Yoshi P to Mr.Happy "Heal DPS is not mandatory and no expectation for Healer to DPS!"

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Originally Posted by Charisma

Just keep kicking healers who refuse to dps, and you will see healer dps completly removed in 5.0, because you people dont get it.

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If Yoshi wants to kill his game for the sake of principles, he can have his way.

Because with the way things are, removing healer DPS would only make any healers with but an onze of skill very, very bored, and would thus lead to a massive drop in population.

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Originally Posted by Aramina

No, we aren't. Go find me one post where someone has disputed that healing is a healers' priority. YOU may be talking about it, but if so, you are talking to yourself.

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Yoshi P to Mr.Happy "Heal DPS is not mandatory and no expectation for Healer to DPS!"

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Please refrain from taking the thread going somewhere you are confusing people as to what we are ACTUALLY talking here. Thanks

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Originally Posted by Mature

Please refrain from taking the thread going somewhere you are confusing people as to what we are ACTUALLY talking here. Thanks

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Please read the thread before telling me what it is about, thanks. You realize conversations evolve, yes?

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Originally Posted by Zojha

If Yoshi wants to kill his game for the sake of principles, he can have his way.

Because with the way things are, removing healer DPS would only make any healers with but an onze of skill very, very bored, and would thus lead to a massive drop in population.

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If you really believe this would damage the games popularity you are dellusional, you people always forget that you do not reflect the majority

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Originally Posted by Charisma

If you really believe this would damage the games popularity you are dellusional, you people always forget that you do not reflect the majority

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And you really think people would be interested in role that has nothing to do for 80% of the time in dungeons?

I'd still keep my healer for raid groups sake, but I would not do any ex dungeons as one - which would increase the amount of dungeon queues.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

I know we will probably never get an in-game parser or support for addons but you all are showing them exactly why they think we shouldn't. So what else will you all take away, because you felt you just had to tell someone they're not trying hard enough?

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The people that want parsers already have them and, spoiler alert, already vote kick based on dps performance.

If SE decides to put an end to healer dps because the design decisions that SE has made has led to the general ostracization of garbage tier healers who slack off in dungeons, then so be it. Until such a time, I don't have to put up with some essentially afk scrub.

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Originally Posted by Charisma

If you really believe this would damage the games popularity you are dellusional, you people always forget that you do not reflect the majority

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The game? No. The healer population? Absolutely. Do I think we are the majority? No. Do I think some would stop queueing as a healer entirely if it was made that brain dead? Yes. Ergo, whether 5 people or 500 or 5000 or 50000 quit healing it is still a drop in healer population. That said, it could very well drop overall population too (again, by how much is irrelevant to the point) if people decide that a primary healing role with some support backup is what they want to play and they can't get that in this game.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

If Yoshi wants to kill his game for the sake of principles, he can have his way.

Because with the way things are, removing healer DPS would only make any healers with but an onze of skill very, very bored, and would thus lead to a massive drop in population.

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I disagree - it is possible to design content that requires constant healing and not the scripted fights we see now where there is a burst (tank buster or static wide aoe dmg) that requires healing. The 'tick tick tick BOOM, tick tick tick BOOM' scripted content that we see. This design is what is creating healer to dps to relieve that boredom.

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Originally Posted by Anzaman

And you really think people would be interested in role that has nothing to do for 80% of the time in dungeons?

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It doesn't matter what i think, im not a lazy healer, but i also don't judge, i just said where this aggressive behavior could lead.

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Originally Posted by Deheuty

I disagree - it is possible to design content that requires constant healing and not the scripted fights we see now where there is a burst (tank buster or static wide aoe dmg) that requires healing. The 'tick tick tick BOOM, tick tick tick BOOM' scripted content that we see. This design is what is creating healer to dps to relieve that boredom.

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This is a fair point, but I don't think people are aware what they are asking for. I, for one, hope they do someday if for no other reason than to watch the inevitable shitstorm that would occur... but that aside, having to heal all the time is what I enjoy best.

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Originally Posted by Aramina

Please read the thread before telling me what it is about, thanks. You realize conversations evolve, yes?

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One thing is evolve and another is throwing unnecessary UNRELATED and UNFUNDED facts confusing them with personal preference which is not the top header \ actual discussion of the thread.

Healer - heals
Dps - DPS
Tank - tanks

Move on and be happy

Thanks

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Originally Posted by Mature

One thing is evolve and another is throwing unnecessary UNRELATED and UNFUNDED facts confusing them with personal preference which is not the top header \ actual discussion of the thread.

