I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

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Originally Posted by Eastwall

That's an interesting video, but this is not my job. I shouldn't be required to get better to enjoy the game.

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https://i.ibb.co/0ZWSdPw/tenor.gif

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Originally Posted by Eastwall

That's an interesting video, but this is not my job. I shouldn't be required to get better to enjoy the game.

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I shouldn’t be required to suck at my job to enjoy the game.

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Originally Posted by Eastwall

That's an interesting video, but this is not my job. I shouldn't be required to get better to enjoy the game.

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I think you missed the point of the video? No one said you have to be required to get better to enjoy the game (casual content doesn't demand perfection or excellence), but everyone is saying they don't want to be bad at the game to be able to enjoy the experience.

The video is showing that even with disabilities, players can excel & reach the game's ceiling when it was much more complex back in the day. It's not saying you have to perform at the level. Even people in the comments who don't get anywhere near as good as the video poster are still playing the game fine, and they aren't required to get better to enjoy it. However, the comments do note that they are more motivated when people who are suffering more disabilities can still play better than them. That should tell you that people don't get anywhere near as good as the poster, but there's no reason for a job (or role for that matter) to have the skill ceiling set to the skill floor of the job for those who want to achieve it.

Looking through your ideas, Roe, it looks like a lot of thought has been placed into improving AST. The NIN problem with haste is fixed by making the effect grant much faster auto attacks instead. The Bole is fixed by adding max HP based counter damage. The Ewer is fixed by granting multi-strike to the healers. The Spire's TP generation is fixed by granting magic damage instead equal to the Balance. The Spear's unpredictable cooldown reductions is fixed by granting physical damage instead equal to the Balance. I can definitely see a case where the Ewer could help out the RDM if they have been busy rezzing the party even if they don't get the multi-strike.

I can understand keeping it single target buffs since Royal Road had to cut the potency in half at the very least to balance with the AoE spread. A quarter might have been thought to be needed, but it was still intended to make the effect stronger and balance with extended timers and increased potencies. If the old system was in today's climate, a double Balance or a royal roaded Bole (increased potency) with Balance would be the best usually. I did use AoE Balance in the past, although that kind of shows how bad "The Spire's" base effect for TP generation was to be immediately Royal Roaded.

The new target radius idea for the controller players looks great too. It will be something my Savage player friend could try since he is a PC player using a controller. I almost never saw him use AST as a result.

The minor Arcana cards using GCDs will definitely help to reduce the Malefic spam casts. Were there any thoughts if we should add one more thing? WHM already took on the 15s Water / Banish cooldown idea you had, so we might have to avoid that one. Hate to say it, but the GNB cooldown combo idea might fit here to add with the Malefic filler casts. Maybe give it names similar to the Stella spell we lost. It doesn't have to have the oGCD combo with it. Just the GCD cooldown combo.

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Originally Posted by Tigore

Looking through your ideas, Roe, it looks like a lot of thought has been placed into improving AST. The NIN problem with haste is fixed by making the effect grant much faster auto attacks instead. The Bole is fixed by adding max HP based counter damage. The Ewer is fixed by granting multi-strike to the healers. The Spire's TP generation is fixed by granting magic damage instead equal to the Balance. The Spear's unpredictable cooldown reductions is fixed by granting physical damage instead equal to the Balance. I can definitely see a case where the Ewer could help out the RDM if they have been busy rezzing the party even if they don't get the multi-strike.

I can understand keeping it single target buffs since Royal Road had to cut the potency in half at the very least to balance with the AoE spread. A quarter might have been thought to be needed, but it was still intended to make the effect stronger and balance with extended timers and increased potencies. If the old system was in today's climate, a double Balance or a royal roaded Bole (increased potency) with Balance would be the best usually. I did use AoE Balance in the past, although that kind of shows how bad "The Spire's" base effect for TP generation was to be immediately Royal Roaded.

The new target radius idea for the controller players looks great too. It will be something my Savage player friend could try since he is a PC player using a controller. I almost never saw him use AST as a result.

The minor Arcana cards using GCDs will definitely help to reduce the Malefic spam casts. Were there any thoughts if we should add one more thing? WHM alrady took on the 15s Water / Banish cooldown idea you had, so we might have to avoid that one. Hate to say it, but the GNB cooldown combo idea might fit here to add with the Malefic filler casts. Maybe give it names similar to the Stella spell we lost. It doesn't have to have the oGCD combo with it. Just the GCD cooldown combo.

