Cash shop confirmed

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

I will also point out that while you seem to accept the cash shop standard in MMOs... you seem to largely ignore how they are implemented.. which is confusing.

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That's because acknowledging they have so far invariably sold game-affecting things like insta-levelling or in game currency hurts his argument.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

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I like how you cut and forget key parts of my points to be able to "prove" yours, together with your strawman arguments, as usual.

I'm done with you. Have fun :3

So gonna buy the Odin mount!

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Mog Station. Fantasias. Extra Retainers.

Been here for months and you've likely played since at least 2.3.

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Why are you assuming people are okay with those?

Also since you're a XI expert (obsessed) and are always striving to turn this into XI HD remake, how did the cash shop work there?

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Originally Posted by Zanmato

As long as they stick to past event items, I don't see a problem with this.

HOWEVER...

Sleipnir Mount was set to be an item obtainable from Urth's Fount (Extreme),

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Source? There is no official stating that the mount was obtainable from Odin Extreme, hell at this point we don't know much of anything besides what they are offering.

I'm not sure if this was brought up yet or not, and honestly I'd be shocked if it hasn't, but here is goes...

What do people generally spend gil on? Vanity items, minions, housing items? Aside from carries, housing plots, and materia I don't see much else to spend it on. When I look at the MB some of these items are going for millions of gil. Baby opo-opo? Farm mythflox for weeks if you want a shot at this little puppy. Xande's Throne? An equal amount of time in ST if you want to be the proud owner of this bad boy. Otherwise you are off to the MB to obtain these items. I hope you have 3 million gil to toss away for one of these items. You don't? No big deal! Off to the RMT you go!

I'm sorry playerbase, but you have already voted for a cash shop. That time you threw your cash away for a few million gil in order to show off your new minion or housing item was a vote for SE to impliment their own cash shop. Now that SE has their net out to catch the beautiful butterflies flapping from your wallets it is far too late to change your vote. Could SE have thought of a better way to fight RMT? Sure, but you have already proved that you will spend your hard earned money on in game items and now they want a piece of the pie. No amount of QQing is going to change that. Not your boycott, not your abscence of a subscription, nothing. The next time you, or know someone who is, thinking about buying gil to fund themselves in game think long and hard on it, because SE is going to look for a way to cash in on it. Need materia for your Novus? That will be the next thing you see in the cash shop. Need to clear content and can't afford the gil to purchase a carry? SE will find a way for you to pay them for it. Need that housing plot? $25 my little friend. There is no turning back from what we have started, don't let it go further than this, THAT is how you vote.

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Originally Posted by MiniTofu

I know, TERA Online RNG cashshop is just plain money drainer.

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I would definitely be against the cash shop if they started to add RNG boxes like some other games have done but the games that normally have those are Free to Play.

what I read here is hilarious.

best part:
"SE doesn't need the money."

IT IS AN ENTERPRISE.
ENTERPRISES GOAL: MAKING MONEY.
THEY WILL MAKE AS MUCH MONEY AS THEY CAN POSSIBLY GET.
DEAL WITH IT.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Tl;dr version:

Against: "No P2P MMO should have a Cash Shop, I mean, look at all of the MMOs that milk players with game breaking items. I forgot to mention these are F2P and Pay to Win MMORPGs and never has happened in a P2P MMO before."

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It has already been explained to you, in this thread and in other threads, that all those games started with their Cash Shop while they were still P2P and later went F2P...first a couple vanity to test the waters, then more and more vanity stuff, then finally some "comodity items" to test the waters again, then more comodities items, rinse and repeat.
Then when subscriptions started to drop, they turn to full F2P with a pay to win cash shop as they are now.

I don't know how long everyone here has been into MMORPGs gaming, maybe to some ppl this is their first MMO, or maybe they just played WoW/XI.
People making assumptions here of what will happen are not doing so because they are wicked or evil or hate SE....they are doing them before they've seen the exact same things, argument and defenders saying "no way that's going to happen" happen in countles other AAA MMOs for the past decade.

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Originally Posted by Erudain

It has already been explained to you, in this thread and in other threads, that all those games started with their Cash Shop while they were still P2P and later went F2P.

