White Raven earring given out at The Rising event 2018

Your "apology" is not accepted.

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

And yet I see people with ultimate weapons, feast crowns and I could care less. Whatever one person pursues I say good for them but I don't go about saying:" Omg that is so cool!" when people realize that different people have different interests and not everyone has to follow or support your own just because its how you see it is when we can have taking points.

Otherwise, I have as many counter points to the inanity behind item > memory as you have points to defend whatever it is you cling to.

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The fact that you couldn't care less about other peoples achievements says more about you then the rewards themselves. You don't have to share someone's interest to be happy for (or at the very least, acknowledge) their success, whether its the fenrir mount, a really hard to get minion, a pvp reward, or an ultimate weapon, you still recognise the item as hard to obtain. Its a shame that in a social game such as this, we can't be social, instead we treat the accomplishment of others as a negative because they have something we don't.

Look up any study on the negative impact of participation prizes, the science doesn't support your opinion.

still waiting for the legacy tattoo to be released in a global event ;3

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

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All it looks to me now, if they're re-named to 'Replica White Ravens,' is that the White Ravens are more important 'trophies' than everything else in ARR-SB.

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Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu

People complained about the replica High Allagan and Dreadwyrm gear, so there still would've been seven legacy players complaining and the rest being people who started in 3.0 white knighting.

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Of course there would have been. Just about any action brings in complaints.
But it wouldn't be this severe, I'd suspect.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

All it looks to me now, if they're re-named to 'Replica White Ravens,' is that the White Ravens are more important 'trophies' than everything else in ARR-SB.

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But that then extends the view on the problem. It has long been said by a portion of the playerbase that the forced expiration of content is a bad thing, and it seems that it is coming into the spotlight again now due to an item that players thought would be protected from forced expiration has now expired. Its not just renaming the white ravens that needs to happen, the dev teams entire philosophy on forcibly expiring content needs to change. Just because the entire system is flawed doesn't mean that this one aspect with an easy fix should be ignored.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

The fact that you couldn't care less about other peoples achievements says more about you then the rewards themselves. You don't have to share someone's interest to be happy for (or at the very least, acknowledge) their success, whether its the fenrir mount, a really hard to get minion, a pvp reward, or an ultimate weapon, you still recognise the item as hard to obtain. Its a shame that in a social game such as this, we can't be social, instead we treat the accomplishment of others as a negative because they have something we don't.

Look up any study on the negative impact of participation prizes, the science doesn't support your opinion.

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Browsed about 5 articles about it online. Shows the same thing as I see here. Emphasis on feeling like you're part of a higher level or a 'select few'. Also shows you went on a tangent because you felt like I didn't value your achievement because it says "more about me", you missed the quote about "good for them".

I am not gonna praise or shower them with attention over something that is not of my interest, that doesn't mean: I won't respect their opinion and preference (more power to them and what not) but the fact that you need to be recognized and feel special because you did something when it was 'important' or 'valuable' says more about those who place value on the reward, more than the experience and the personal achievement.

Like I already said: There are as many counter points as there are positives. Sample studies and anecdotes don't mean much when cultural differences already make a large divide.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Its a shame that in a social game such as this, we can't be social, and we treat the accomplishment of others as a negative because they have something we don't.

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^This

So much salt towards people who have things they don't. To the point where they are just accusing everyone of "bragging" or needing to feel "special" just because they have an achievement or rewards that they don't have.

It's sad, but I have exact examples of what you are pointing out Lambda. I've had people in-game get salty about my mount collection to the point where I ended up feeling insecure about even using my favourite mounts because people would accuse me of showing off or bragging. Like, I want to use my favourite mounts because I like them, not to brag. Just because someone personally likes their accomplishments doesn't mean they are using it to brag or want to use it to brag.

It also feels so crappy when you get a rare item you've been working on trying to get but you feel like you can't even share your happiness with anyone else because they'll label you a show off or bragging that you obtained it. Even with people who you thought were supposed to be friends. Even in mount farming groups just winning the roll can turn people against you immediately and they can become openly rude in chat.

To me, naming it replica is the most reasonable and logical win-win solution, both sides get what they want.

