Are role actions a nerf?

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

If you're bringing esuna to every fight that needs it and not bringing it to fights that don't, you're not really the one making the choice, the battle designer is. There's no benefit to having esuna in a fight where there's nothing to cleanse so it doesn't make sense putting it in a list of optional skills, it would never be the rightchoice for those fights. They're only setting people up to fail and bring esuna when they don't need it or forget esuna when they do need it. The only "positive" is entirely manufactured by this new system, that you get to bring a different skill. But if this system didn't exist and you just got esuna the way you do now you would still gain the benefit of also being able to bring other skills. Even on the subject of "button bloat", if you want to swap things in and out of your hotbars as needed you can already do that. You can already take esuna off your hotbar and put something else there if you don't need it. The whole role abilities system provides zero actual benefits, only imaginary benefits to people desperate for some kind of pretend choice.

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Someone gets it, as of what we know now, the role class system is bad, but they did say it was not the final version and subject to change. As said before I am sure they wanted to get some thoughts from us with the system before finalizing it. It is amusing to me see people auguring something that is a baseline ability for healers tell me it really is an "option" if that is the case, so is fire IV, why have fire IV when there are people that never use it?

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

If we're speaking on a technicality level, the only debuff that absolutely 100% needs to be cleansed by the healers, that would be doom. Every other debuff either had alternative ways of being cleansed (Keepers Paean, antidotes, spine drops, etc) or can be worked through at a minimal dps loss (Poison, Paralysis on non casters, sleep, etc). I'm pretty guilty of ignoring every debuff that isn't doom because "MUH DEEPS".

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Again I guess we can make fire IV an option since "meh deeps" is not important. lets make cure an option, maybe make DPS spells or healing spells options and not allow people do both at the same time. Lets make it so people maxing would have to swich out spells every 20 seconds to get the maximum performance.

This sounds really off right? so does making protect, esuna, provoke not baseline.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

, so is fire IV, why have fire IV when there are people that never use it?

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Fire 4 is optional in the sense that if you don't want to do high DPS, you'd never use it. Esuna doesn't have that same argument, especially in end game raids where dispellable debuffs are few and far between. Many are the times when I wished I could swap Esuna for something infinitely more useful. As of now, a rough estimate places maybe 10% of the debuffs currently in game people can remove, and of that small number, 1-2% of them are mandatory, while the remaining number won't have any appreciable impact on your dungeon run.

On another note, it's kinda funny to me to see people are defending a skill that's almost as niche as PLD's Tempered Will.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

, so is fire IV, why have fire IV when there are people that never use it?

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Can you really not tell the difference between "optional only if you want to be bad" and "optional ANY time there isn't a critical debuff"? Well I guess you can't since you keep comparing them.

edit: If cure were a cross-role skill then THAT would be the same. But Esuna? No.

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Originally Posted by Aramina

Can you really not tell the difference between "optional only if you want to be bad" and "optional ANY time there isn't a critical debuff"? Well I guess you can't since you keep comparing them.

edit: If cure were a cross-role skill then THAT would be the same. But Esuna? No.

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Not esuna debuffs is bad, not having esuna baseline is bad. I do not see how someone can ague otherwise. All it is going to do is cause worse DF social problems then we have currently, same with protect. I entered a level 17 guildhest above all things telling me healers need protect. (everyone with a brain knows first slot goes to cleric)

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Fire 4 is optional in the sense that if you don't want to do high DPS, you'd never use it. Esuna doesn't have that same argument, especially in end game raids where dispellable debuffs are few and far between. Many are the times when I wished I could swap Esuna for something infinitely more useful. As of now, a rough estimate places maybe 10% of the debuffs currently in game people can remove, and of that small number, 1-2% of them are mandatory, while the remaining number won't have any appreciable impact on your dungeon run.

On another note, it's kinda funny to me to see people are defending a skill that's almost as niche as PLD's Tempered Will.

