7.1 Dragoon Changes Complaints

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Originally Posted by HeavenlyArmed

After playing a bit more myself I have no idea where you're coming from. One minute windows are very boring now with so few buttons to press, and as I stated initially at levels below 100 there's just nothing to do ever. At level 70 after a Jump, Mirage Dive and your one Nastrond your one minute "burst" is finished, if you can even call it that. Again, I don't necessarily mind it being a little less busy during 2 minute windows at 100, but god this was not the way to do it, because everything that isn't that scenario feels significantly more boring. It's pushed me into basically maining Dancer in the new Ultimate because at least they have some variance and some stuff to build toward.

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That's why my suggestion is really good, especially if they introduce it at level 70(which they 100% should). Since it would be based on boost jump and the second mirage dive being available as a followup combo to the first mirage dive used in LotD it would be used in every burst window.

Everyone is asking for more jump abilities and a better low level experience, this is the best way to implement that. It fits the job's design direction too since we're getting so many followup oGCDs already. Why not add even more.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

To me, mechanical complexity in dexterity need to the player is a kind of complexity that yields no depth in a static-rotation setup (which if we're being honest all combat jobs currently are). That is, I find it superfluous. If my rotation is static either way, all having to press 3 buttons every 2.5s instead of 1 button does is give me RSI faster. And RSI is not a good thing, so that setup isn't a good thing. Either way I mentally am zoned out since it requires no thought to follow this rotation - that's why the devs do it that way so we can all focus on the fight mechanics.

And hence to me, there's no "loss" in having 2 extra free oGCD weaving spots. Honestly they could make the money alternating combat sequence an autocast, and that'd actually be more interesting (since it plays on its own that keeps me at least marginally on my toes for positionals). But it'd be exactly as "complex" as the current one. And it's the same with the excessive weaving to me.

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You are not entirely wrong here. On a different thought though - if a job offers no mechanical complexity in dexterity, and no mechanical complexity in interacting parts, then the sensation of pushing your buttons right gets less rewarding. As you say by yourself, most of the combat sequence can be pretty much put on autocast at this point, many rotation are incredibly static. For some people here in this thread, being able to be dexterous enough to hit all those oGCDs in the right timeframe was something to be happy about.
(That being said, I can't see how only having to look at positionals and not caring if the next button you press is the right one is somehow more interesting than doing both, but hey, if that is how you feel, that is how you feel :) )

However, others in this thread brought up another issue which plays into this entire discussion:
the experience of playing a job with an unfinished skillset.

At level 100, you may not feel the removal of 2 Nastronds that much gameplay wise, but the further you go down in the level ladder, the less tools you have available. Square has severly neglected the feel of classes outside of max level for years now, and it gets worse with each expansion. Perhaps the level sync system may need a revamp, but thats for an entirely different thread I'd say.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Ah, yeah I can see how others think differently there than me.

To me, mechanical complexity in dexterity need to the player is a kind of complexity that yields no depth in a static-rotation setup (which if we're being honest all combat jobs currently are). That is, I find it superfluous. If my rotation is static either way, all having to press 3 buttons every 2.5s instead of 1 button does is give me RSI faster. And RSI is not a good thing, so that setup isn't a good thing. Either way I mentally am zoned out since it requires no thought to follow this rotation - that's why the devs do it that way so we can all focus on the fight mechanics.

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I mentioned this in another thread but a massive issue in FFXIV job design is there is no meta-gameplay or interactive elements or mechanics to engage with inside the job kits. "Pressing lots of buttons" is really all the jobs have going for them. It's why many players really feel it when even a single button press is removed. Because the jobs have nothing else to fall back on as far as player engagement.

I would be completely down for fewer button presses that are more meaningful and amalgamating basic combos into a single button, but SE would have to add in some more engaging mechanics to the job kits. The way job design is right now though removing buttons directly translates into removing engagement, and it's why there's always a massive outcry whenever it's done.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

That's why my suggestion is really good, especially if they introduce it at level 70(which they 100% should). Since it would be based on boost jump and the second mirage dive being available as a followup combo to the first mirage dive used in LotD it would be used in every burst window.