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Out of curiosity, what are some examples of these games?

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Originally Posted by Phe

what I read here is hilarious.

best part:
"SE doesn't need the money."

IT IS AN ENTERPRISE.
ENTERPRISES GOAL: MAKING MONEY.
THEY WILL MAKE AS MUCH MONEY AS THEY CAN POSSIBLY GET.
DEAL WITH IT.

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It's even funnier when you know that in 2013, they had 22% less net assets than they did in 2010.

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

Nice try, but what we're saying is the following:

1) Before the introduction of the cash shop you could buy past years' event items for a small gil fee. Now you have to pay real cash, just because.

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As it has been stated, Calamity Salvager.

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

2) As the dev. team doesn't have unlimited time, it means that part of the time that would otherwise go to develop things for everyone to enjoy will go now to the cash shop.

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The development team is not a single entity. People who design instances are not the same people who design the items and these people are not the same who do animation and these people don't design world content, etc. So while it might add some slight workload for the people who do items, it's not going to be something drastic. You're speaking like you have for a guarantee that they will be doing multiple sets of gear every week for the shop and left with minimal time for the game itself when that's just pure conjecture.

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

3) We're more than sure that they'll throw the cool looking designs to the cash shop, and the normal/ugly ones will be the ones that we'll get for "free". You don't have to be very smart to see that, as they want to be able to SELL them, not having them sitting there with no sales.

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Again, pure conjecture. If anything, the new Koenig and Aries recipes coming in 2.4 are a point against you.

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

4) We already had this discussion when the extra retainers were introduced, with people saying "it won't get worse, you're paranoid", "it's just retainers, they won't put a cash shop", and "I'm sure that ventures will be hard to get", among other excuses. History is repeating again, and some people keep their blindfolds no matter what.

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I never saw those threads but then again, I wasn't as active back then so I really can't say anything here on this point.

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

5) We're already paying a sub, and the game is very successful. SE doesn't need the money and, coupled with1), it's a slap in the face of all of their customers. In other words, this not very customer friendly, and we're in our right to voice our concerns (and even stop paying if we so want).

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(Bolded part)I assumed that after posting the link to their financial records at least 3 times in this thread that people would stop spreading this lie:

http://www.hd.square-enix.com/eng/ne...q4earnings.pdf
http://www.hd.square-enix.com/eng/pdf/ar_2013_01en.pdf

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

6) Just because it's vanity that doesn't mean that it doesn't matter. Everyone plays (or has been playing for over 4 years) the game for a reason, and they're in their right to enjoy it doing whatever they want to do. Just because you only care about raids that doesn't mean that other people shouldn't enjoy collecting vanity items (see housing, for instance). Getting some of it out of their reach all of a sudden is a cheap move on SE's part.

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And nothing prevents you from getting other vanity items in game but you're not entitled to all the other content they create. It states as much in the User Agreement you agreed to. If you want to look it up:

http://support.na.square-enix.com/ru...2&tag=users_en

Section 4.1

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

7) Minions attached to physical items don't fall under a cash shop category, even if they're almost crossing the line. After all, what you're supposed to be buying is the physical thing, and the minion is a gift. Not to mention that physical items can't be produced as fast as digital ones, so this doesn't have the same screwing potential as a cash shop does.

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Actually, it's the same concept. Vanity attached to a price. The 3 people I know who got the CD all did so for the minion attached to it and most minion collector perfectionist will have bought the CD because else, their collection would remain incomplete.

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

8) Expansions are NOT the same thing as this. The price of it VS it's value regarding content, systems, etc. is more fair that paying 2-5€ for a single digital item.

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Well the thing is that you have no choice to buy the expansion else you're stuck in past content without any means to progress so using the expansion pack in a cash shop argument is stupid on both side of this argument as it's a necessity and it always has been.

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

9) If we wanted to have a cash shop we could be playing another MMO, even those P2P ones that already had one. Maybe we were here partly because it didn't have that "feature"?

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I still can't understand how a cash shop that you're not forced to buy from can be a deal breaker on a game you supposedly enjoy playing.

