#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Their vision was 1.0

That’s always been the stupidest logic

14 is literally the exact refutation of your following point, if the developers just went “fuck your we made this game play it or leave it” the game would have died in 1.0

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The main difference is that the devs listened to what the majority said, and you ain't in that category for sure, even if some might share your sentiment.

For the love of Hydaelyn, it's Mr.Majoritah's super sikkrit weapon.

"dev listened to what majority said"
also same dev: "VPR can't have noxious gas!; DRG will no longer be jumping!; Stormblood Lily is our pinnacle of healer's design!! Please try before complaining!!!"

Where are these feedbacks even collected...

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

As for WoW healers being incredibly popular, a dozen recent posts and data contradict your claim. Perhaps the healing spec of the Paladin is more popular than other specs but it doesn't mean healers overall are popular. Tigore did comment on it and his estimation and take on it sounded a lot closer to reality and in line with what I have also found than what you say.

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Tigore seems to be more on about 'Retail WOW', since he mentions 'Tank/Healer get instant queues'. I was on about Classic WOW, the re-release of older versions of the game (and specifically data about a server for Vanilla), which does not have queues at all, because it requires the players form a party in town and go to the dungeon entrance manually (a relic of older MMO design). And in that, the 'hybrid classes' (ie the ones that have a spec for healing, and a spec for damage) have been mathed out to be 'play this as a Healer, or you are literally griefing, that's how bad your DPS spec is' because Blizzard hadn't really worked out 'class balance' at that point. So if someone picks Shaman/Paladin/Priest/Druid, it's a pretty safe bet that they're intending to play it as a Healer. Thus, the dataset I saw which said that 'Shamans (90%+ of which are going to be played as a Healer) are played as much as Hunter (one of the most popular specs in WOW because you get to have a cute pet ally)' is quite interesting to me, as I'd never have expected such a result to occur

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

The main difference is that the devs listened to what the majority said, and you ain't in that category for sure, even if some might share your sentiment.

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I guess it’s easy to say the majority is always right when you can retroactively go “good feedback is from the majority, bad feedback is from the minority”

It’s like people who decide whether a game is “woke” or not based on if it was successful after the fact

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I guess it’s easy to say the majority is always right when you can retroactively go “good feedback is from the majority, bad feedback is from the minority”

It’s like people who decide whether a game is “woke” or not based on if it was successful after the fact

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It's impossible to argue with someone who thinks the decisions made by the devs are always the will of the majority.

In a way, it is more applicable to retail WoW for the dungeon roulette function. I can comment a bit before the game had that feature. I still remembered not having dungeon roulette at the start of the 2nd expansion Wrath of the Lich King. Probably the first time I remember using it would be the 5 man dungeons created alongside the final Lich King raid. There was a big mix of opinions whether the new feature was good or not. It can be viewed as a boon for getting into a dungeon almost anytime you wanted throughout the day rather than spamming Trade chat for hours. Since you will have some tanks and healers dropping group after waiting so long. On the other hand, some of the guild players didn't want to touch it with a 10 foot pole since they believed the cross server grouping killed any sense of community and accountability for the players.

The latter opinion may seem to make the most sense, but remember that not all tank or healer players are paragons. The bad apples may not have been noticed as much because some of us are often already occupying the tank or healer slot in the 4 / 5 man groups. We would have to queue the other roles or try out the 24 man LFR raid to actually see them. I have met with a few innocently stubborn and insufferable players from both tanks and healers from my time over there. I could give more details of why, but it would be quite the essay for some example stories. I will just say it was definitely regarded as a better option for devs to implement dungeon finders. Just to make sure the casual players aren't locked out of content from funny work hours.

Also with the role parity debate, it could very well favor the point of changing the healer DPS rotations back to resemble a Stormblood type of spell list. Since the healers having the lowest personal damage and worst soloing style would likely factor in more to drive the popularity down. Making it too boring to play would just make it worse with a 3rd factor. I could have sworn that the Warcraft forums had players suggesting they potentially bump their 5 man parties to 6 man with an extra DPS. Whether that would have worked or not I don't know since it still remained 5 man for many expansions. It would require increasing the enemy HP pools of all dungeons changed as a negative for sure.

Tbh, even in WoW, my favorite periods for playing healers were ones in which they could skill-expressively put out decent value beyond just their sustain (healing/shields/%DR)...

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I gues8s it’s easy to say the majority is always right when you can retroactively go “good feedback is from the majority, bad feedback is from the minority”
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It’s like people who decide whether a game is “woke” or not based on if it was successful after the fact

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I never said they are bad, you are twisting things yet again to fit your narrative.