By the way, I never earned the earrings in 1.0. Have to mention that before anyone accuses me of just wanting my "bragging rights" or "special" status. Kinda destroys a lot of people's arguments when there are people like me around that you can't throw all of these baseless accusations at to try to devalue their position as just being a show off.

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

I, myself, am the sort of person who separates the experience from the physical reward

FINAL FANTASY XIV Producer and Director, Naoki Yoshida

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This is how I approach things, too. That said, I'm in no position to tell people how to feel or where to place their sense of validation so yeah.

/shrug

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Originally Posted by Hazama999

This is how I approach things, too. That said, I'm in no position to tell people how to feel or where to place their sense of validation so yeah.

/shrug

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Same, but we seem to be in the 'wrong'. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Right. So, it's yet another case of of a vocal minority demanding that the status quo is preserved so they can feel 'special'. I'm not going to beat around the bush - I have never seen a single person using the earrings on Balmung, a server with quite a few players from the days of 1.0. I don't doubt that they were thrown into a retainer's inventory or armoire to gather dust until this controversy arose and those who had acquired them recalled that they exist.

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Vocal Minority or not it has been proven multiple times that the Devs themselves confirmed the status of White Ravens to be unobtainable by all who were not only 1.0 players but to those 1.0 players who even bothered to do the fight in the first place. What was done to them by people who owned them to this day, regardless of being glammed or thrown into the armoire, is irrelevant because as it stands its the only actual trophy any of the people had to clear. I'll repeat this again, I don't honestly care that they bring back 1.0 items as long as its done in a proper tribute such as recreation of said trials but if the item in question has a promised attached to it to become a memento purely for those who played the game when it was in dire straits then it must be honored.

A dev that constantly breaks promises is one you can not trust at all and its up to the community to make sure they uphold a high degree of standards when it comes to said promises. Were it an issue with Ultimate or PvP losing their status because they suddenly started giving out their rewards in the way they did the White Ravens you better be sure that I'll be ready to criticize the devs for failing to once again uphold a promise to their community and the core audience of those gamemodes. Time that passes is irrelevant and what the players who have them do with them is irrelevant, the only thing that matters here is if the Devs are keeping their word or not.

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Originally Posted by Miste

^This

So much salt towards people who have things they don't. To the point where they are just accusing everyone of "bragging" or needing to feel "special" just because they have an achievement or rewards that they don't have.

It's sad, but I have exact examples of what you are pointing out Lambda. I've had people in-game get salty about my mount collection to the point where I ended up feeling insecure about even using my favourite mounts because people would accuse me of showing off or bragging. Like, I want to use my favourite mounts because I like them, not to brag. Just because someone personally likes their accomplishments doesn't mean they are using it to brag or want to use it to brag.

It also feels so crappy when you get a rare item you've been working on trying to get but you feel like you can't even share your happiness with anyone else because they'll label you a show off or bragging that you obtained it. Even with people who you thought were supposed to be friends. Even in mount farming groups just winning the roll can turn people against you immediately and become openly rude in chat.

To me naming it replica is the most reasonable and logical win-win solution; both sides get what they want.

By the way, I never earned the earrings in 1.0. Have to mention that before anyone accuses me of just wanting my "bragging rights" or "special" status. Kinda destroys a lot of people's arguments when there are people like me around that you can't throw all of these baseless accusations at to try to devalue their position as just being a show off.

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I agree that we need much more civilized approaches to this discussion. I think the differences with mounts is that mounts can still be obtained at any point. Anyone that gives you issue over a mount that they could obtain is causing the problem. Not you. I think the exception is the one type of goobbue. Even then, no one should be shamed into not showing something. I would have been good with the replica suggestion for the earrings. However, I don't think it is a bad thing that an item no longer obtainable would be re-introduced.

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Originally Posted by Zsolen

I think the differences with mounts is that mounts can still be obtained at any point. Anyone that gives you issue over a mount that they could obtain is causing the problem. Not you. I think the exception is the one type of goobbue. Even then, no one should be shamed into not showing something. I would have been good with the replica suggestion for the earrings. However, I don't think it is a bad thing that an item no longer obtainable would be re-introduced.