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Originally Posted by Lyron

Since when did customers stop having the right to complain about a business? If a company wants to make more money so their execs can have bigger, that's their right and its to be expected. But the customer has the right to complain about their practices. The consumer has a lot more power than some of you tend to believe and that power can often force a company to adjust their strategy.

Just keep in mind that there is a reason public relations and customer service exist.

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Exactly. This is the final nail on the coffin for being a fanboy for Square. I was really upset with the additional DLC for XII-2, etc, and this just seals it for me. They're quickly starting to look like EA, and I haven't purchased anything from them in the last few years because they're so greedy.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

I still can't understand how a cash shop that you're not forced to buy from can be a deal breaker on a game you supposedly enjoy playing.

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What's funny is these other MMO's all have cash shops too lol...

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Originally Posted by SinisterIsBack

What's funny is these other MMO's all have cash shops too lol...

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And most of these are free to play. But if you're paying for a subscription monthly, this cash shop (other than server transfers and fantasias) is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

To which I reply with:


At this point you're just a troll. pls stop

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I entirely agree, I think it's fair to say Tupsi is doing this all on purpose now. It's hilarious.

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Originally Posted by Riviere

Out of curiosity, what are some examples of these games?

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TERA, The Secret World, Aion, Defiance, just to name a few.

I think having a sub and this kind of BS in the shape of cash shop is just too much greed on SE's part.

Earlier they said that design, production and developement time of cash shop items in F2P takes away a lot of resources from actual game content production.

Now they're doing it anyway and as a result everyone playing this game loses.
I'm sure no-one would like to trade content for vanity products you pay for but that's exactly what's happening here.

TERA and Defiance are terrible for cash shops lol

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Originally Posted by Jaybot

And most of these are free to play. But if you're paying for a subscription monthly, this cash shop (other than server transfers and fantasias) is ridiculous.

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So what you are saying is, its ok for a game to have a cash shop if its F2P? Meanwhile, this F2P game doesn't actually allow you to play the full game i.e. restrictions on gear you can wear, cannot travel to all areas, etc. on TOP of vanity and mounts in their cash shop and yet that is AOK!

What I find ridiculous is the fact that it is older event items, If you've done the event they are available via the calamity salvager. What, do you expect them to bring back past events each year? Eventually the whole year would nothing but past events.

The odin mount and minions you cant really complain about as we don't know if they will be in the game or not. Maybe the mount is as rare as mirrors? (which is pretty damn rare), same applies to the minions.

WE DONT KNOW ENOUGH YET TO BE CLAIMING WHAT THIS THREAD IS CLAIMING.

Woot, get your plastic out

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Originally Posted by Roris

TERA, The Secret World, Aion, Defiance, just to name a few.

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Weren't all those games doing terrible and were forced to go F2P (Save for TSW that is just B2P) with a Cash shop to survive?

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Originally Posted by Riviere

Weren't all those games doing terrible and were forced to go F2P (Save for TSW that is just B2P) with a Cash shop to survive?

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TERA was actually doing fine up until it introduced its cash shop which drove away many subscribers. TSW was subscription based and also launched with a cash shop, then the B2P switch happened. Aion was also doing somewhat ok in Korea before the shift, it didn't really bring anything new to the table over here in the west so they turned it into F2P, because its launch cash shop supported it anyway. Now Defiance I'll give you that, it still launched with a cash shop though.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

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You could but it'd be out of context considering I said, If Yoshida was serious about what he said.

There's an if there. It's like, If he's really not going to go P2W this is what you wont see. Because these things are pay to win.

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Originally Posted by Riviere

Out of curiosity, what are some examples of these games?

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Age of Conan, DC Universe, Aion, Rift, Tera, SW:TOR, Dungeons & Dragons Online, Star Trek Online, LotR....there are plenty of examples...

Edit: and before you ask, yes, all those games introduced their cash shop before going F2P and it drove ppl away from the game....cash shop alone was not the cause for them to go F2P but it certainly helped.

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Originally Posted by Phe

what I read here is hilarious.

best part:
"SE doesn't need the money."