It makes absolutely no sense to listen to the minority from a business standpoint. Why would you want to appeal to 0.0025% of the player base instead of the rest? At the end of the day, SE is still a business. they can make these updates and content thanks to the majority.

The thing that I find extremely annoying in this discussion is the absolute entitlement some people have. Like, sit the F down

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

I never said they are bad, you are twisting things yet again to fit your narrative.

It makes absolutely no sense to listen to the minority from a business standpoint. Why would you want to appeal to 0.0025% of the player base instead of the rest? At the end of the day, SE is still a business. they can make these updates and content thanks to the majority.

The thing that I find extremely annoying in this discussion is the absolute entitlement some people have. Like, sit the F down

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You say as you have literally zero evidence you are the majority other than the fact that it’s your opinion nor do you have any evidence that what we are suggesting would be Hated by everyone who isn’t us and therefore it’s your assumed minority vs everyone else. In a discussion on the state of healers 95% (generic number meaning vast majority) of players don’t care either way, you can’t assume they would say no in order to induce inertia, that’s just stupid

You act like we are entitled while taking your own opinion as the default “assumed developer” opinion so therefore it can’t be wrong

Introspection is hard apparently

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

As for WoW healers being incredibly popular, a dozen recent posts and data contradict your claim. Perhaps the healing spec of the Paladin is more popular than other specs but it doesn't mean healers overall are popular. Tigore did comment on it and his estimation and take on it sounded a lot closer to reality and in line with what I have also found than what you say.

I have a very basic understanding of WoW (I never really played it) and I had to do a bit of research on which specs are considered healing (lol) to see if the WoW player base claims/posts held any truth or if it was also skewed by personal perception as it is in some post in FF14 forums.

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a whole dozen??? thats CLEARLY a majority view then. I am impressed.. a dozen recent posts CLEARLY reject any data of WoW healers being more popular.

hate to point it out but... anything is going to be all "personal perception". as for WoW, in my experience, and I only have about 12 years of experience playing WoW, the healing there is is more rewarding. I didnt leave that game because of the healing, I left because of the company and the game direction. FFXIV, however, I dislike being treated like a turnip in order to play jobs I enjoy.

oh, my apologies, I didnt mean to call you a turnip for loving FFXIV healer design (nor did I mean to imply it)

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

You say as you have literally zero evidence you are the majority other than the fact that it’s your opinion nor do you have any evidence that what we are suggesting would be Hated by everyone who isn’t us and therefore it’s your assumed minority vs everyone else. In a discussion on the state of healers 95% (generic number meaning vast majority) of players don’t care either way, you can’t assume they would say no in order to induce inertia, that’s just stupid

You act like we are entitled while taking your own opinion as the default “assumed developer” opinion so therefore it can’t be wrong

Introspection is hard apparently

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Show me when I said I represent the majority? This only further proves how poorly you understand the stuff that you read. I am in fact representing even a smaller category because, in every single post where job design was the main subject, I said that the FF14 combat style is shit. It was always a sore point for me because I enjoyed action combat style. (TERA, Blade and Soul, Black Desert, Devil May Cry series). But I recognize that I am not the target audience and ff14 was NEVER a game that provided action combat for its fighting part.

It was my decision to play the game and my decision to stick with it. And while there are some aspects I don't like, I have other things that make up for it. Nobody forces me to play this game, and I bear the responsibility of it alone. I may come and say, I think this could improve and provide a solution for it but I never say "devs should listen to me because I have played this game for 14 years and I am entitled to be heard out".

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

Show me when I said I represent the majority? This only further proves how poorly you understand the stuff that you read. I am in fact representing even a smaller category because, in every single post where job design was the main subject, I said that the FF14 combat style is shit. It was always a sore point for me because I enjoyed action combat style. (TERA, Blade and Soul, Black Desert, Devil May Cry series). But I recognize that I am not the target audience and ff14 was NEVER a game that provided action combat for its fighting part.

It was my decision to play the game and my decision to stick with it. And while there are some aspects I don't like, I have other things that make up for it. Nobody forces me to play this game, and I bear the responsibility of it alone. I may come and say, I think this could improve and provide a solution for it but I never say "devs should listen to me because I have played this game for 14 years and I am entitled to be heard out".