Healer - heals
Dps - DPS
Tank - tanks

Move on and be happy

Thanks

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This is a forum for conversation, if you don't wish to converse, then perhaps you should be the one to move on. There is exactly 0 conversational merit in something everyone agrees on (which would be tanks:tank healers:heal and dps:dps). Would you now like to discuss that the sky is blue or the grass is green or maybe water is wet?

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Originally Posted by Mature

Healer - heals
Dps - DPS
Tank - tanks

Move on and be happy

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And I'll quote my own post from earlier.

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Originally Posted by Anzaman

What happened to the fact that:

• Tanks have DPS combos for higher potency attacks when you've enough Enmity.
• Tanks have cooldowns that increases their damage output.
• Tanks have cooldowns that increase incoming healing, reduce incoming damage, or prevent incoming damage completely.
• Paladins have spells such as Clemency or Divine Veil.

• Bards have things like Mage's Ballad, Foe Requiem, Army's Paeon, The Warden's Paean.
• Summoner (along with Red Mage coming soon) have access to combat resurrection.
• Ninja has Smoke Screen, Shadewalker and Goad.
• Machinist has Promotion (TP/MP regen), Dismantle and Rend Mind.

• Astrologian have access to card system to increase party's damage output, restore resources or increase damage resistance.

Should I just stop using these since they don't belong to "main job" of each role?

• Why should I pop cooldowns or use DPS combo as tank? I'm keeping mobs on me just fine my repeating 1-2-3 combo over and over
• Why should I use Clemency or Divine Veil as Paladin? It's healers job to heal, not mine.
• Why should I worry about incoming damage, if I take more damage? Just press your heal twice every 30 seconds instead of once.
• Why should I worry about party MP or TP situation as Machinist or Bard? If I use Army's or Mage's.. it'll actually lower my damage output, so no thanks. You have your own ways of restoring MP/TP.
• Why should I use Foe as Bard? It increases magic damage, I'm shooting arrows.
• Why should I use combat resurrection as Summoner or Red Mage? It'll hinder my ability to do DPS and uses chunk of MP, you can do it healer. And with casting heal every 15 seconds, you should have reserves to do so.
• Why should I help tank with Smoke Screen or Shadewalker as Ninja? Tank is already only using Enmity rotation, so there's very small chance that I might grab enmity from him/her.
• Why should I use Goad as Ninja? I can't use it on myself, so it won't increase my DPS.
• Why should I use Dismantle or Rend as Machinist? It only decreases enemy's damage, so I gain nothing from using it.
• Why should I use cards as Astrologian? Why should I use them on anybody but myself? My job is to heal, nothing else.

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Originally Posted by Deheuty

I disagree - it is possible to design content that requires constant healing and not the scripted fights we see now where there is a burst (tank buster or static wide aoe dmg) that requires healing. The 'tick tick tick BOOM, tick tick tick BOOM' scripted content that we see. This design is what is creating healer to dps to relieve that boredom.

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I think that's a possibility. I mean it sort of works in WoW and it works in TERA (although mystics can now DPS to an extent). However, in more easier dungeons you do kind of have healers just sitting around if no one's taking damage, because it doesn't take that long to do their DPS support/buffing rotation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Oel2joX3JE

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

You guys understand this kind of harassment is why we don't get parsers, right? If this goes on, one day Yoshida will just gut healer dps completely so people don't attack others over it

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Harassment is the wrong word and implies that zero-dps healers are the victim, try toxicity and division. No matter what side you are on, both sides are accountable to the divide.

All this quote from Yoshi means is you can't tell non-dpsing healers that the game intends for them to dps on anything but the bleeding edge of content. Still plenty of other valid reasons to dps as a healer though.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Another Youtube interview with Yoshida paints a different picture on his stance. Essentially, the person paraphrased Yoshida's opinion as, "If we didn't want healers to DPS, we just would have removed Cleric Stance altogether."

https://youtu.be/8IpUtQrqCQg?t=17m10s

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Between this interview and the Mr. Happy one, what I take is healer dps isn't mandatory, but still encouraged. Not DPSing won't cause you to fail stuff (outside of the real hard fights), but you should still put forth the effort.

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Originally Posted by Aramina

This is a forum for conversation, if you don't wish to converse, then perhaps you should be the one to move on.

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That's what we all doing but sadly having people like you throwing random unrelated stuff to the thread doesn't help. It ruins the purpose of this conversation.

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Originally Posted by Khaidal

Between this interview and the Mr. Happy one, what I take is healer dps isn't mandatory, but still encouraged. Not DPSing won't cause you to fail stuff (outside of the real hard fights), but you should still put forth the effort.