IT IS AN ENTERPRISE.
ENTERPRISES GOAL: MAKING MONEY.
THEY WILL MAKE AS MUCH MONEY AS THEY CAN POSSIBLY GET.
DEAL WITH IT.

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They want it, but they don't need it. What we mean with this is that the game is not in danger and is/was very profitable for them (if we believe what they told us, anyway). Why is that important? Because they changed how things work and devalued our subs just because they want more money, and we're not happy about it.

And yes, they can do it as an enterprise, but we as customers have EVERY right to not accept it and send them our feedback.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

As it has been stated, Calamity Salvager.

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We aren't talking about the calamity salvager, but about those NPCs that appeared during each event and sold the old event items for a gil fee, even if you didn't take part on them. That has been taken away from the game, period.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

The development team is not a single entity. People who design instances are not the same people who design the items and these people are not the same who do animation and these people don't design world content, etc. So while it might add some slight workload for the people who do items, it's not going to be something drastic. You're speaking like you have for a guarantee that they will be doing multiple sets of gear every week for the shop and left with minimal time for the game itself when that's just pure conjecture.

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Nope, the development team is not a single entity, but the guys that make minions, the guys that make mounts, the guys that make gear sets, etc. are all the same. They will obviously produce less of those because they'll have to make things for the cash shop too.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Again, pure conjecture. If anything, the new Koenig and Aries recipes coming in 2.4 are a point against you.

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So you know that they don't have better looking items on the work that will go to the cash shop. Talk about conjectures...

Logic dictates that the best looking and more desired items will go to the cash shop. Otherwise they won't be sold.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

I never saw those threads but then again, I wasn't as active back then so I really can't say anything here on this point.

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It was exactly the same situation and counter-arguments that we're having now. And I've yet to see anyone of those that defended SE back them come here and apologize.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

(Bolded part)I assumed that after posting the link to their financial records at least 3 times in this thread that people would stop spreading this lie:

http://www.hd.square-enix.com/eng/ne...q4earnings.pdf
http://www.hd.square-enix.com/eng/pdf/ar_2013_01en.pdf

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Read what I said above.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

And nothing prevents you from getting other vanity items in game but you're not entitled to all the other content they create. It states as much in the User Agreement you agreed to. If you want to look it up:

http://support.na.square-enix.com/ru...2&tag=users_en

Section 4.1

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To be honest, we're not entitled to ANYTHING besides being able to access the game until SE wants. That doesn't mean that we can't let them know our discontent with any changes to the game (be it PvE, PvP, services...), nor does it mean that they have out wallets hostage until the end of time. Hint: they don't, so they might want to keep their customers happy or... well, 1.0.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Actually, it's the same concept. Vanity attached to a price. The 3 people I know who got the CD all did so for the minion attached to it and most minion collector perfectionist will have bought the CD because else, their collection would remain incomplete.

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Yes, some people buy them for the minion, but they aren't doing it right. The minion is a GIFT, not what you're buying. And, as I said, as it's linked to a physical item it means that they can't go overboard with it either.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Well the thing is that you have no choice to buy the expansion else you're stuck in past content without any means to progress so using the expansion pack in a cash shop argument is stupid on both side of this argument as it's a necessity and it always has been.

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You lost the point.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

I still can't understand how a cash shop that you're not forced to buy from can be a deal breaker on a game you supposedly enjoy playing.

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Because some people enjoy playing with vanity. Different people, different tastes. And they have been able to do that for over 4 years now, so it's understandable that this change has got many of them (us) a bit mad with SE.

Look back through my post history and find my full feelings on this if you wish. As of right now, my subscription hangs on a knife edge. I love this game, but I DESPISE this choice.

Tl;dr: Vanity is conteny in FFXIV. They are selling content for extra money, in game. I can't believe people are defending this.

I hope everyone who whines about the cash shop will unsub.

I wonder if the people that post "a sub doesn't entitle you to all content" would be just as well paying for an expansion, while instances, quests, items, vanity items, pets and all sorts of other things went to the cash shop?