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So your entire point is built on nothing considering nobody here believes that we are entitled to be heard out

For someone who claims other people don’t understand what they read you apparently don’t get that “I think the devs are stupid for keeping healers this way” is not demanding to be heard out, it’s voicing a grievance (somehow this is probably the fault of your weird hyper literal reading of every comment) the devs don’t have to read it (and given healer design direction they most assuredly won’t)

Considering your entire point seems to be “it’s your own personal responsibility to decide if playing this is worth it” you really seem intent on policing what other people do

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

So your entire point is built on nothing considering nobody here believes that we are entitled to be heard out

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Allow me to quote you

" As a healer main in this game for nigh on 14 years all I can say is that I’m tired. My role has been eroded of complexity and expression for 3 expansions. I’ve watched the tanks do my role for me for 2 expansions and my feedback and critiques continue to fall on deaf ears."

You were saying?

Just stop dude..lol

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

Allow me to quote you

" As a healer main in this game for nigh on 14 years all I can say is that I’m tired. My role has been eroded of complexity and expression for 3 expansions. I’ve watched the tanks do my role for me for 2 expansions and my feedback and critiques continue to fall on deaf ears."

You were saying?

Just stop dude..lol

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Yes “my feelings continue to fall on deaf ears” is a statement saying I’m not getting listened to and that’s why I’m leaving the role, it’s not a statement saying I demand to be listened to, that would be “I’m getting ignored and yoshi p needs to stop ignoring me”

I’m so glad I could teach this lesson, please come back any time you are interested in learning what phrases actually mean

I am impressed by your patience, Supersnow845, a true healer main at heart…

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Yes “my feelings continue to fall on deaf ears” is a statement saying I’m not getting listened to and that’s why I’m leaving the role, it’s not a statement saying I demand to be listened to, that would be “I’m getting ignored and yoshi p needs to stop ignoring me”

I’m so glad I could teach this lesson, please come back any time you are interested in learning what phrases actually mean

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you wrote my feedback not feelings, "my feedback and critiques continue to fall on deaf ears" What feelings are you talking about? Nor sure if this is sad or funny at this point.

@Kes13a

allow me since this is very hard for you to do : LINK

With Pictures : HERE, HERE -> taken from THIS site and of course THIS.

Please elaborate on your experience while you correlate with the data presented. I will be here waiting. I am waiting here how your "feelings" correlate with the data presented and how people are playing healers there because it's more "rewarding. (according to you anyway)

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Originally Posted by SongOfTheWind

I am impressed by your patience, Supersnow845, a true healer main at heart…

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It’s the same song & dance that many veterans had dealt with before for the last 5-8 years depending on where they draw the line. It certainly won’t be the last either lol. Ironically it’s more ‘engaging’ than actually pressing 111111111 in-game.

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Originally Posted by TheDustyOne

[…]If we want the healer population to grow, you first need to get people to find it fun; making it easy is only a short term solution. Word of mouth can do the rest.

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Anecdotally speaking, there’s simply no real benefit that I can say to people who seek to try it out other than “It’s fastest que rate” and “easiest to get comms” which made them frown why I have nothing else to add out of my main role. Friendo gave a try for a bit, find it fun for first few runs, then they quickly drop it few days after because “It’s boring.”

Imagine MSQ’ing as an AST… /shudder

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

you wrote my feedback not feelings, "my feedback and critiques continue to fall on deaf ears" What feelings are you talking about? Nor sure if this is sad or funny at this point.

@Kes13a

allow me since this is very hard for you to do : LINK

With Pictures : HERE, HERE -> taken from THIS site and of course THIS.

Please elaborate on your experience while you correlate with the data presented. I will be here waiting. I am waiting here how your "feelings" correlate with the data presented and how people are playing healers there because it's more "rewarding. (according to you anyway)

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Yes I’m really not sure if it’s sad or funny that me saying feedback or feelings literally doesn’t change the context of that sentence at all and yet you desperately trying to act like it does. I’m being ignored, they don’t have to listen to me, nor are they apparently listening to me, I’m still being ignored. This really isn’t hard to understand

Emboldening words doesn’t change a wrong point

Splitting hairs and playing semantics will not prove your point. Yes, all of the healer jobs are playable. No, they are not fun. Some agree with you, some with me. That's to be expected. Healers could have one healing and damage button and there still would be people who would like them. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be any criticism or suggestion on how to make them better.