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I wasn't telling my experiences in-game about my mounts to link the mounts to the earrings as an exact comparison, it was an example of the behavior that Lambda pointed out.

While not a direct comparison, it is still in the same ballpark though, because people seem to think that the only reason people want to keep the white ravens from 1.0 separate from the ones in the 2018 rising event is just to brag and lord their accomplishment over others. It is an extremely biased accusation, and honestly likely only used to try to devalue the position so they don't even need to argue the real points or look at this from a diplomatic standpoint.

To me, even though I never obtained the earrings in 1.0, I am trying to look at this from a logical standpoint. Instead of mocking people who care about something I might not care about, or mocking people for not caring about what I might care about, I figure a solution that would let both sides get what they want makes the most logical sense.

Naming it replica is logical since the 2018 rising event version of the earrings are not obtained the same way as they were in 1.0. In fact it is extremely different.

1.0 players who care get to keep their 1.0 version intact.
New players get a new item they never had access to before for glams and such, and a new link to 1.0 so they can enjoy being part of the story up to this point even if they weren't there for 1.0.

Yeah, I know they are going with the 'gloating' angle, and I don't think that is the best argument.

In order of personal preference:

Introducing Replica > Re-introducing original > Locking out glamour all together

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Originally Posted by KuwabaraValefor

Your "apology" is not accepted.

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Sorry, your opinion is not valid on this one.

Best solution would have been to re-introduce them in a style akin to the Sylphic Goobue and the 1.0 Goobue. Similar in nature but properly distinguishable.

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Originally Posted by Thamorian

Sorry, your opinion is not valid on this one.

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It's not an opinion to not accept an apology, and you can't force someone to accept an apology.

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Originally Posted by Noodle_Trinidad

Best solution would have been to re-introduce them in a style akin to the Sylphic Goobue and the 1.0 Goobue. Similar in nature but properly distinguishable.

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I disagree. If people wanted it as glamour, they may not want the new look. That puts us back at square one.

A hundred and two pages of people pissed off because of earrings?!

You guys got to play a different game with a different story that nobody else will ever have the chance to play because the game is freaking gone and you're complaining about exclusivity?! About other people having a crappy earring that only you had? Were you support to the game only conditional to receiving a virtual bauble?

You know what? Tough luck. They gave the item for free to everybody. Deal with it. What are you gonna do? Cancel your subscription? Because of a digital bijou? Geez!

This game already have a serious issue with exclusive items. Housing is freaking hell to get into. PVP items that only a bunch of people can ever get. Items that you need to pay real money to get because you didn't had the foresight to play the game at a certain date in the past, making catching up financially unfeasible. Exclusivity and gate keeping is already pretty annoying as it is. And you come here to complain about a earring?

Go cry me a river!

Great. Now I'm pissed too.

Personally, the people complaining should be happy he answered at all since there are a number of worse problems that could use some addressing. Also, I read through the white raven threads and most of what i saw was 2-3 people per thread arguing with EVERY other person in the thread. So yeah, vocal minority. I do understand where people are coming from when they say they were counting on SE's word about exclusivity. However, there have been a lot of times where the devs have said they would never do something or were going to do something and then either didn't or did do it. The devs are concerned with making money, they will do what they believe will bring them the most income. While I do agree about them keeping their word being important, i find being so concerned about a pair of earrings i've never seen a single person wear to be trivial. Now the dalamud horn, sure I have seen lots of people wear that and be proud of it but never the white raven earrings.

Also, you still have your exclusive chocobo, they can't introduce that since it has a lore component, and your reduced sub fee, something I am actually jealous of. Be happy for what you do have.

Finally, to the person complaining about not using mounts because of their friends being jealous of it, that says more about your friends then it does about your argument. You should be worried more about getting better friends.

Looking forward to seeing replicas of all other legacy rewards, it's okay because they have the word 'replica' before them!

Time-based exclusives are horsecrap, the earrings are not excluded.

