How to Dragoon per Second: A DPS Paradigm

The accuracy Cap is definitely in the 698 - 700 range, according to a few people I've spoken to.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

My opener calculations don't factor in autos, because I'm dumb, mostly. I always forget about them and how they're affected by buffs. I doubt it'll be much different than the other way of doing the buffs, since you'll still have the exact same amount of full-buff time, just slightly less B4B+BL overlap. The difference in gcd potency is close enough that

This is likely a good base set to work off of. http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/TQ6V

You'll wanna meld mostly Crit, but be sure to bump Accuracy up to ~650-660 to make sure you meet accuracy requirements for Sephirot. It's only around 650-ish, but nobody ever really cared enough to figure it out exactly, so I'd err on the safe side and go 660 or 650 with Flint Caviar to bump over 660.

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Thanks for that got everything so far minus belt and legs :D

Is it better to look at gearing for frontal accuracy or flank accuracy in Midas Savage as melee?

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Is it better to look at gearing for frontal accuracy or flank accuracy in Midas Savage as melee?

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I'd say front, there are a lot of times when you have to hit the boss from the front (A5S/A6S stack share dmg, and likely in A7S/A8S as well, though I haven't been there yet).

A5S there's a stack buster where he faces you, and if you get picked for a dash, you'll get a GCD on his face when he hits you.
A6S Blaster dash dodges sometime necessitate front punches to not die and keep dps up, Brawler has a stack mechanic where he faces the boss for a solid 2-3 gcds, Swindler snipers sometimes look at you, and Vortexer you stack at his front for water in some strats.
A7S I haven't seen yet, but I am /fairly/ sure you need front cap, at least for the part where you're trapped in a box and baiting aoes as a group.
A8S has all of the A6S adds again with the same mechanics (more or less) so it's highly likely you'll be hitting front there. But again, not there yet so /shrug.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

I'd say front, there are a lot of times when you have to hit the boss from the front (A5S/A6S stack share dmg, and likely in A7S/A8S as well, though I haven't been there yet).

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Originally Posted by JackFross

A5S there's a stack buster where he faces you, and if you get picked for a dash, you'll get a GCD on his face when he hits you.
A6S Blaster dash dodges sometime necessitate front punches to not die and keep dps up, Brawler has a stack mechanic where he faces the boss for a solid 2-3 gcds, Swindler snipers sometimes look at you, and Vortexer you stack at his front for water in some strats.
A7S I haven't seen yet, but I am /fairly/ sure you need front cap, at least for the part where you're trapped in a box and baiting aoes as a group.
A8S has all of the A6S adds again with the same mechanics (more or less) so it's highly likely you'll be hitting front there. But again, not there yet so /shrug.

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Thanks both for the information. It does appear that in those sections of the fight it is difficult to perform the mechanics and maintain positionals. It does not appear that any small amount of secondaries traded to meet Flank VS Frontal accuracy would be worth losing a mid combo rotation on a melee class given bad RNG.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

A7S I haven't seen yet, but I am /fairly/ sure you need front cap, at least for the part where you're trapped in a box and baiting aoes as a group.

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The hammers don't target the MT, so you should be able to hit the flanks at least, but I'm pretty sure everything during jail is frontal.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

The hammers don't target the MT, so you should be able to hit the flanks at least, but I'm pretty sure everything during jail is frontal.

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Good to know!
And my group is currently letting our NIN be the one to bait double drill on Brawler, so I'm really hoping they're not throwing me into jails. The DPS differential between the two of us is rather wide.
I'll never understand how a couple dropped GCDs for NIN is worse for the NIN than a dropped GCD and a potentially lost gsk is for me, but that's neither here nor there.


I just want to kill A6S at this point. My group's been at it ~23 hours according to raid leader, and we're currently struggling to finalize a good strategy for handling the second bait + fire lines + third pass.

Also re: Vortexer - my group does a triangle thing. First pass at N (A), second pass at SE (B), third pass at SW (C), and my group has been getting pissy with me for using SSD after water and before ice to hit a 4th hit before running back to drop ice if I get it, so I just now don't use gsk OR Phlebotomize in my opener so that I hit the 4th on the boss before he's dragged away (30s timer) then wait in my spot for ice marks, then DFD if I don't have one. I'm planning to SSD during the B4B there (I use a second b4b at the end of Swindler after snipers since we're still a bit off and I get the full duration of it) if I didn't get picked for the second water (since then I'd SSD back after the third thunder pass). I use Elusive to get to C after the second pass completes so I can be in position for the bait and everything. If I get first water, I Elusive at ~4-5s to be in position for Thunder.