The devs have said they read the forums and take suggestion, although the community has no idea if ideas on the forums are truly delivered to the devs at all. We also don't know who they are listening due to the changes to other jobs. You may not like the suggestions in this thread and that's fine. Because the healers are atm viable and playable, suggesting anything means almost nothing. If you are afraid the jobs will change substantially, lashing out to us who want change is foolish. As you said, why would the devs listen to us? Who are you fighting? If the critique and suggestions are not heard, best case scenario we stop playing healers as per the strike, worst we stop playing the game altogether.

It's getting to a point to where there are more and more videos that are starting to appear. Of course we have Rinon's video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTT5LGWt35k&t=503s

But we also have this one right here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGQ09bavgXY And it's really hard to find any videos praising dawntrial healing in particular.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

It's getting to a point to where there are more and more videos that are starting to appear. Of course we have Rinon's video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTT5LGWt35k&t=503s

But we also have this one right here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGQ09bavgXY And it's really hard to find any videos praising Dawn Trail healing in particular.

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Chris's "Honest Rant About Healing..." is right on the mark. It sums up everything quite nicely.

He's gained a subscriber and not just because I agree with him about healing. He really lays out the facts in a calm, easy to follow manner.

There really isn’t anything to praise on DT’s healing because all the new damage moves prove is they CAN they just won’t for some reason so they played it so safe as to just feel like blue balling than actual improvement

Take baneful impaction, change it from proccing off chain to proccing off aetherflow, make it a GCD with a slightly higher potency to compensate then have it if you apply baneful to an enemy with biolysis on it then all surrounding enemies get baneful and biolysis so it still sorta fulfils the bane angle

It’s still not great but it’s already 10* better than the current design and I barely changed anything

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Take baneful impaction, change it from proccing off chain to proccing off aetherflow, make it a GCD with a slightly higher potency to compensate then have it if you apply baneful to an enemy with biolysis on it then all surrounding enemies get baneful and biolysis so it still sorta fulfils the bane angle

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Personally, I'd take Baneful Impaction and change it into a 5s cast GCD spell and you can get an instant cast proc from using Aetherflow. So then you'd be able to use it more often, it would be a minor gain over Broil and you'd have to consider if you're safe to stand there for 5s to cast it.

Another benefit of decoupling Baneful Impaction from Chain is the event should you are paired with dupe SCHs in 8-24 man contents. We went from "I forgot to press chain the entire fight" to "oops let's just overwrite one another heheh". I honestly know not which one is better, but what I know for sure is neither of them feels great.

Their obsession to consider 8-man savage/ultimate and nothing else is really tiresome to watch. There are also players outside those content, yanno SE?

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Another benefit of decoupling Baneful Impaction from Chain is the event should you are paired with dupe SCHs in 8-24 man contents. We went from "I forgot to press chain the entire fight" to "oops let's just overwrite one another heheh". I honestly know not which one is better, but what I know for sure is neither of them feels great.

Their obsession to consider 8-man savage/ultimate and nothing else is really tiresome to watch. There are also players outside those content, yanno SE?

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This is very much something I dislike with the recent decision to add a bunch of follow-up oGCDs to the raid buffs.

I was playing RDM several weeks back in Jeuno and got a party nearly full of RDM. We somehow managed to co-ordinate (most of the time) with staggering Embolden, but that does come with the cost of delaying the follow-up attack, losing a use of it in any given fight. Thinking about duplicate jobs in alliance that rely on debuffs like SCH makes that idea far worse, because now you're effectively throwing away an alliance buff to try and stay in line with your parties buffs. Before it didn't matter, you just co-ordinate and try to get your buffs to not overlap, now it comes with a loss that just feels bad if you can actually co-ordinate your raid buffs.

Also they're just filler for fillers sake, they don't add anything meaningful to the rotation besides "big number every 2 minutes".

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Another benefit of decoupling Baneful Impaction from Chain is the event should you are paired with dupe SCHs in 8-24 man contents. We went from "I forgot to press chain the entire fight" to "oops let's just overwrite one another heheh". I honestly know not which one is better, but what I know for sure is neither of them feels great.

Their obsession to consider 8-man savage/ultimate and nothing else is really tiresome to watch. There are also players outside those content, yanno SE?

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With how the community acts with numbers and rankings, it gets even worse.

Let's take the chaotic raid for example. Taking into account that there's 24 people hitting into buffs, and Chain lasts 20s, so that's about 8 GCDs under the buff multiplied by 24 people. If you get a SCH in 2 alliances and one chooses to delay their Chain by 1 minute, that's an overall gain......BUT the SCH who chooses to delay will see their numbers suffer, because there's less big hits placed under their buff at 1 minute in and they didn't put their big 2 minute hit under full alignment as well. This leads to people just overwriting each other every 2 minutes for the better personal numbers even though it leads to less party damage overall.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

With how the community acts with numbers and rankings, it gets even worse.