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https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/13...ew-Translation

Read this, Yoshi P is talking as a player. He doesn't want players to feel anxious, and wants them to feel like the pressure isn't there. He fully acknowledges the importance of healer DPS, and the changes to cleric and damage have been designed around making damage more accessible. He even going as far as to say "Since things are more serious in raiding, on the other hand, you'll definitely want to DPS for the first clear. As item levels go up and you're after repeat clears, the roles may shift."

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Originally Posted by Mature

That's what we all doing but sadly having people like you throwing random unrelated stuff to the thread doesn't help. It ruins the purpose of this conversation.

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Are you actually trolling or just ignorant? What Aramina has been talking about is the entire pro-dps argument, and is the view that players who take the time to improve and learn about the game mechanics have towards healing. What you are talking about is your personal bias towards the roles, which actually does not reflect their design (just the little jobplate colour).

You aren't being asked to DPS, you are being asked to fill the downtime with something useful, which 9/10 is a DPS spell because it is the most useful alternative. Your priority is Heals > Mitigation > DoTs > Damage, not Heals > Mitigation > Overheals > Idle. That is the argument you are and have always been fighting against, and what YOU are saying is irrelevant and wrong.

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Originally Posted by Mature

That's what we all doing but sadly having people like you throwing random unrelated stuff to the thread doesn't help. It ruins the purpose of this conversation.

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No. You are not conversing. Saying tanks tank, healers heal, dps dps is *NOT* a conversation. It's an echo chamber.

Person 1: I think a tank's job should be to tank, and a healer's job should be to heal, and a dps job should be to dps.
Person 2: I agree.

That's your version of a conversation? Really?

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Originally Posted by Deheuty

I disagree - it is possible to design content that requires constant healing [...]

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Well yes, hence why I said:"With the way things are...".

But honestly? Non-static fights aren't much more fun and engaging design either. You'll still end up twiddling your thumbs for extended periods of time, you just don't know in advance whether you'll be or not.

Plus, with cleric gone, it really just amounts to cancelling your DPS cast when something bad happens. You're still gonna do those DPS casts all the time you're not healing, because for one, damage might not be incoming, so you want to do something useful in case it doesn't, for another, because you cannot pre-cast any random damage, therefore you also cannot expect people to do such, which means you'll always have enough time to cancel the DPS cast (which is instant) and start a heal cast instead. That idea needs cleric stance or some other lockout to function.

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Originally Posted by Aramina

No. You are not conversing. Saying tanks tank, healers heal, dps dps is *NOT* a conversation. It's an echo chamber.

Person 1: I think a tank's job should be to tank, and a healer's job should be to heal, and a dps job should be to dps.
Person 2: I agree.

That's your version of a conversation? Really?

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People needs get around and accept and simple fact

If you gonna go and be a healer make sure you heal your party as intended. If you wish to DPS , please do. If you wish not to DPS that's absolutely fine as long as your main job as a healer has fulfilled it's purpose.

This is something so simple to understand that people seemed to think that DPSing as a healer is mandatory when it's clearly NOT.

at the end of the day if you not happy about it. feel free to drop the party and find another group where the healer does what you want them to do.

MOVE ON and be HAPPY

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Originally Posted by Mature

Healer - heals
Dps - DPS
Tank - tanks

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Healer - Always Be Casting
DPS - Do tons of damage, use utility.
Tank - Keep hate, position properly, mitigate damage, do damage.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/13...ew-Translation

Read this, Yoshi P is talking as a player. He doesn't want players to feel anxious, and wants them to feel like the pressure isn't there. He fully acknowledges the importance of healer DPS, and the changes to cleric and damage have been designed around making damage more accessible. He even going as far as to say "Since things are more serious in raiding, on the other hand, you'll definitely want to DPS for the first clear. As item levels go up and you're after repeat clears, the roles may shift."

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In raids, yeah. That's what I meant by hard fights.

Maybe they should look at amending the com system. Either make it more rewarding so people (including healers) work above there grade to get coms sp more encouragement to not just heal.

Or like league give you the option to com each party memebers (obviously not premade) if you liked there preformance so if you didnt like the non dpsing healer no com if the healer dpsed there butt off an no one died com. Same for dps and tanks.
Lets make it more encoraging then damning?

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

In Yoshis Eyes the many healers wants to do damage (more easily). If not, he's not following any logic saying things like

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All this indicates is the devs are catering to the play-style of a segment of the community. A very vocal segment at that. The changes we've seen definitely counter many of the statements made as well.
Regardless, people will play how they want, regardless of the opinions of others.