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- Thanks. As an aside, it wasn't mentioned in the original post, but with this idea, you could throw Ewer on a WHM in any 8man 'casual content' (eg Normal Raid, Alliance Raid, etc), and see a 'multistrike' Misery. I was considering making this 'not possible' for balance, but then I thought 'well, we can't run WHM AST in content where balance actually matters (eg Savage) anyway, so if people want to do it let's just let them, it'd be funny'. I could balance it with some kind of 'stack system' so that you can get, say, 5 casts of filler (Glare/Broil etc), 2 Phlegmas and one filler cast (cos they're twice as strong as the filler), or one Misery, but that's more maths, and it'd make the tooltip super long to read (not like AST is a stranger to long tooltips, Astrodyne reads like a YuGiOh card effect)

- Exactly my thinking with the idea. AOE Balance was just so far ahead of any other result that it was just not possible to make anything else compete. You could have Bole be literally Tank LB2 level strong (50% and AOE) and people would still pass it up for Balance, because 'more damage is always useful', and 'mitigation you can't predict having at the right time is not reliable'. Keep the cards single target, and you can much more easily tune their numbers against one another. The 'big 2min burst window' feel can remain on Divination.

- Thanks again, I would also like to have the idea on PC even with me being a KBM user, because clicking someone's name, then playing the card, then trying to tab target back to Pallas Athena and failing because her model is so damn big (causing GCD clipping) is annoying to me. As mentioned in the post, the fact that it can be expanded to be used on non-card (and even non-healer skills) would be massive for QOL. How many times have we heard about DRGs hating how they have to target an ally with DragonSight, or rely on a clunky macro that sometimes doesn't fire properly and DS's only the DRG? Something like this would help even them. BRD's Esuna thingy is another that comes to mind today, but didn't at the time. I don't play on controller, so I'm not 100% sure on if 'Right Stick' would be better to use than 'Left Stick', but I hope the general gist is conveyed, rather than 'it has to be this exact configuration'

- This last point is an interesting one. And I wrote a lot because of it, so I'll put it in a dropdown box

I do recognise that my WHM and AST ideas both include a '15s GCD' to try and reduce how much filler is spammed, so I get where you're coming from in them maybe feeling samey. However, I'd like to believe that they'd feel at least somewhat different, because one is a direct attack, and one is 'place a buff on an ally', which creates different levels of 'execution' for lack of a better term. With WHM's Banish, you'd hit it on CD, or save it for mobility if you want to (at the cost of about 7 potency per GCD you hold onto it for). With AST, however, you'd be constantly considering who to place the card on, as well as 'can you hold it for mobility' (because you can hold up to two), and if you DID hold two (to blow both at the raidbuff window/the 1min miniburst for something like a NIN/MNK comp), which order the two cards are going to play in, whether either need to be redrawn, whether to use Sleeve Draw to empower them to a Lady (if they're a low facevalue like a 2, 3 or 4), all sorts of extra factors that aren't a consideration with WHM's more simple 'press button, do damage (and get some gauge)'.

For 'additional thing', I did have two ideas, and I didn't copypaste this part into the post from my notes because I thought it'd feel like 'too much all at once', but here we are. So Idea 1 is that this change to Minor Arcana would potentially cause so much 'extra brain space' required to process all the effects, who to put them on, when to pool cards vs play them etc, that Combust might have to be removed. It isn't much of a button as it stands, IMO, and if it meant getting such a technical Card system, I would not miss it one bit. It's a bland button, with a bland effect. If it had some tie-in to Time Magic, ie being able to extend it's duration, instantly detonate the remaining duration for a burst of damage, etc, then I'd say it's cool, but it's not cool. It's boring. And that kind of system would be too complex to be justifiably placed on the same class as the cards, should they get made more interesting. Essentially, I'm making the choice that 'If AST could have interesting cards, or interesting Time Magic stuff, which should it get', I'm taking the cards. They are the thing that sets AST apart from other jobs in lore and aesthetic, so they should be the focus IMO.