Let's take the chaotic raid for example. Taking into account that there's 24 people hitting into buffs, and Chain lasts 20s, so that's about 8 GCDs under the buff multiplied by 24 people. If you get a SCH in 2 alliances and one chooses to delay their Chain by 1 minute, that's an overall gain......BUT the SCH who chooses to delay will see their numbers suffer, because there's less big hits placed under their buff at 1 minute in and they didn't put their big 2 minute hit under full alignment as well. This leads to people just overwriting each other every 2 minutes for the better personal numbers even though it leads to less party damage overall.

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Today kids we are learning about the prisoner dilemma as represented by SCH buffs in a chaotic raid

Amazing design squenix

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Originally Posted by TheDustyOne

This is very much something I dislike with the recent decision to add a bunch of follow-up oGCDs to the raid buffs.

I was playing RDM several weeks back in Jeuno and got a party nearly full of RDM. We somehow managed to co-ordinate (most of the time) with staggering Embolden, but that does come with the cost of delaying the follow-up attack, losing a use of it in any given fight. Thinking about duplicate jobs in alliance that rely on debuffs like SCH makes that idea far worse, because now you're effectively throwing away an alliance buff to try and stay in line with your parties buffs. Before it didn't matter, you just co-ordinate and try to get your buffs to not overlap, now it comes with a loss that just feels bad if you can actually co-ordinate your raid buffs.

Also they're just filler for fillers sake, they don't add anything meaningful to the rotation besides "big number every 2 minutes".

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You'd think if their grand idea of DT job design means "lots and lots of follow up oGCDs", they could've at least pick the ones that make sense. But then we got things like:

• Temperance => Divine Caress. Why? Why not things like Plenary Indulgence?
• PoM => Glare IV. Why? Why not Assize?
• Chain Stratagem => Baneful Impaction. Why? Why not Aetherflow?
• Divination => Oracle. Why? And on personal note, is Oracle really thematic for AST?
• Many more, IIRC SMN's Searing Light => Searing Flash, too?

Can't think much else at the moment, but again, shows how uneven the amount of thought they've given to the jobs in general.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

You'd think if their grand idea of DT job design means "lots and lots of follow up oGCDs", they could've at least pick the ones that make sense. But then we got things like:

• Temperance => Divine Caress. Why? Why not things like Plenary Indulgence?
• PoM => Glare IV. Why? Why not Assize?
• Chain Stratagem => Baneful Impaction. Why? Why not Aetherflow?
• Many more, IIRC SMN's Searing Light => Searing Flash, too?

Can't think much else at the moment, but again, shows how uneven the amount of thought they've given to the jobs in general.

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I think it's possible that their thought process is:

People use big hits under buff alignment > Big hits belong under buffs > Why not put a big hit as a follow-up to buffs?

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I think it's possible that their thought process is:

People use big hits under buff alignment > Big hits belong under buffs > Why not put a big hit as a follow-up to buffs?

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If that’s the case, then the overwrite-able (de)buffs should be the last one they’d consider. This is how I came to a conclusion that they never consider anything that’s not 8-man savage/ult when they make these sort of decisions.

Aside from questionable pick, my other problem with these new follow-ups is the fact they are pressed so little amount of times or condensed to one specific type of period in a fight.

It seems like they looked at follow ups that actually worked or flow with the rotation and decided that worked for every skill when it didn’t

An example is star prism as a follow up to starry muse which does work as a follow up because it also functions as one of the 5 spells you put under hyperphantasia to proc rainbow bright. The VPR skill that procs a second reawakening (serpents offering?) also giving a rattling coil stack I’d argue is another

It seems like there are jobs that they did make it work so they haphazardly stuck it on every job without really understanding why it worked on the jobs that it did work on

really just adds to the notion that healers are an afterthought

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

You'd think if their grand idea of DT job design means "lots and lots of follow up oGCDs", they could've at least pick the ones that make sense. But then we got things like:[LIST]
Temperance => Divine Caress. Why? Why not things like Plenary Indulgence?
PoM => Glare IV. Why? Why not Assize?
Chain Stratagem => Baneful Impaction. Why? Why not Aetherflow?
Divination => Oracle. Why? And on personal note, is Oracle really thematic for AST?