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You can clear dungeons just spamming wide volley, does that make it s a good idea? defending bad ideas is mind bogging to me

Most dungeons esuna can be used to cleanse usually avoidable debuffs

Most trials, you don't need esuna.

Most 8 man raids, you don't need esuna.

Most 24 man raids, you don't need esuna

This should give you a general idea what places Esuna is applicable. Usually Esunable debuffs are avoidable

Also, with 4.0, you can see what debuffs can be Esunable now, instead of it being a guessing game.
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There are only a few instances in which Esuna is required, those are generally for insta kill debuffs such as A3s and Doom.

Esuna is generally a dead skill.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

Not esuna debuffs is bad, not having esuna baseline is bad. I do not see how someone can ague otherwise. All it is going to do is cause worse DF social problems then we have currently, same with protect. I entered a level 17 guildhest above all things telling me healers need protect. (everyone with a brain knows first slot goes to cleric)



You can clear dungeons just spamming wide volley, does that make it s a good idea? defending bad ideas is mind bogging to me

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Ok you are right. Everything sucks. We are all going to die a horrible death.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

Someone gets it, as of what we know now, the role class system is bad, but they did say it was not the final version and subject to change. As said before I am sure they wanted to get some thoughts from us with the system before finalizing it. It is amusing to me see people auguring something that is a baseline ability for healers tell me it really is an "option" if that is the case, so is fire IV, why have fire IV when there are people that never use it?
Again I guess we can make fire IV an option since "meh deeps" is not important. lets make cure an option, maybe make DPS spells or healing spells options and not allow people do both at the same time. Lets make it so people maxing would have to swich out spells every 20 seconds to get the maximum performance.

This sounds really off right? so does making protect, esuna, provoke not baseline.

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I guess you need clarification of situationally optional. If you use Esuna on a team member without a debuff, it does nothing. If you use Provoke on an opponent that is attacking you (edit: had the esuna msg here for some reason, derp), it does nothing. If your team doesn't take enough damage to have the damage mitigation of protect keep you from dying, then it does nothing.

If you use Fire IV on an opponent, it does something.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

defending bad ideas is mind bogging to me

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So then why are you trying to defend the assertion that Esuna is a mandatory skill when for a very significant majority of the game it adds very little, nor does it refute the assertion that it's entirely extra depending on party make up. Got a bard? He can cleanse anything Esuna can and faster with Keeper's Paean. Inflicted with poison? Spend a gcd to apply a Regen, go back to dpsing, or the afflicted player uses an antidote. Both cases are resolved with no need for the healer to do anything other than dps. Do you have a counter for the use of medicines/keeper's?

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Originally Posted by Kaisinel

Most dungeons esuna can be used to cleanse usually avoidable debuffs

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Exactly and you do not see that increasing social problems in DFs?
*DPS complains about needing esuna*
*Healer complains you should of dodged*
*party kicks the healer because it is always the healer's fault when things go wrong*

illusion of choice of important BASELINE skills is a bad idea.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

So then why are you trying to defend the assertion that Esuna is a mandatory skill when for a very significant majority of the game it adds very little, nor does it refute the assertion that it's entirely extra depending on party make up. Got a bard? He can cleanse anything Esuna can and faster with Keeper's Paean. Inflicted with poison? Spend a gcd to apply a Regen, go back to dpsing, or the afflicted player uses an antidote. Both cases are resolved with no need for the healer to do anything other than dps. Do you have a counter for the use of medicines/keeper's?

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because this is not true? Also a level 58 ability replacing a 18 ability thinking it is a replacement for the majority of the content of the game when the game does not let you use it, ok. I guess you are magically 60 these days, well I guess SB will allow that so maybe I will soon be wrong.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

because this is not true?

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Factually incorrect. Bard's have a skill called Keepers paean that's an esuna/status shield, antidotes, spine drops, and other status negating items are already in the game as well, so you may want to rethink that.