Idea 2 is pretty simple, but would be quite interesting potentially. If the idea was made manifest exactly as I wrote above, and Minor Arcana uses the 6 suits that Major does, then it stands to reason that Minor Arcana could also generate Seals, no? Then the 'one more thing' for AST is a minigame of 'aim for 100% uptime on ASTrodyne's self-damage and self-speed buff'. You would be able to generate 3 seals every 30s (one Major, two Minor). For this, I'd make Astrodyne give one buff, with varying effects, rather than the current 'three buffs with one effect each' (for buff cap reasons). I don't know why they did it the way they did, and not like... for example:

Grants an effect using the astrosigns read from your divining deck.
Can only be executed after reading three astrosigns.
Effect granted is determined by the number of different types of astrosigns read.
1 Sign Type: Grants Harmony of Spirit
2 Sign Types: Grants Harmony of Body
3 Sign Types: Grants Harmony of Mind
Duration: 30s
Harmony of Spirit Effect: Gradually restores own MP with a potency of 50
Harmony of Body Effect: Gradually restores own MP with a potency of 50. Additionally, reduces spell cast time and recast time by 10%
Harmony of Mind Effect: Gradually restores own MP with a potency of 50. Additionally, reduces spell cast time and recast time by 10%. Additionally, increases damage dealt and healing potency by 5%

Obviously, if the intention is to aim for 100% uptime on these buffs, their strength will have to be changed. We can't be having permanent 50 potency Refresh, that's like having Lucid active constantly

Playing a game of 'try to aim for maximum Astrodyne uptime', along with all these new card effects? Now that's a high skill ceiling (and also definitely a good reason to axe Combust). Also, I'm not sure if it's possible, but there'd potentially be an interesting gameplay interaction where Minor Arcana's 15s recharge time is reduced by Astrodyne's Spellspeed buff, allowing you to get more Minor Arcana cards faster, leading to more seals, leading to even higher Astrodyne uptime. Perhaps there'd be a BIS build where that buff, plus the exact right amount of SPS on gear, would result in that 15s charge time dropping to 12.5s, changing Minor Arcana from 'every 6th GCD' to 'every 5th GCD'. And maybe that extra potency from having more cards, outweighs the potency gained by Crit, since AST's damage potencies are so low and Crit's effect is not as impactful with lower potency numbers...? I think it'd be quite interesting for a SPS/Piety build to be competitive with the usual Crit/DHit meta we usually face

Again ty for reading, nothing makes idea-makers like me (and others who make idea) happy quite like being told 'hey that's pretty good actually'.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

https://i.ibb.co/0ZWSdPw/tenor.gif

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That's the funniest response l fished out, lol

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Originally Posted by Eastwall

That's the funniest response l fished out, lol

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To be transparent in regards to my response, it wasn't directly a counter to what you were saying. I also believe you shouldn't need to master your job in order to enjoy the game, which is how the entire game currently operates and has always operated, even hard content. You do not need to parse pink or orange to beat savage. I've raiding with people who were learning new jobs for the first time just to try something new, and we still won. Someone in my savage raid group swapped from Black Mage to Ninja for the fun of it despite having very little experience with Ninja. Which is exactly why it makes no sense to me why job design continues to be childproofed over and over again when it's simply not necessary. It doesn't make it easier for the common player to clear content, it just takes away the fun from the people who want to develop their skills and master their job beyond what the game asks you to do. And I don't think you were challenging that logic specifically, just that your choice of words immediately made me think of the opposite--how the game wants me to be a bad healer in order for me to enjoy healing. The better I get, the worse my gameplay feels.

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Originally Posted by Eastwall

That's the funniest response l fished out, lol

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Tss tss. Troll are meant to stay ambiguous, don't admit your trolling mister.

I do agree that the altered Astrodyne idea would be better as an additional mechanic to manage with the cards compared to a detonating Combust DoT, Roe. The combusting DoT idea could even be carried over to SCH actually. Although it would probably be in the form of asking if SMN gives up Fester / Painflare to SCH and gets a new mechanic to fit with their new model better. Although that's another thread to discuss if the SMNs are happy or not. The additional idea to make Astrodyne scale with Spell Speed does sound interesting too. We kind of do have too much reliance on Critical Strike and Direct Hit being the king stats most of the time for every role. Also, is Astrodyne still remaining an oGCD or will it be a GCD? You may have a point that memorizing 12 card patterns may be enough justification to keep Astrodyne an oGCD with slightly more Malefic spam and Combust removed.

I also hear ya for DRG with the Dragon Sight targeting. I have tried it a few times in PuGs and the map parties. Sometimes I unintentionally delay the cooldown slightly because I use the mouse click on the party list to target the player. It hasn't been enough to cause more "elusive deaths" on me, but there are quite a few jumps and mirage dives to do at the start with Battle Litany.