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Because their DT job design idea is not 'lots of followup OGCDs' when it comes to Healers, it's 'give them one more damage button, but only to use in the 2min window so it has almost zero impact on the overall rotation'. WHM's isn't even an OGCD (Glare4)

Div>Oracle is a particularly egregious offender. 'We have removed the RNG from the cards, because it didn't feel good to players that they might draw the 'wrong' card in their burst window. Players will suffer their quota of bad RNG via a system they cannot control (whether Oracle crits or not), instead of the one they had some influence over (redrawing/spreading/MA'ing cards)'

If they want to 'fix' Oracle, they could make it hit 12 times (cos it invokes symbolism of the Twelve), that way the DHit/Crit chance is smoothed out across the hits instead of the 'all or nothing' it currently is

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

allow me since this is very hard for you to do : LINK

With Pictures : HERE, HERE -> taken from THIS site and of course THIS.

Please elaborate on your experience while you correlate with the data presented. I will be here waiting. I am waiting here how your "feelings" correlate with the data presented and how people are playing healers there because it's more "rewarding. (according to you anyway)

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Not them (or maybe I am, we're all alts of each other apparently), but A: again you're on about Retail WOW, and I was using Vanilla/Classic as an example, B: some of those links are just things like 'what is the ratio of healers to tanks google' which gives you the answer 'it's 1 Tank, 1 Healer, 3 DPS for a dungeon party' which... has already been mentioned in the thread and doesn't really prove anything, C: only the youtube video actually breaks down the data by SPEC, the others just say 'what class', and when you have the ever-popular Retribution Paladin (DPS) being logged as the same 'class' data as the not-so-played Holy Paladin (Healer), it messes the stats up. Especially for Druid, as they have FOUR specs (Caster, Melee, Tank, Healer)

Lastly, D: Here's some stats for my point about Classic. From about 2 months ago, a reddit post with some census addon data (Aliiance side):

https://i.redd.it/5vqj7p56z14e1.png

From left to right for classes, you have:
Warrior (Tank/DPS, both work very well)
Paladin (Tank/Healer/DPS, but playing any spec but Healer is 'meme tier' so most picking it will be Healer. Brings 5min duration buffs called 'Blessings', such as increasing attack power, increasing MP regen, or decreasing threat generated)
Hunter (3 DPS specs, gets a pet companion, very popular)
Rogue (3 DPS specs, star of many Warcraft AMVs back in the day due to being able to 100-0 someone in PVP before they can even get out of CC)
Priest (2 Healer specs and one DPS, will be played as a Healer mainly due to Shadow being 'meme tier' damage (though some raids run one Shadow just for the raidbuff it brings))
Mage (3 DPS specs, the best goldfarming class and one of the fastest at levelling, always popular)
Warlock (3 DPS specs, not as popular as Mage, but it can summon allies to their location with Ritual of Summoning, and in a game where you have to run to the dungeon entrance to enter it, that's pretty neat)
Druid (Tank+DPS/Healer/DPS specs, the Tank/DPS spec is a 2-in-1 and isn't completely terrible but most raids prefer to just have 2 Warriors as the tanks. The pure DPS spec goes OOM faster than a RDM on res duty, so it's a meme. The Healer spec is also a bit of a meme (due to being HOT focused, but the HOTs don't stack with other Druids unless you use different spell ranks), but it's the most functional of the three)

And the Horde side from that same server:

https://i.gyazo.com/3eb485d4e579c791...9cfb4b1526.png

Again, from left to right:
Warrior (Tank/DPS, both work very well)
Hunter (3 DPS specs, gets a pet companion, very popular)
Rogue (3 DPS specs, star of many Warcraft AMVs back in the day due to being able to 100-0 someone in PVP before they can even get out of CC)
Priest (2 Healer specs and one DPS, will be played as a Healer mainly due to Shadow being 'meme tier' damage (though some raids run one Shadow just for the raidbuff it brings))
Shaman (2DPS specs and 1 Healer, mainly played as Healer due to its incredible throughput AOE healing via 'Chain Heal'. Brings 2min duration AOE buffs via Totems, such as increasing stats, decreasing threat generation, or auto-cleansing debuffs)
Mage (3 DPS specs, the best goldfarming class and one of the fastest at levelling, always popular)
Warlock (3 DPS specs, not as popular as Mage, but it can summon allies to their location with Ritual of Summoning, and in a game where you have to run to the dungeon entrance to enter it, that's pretty neat)
Druid (Tank+DPS/Healer/DPS specs, the Tank/DPS spec is a 2-in-1 and isn't completely terrible but most raids prefer to just have 2 Warriors as the tanks. The pure DPS spec goes OOM faster than a RDM on res duty, so it's a meme)

