana changes to maintain the current standard 3 x F4/F1/3 x F4 rotation/

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Thundercloud would be solved as it won't be unpredictable and won't be forced to compromise the rotation or Astral Fire and Umbral Ice.

As for the Firestarter change, you've utterly misunderstood what I've suggested.

My proposed change would maintain the Fire IV x3 rotation, but also guarantee that Fire procs Firestarter, while also boosting Fire. Meanwhile, the "all Astral Hearts will be consumed by Fire" effect to guarantee Firestarter would also allow for the rotation to continue if you're forced to move for some reason.

Besides the point, Fire IV would only generate Astral Hearts while affected by Umbral Hearts, essentially replacing the Umbral Heart they consume with an Astral Heart. This would make the 8x Fire IV starter easier, and also make Fire I seem less of a penalty for casting in the rotation.

Sharpcast has always been a weird ability that... was a bandage to our gambling addiction rather than a solution and part of the problem WITH Black Mage is the gamble regarding Firestarter and Thundercloud, which are objectively gambles. Thundercloud especially is a gamble, considering it's one of our heavy hitters in our rotation, below only Fire IV in terms of raw damage without even counting the damage over time that comes with it.

I did propose to change sharpcast to an ability that buffs the dmg on our next spellcast, seems ppl did not agree on that much though we could use that

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

Thundercloud would be solved as it won't be unpredictable and won't be forced to compromise the rotation or Astral Fire and Umbral Ice.

As for the Firestarter change, you've utterly misunderstood what I've suggested.

My proposed change would maintain the Fire IV x3 rotation, but also guarantee that Fire procs Firestarter, while also boosting Fire. Meanwhile, the "all Astral Hearts will be consumed by Fire" effect to guarantee Firestarter would also allow for the rotation to continue if you're forced to move for some reason.

Besides the point, Fire IV would only generate Astral Hearts while affected by Umbral Hearts, essentially replacing the Umbral Heart they consume with an Astral Heart. This would make the 8x Fire IV starter easier, and also make Fire I seem less of a penalty for casting in the rotation.

Sharpcast has always been a weird ability that... was a bandage to our gambling addiction rather than a solution and part of the problem WITH Black Mage is the gamble regarding Firestarter and Thundercloud, which are objectively gambles. Thundercloud especially is a gamble, considering it's one of our heavy hitters in our rotation, below only Fire IV in terms of raw damage without even counting the damage over time that comes with it.

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The problem with Thundercloud isn't his unpredictability and it will still compromise the rotation of Astral Fire and Umbral Ice because it doesn't extend the timer nor does it always do enough damage to be worth using over a F4. The issue is being able to use the procs and the chances of the proc getting overwritten. It is the same issue as 3.0 BLM and Thundercloud.

Your proposed change would not maintain the Fire IV rotation as we wouldn't have enough mana. Firestarter does not need any changes, and the skill floor of the class is not the issue here. Its the ceiling.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

The problem with Thundercloud isn't his unpredictability and it will still compromise the rotation of Astral Fire and Umbral Ice because it doesn't extend the timer nor does it always do enough damage to be worth using over a F4. The issue is being able to use the procs and the chances of the proc getting overwritten. It is the same issue as 3.0 BLM and Thundercloud.

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Unpredictability is just one problem with Thundercloud, but the other problems, like the proc being overwritten do exist as well. My proposal would end that right then and there, replacing randomness with a Thundercloud that you will be able to plan around and use when you're not in the middle of the Fire IV rotation. AKA: the part of the rotation that has the biggest issues when Thundercloud is involved.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Your proposed change would not maintain the Fire IV rotation as we wouldn't have enough mana. Firestarter does not need any changes, and the skill floor of the class is not the issue here. Its the ceiling.

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'
Okay, how wouldn't we have enough mana for the Astral Hearts? As far as my proposal is concerned, you'd need 3 Umbral Hearts'd Fire IVs to get Firestarter. That's basically no different from the Fire IV rotation than we have now, with Fire IV x3, Fire, Fire IV x3. Unless you're assuming that you would get Astral Hearts from Fire 1, the rotation would stay the same but access to Firestarter and the potency to Fire 1 would rise.

Astral Hearts would only replace the Umbral Heart on the Fire IV that it is casted with. That is to say, if you do the normal Fire IV rotation with 3 Umbral Hearts, you will get to Fire 1 with 3 Astral Hearts, with the MP reductions having been applied.

Or, for simplicity's sake, whenever we'd cast a Fire IV affected by Umbral Hearts under my proposal, we'd get the MP reduction, and the Umbral Heart turns red/orange, turning it into an Astral Heart. When you have at least 1 Astral Heart, your next Fire 1 cast will consume all Astral Hearts, add 20 potency to its base per Heart consumed (1 Heart turning Fire to 200 potency, 2 Hearts giving it 220 potency, and 3 Hearts giving it 240 potency), and proc Firestarter.