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Originally Posted by Tigore

Also, is Astrodyne still remaining an oGCD or will it be a GCD? You may have a point that memorizing 12 card patterns may be enough justification to keep Astrodyne an oGCD with slightly more Malefic spam and Combust removed.

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I'd imagine that the 'ideal role' would be displayed on the gauge, like how the border is coloured in the current game to show if a card is melee or ranged, and the seal appears above the card to show which seal it generates. So a small icon on each side to indicate, eg a shield for Bole saying 'this is best on a tank', or a staff on Spire to show 'this is for caster', etc, and the same for the Minor cards, would help to show the role/card link and help speed up the 'learning process' somewhat. But for your question of OGCD vs GCD, I think it'd be best to either have it as an OGCD, or even to swap it to a trait effect of sorts, where it automatically grants the buff upon generating the third seal. Definitely not a GCD though, it'd slow the gameplay down too much, and it runs the issue WOW ran into for a while, where it just doesn't feel good to use a GCD on a timed buff, then have to wait the GCD recast time while that buff is ticking down, unable to make use of it. For the sake of player agency, in cases where you can't get 100% uptime, the versatility of being able to choose when to activate the buff would mean that OGCD is probably the better choice. Plus it means preserving more of the APM AST is known for

At this point, I'd use 'detonating DOT' as the basis for a new job, and do it properly, instead of hamfisting it back onto AST or another current Job. Dropdown to save space again:

I mulled over an idea of a Time Mage DPS, where you'd juggle two gauges, tentatively named Matter and Antimatter, which would have interactions between two spell sets (similar to RDM), one being DOT related (collapse, extend, etc) and the other being based around long recast timers that are reduced by using other skills (eg a 1min CD, who's CD is reduced by 2s if you cast another Antimatter skill).

Successfully juggling the two gauges, and keeping them relatively balanced, would build a 'Singularity', which can be spent akin to the RDM Melee Combo to deal massive damage, scaling based on the two gauge amounts spent. The idea would be, instead of RDM where you can pool up your resources for burst window, you'd want to purposely spend a lower amount of gauge on a smaller Singularity (eg 40/40) at an earlier point in the fight, so that you have the moment you hit 100/100 line up with the burst window correctly (I think MCH can do this with it's robot, so that's the inspiration).

I was very inspired in thematics/VFX by the 'Umbral/Astral Tilt' from P12S, the pure black/white VFX when towers are failed, when they are taken correctly, and the lasers from the adds on the sides so a similar theme would work well for such a job I believe, White with Black for Matter skills, Black with White for Antimatter. Also, there's loads of cool names from Astronomy to use for CDs and skill names. Syzygy, Equinox, SolarFlare, Eclipse, Retrograde, etc.

Eukrasian Toxikon, Dyskrasia, and Phlegma should absolutely be a thing for SGE, but I don't know what their effects would be though.

DPS is secondary, and you do so when you don't have to heal?

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Eukrasian Toxikon, Dyskrasia, and Phlegma should absolutely be a thing for SGE, but I don't know what their effects would be though.

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How about we combine those with the 'more interesting kardia effects' idea floating around?

give Eukrasian Toxikon a Regen effect instead of the normal flat heal.

E. Dyskrasia could do an AoE heal centered on the kardia target.

E. Phlegma could give a Shield to the Kardia target instead of a heal.

Give all of them bigger than normal MP cost to offset the extra healing these effects would provide.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

DPS is secondary, and you do so when you dpn't have to heal?

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Indeed. We press 1 button about as much as any tanks does their auto attacks.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

DPS is secondary, and you do so when you don't have to heal?

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Which is most of the time unfortunately =/

I would honestly say that in current healer design, healing is secondary to doing damage at this point.

At 60-80% of your total casts, your damage buttons see far more use than your healing buttons, even in supposedly harder content.

in another thread someone was saying how useless cure 1 is and imo cure 2 also, my quick take for that which is relevant here as well was that they can remove cure 1 and 2 and put 1 or 2 more dps spells and spice up the rotations and playstyles. they can instead have one of the later healing spells available early to compensate or if you will add only one new dps spell, make cure 1 upgrade to 2 and later to the instant lily heal. the same can be applied to the aoe heals and similarly to the other healers with their own versions of cure 1,2 etc. i think this isn't a proper solution, that would be a complete rework of all jobs quite frankly but at least with this suggestion you can get an easy and fast fix.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

DPS is secondary, and you do so when you don't have to heal?