I agree with what Yoshida said, it should be optional...but it is not a fault of the player base. It's this games battle system. Has little to no CC required..in fact most of our CC does not even work. When there is an add, its KILL IT ASAP NEVER sleep it, etc. All the fights are basically zerg the mob till his HP is 0 while stacking, tank swapping or stepping into something, dodging etc. There is no kiting really, no enfeebling required that will ease mechanics, like slow, paralyze, bind and as it stands now if you "mess up" and do a mechanic wrong, you usually get one shot...instead of having it so that it would require healing. Kind of boring imo.

Personally I do not mind doing damage while healing, with CS removed it will be even more easy now lol. What I do mind though is how much of a joke healing is in this game. There is no content where it really requires me to focus on some hardcore healing. Lineage II, Tera and Aion had some of the best healing jobs I have ever played, especially Tera and L2. This game doesn't even have Reraise..still lol. Kind of weird.

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Originally Posted by Mature

People needs get around and accept and simple fact

If you gonna go and be a healer make sure you heal your party as intended. If you wish to DPS , please do. If you wish not to DPS that's absolutely fine as long as your main job as a healer has fulfilled it's purpose.

This is something so simple to understand that people seemed to think that DPSing as a healer is mandatory when it's clearly NOT.

at the end of the day if you not happy about it. feel free to drop the party and find another group where the healer does what you want them to do.

MOVE ON and be HAPPY

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There will always be a segment of people who feel they can dictate how others play. While its a vocal segment of the forums, It's not one I see much of in game at least.... though that may be because I dps.

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Originally Posted by Mature

If you gonna go and be a healer make sure you heal your party as intended.

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Agree.

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Originally Posted by Mature

If you wish to DPS , please do.

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Agree.

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Originally Posted by Mature

If you wish not to DPS that's absolutely fine as long as your main job as a healer has fulfilled it's purpose.

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Agree, with the caveat that you understand that the other 3 in the party may not agree with it being absolutely fine and remove you.

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Originally Posted by Mature

This is something so simple to understand that people seemed to think that DPSing as a healer is mandatory when it's clearly NOT.

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I don't think most people think it is mandatory at all. What they think is mandatory is you being just as active as your other 3 party mates. Whether that activity is doing necessary healing or something else if there is no healing is basically the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Mature

at the end of the day if you not happy about it. feel free to drop the party and find another group where the healer does what you want them to do.

MOVE ON and be HAPPY

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Or remove them. It may not be an option you like or agree with (or one I like or agree with if I am being honest), but it is still an option.


Did we have a conversation now? ;)

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Originally Posted by Stormbad

Reading your response, I actually understand 100% where you're coming from. And yes, I understand that given your skills and abilities, you are doing your best. Also, even though I like to play optimally myself, I do enjoy chat banter and that explains a lot of the idle moments, if you were chatting.


...Now that's not to say there aren't any bad apples, there certainly are, but bad apples are all over the place and not exclusive to "raider elitists." In conclusion, I would stop the hate on raiders as a group and say what they actually are, bad players and you might get more people to see your position without them being defensive.

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That's a little too much to ask considering why this thread is 108 pages now? There's only luls in the thread growth because there is a daily post limit outside the tech forum, but posting to the tech forum uses up those limits anyway.

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Originally Posted by Charisma

If you really believe this would damage the games popularity you are dellusional, you people always forget that you do not reflect the majority

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It would probably be a little more than the 2% raider population. Raiders are more likely to have spent more money on the game on alts/retainers/etc. They're the "whales" in the context of freemium games.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

You guys understand this kind of harassment is why we don't get parsers, right? If this goes on, one day Yoshida will just gut healer dps completely so people don't attack others over it.

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The prime reason why no addons will ever be official is because they can't be brought to the PS4. That's it.

Nobody should be using any kind of unauthorized third party tool with the game, but every software developer knows that the client can never be secured. VM's and remote-desktop software has pretty much made being able to detect manipulation of the game client too much effort to dedicate development time for. Best they can hope for is ASLR and DEP in 64-bit mode and hope cheat tools don't ask for administrative access.

But hey, some people love handing complete control of their computer just to get an unfair advantage in a video game~.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

There will always be a segment of people who feel they can dictate how others play.

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Well, nobody can dictate how others play - they can however remove them from their groups.

Nobody can prevent you from clearing Savage Raids in a class instead of a job. You just might have to find a group that accepts that playstyle and randoms might not be willing to. The same goes if you would like to play a pure ice mage, a non-DPSing healer, a pure song bard or whatever else you might want your playstyle to be. You can make it your playstyle to eat as many AoEs as you can even. And that goes for all content alike.