This is a huge theme park MMO. If I see something, and I want it, it should be attainable through enough time, effort, and skill. I can get Ultimate Coil weapons. I can get the Mentor mount. That's the way it should be. Being told "Sorry, you can't get this ever because new players are second-class citizens" is not okay, and never should be.

Why? Because we all pay the same sub every month. I'm subbed to FFXIV, the whole game, not 95% of it.

The earrings are hideous, I don't care about them. I care about the principle here, it's time for time-based exclusives to stop. It's not fair to new players. I get that old players want to be rewarded. But, to have those rewards be unattainable for everyone else is a slap in the face to all the new players' sub money.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Time-based exclusives are horsecrap, the earrings are not excluded.

This is a huge theme park MMO. If I see something, and I want it, it should be attainable through enough time, effort, and skill. I can get Ultimate Coil weapons. I can get the Mentor mount. That's the way it should be. Being told "Sorry, you can't get this ever because new players are second-class citizens" is not okay, and never should be.

Why? Because we all pay the same sub every month. I'm subbed to FFXIV, the whole game, not 95% of it.

The earrings are hideous, I don't care about them. I care about the principle here, it's time for time-based exclusives to stop. It's not fair to new players. I get that old players want to be rewarded. But, to have those rewards be unattainable for everyone else is a slap in the face to all the new players' sub money.

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Actually the people with these exclusive items are not paying the same sub ^___^

However, I agree that all items should be obtainable with enough time and effort. But handing them out like nothing at an event is not the proper way. They could have added them as a Coil T9 Savage reward when you clear the fight synched / at minimum item level for example, to keep the value as a trophy item.

Jeez. More whining over these than with the state of things like Pagos...

For the record, having played for 3.5 years, I never knew these earrings existed, nor have I seen them until now (and I was on Balmung for all of HW). So to say it’s a vocal minority is an understatement.

Im gonna rock my white ravens and there's nothing you nerds can do about it

Woah all the Lagancy player this horriable? I love the new white reaven earing. Thank you Yoshida.
Don't worry about thos 1.0 player let them rage and cry, they discount already better then anything else.

Yoshida...

When your avatar stepped off that armor and personally thanked me for playing your game, it brought back a floodgate of emotion for me.

I come from the era where a game's ending was normally nothing more than a simple "Congratulations" screen. Where a "Thank you for playing" would have made the grind worthwhile.

And it did. For one wondrous moment, I was a kid at a bowling alley. Out of quarters but happy because I had conquered the game in front of me.

Thanks for that memory and experience.

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Originally Posted by Miste

So much salt towards people who have things they don't. To the point where they are just accusing everyone of "bragging" or needing to feel "special" just because they have an achievement or rewards that they don't have.

I've had people in-game get salty about my mount collection to the point where I ended up feeling insecure about even using my favourite mounts because people would accuse me of showing off or bragging.

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I think you misunderstood. I haven't had the impression that anyone in this thread is mad that "other people have achievements they don't"; I for one can't care less. What I don't like so much is the drama that has been created over something I don't consider right, to the point that Yoshida himself felt compelled to apologize. And let's be honest here, as much as one would like to paint the situation with kinder words, this drama does boil down to people wanting to feel exclusive and special. The good memories and the satisfaction of having accomplished something won't work for them; they want to own things that no one else owns, and they want it to show. It's that simple.

Now, people who beat Coil back in the day saw how Coil became much easier for everyone. Same about people (like me) who worked for several months straight to reach max PVP rank, back when Wolf Marks glamours were rank-locked. I don't see why 1.0 players should get a different treatment, especially about a single event that happened 6 years ago. The past doesn't tend to be relevant anymore beyond the private memories everyone will have.

And I reiterate, this isn't out of spite. Quite the opposite, I echo the sentiment from some posts about how it's good that everything becomes obtainable sooner or later. New players can enjoy what they missed, and people who are into exclusive stuff can enjoy their exclusiveness while it lasts, which is quite long. Just not forever.

(For the record, I enjoyed the Rising event but I didn't get the earrings. I have no use for them, and at this point they're more a reminder of all this drama than they are of the anniversary).

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Originally Posted by Alenonimo

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And we're probably at 10 cumulative pages of people complaining how long this thread is. Congratulations, you're even lower than the people you just tried to look down on!