Everyone is asking for more jump abilities and a better low level experience, this is the best way to implement that. It fits the job's design direction too since we're getting so many followup oGCDs already. Why not add even more.

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I mean, yeah, that would do it. That's why the only real critique I had of this idea was that I don't think it's likely that SE would introduce two new skills with new animations mid-expansion, I certainly wouldn't be opposed to it if they surprised me and did give us something like this.

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Originally Posted by HeavenlyArmed

I mean, yeah, that would do it. That's why the only real critique I had of this idea was that I don't think it's likely that SE would introduce two new skills with new animations mid-expansion, I certainly wouldn't be opposed to it if they surprised me and did give us something like this.

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Since the animations could just be red reskins of existing animations it might be more likely than you think. I wonder though, if they should make the boost jump and red dive into AoE abilities. Then jump and mirage dive would feel more meaningful in AoE situations while LotD is up. Our 2 minute AoE burst would be insane though so they'd have to change potencies again.

I would prefer them to do this change mid-expansion rather than on expansion launch though. I do agree strongly that there is not enough going on in the job prior to level 80, and even then all we get is stardiver.

I really do want life surge removed from the kit though to make room for this change(or reworked into a pure defensive). If they kept life surge as is while implementing boost jump and the red dive, I would be extremely put off. The only way I'd really be happy about life surge staying is if it was moved out of our burst window, which is another option. Either way, I don't think this is a bad exchange since life surge is such an inconsistent oGCD while this change would give us two guaranteed oGCD for every LotD window and also bring back interaction with the rest of our kit to mirage dive. Simple interaction sure since it's just using high jump and mirage dive during LotD which is something we already do, but interaction nonetheless. It would also be what I consider "good design", because the tooltips would teach you that you are supposed to be using high jump and mirage dive in every LotD window. I know it seems obvious to do so already, but it's not explicitly apparent just by reading tooltips alone.

It might even be interesting to go further with this LotD requirement and make it so dragonfire dive doesn't give rise of the dragon unless used during LotD. It's something we already do if we are playing the job correctly, but it would add free interaction to the kit while also guiding players to playing the job correctly.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Since the animations could just be red reskins of existing animations it might be more likely than you think.

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Yep, and also there's still a few animations Nidstinien used that we haven't gotten yet, so Square can just take those. Don't think it'll take a lot of effort for them add to those mid-expansion.

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Originally Posted by jonimated

I would be completely down for fewer button presses that are more meaningful and amalgamating basic combos into a single button, but SE would have to add in some more engaging mechanics to the job kits. The way job design is right now though removing buttons directly translates into removing engagement, and it's why there's always a massive outcry whenever it's done.

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Yeah that's kinda my point, we need mechanics that aren't just "static rotation perfection". Which can be fun, but usually you have 1-2 damage classes that have this as their central mechanism, the rest are either priority-based, resource-based or proc-based. Which FFXIV has none of, closest we get is Dancer which is kiiiinda priority-based in some aspects, but mostly just follows a static rotation, too. Everyone else: Static rotation with incredibly marginal variations, even Red Mage.

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Originally Posted by VerySadDRG

Yep, and also there's still a few animations Nidstinien used that we haven't gotten yet, so Square can just take those. Don't think it'll take a lot of effort for them add to those mid-expansion.

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Looks like they added the red mirage dive to mobile ffxiv lol, could be coming here next.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

Since they removed the tether, Dragon Sight just wasn't the same. If the tether was brought back though...

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I haven't been on here in AGES otherwise I would have posted before but...

I still do miss bellygoon tether though I'm one of those people that used the F keys to select people to target during my opener rather than use a macro because the lag is so horrible... Anyway it was fun and silly seeing it fly around while you jumped, etc. I liked that skill and still miss it.

For me also rather than boss attacks which is kind of whatever having a bunch of nastronds made AoE dmg like 2% less likely to fall asleep while doing expert roulette. I actually like aimed AoE attacks like how Monk used to be though only problem is tab targeting is horrendous in this game which can make it a pain.

Not much to add besides what people already said here otherwise, dragoon was awesome and the best melee design in endwalker, now not as much.