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DPS is not secondary:

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

https://i.imgur.com/tVNtVaC.png

https://i.imgur.com/V6vK1rj.png

https://i.imgur.com/EyWXbQx.png

https://i.imgur.com/uR1NHur.png

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Originally Posted by Mithron

DPS is not secondary:

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I guess the problem the devs are having is that some people use 'secondary' to refer to 'where in our list of priorities damage is', that is, 'we keep the party alive first and foremost, and only then do we consider damage', whereas others use it to refer to how often one or the other is used as part of our gameplay, and so it seems that there's not a consensus, due to the misunderstanding

At that point it's just arguing semantics which get neither of us or them anywhere with that.

Honestly, both Scholar and Astro need help beyond just more dps buttons. Went back to playing scholar after two years and realized very quickly how unintuitive the aetherflow mechanics are. You basically need aetherflow to access a good chunk of their abilities and the stacks are stuck on a button that also serves to restore MP, and another button that kills your healing actions from the pet for 20% bonus healing. Mechanically they need to be able to gain aetherflow from doing standard abilities. Some of the combo skills the scholar has are already a bit of a learning curve like emergency tactics and deployment tactics.

The problem they got is over complicating the healing kits. The DPS side is basically the same as what we have in PvP.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

The problem they got is over complicating the healing kits. The DPS side is basically the same as what we have in PvP.

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Remove the dash from Seraph Strike and you have almost move for move the ability cadence of SB WHM. The 20s Seraph Strike mirrors the 24s duration Aero 3 (sort of), and the 15s Misery mirrors the 18s Aero 2 duration (sort of)

SGE applying shields by using it's damage skills, and being able to counterattack with Toxikon as an OGCD when the shield is broken makes it way faster paced for PVP too. Not sure SCH would work so well though, since it's PVP kit is so focused around spreading the debilitation of the DOT with a pseudo-Bane, which wouldn't be much help in singletarget content

Still, pretty impressive that they have 'an answer' of sorts (use the PVP damage rotations in PVE too) right in front of them and they still can't see it

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Remove the dash from Seraph Strike and you have almost move for move the ability cadence of SB WHM. The 20s Seraph Strike mirrors the 24s duration Aero 3 (sort of), and the 15s Misery mirrors the 18s Aero 2 duration (sort of)

SGE applying shields by using it's damage skills, and being able to counterattack with Toxikon as an OGCD when the shield is broken makes it way faster paced for PVP too. Not sure SCH would work so well though, since it's PVP kit is so focused around spreading the debilitation of the DOT with a pseudo-Bane, which wouldn't be much help in singletarget content

Still, pretty impressive that they have 'an answer' of sorts (use the PVP damage rotations in PVE too) right in front of them and they still can't see it

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The pvp team has more freedom in what they can do with the jobs skills than the people who are doing the PvE content. Well, that and Scholar is another healer that suffers from the change in direction on what healers are supposed to do. Originally it was something like Scholar = shield healer, WHM = pure healer, and then Astro was this funny guy that could do both depending on draws. When they swapped things to pure shield and heal the kits got a bit weird. To put it bluntly I'm not a big fan of how much of a pain in the rear they made getting shields on people with scholar. I'd much rather prefer them to have dedicated healing spells and then dedicated shielding spells, and have skills that boost shields. Because right now they have this weird heal that requires time to cast, which then has to be comboed with two other skills to create a strong shield across the entire party.

There is nothing inherently wrong with Emergency Tactics, either. If the shielding was simpler then Emergency Tactics would have a use, but the way scholar has to wield the current skills it just isn't worth it because the skills that shield also provide healing. I'd rather have them do something like create a shield for 1/4 of a persons health using a skill and then combo Emergency tactics to turn it into a heal, then to have to use Adlo + Recitation to crit heal and apply a mega shield that likely isn't needed at that point unless you've planned out a mega shield for a strong AOE and are using Deployment Tactics on top of it. (Also, Adlo + Recitation + Deployment Tactics puts my warrior triple buff shield timing skills to the test...)

Like the core of a shield healer should be dedicated heal + dedicated shield + skills unique to the Job that give it flavor. The Pure Healers should be more like "Temp HP" healers that buff the base HP of the character temporarily and then heal them that amount so they can take bigger hits. Both fill the same role, but they do it different ways.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

The pvp team has more freedom in what they can do with the jobs skills than the people who are doing the PvE content.

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PVP Sage is a thousand times more fun than PVE Sage, and nearly all of its kit would function perfectly fine in PVE.