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

This is a huge theme park MMO. If I see something, and I want it, it should be attainable through enough time, effort, and skill. I can get Ultimate Coil weapons. I can get the Mentor mount. That's the way it should be. Being told "Sorry, you can't get this ever because new players are second-class citizens" is not okay, and never should be.

Why? Because we all pay the same sub every month. I'm subbed to FFXIV, the whole game, not 95% of it.

The earrings are hideous, I don't care about them. I care about the principle here, it's time for time-based exclusives to stop. It's not fair to new players. I get that old players want to be rewarded. But, to have those rewards be unattainable for everyone else is a slap in the face to all the new players' sub money.

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A mighty entitled one this is. You didnt obviously pay the sub nor play and earn the items in 1.0 !

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Originally Posted by LastFireAce

Woah all the Lagancy player this horriable? I love the new white reaven earing. Thank you Yoshida.
Don't worry about thos 1.0 player let them rage and cry, they discount already better then anything else.

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Here we go again with the Legacy discount, had you played and supported the game back in the time, you also could have had the items and discount. Oh the jealousy.

I feel like this thread should be locked now, all that seems to be left is people insulting each other.

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Originally Posted by Ozz

A mighty entitled one this is. You didnt obviously pay the sub nor play and earn the items in 1.0 !

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So my sub is less valuable than yours? Because I don't have a time machine?

New players are not second-class citizens.

Everyone should have the chance to earn anything, not be arbitrarily locked out because of when we decided to play or not.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

So my sub is less valuable than yours? Because I don't have a time machine?

New players are not second-class citizens.

Everyone should have the chance to earn anything, not be arbitrarily locked out because of when we decided to play or not.

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No. just no. your sense of entitlement doesnt overrule the effort and long term subs that other have played. Again, had you played and supported the game back at the time you would have had access. Dont blame others or feel you sub is less valuable just because you chose to not give the game ago. in my opinion the battle system in 1.23 was better than what it is now, i paid for the memories, i have my items.

I can't be the only one horrified Yoshida felt the need to come into this ridiculous thread to apologize. I hope he read or had someone read the entire thread to him so he's aware this is not 100+ pages of upset players. This thread has a few entitled 1.0 players who are vastly outnumbered by the mixed effort of reasonable 1.0 players and 2.0 players trying to get naysayers to chill.

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Originally Posted by Ozz

No. just no. your sense of entitlement doesnt overrule the effort and long term subs that other have played. Again, had you played and supported the game back at the time you would have had access. Dont blame others or feel you sub is less valuable just because you chose to not give the game ago. in my opinion the battle system in 1.23 was better than what it is now, i paid for the memories, i have my items.

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I don't blame anybody, and I don't FEEL entitled. I AM entitled, because I pay for the whole game. I don't pay for most of the game, I pay for ALL of it.

My sub is worth just as much as yours, regardless of when we started playing. Unless SE wants to charge me less, it makes no sense to provide me with less content.

You know, this is the take-home point:

Unless SE wants to charge me less, it makes no sense to provide me with less content. It is objectively unfair.

Again, the content itself isn't worth caring about. The earrings are ugly, all the 1.0 content is honestly not very cool. I don't want any of it. I don't care about any of it.

I care about the unfairness.

Time-gated exclusive content is a cancer, in all it's forms. If you want to have old stuff be gated, that's fine. But, do it in a different way. Make someone clear T9 Savage blindfolded, for all I care. But, everything should be available through some means other than time travel.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/...66/Z7HeRxU.png

The whole White Ravens drama in a nutshell.

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HA! Thank you for providing, friend, I appreciate it.

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Originally Posted by Clover_Blake

I think you misunderstood. I haven't had the impression that anyone in this thread is mad that "other people have achievements they don't"; I for one can't care less. What I don't like so much is the drama that has been created over something I don't consider right, to the point that Yoshida himself felt compelled to apologize.

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I'm not sure what post you read, but the OP was simply constructive feedback based on her opinion. This is drama? Are you sure? Or are you lumping the original message into what the thread turned into due to some posters being rude and basically inciting flames on purpose?