If a sub AND expansion purchase don't entitle you to all content... then what DO they get you?

Well, apparently to these people they get you as much or little as SE decides to give you.... which means you are just buying a pig in a poke with pretty anime packaging.

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Originally Posted by SevenHeavens

I hope everyone who whines about the cash shop will unsub.

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I hope you aren't serious, if you really like this game. People leaving is NEVER a good thing.

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Originally Posted by Erudain

Age of Conan, DC Universe, Aion, Rift, Tera, SW:TOR, Dungeons & Dragons Online, Star Trek Online, LotR....there are plenty of examples...

Edit: and before you ask, yes, all those games introduced their cash shop before going F2P and it drove ppl away from the game....cash shop alone was not the cause for them to go F2P but it certainly helped.

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TERA's store was added 2 months after launch and all it had were the same services provided by the fantasia (Gender change, appearance change, race change), a name change service and weapon skins for every class. Yes, people complained about it like they always do, but I seriously doubt it drove many players away (Most of them are just talk). People stopped playing because it was too repetitive with not enough endgame content to keep the players busy. When Manaya's Core was added, that's all most high levels did (That or AC HM). It's like if the only thing to do at level 50 in this game was Titan HM and Titan Extreme, people wouldn't stay for long in this game if endgame was just that.

RIFT had types of Collector's Editions, for the base game, for the ashes of history world event and for the expansion. The only item I remember it having that wasn't one of the account upgrades before they went F2P was the Armored Tiger mount, that's all it had and it had nothing to do with the decline of the population. Some people were (and still are) experiencing awful performance issues despite playing on high-end computers, others found the Storm Legion dungeons too hard and the community too unforgiving to run them with the Dungeon Finder and others like myself just got bored of learning a new spec every week because of Trion's weekly attempts to balance my calling.

AION's Black Cloud Marketplace opened in anticipation of patch 3.0 which was the conversion to F2P and you could pre-purchase items for the upcoming update. AION lost players because of how grindy it was at the beginning and Western players surely do not enjoy having to kill a million mobs just to get 1 level. There were very few quests available which forced players to grind, some of my fellow guild members ran Fire Temple over and over from Lv30 until around 40 which became too repetitive, so they got bored and quit.

I don 't know about the rest of those games that you mentioned, but the 3 that I played don't apply to your rule.

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Originally Posted by Alukah

Also since you're a XI expert (obsessed) and are always striving to turn this into XI HD remake, how did the cash shop work there?

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Hey now. FFXI didn't have cash shop. :P They only charged once for a password generator thing (forgot the name) and as a plus for buying it, they gave you extra inventory space. Which was nice. They did it so that players could have extra security to avoid accounts getting hacked. They also offered another ingame item for real money. The talisman, that gave you some teleport benefits. I don't know exactly since I never bought it.

Asides from that, the inventory space has been free, same with seasonal items (even the old ones) you just have to pay gil. They never had a cash shop. This is what I loved about the game, it was unique and different from the other MMO companies who were ripping you off directly to your face. It's called company ethics. A company without ethics that only sees players as dollar signs is a turn off for me personally and makes me stop playing their games even if they are good. That's why when you establish a company you set a mision, vision and values. Values that move your company. The company should stay true to their values until the end. The main drive should not be the money.

I love FFXIV's dev team and all, but I have to be honest. I think that putting the old seasonal items in the cash shop whereas one time people could buy it with gil, is very very unfair for the new people who might've missed the events and it comes off as greedy.

I know it's a company and they are there to make money. But never ever abuse of your clients (us) because they will not buy any of your products ever again. They will notice. You have to keep your clients too in order to make money.

With that said, it would be nice that the items that are going to the cash shop would also be available in game, because there's diff type of players and both should be treated fairly. One type despises the RNG or they just don't wanna spend more time trying to get a vanity item and would rather throw the money at it. The other type sees it as a fun challenge and feels more satisfaction earning said item by actually playing the game.

However it's not up to the Dev's team to make these financial decisions... so let's not give them a hard time but do give them honest feedback. :)

While I disagree with what they are doing, I respect their decision. And all this is, well, my honest feedback.