Shorter cooldowns in Eurkrasian Dosis III and Phelgma III? Amazing! OGCD Toxikon with the Toxikon II upgrade when your Eukrasian Dosis III barrier breaks? It would likely break all the time in PVE with no concern about timing or anything, but nothing about it is mechanically broken or unfit for PVE, and I would gladly take that over the steeping pile of stormblood lily feces that Addersting is currently.

What doesn't work? Well Pneuma being a DPS laser is fantastic, but attaching Panhaima to it on cast means that, like Assize, the Panhaima's usefulness is largely dependent on whether or not you needed those barriers whenever Pneuma came off cooldown. But if you simply make it so that Pneuma casts enable a free cast of Panhaima, thus giving you the control to cast it as you need it, that would resolve that issue completely. Mesotes is the only thing that straight up doesn't work, but it's also the PVP limit break. I don't feel like PVE Sage needs that or anything like it, so remove Mesotes and update everything eise with PVP Sage (including the cooldowns for E. Dosis III, Phlegma III, and Pneuma), with the small consideration for how Pneuma works, and adjust the potencies accordingly for PVE, and we have a Sage that is 20 times better than the dogshit we have now.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

PVP Sage is a thousand times more fun than PVE Sage, and nearly all of its kit would function perfectly fine in PVE.

Shorter cooldowns in Eurkrasian Dosis III and Phelgma III? Amazing! OGCD Toxikon with the Toxikon II upgrade when your Eukrasian Dosis III barrier breaks? It would likely break all the time in PVE with no concern about timing or anything, but nothing about it is mechanically broken or unfit for PVE, and I would gladly take that over the steeping pile of stormblood lily feces that Addersting is currently.

What doesn't work? Well Pneuma being a DPS laser is fantastic, but attaching Panhaima to it on cast means that, like Assize, the Panhaima's usefulness is largely dependent on whether or not you needed those barriers whenever Pneuma came off cooldown. But if you simply make it so that Pneuma casts enable a free cast of Panhaima, thus giving you the control to cast it as you need it, that would resolve that issue completely. Mesotes is the only thing that straight up doesn't work, but it's also the PVP limit break. I don't feel like PVE Sage needs that or anything like it, so remove Mesotes and update everything eise with PVP Sage (including the cooldowns for E. Dosis III, Phlegma III, and Pneuma), with the small consideration for how Pneuma works, and adjust the potencies accordingly for PVE, and we have a Sage that is 20 times better than the dogshit we have now.

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It's probably a good question that hopefully finds its way to the developers. My own thought is the want people to feel like they are growing with the character as they go through the story, so trying to break the system down into what we got in PvP would underplay the feeling of growth. However, the idea of "growth" is why a lot of jobs need to get constantly pruned of abilities because the general method each expansion of showing growth is to throw some new skill on the hot bar and upgrade the visuals on older ones.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

It's probably a good question that hopefully finds its way to the developers. My own thought is the want people to feel like they are growing with the character as they go through the story, so trying to break the system down into what we got in PvP would underplay the feeling of growth. However, the idea of "growth" is why a lot of jobs need to get constantly pruned of abilities because the general method each expansion of showing growth is to throw some new skill on the hot bar and upgrade the visuals on older ones.

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Oh I wasn't suggesting reducing the entirety of PVE into PVP, but using what PVP has and changing what tools align with the PVE kit into their PVP iterations. I still don't like how Aethergall is just a reskin of Scholar's resources, and how it utterly dominates Sage's healing priority system... you know, the thing that offers niether barriers nor healing through DPS mechanics? The very bland, generalized OGCD pure heals, regens, and mitigation? I would so much rather Kardia be the centerpiece of Sage's healing style, but just drastically increasing the frequency of DPS actions to that of PVP Sage, making Pneuma a DPS tool and not a glorified, DPS neutral Cure III, and tossing the current Addersting system into the trash can where it belongs, then setting said trash can of fire and blasting it into space in favor of the PVP Addersting... All that while changing nothing else would do wonders for the job.

On the topic of stealing things from pvp, But I think they need to buff/rework Deployment Tactics for SCH. Like practically remove its cooldown, and let it affect a wider array of buffs, and debuffs that are applied by SCH. Like you could be able to use it to spread your dots or Chain Stratagem to multiple targets, or use it to give your whole party Excogitation. As for additional DPS buttons, giving a new debuff or perhaps reworking Chain to be like Wildfire could be fun. I've seen a lot of calls for wanting a second dot, but what if instead of a dot you could summon Statice, and she just causes trouble for the boss.