If you have issue with that then I suggest going back through the thread and pinpointing the posters who actually caused the thread to turn into drama and taking it up with them; instead of making it out to be that the original feedback is drama when it is not.

If Yoshida felt the need to apologize then that was his decision.

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Originally Posted by Clover_Blake

And let's be honest here, as much as one would like to paint the situation with kinder words, this drama does boil down to people wanting to feel exclusive and special. The good memories and the satisfaction of having accomplished something won't work for them; they want to own things that no one else owns, and they want it to show. It's that simple.

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This is exactly the kind of post that turns a thread into drama. You are painting other people in whatever colour your opinion thinks they should be no matter what the actual truth is or bothering to discuss with them to find out why they might feel the way they do. You are basically saying "you have this opinion so you must be this or that", pretty basic form of prejudice.

It is just your opinion that people just want to feel exclusive and special, it is just your opinion that they want things that no one else owns. You can't just tell other people how they feel about something and pass it off as a fact. You aren't them and you don't even know them.

You claim you hate the drama surrounding this whole thing, but you are participating in it and your last two posts in here are simply stirring the pot as well, so it is pretty pointless and hypocritical to try to complain about something you are actively doing yourself. If you don't like the drama then don't throw gasoline on the embers.

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Originally Posted by Clover_Blake

Now, people who beat Coil back in the day saw how Coil became much easier for everyone. Same about people (like me) who worked for several months straight to reach max PVP rank, back when Wolf Marks glamours were rank-locked. I don't see why 1.0 players should get a different treatment, especially about a single event that happened 6 years ago. The past doesn't tend to be relevant anymore beyond the private memories everyone will have.

And I reiterate, this isn't out of spite. Quite the opposite, I echo the sentiment from some posts about how it's good that everything becomes obtainable sooner or later. New players can enjoy what they missed, and people who are into exclusive stuff can enjoy their exclusiveness while it lasts, which is quite long. Just not forever.

(For the record, I enjoyed the Rising event but I didn't get the earrings. I have no use for them, and at this point they're more a reminder of all this drama than they are of the anniversary).

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If any of this is directed to me it has no relevance because I never said that the earrings have to stay exclusive and unobtainable. I simply suggested they be called replicas because it makes logical sense and both sides get what they want.

1.0 players who care about preserving their achievement for themselves keep that intact and new players get the previously unobtainable item. It is win-win which seems better than mocking people for caring about an item, or mocking people for not caring about the item, or claiming people are this or that based on my own biased personal feelings... I simply offer a reasonable logical solution where both sides win.

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Originally Posted by Bahati

I can't be the only one horrified Yoshida felt the need to come into this ridiculous thread to apologize. I hope he read or had someone read the entire thread to him so he's aware this is not 100+ pages of upset players. This thread has a few entitled 1.0 players who are vastly outnumbered by the mixed effort of reasonable 1.0 players and 2.0 players trying to get naysayers to chill.

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Actually it's a thread of people reasonably upset about SE going back on their word, and a whole mess of trolls doing the same mental gymnastics and logical fallacies over and over, like "it's been five years and I say that arbitrary amount of time is enough for it to have been exclusive, so now I should get it" or "it's totally fine that SE lied because they're a company and companies lie, also it says in the TOS that they can do whatever they want so you have only yourself to blame if you ever believed anything they said" and other things equally mind boggling as to how anyone actually thinks like that.

Yeah I think most people can separate the digital items from the memories they made getting them. This topic didn't warrant such contrition though it is nice that Yoshi-P chimed in. All this hubbub over digital items that can go away forever at the flick of a switch is amazing and just comes down to different mentalities I guess.

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Originally Posted by Bahati

I can't be the only one horrified Yoshida felt the need to come into this ridiculous thread to apologize. I hope he read or had someone read the entire thread to him so he's aware this is not 100+ pages of upset players. This thread has a few entitled 1.0 players who are vastly outnumbered by the mixed effort of reasonable 1.0 players and 2.0 players trying to get naysayers to chill.

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The strength of a very vocal minority it seems.