Also, Black Mage's skill ceiling has always been pretty "low" and linked to its floor until movement is a problem, that is assuming this definition is right:

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Skill floor usually refers to the minimum skill required to play X decently.

Skill ceiling refers to the skill required to play X to it's maximum potential.

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

Unpredictability is just one problem with Thundercloud, but the other problems, like the proc being overwritten do exist as well. My proposal would end that right then and there, replacing randomness with a Thundercloud that you will be able to plan around and use when you're not in the middle of the Fire IV rotation. AKA: the part of the rotation that has the biggest issues when Thundercloud is involved.

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It isn't a problem at all.

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

Okay, how wouldn't we have enough mana for the Astral Hearts? As far as my proposal is concerned, you'd need 3 Umbral Hearts'd Fire IVs to get Firestarter. That's basically no different from the Fire IV rotation than we have now, with Fire IV x3, Fire, Fire IV x3. Unless you're assuming that you would get Astral Hearts from Fire 1, the rotation would stay the same but access to Firestarter and the potency to Fire 1 would rise.

Astral Hearts would only replace the Umbral Heart on the Fire IV that it is casted with. That is to say, if you do the normal Fire IV rotation with 3 Umbral Hearts, you will get to Fire 1 with 3 Astral Hearts, with the MP reductions having been applied.

Or, for simplicity's sake, whenever we'd cast a Fire IV affected by Umbral Hearts under my proposal, we'd get the MP reduction, and the Umbral Heart turns red/orange, turning it into an Astral Heart. When you have at least 1 Astral Heart, your next Fire 1 cast will consume all Astral Hearts, add 20 potency to its base per Heart consumed, and proc Firestarter.

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So you aren't suggesting a replacement to Umbral Hearts? Firestarter doesn't need changing and this absolutely is not the issue with BLM currently. I don't think you actually understand the issues with the class in Savage and Ultimate level gameplay.

I'm not against a mechanic like Astral Hearts, but the mechanic you describe literally does nothing to address the problems of the class.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

It isn't a problem at all.

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Considering that BLM's DPS can massively fluctuate by the will of the RNG? It's pretty much always an issue as it throws potency out of the player's hands in into the hands of sheer luck. Not to mention, by removing that randomness and its urgency, it removes the potential of having to choose Thunder over a Fire IV, which is something that you've admitted ruins a rotation.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

So you aren't suggesting a replacement to Umbral Hearts? Firestarter doesn't need changing and this absolutely is not the issue with BLM currently. I don't think you actually understand the issues with the class in Savage and Ultimate level gameplay.

I'm not against a mechanic like Astral Hearts, but the mechanic you describe literally does nothing to address the problems of the class.

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I'm IN Savage, and my static has been struggling against Halicarnassus quite a bit. Part of it has to do with the boss's love of screwing with movement and timing to the point that it's honestly rather difficult to keep the rotation up for long. And Black Mage's issues have a lot to do with underwhelming damage and damage fluctuation. Sometimes, it'll underperform, sometimes it'll be utterly worthless with damage and sometimes it'll be at the right spot.

Thundercloud being almost entirely at the will of RNG is a huge issue, and needs to be addressed. Firestarter, one of our most vital tools to extending our Astral Fire rotation, needs to be addressed. Sharpcast did nothing to address them, beyond a quick bandaid. There are other issues needing to be addressed but these are the issues that I've tried to address. Perhaps Thundercloud's potency should also be increased as a result of the aether static proposal removing the "random" Thunderclouds or the Astral Hearts should boost Fire's potency more than just 20 per heart, but I don't know.

No offense but, blackcat has shown you a good way of countering halicarnassus, frankly she's not such a big deal even for BLM you can literally time every movement CD to any movement segment of her rotation

Even so, she still hampers with my rotation far more than I'd like, so either Blackcat is a lot better than she says she is (don't doubt it) or whatever.

While hashing the idea out in my static discord, another friend who happens to play Black Mage a bit suggested the following change, so Firestarter AS IS would remain, but it would improve the MP economy of Black Mage.

Trait: Astral Conversion: Casting a Fire Spell under the effect of an Umbral Heart converts the Umbral Heart to an Astral Heart. Astral Hearts decrease the cast time and cost of Fire by half and only consume one Astral Heart per cast. If a Fire cast under the effect of an Astral Heart procs Firestarter, the Firestarter will upgrade to Blazestarter/Infernostarter.

Blazestarter/Infernostarter: Your next cast of Flare will have no cast timer and no MP cost.