And why not, here's a different site's chart for the server, with both factions combined:

https://i.gyazo.com/082d7aec5ca8bf0e...205e69f23c.png

If we then assume that the majority of Druid/Paladin/Shaman/Priest players are playing that class as a Healer, and that every Warrior is a tank (god I wish), the roles would stack up like this:

https://i.gyazo.com/6234dcc093cbb4fc...b1a11811c7.png

Even if we took an estimate of, say, 50% of Warriors are playing DPS Warrior only and absolutely refuse to Tank (it's probably closer to 75% that refuse to tank but let's be generous for the example), and that about 25% of each of the Healer spec players are playing their scuffed 'meme tier' specs for whatever reason (eg Boomkin, Ret Paladin, etc.), then the Tank column is still vastly lower than the Healer one. There's no Healer population issue in that particular MMO.

Of course, it's a recreation of a 20+year old version of the game and has been mathed out almost completely, such that we now know that 'Shadow Priest has horrid MP issues, if you pick Priest you should expect to be playing as Holy and Healing at endgame', so I imagine that the example doesn't count in your mind

edit: looking at one of your links again:

https://i.gyazo.com/020f0b29d296c2d0...085a6156f3.png

And in the video you linked (with the spreadsheet), I went through and added up the %s for the specs in each role, and got Tanks at 16.12% total, and Healers at 21.74% total. Bearing in mind that Tanks and Healers occupy one slot in the dungeon group of 5 for the content the data was pulled from (Mythic+), the ideal result is that those two roles make up approximately 20% each. So Healer, according to the data for that content, in that particular Season, was overperforming in pickrate slightly.

Also, these two things in the edit are referring to actual Retail WOW, not Classic. Please proofread your citations because they damage whatever argument you thought you were making

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

If that’s the case, then the overwrite-able (de)buffs should be the last one they’d consider. This is how I came to a conclusion that they never consider anything that’s not 8-man savage/ult when they make these sort of decisions.

Aside from questionable pick, my other problem with these new follow-ups is the fact they are pressed so little amount of times or condensed to one specific type of period in a fight.

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And let's nkt forget that in the 7.0 patch note explanation, they added " to increase attack variation, we added the lvl 92 big hits." That itself is an issue with it since especially glare 4 is the only one thatsan gcd while the others are ogcds and psyche only has a 1 minute cd.

Playing through Dawntrail MSQ again to level an alt character, and I couldn't help but notice that, when playing as a DPS for the 93 Dungeon (the mountain one), Alisaie takes on the Healer duties there (despite Krile being present, and still presumably knowing how to be a White Mage?). Anyway, as a Healer-RDM, Alisaie keeps the team alive with Vercure, Vercure 3, and VerMedica2. That's all she needs, to cover the required healing for the dungeon. Beyond that, when healing isn't required, she's able to use the Ver-magics to attack (Fire/Stone/Aero/Thunder), and still has access to the melee combo finisher/gauge spender.

So my question, I guess, is: Why can't I play as a Healer with that kind of 'healing action:damage action' kit balance/ratio, if the Trusts (which are designed to be far more simple in what they do, so as to be more 'predictable' in their output) are apparently capable of it?

In recent weeks I’ve noticed the resurgence of what I’m gonna term “the WHM problem” (yes I hate WHM how can you tell) in which an extremely large subset of the playerbase when referring to healers either positively or negatively point to a feeling of “power” or “strength” with WHM.

I’m sure you know the comments I’m referring to- the “it has so many HUGE heals” and “the blood lily just feels so satisfying” despite by every healing metric possible WHM is the absolute worst healer and people find it “easy” because playing it literally forces your cohealer to work harder to compensate for how useless WHM is.