I think people tend to ask for 2nd DoT since it's quite possibly one of the easiest thing for SE to do. The file's literally still in the game. The assets are there. And they used to have those too, up to 4 (or 5 if you count crossed Aero I) DoTs in fact.

When I did the Mogtome event today, I did Satasha (Hard) and I had more fun healing that than I did than all of the current Expert dungeons. I actually had to heal, and heal quite often where in the current dungeons, the Warrior heals the group and I just spam Holy / Glare.

Why is it that other jobs get more healing than healers? /faceplam

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

When I did the Mogtome event today, I did Satasha (Hard) and I had more fun healing that than I did than all of the current Expert dungeons. I actually had to heal, and heal quite often where in the current dungeons, the Warrior heals the group and I just spam Holy / Glare.

Why is it that other jobs get more healing than healers? /faceplam

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Yep. You also had much fewer OGCD heals. No Tetra. No Asylum. No Assize. Imagine if they were all OGCD damage abilities instead.

Just bring this thread as an idea as it shows that the JP side has kind of some of the same hypocrisy that we have over here https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...feedback-is...

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

Just bring this thread as an idea as it shows that the JP side has kind of some of the same hypocrisy that we have over here https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...feedback-is...

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I don’t get why so many people see it as either the absolute minimum or the absolute maximum. There’s no in between. Either you’re a 1 nuke, 1 DOT healer, or you’re a high octane max optimization ninja triple weaving DPS. There is no nuance. There’s no middle ground, or not even middle ground but just down the block—a casual stroll upstream from the stagnant disease-infested puddle that is healer DPS gameplay. Everything or nothing.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I don’t get why so many people see it as either the absolute minimum or the absolute maximum. There’s no in between. Either you’re a 1 nuke, 1 DOT healer, or you’re a high octane max optimization ninja triple weaving DPS. There is no nuance. There’s no middle ground, or not even middle ground but just down the block—a casual stroll upstream from the stagnant disease-infested puddle that is healer DPS gameplay. Everything or nothing.

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The problem of people seeing something as having 2 states is a problem that affects more than just the healer kit. Like the people who only see contributions as either "you are playing optimally and you clear the fight" or "you are playing suboptimally and you wipe and it's all your fault and your fault alone". Many people on the forums do like to take their argument to an extreme and refuse to see a middle ground, like if you look at discussion about the melee DPS jobs, people usually sit on the "delete all positionals" camp or the "restore all positionals" camp, when there could also be an answer in the middle, like let MNK have all the positionals and let RPR have none.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

The problem of people seeing something as having 2 states is a problem that affects more than just the healer kit. Like the people who only see contributions as either "you are playing optimally and you clear the fight" or "you are playing suboptimally and you wipe and it's all your fault and your fault alone". Many people on the forums do like to take their argument to an extreme and refuse to see a middle ground, like if you look at discussion about the melee DPS jobs, people usually sit on the "delete all positionals" camp or the "restore all positionals" camp, when there could also be an answer in the middle, like let MNK have all the positionals and let RPR have none.

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It truly is baffling how in a game where you can change jobs at the drop of a hat, that there is such an unrelenting crusade against any semblance of individuality in job design. There are players who like positional heavy gameplay. Why can’t Monk be that job specifically for those players? And I agree, Reaper, or Viper, very well could be the job that has no positionals at all. Ideally, you’d want the No positionals job to be available early on for players rather than being unavailable till level 70/80, but that’s more my gripe with how job levels are handled for new jobs.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

It truly is baffling how in a game where you can change jobs at the drop of a hat, that there is such this unrelenting crusade against any semblance of individuality in job design. There are players who like positional heavy gameplay. Why can’t Monk be that job specifically for those players? And I agree, Reaper, or Viper, very well could be the job that has no positionals at all. Ideally, you’d want the No positionals job to be available early on for players rather than being unavailable till level 70/80, but that’s more my gripe with how job levels are handled for new jobs.

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Because the dev team themselves seem to adhere to the same philosophy: accessibility to its absolute extreme. We saw this as early as Stormblood when HW Dark Knight was completely overhauled because some people cried it was too difficult to play but they didn't want to play Warrior or Paladin since "Dark Knight's way cooler!!!" Shadowbringers is when it really took off though. Bard was completely gutted because, again "too hard!!" The healers are what they are now and tank mechanics have slowly been eroded. All so little Timmy can pick whatever job he likes based on little more than aesthetic.