But people might not want you in their group if that's your playstyle. And that's all there is to that debate.

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Originally Posted by Khaidal

In raids, yeah. That's what I meant by hard fights.

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Yoshida: By now, I think a feeling has developed that healers have to participate in DPSing in instanced dungeons. Even if it's just a silent pressure, it is there. Because of that feeling, there were some players who may have felt anxious about joining as a healer. For someone like me who isn't focused about clear time, I'm fine as long as we can clear it. And I'll try to take things more slowly if I see someone who might be new. However, it's been getting more and more difficult for healers, which I'm sorry about. On my personal account, I play all the roles, and I like to have the feeling that I can play through instanced dungeons on my favorite role.

Since things are more serious in raiding, on the other hand, you'll definitely want to DPS for the first clear. As item levels go up and you're after repeat clears, the roles may shift. (laughs)

F: I see.

Yoshida: That said, sometimes when I'm participating in instanced dungeons, I'll queue as tank or healer because the matchmaking is so fast, but in the case of healer, although attacking itself isn't hard, I feel that the stance switching narrows the field of players who are interested in healing. When looking at the data, even though many players have healers at the appropriate job level, they won't be participating as healer. When considering the reasons for this, it seems that there are two main ones - it's too much work, and being asked to DPS.

F: There are many who feel that way.

Yoshida: So we decided to calculate healers' attack magic potency based on MND. Since you no longer need Cleric Stance, you can Holy whenever you feel like it. After stunning the enemies with Swiftcast Holy, you can then catch up with heals. With this increased level of comfort, the number of people participating in instanced dungeons as healer will definitely go up.

F: It certainly looks like that.

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Theres the specific dungeon opinion. Cleric stance was changed to make DPS more accessible to more casual players. Ultimately Yoshi Ps goal is to get more players healing in casual content, and the way to do that is to make it easy for them. He never says that not DPSing is the correct way to play, he instead says that as a player he would never see it as a requirement, which especially resonates with how different the Japanese structure of play is to the west.

The cleric stance changes are there to get players to DPS easily, and to relieve the pressure that DPSing brings. We should remove the idea that DPSing is separate from healing now that cleric and stance based gameplay is gone and instead ask ourselves "what is the skill that is best to use next?" sometimes it will be regen, sometimes it will be stone, the last quote he uses shows that Yoshida feels the same way.

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Originally Posted by Aramina

Did we have a conversation now? ;)

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You can't have a conversation with a wall, you silly.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Well, nobody can dictate how others play - they can however remove them from their groups.

Nobody can prevent you from clearing Savage Raids in a class instead of a job. You just might have to find a group that accepts that playstyle and randoms might not be willing to. The same goes if you would like to play a pure ice mage, a non-DPSing healer, a pure song bard or whatever else you might want your playstyle to be. You can make it your playstyle to eat as many AoEs as you can even. And that goes for all content alike.

But people might not want you in their group if that's your playstyle. And that's all there is to that debate.

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I agree with what you are saying. Every time I see these threads however I find it ridiculous how people would kick other players in non-raid content for these things. Its more surprising given I just don't see this behavior it in game. In my experience this is just a forum thing that just wont die.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

You can't have a conversation with a wall, you silly.

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I needed that laugh, thank you! <3

Why is it that the anti-DPS crowd is never willing to even entertain an opposing viewpoint?

There have been so many rational explanations in this thread for why/when healer DPS is warranted and yet you still continue to keep the blinders on.

How can you argue that someone who throws out DPS as a healer - even if it is a small amount - isn't contributing more to the group than a heals-only healer?

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Originally Posted by Aramina

I needed that laugh, thank you! <3

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I'm guessing both sides of the conversation feel the same way. Its a pointless discussion to have at this point.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

In my experience this is just a forum thing that just wont die.

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The two are actually connected - Many people will frustratedly stay silent ingame in cases like this, but vent those frustrations on the forums, linkshells, discord or FC chat instead, because you gotta vent somehow. The more pent up frustrations, the louder the debate.

I know I do. If I get bad players, I'm bitchin' and moanin' for days, but none of that ends up in party chat. I just silently hate them and then go to the forums to make angry posts.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

I'm guessing both sides of the conversation feel the same way. Its a pointless discussion to have at this point.

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It's someting to do until Stormblood! Let's see if we can make it 200 pages! (I am kidding don't hit me).

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Originally Posted by Aramina

It's someting to do until Stormblood! Let's see if we can make it 200 pages! (I am kidding don't hit me).

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That's why I'm here at least... I want to play FF14 but have nothing to do in game