When you have such a disconnection between people’s perception of the power of a healer and its actual relevance what incentive does square have to actually make the other healers unique and powerful; I mean SCH’s healing kit is already 80% of the way there on the “interesting and powerful front” and yet people still think playing “it goes in the square hole” “solving” every mechanic with rapture while the shield healer is running around in a panic trying to do both healers jobs at the same time is the definition of “powerful”

I’m becoming more and more convinced (similar to right back in SB) that nothing will change with healing design until something manages to pull back the curtain for these average players and shows them how garbage WHM actually is or the reverse where fight design changes so that WHM stands on its own two feet and all healers move forward together rather than the current design of WHM being an enforced burden on the shield healers who’s crying wishing for an AST or the other shield healer

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

[...]I’m becoming more and more convinced (similar to right back in SB) that nothing will change with healing design until something manages to pull back the curtain for these average players and shows them how garbage WHM actually is or the reverse where fight design changes so that WHM stands on its own two feet and all healers move forward together rather than the current design of WHM being an enforced burden on the shield healers who’s crying wishing for an AST or the other shield healer

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In a similar vein, I too think that healer design will never change until they actually improve WHM instead of sentencing the job into the "for stupids"-box (something that I vehemently despise). And because WHM aren't allowed to grow, so too the other 3 because the disparity would be way too noticeable to common eyes.

To this day I'll never get why of all choices to make healers better from StB to ShB---instead of pushing WHM to stand proudly next to their SCH and AST siblings, they decided to butcher the rest down to WHM degree and sh!t never recovers since then.

Ig it kinda make sense in a way that it lessens their work because this means they're only required to make 1 job for an entire role? lmao

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

In recent weeks I’ve noticed the resurgence of what I’m gonna term “the WHM problem” (yes I hate WHM how can you tell) in which an extremely large subset of the playerbase when referring to healers either positively or negatively point to a feeling of “power” or “strength” with WHM.

I’m sure you know the comments I’m referring to- the “it has so many HUGE heals” and “the blood lily just feels so satisfying” despite by every healing metric possible WHM is the absolute worst healer and people find it “easy” because playing it literally forces your cohealer to work harder to compensate for how useless WHM is.

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If such players are motivated more by 'feeling' rather than the numbers behind the job's performance (eg how SGE/SCH have more 'effective HPS' in all content due to having so much more mitigation), then the solution in my mind is simple: rather than trying to convince the players who don't care for/understand the numbers, using numbers, convince them that the update will be fun for them via appealing to their 'feeling' of the job.

For example, take a suggestion I keep repeating:

- Dealing damage or using healing spells generates Gauge (a 0-100 gauge). Healing spells build it far faster.
- Spend 50 Gauge on a strong AOE healing action, which also gives you 3 buffs to your job gauge (I use the term 'Petals'), one for Earth, one for Water, one for Wind.
- With the relevant elemental Petal in your gauge, Stone/Glare upgrade to Quake, Aero/Dia to Tornado, and Water/Banish to Flood. These are AOE (so you can AOE DOT with Tornado, for example), and 'refund' the damage lost by using the healing GCD.

A player who cares about the numbers, will see this idea and say 'ah so I can use a damage neutral heal, and I can build up to it by doing damage. Furthermore, there's a refund attached which can be deployed at a later time compared to when the healing action is used (by a couple of GCDs, you won't want to delay 'pressing Glare' by much), and so I could theoretically use the healing action one GCD before the raidbuff window, then place the refund actions within the burst window for more damage (in the same way that we prepare a Misery outside of raidbuffs, then spend it inside as an optimization)'. Then, that leads to 'can I wrangle my healing rotation in such a way that I can do both, and get Quake, Flood, Tornado AND Misery into the raidbuff window?'

But for a casual player who 'just wants to play the game', what they see from an update like this is cool visual effects, the vaunted 'HUGE heals' that WHM is known for, and the feeling of 'power' as they obliterate dungeon trash packs with Quake/Flood/Tornado, because the animations are so meaty/'impactful'. They'd get to be told by the lore of the game that 'WHM almost ended the world, via their participation in the War of the Magi', and then also get to feel that power, and use that power

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

(despite Krile being present, and still presumably knowing how to be a White Mage?).

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iirc she does state her conjury's not nearly as good enough to do it, so I'd imagine she's still only around lv70. CNJ Y'shtola also doesn't have any free healing tools while her dps kit acts like she has some kind of gauge for powerful spells too.

It does make me think that's the healer design they want to go with, but are way too afraid of offending someone to actually do it. The JP boards still get complaints from players who run into dps-chasing SCHs wasting every aetherflow they get on Energy Drain (which I think is a condition that got worse from the 1.5s broil), and whenever I try to bring up dpsing in there, I get shot down because it's assumed hard content will be balanced to require them to fully use that dps kit.

The big of course is how long fights are structured like this, they all will inevitably become stale. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=498577154

Now when you go to the one website, now the values may be a bit different but it's still the same idea.

Edit: Not really that important per say, but it is hilarious that Alisaie has more healer duty supports than Urianger.