The irony is Yoshida's seeming frustration with criticism towards the two minute meta ("everyone needs to come to a consensus"), healer design ("Just go play Ultimate.") and even job changes (Kaiten and "button bloat") are all directly the result of them catering so much to a crowd that didn't care about those things to begin with.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Because the dev team themselves seem to adhere to the same philosophy: accessibility to its absolute extreme. We saw this as early as Stormblood when HW Dark Knight was completely overhauled because some people cried it was too difficult to play but they didn't want to play Warrior or Paladin since "Dark Knight's way cooler!!!" Shadowbringers is when it really took off though. Bard was completely gutted because, again "too hard!!" The healers are what they are now and tank mechanics have slowly been eroded. All so little Timmy can pick whatever job he likes based on little more than aesthetic.

The irony is Yoshida's seeming frustration with criticizing towards the two minute meta ("everyone needs to come to a consensus"), healer design ("Just go play Ultimate.") and even job changes (Kaiten and "button bloat") are all directly the result of them catering so much to a crowd that didn't care about those things to begin with.

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Here's how I would handle starting job levels in hindsight, if it were me in charge:

Every job added after ARR would start at level 30 and is accessible as soon as the player hits level 30. When new jobs are added, at the start of the expansion, there would be an EXP event for those new jobs that would drastically increase the amount of EXP gained form all sources for those jobs until maybe around X.05, or even X.1 until that job reaches the former level cap. In the upcoming examples, Viper and Pictomancer would start at 30, but might be receiving a 5x EXP modifier not just for defeating enemies, but for things like roulette bonuses and Wondrous Tails, etc until those jobs hit level 90. So anyone looking to play the new expansion with that new job would basically cruise through levels rapidly.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Here's how I would handle starting job levels in hindsight, if it were me in charge:

Every job added after ARR would start at level 30 and is accessible as soon as the player hits level 30. When new jobs are added, at the start of the expansion, there would be an EXP event for those new jobs that would drastically increase the amount of EXP gained form all sources for those jobs until maybe around X.05, or even X.1 until that job reaches the former level cap. In the upcoming examples, Viper and Pictomancer would start at 30, but might be receiving a 5x EXP modifier not just for defeating enemies, but for things like roulette bonuses and Wondrous Tails, etc until those jobs hit level 90. So anyone looking to play the new expansion with that new job would basically cruise through levels rapidly.

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That sounds like complete murder of already horribly grindy experience of leveling every job to max for no reason. As much as lvl 61 gunbreaker is a meme, it's not issue that really needs solving, not at cost of completely gutting the leveling experience for the jobs. It's already painful getting to 70 on ant of ARR/hw jobs, it doesn't need to be more tedious.

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Originally Posted by Heroman3003

That sounds like complete murder of already horribly grindy experience of leveling every job to max for no reason. As much as lvl 61 gunbreaker is a meme, it's not issue that really needs solving, not at cost of completely gutting the leveling experience for the jobs. It's already painful getting to 70 on ant of ARR/hw jobs, it doesn't need to be more tedious.

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The high level jobs create problems though in that people don’t know how to handle the jobs going into content that is designed to the basic class understanding in mind

Did you ever have to do holminster switch with a level 70 SGE who never picked up a healer before

Omni 90 shouldn’t be expected or actively encouraged without trying, Being level 90 in a class should mean that you can be dropped into current normal content and be able to do your job and do it decently, people getting classes at 70 then doing the MSQ roulette for a week then spamming diagnosis in dead ends is a serious problem with this game, sure if you start them on 30 they will probably just spam diagnosis in the MSQ roulette for a month instead but it may help some people, I definitely noticed that SGE is a great example of a class with a deceptively high skill floor but a very low skill ceiling, picking up SGE at 70 feels terrible, picking it up at 30 feels totally natural

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Originally Posted by Heroman3003

That sounds like complete murder of already horribly grindy experience of leveling every job to max for no reason. As much as lvl 61 gunbreaker is a meme, it's not issue that really needs solving, not at cost of completely gutting the leveling experience for the jobs. It's already painful getting to 70 on ant of ARR/hw jobs, it doesn't need to be more tedious.

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The idea would be the amount of time it takes to level a job when released to the old max level should be the same time it takes to level it normally to the old max level. But how about this for your more softer palette: All jobs just are max level. No grind necessary, everything just is level 100 at DT's release.

Not only that, but have you played reaper or summoner below 70? I'm convinced the only reason sage and gunbreaker are tolerable is due to them following the template so closely.