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Originally Posted by SevenHeavens

I hope everyone who whines about the cash shop will unsub.

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Here's hoping they don't. Here's hoping they make their opinion known and then keep playing.

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Originally Posted by Erudain

....cash shop alone was not the cause for them to go F2P but it certainly helped.

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Maybe. But for at least two of those (D&DO and SWTOR), the cash store had nothing to do with driving down subs. Those games had loads of other issues that caused that. I think people are ascribing way too much sub-killing power to the cash shop.

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Originally Posted by Riviere

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Rift added "special editions mounts" back when it was P2P, it was a re-skin of the faster mount in game, ppl was mad since you didn't have to get it/pay it with in game money.

Aion started with weapons skins back in 1.8 (lightsaber skin for swords, popsicle skin for mace) etc, then in 2.0 they added the "socketing success supplements" (permanet item in the store) and "100% socketing success supplements" (timed offer, they sold those for 1 week IIRC) for manastone socketing when it was still P2P. that was their field test that they could include game changing items to the store.
Then on the other hand, you have the "legit RMT" it can create, I remember ppl buying the lightsaber skin on the store and then selling it in-game for millions.

It's true as you say the games had other issues, that's why I said the cash shops weren't the only reason ppl left, but "another" reason people left....and if you are losing ppl the least you want to do is give them more motives to leave.

One can truly hope they will not go down this road with FF XIV cash shop...problem is trying to cope with what you hope for and what history of the MMORPG genre tells us...

Wow this is a big thread :)

I suggest we wait and see what happens rather than predicting.

If they keep the shop to fluff items i.e. mounts, pets, clothes, etc. then I don't see it being much of an issue. I see this as paying a bit extra for the leather trim.

If they start adding 'power' or 'story' to the shop then they are gonna have to go FTP or BTP. Given the current sub numbers I suspect that would be a bad move for them.

It does raise an interesting question though... Where do you draw the line? If they add an 'xpack' to the shop im sure we would all buy it. How much content do they have to include to make it an 'xpack' and not just gated content?

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Originally Posted by Erudain

One can truly hope they will not go down this road with FF XIV cash shop...problem is trying to cope with what you hope for and what history of the MMORPG genre tells us...

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The examples you gave (faster mount, better gear enhancements) are P2W, Yoshi seemed pretty firm on it being vanity only. I can understand the skepticism though (<cough>housing<cough>).

I'm going to hold out hope that they are going the blizzard route and just sell pure vanity (excluding WoW's new "pay for level 90!" nonsense. Screw that noise). As long as it's vanity stuff and the gear and minions are untradeable, this shouldn't affect the player base.

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Originally Posted by Tyla_Esmeraude

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Good point!
I'll be more blunt about it... :)

Are you watching, Yoshi? Can you say NO to Mr. Matsuda and tell him to stop looking at the ff14 subscribers like a rigged slot machine?

btw I'm done talking to passive people that accept everything they're told, you guys have fun staring at your odin horse you bought and be proud of it.

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Originally Posted by SevenHeavens

I hope everyone who whines about the cash shop will unsub.

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To speed up the process of this game going F2P and offering P2W stuff on the cash shop so you can buy success?

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

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Sorry to disappoint you but I haven't lost anything. My stance is "A company has every right to want money so let's wait to see how it turns out". Yours however is fear mongering and pure conjecture and don't say that I'm making conjecture either as I clearly stated that there is no way to know as of now what will and will not be in there in the future.

By the way, you have yet to explain how they don't need the money. You keep claiming that they don't yet the annual report for the fiscal year of 2013 claims otherwise.

You'd have thought moneyhatting Tomb Raider off to m$ would have covered the annual bonuses this year... Guess Yoshida-san needs a new imported merc too o_0

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Originally Posted by Tyla_Esmeraude

Hey now. FFXI didn't have cash shop. :P

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Actually, for awhile they sold item codes for the Barret and Shirt (Vanadiel Collection bonus items) for about $4 each, it went over quite well because some people wanted them for other characters they had and didn't meet the requirements for (as they've been playing for 9 years at that point.)