My runs where I don't die see me hovering around 1550 in fflogs on the parse page (and napkin math told me that run would have been ~1430) - so basically, does this sound like an effective strategy to handle Vortexer the way my group is doing it? We haven't seen second rotation yet, but I'm hoping using DFD where I do will have it ready for where I'd normally SSD on the first set, but I'm pretty sure I'll end up having to run at some point, no matter what... Anyone have exact timings between passes? Like from 1>2>3>4>5>6?

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Originally Posted by JackFross

Good to know!
And my group is currently letting our NIN be the one to bait double drill on Brawler, so I'm really hoping they're not throwing me into jails. The DPS differential between the two of us is rather wide.
I'll never understand how a couple dropped GCDs for NIN is worse for the NIN than a dropped GCD and a potentially lost gsk is for me, but that's neither here nor there.

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Both melees can stay on the boss, if you position like this:

http://i.imgur.com/zoUmkrc.png

Just be sure to be at max melee range. MT disengages to north. Not sure if you can fit in more with careful positioning -- just the two gets pretty tight.

I'm just a noob who hasn't even gotten past Brawler yet (mostly wiping on Blaster still) but when we do get to try Brawler, it seems to work fine when positioning like in the above image and having both tanks stack on one of the melee at max melee range while the other melee moves in slightly closer. Haven't seen the stacked group get hit yet.

Second vortexer bait can be done by having everyone stack up immediately after the second water is passed. Location of the stack will vary, depending on where you put your first tornado. My group handles fire beams the same as A3S waves, except both tanks stack, to leave the first tornado spot empty. Third pass is after cyclone, so we stack near the middle ready to be pushed back to the correct spots.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

Just be sure to be at max melee range. MT disengages to north. Not sure if you can fit in more with careful positioning -- just the two gets pretty tight.

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That seems pretty doable, I'm just scared people would get hit haha;; Maybe something to try out with my group once we have the kill and are pushing to maximize. Pulling off barely impacts my dps - only the drill does anything noteworthy and I have it down to less than a gcd's loss with how I handle it atm, anyway.

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Originally Posted by Ash_Smokespear

I'm just a noob who hasn't even gotten past Brawler yet (mostly wiping on Blaster still) but when we do get to try Brawler, it seems to work fine when positioning like in the above image and having both tanks stack on one of the melee at max melee range while the other melee moves in slightly closer. Haven't seen the stacked group get hit yet.

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Originally Posted by Jinzhu

Inefficient to have the tanks get off the boss. Just stack 3 melee on one side and one on the other.

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This seems super dangerous to me. If the melee who's baiting is even a hair too close, you wipe the raid. It's something I'd consider suggesting we try out once the fight's dead. Just seems way too scary to risk wiping for a minor DPS gain.

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Originally Posted by DarkerOrange

Second vortexer bait can be done by having everyone stack up immediately after the second water is passed. Location of the stack will vary, depending on where you put your first tornado. My group handles fire beams the same as A3S waves, except both tanks stack, to leave the first tornado spot empty. Third pass is after cyclone, so we stack near the middle ready to be pushed back to the correct spots.

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This is a completely different strategy than the one my group is doing, and not a lick of this has anything to do with the Vortexer questions I asked. I was asking "how do people min-max Vortexer as Dragoon because of the copious time off the boss to properly handle mechanics" not "how does your group handle mechanics?" Thanks for taking the time to reply, though!

Oh well, ignore me then, must have misread your post. The strat for keeping all melee on the boss for double drill is legit though.

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Originally Posted by Jinzhu

What do you do?

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Currently, our timing for Blaster kills has my SSD come off cooldown at the second Attachment, and DFD comes off at the third one alongside B4B, I think. I forget which exact ones, but they both come up for one each, so I use them on those regardless what mechanic it is. They help to close the gap back if it's single drill though. I always have Elusive in my pocket for one that comes up outside of those times. We usually push before third Chakram (varies based on how much of a dick he is to me with drill mechanics), so we only see like 4-5. I can cover 3 drills out of that.

Outside of that, I generally run out until a split second after he lands, when I gap close back in. Doing it that way, when he targets me, it's generally ~7k. I could probably cut it tighter, but I'd rather not die for marginal gains.

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Our SCH baits far so there is no risk whatsoever.

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I'm not talking about the far one. I'm talking about it seeming really risky to me to stack so close to the close one. Like yeah one group max melee, the other a bit in from that, but I feel the one person who's baiting has an incredibly tiny safe zone. Shifting just too far in or just too far out could cause a raid wipe by crushing 2-3 of the melee, including tanks. It just seems really risky for the gain it gives.

I could be wrong, though, since I've never tried it out to see for myself.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

That seems pretty doable, I'm just scared people would get hit haha;;

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If both melee's are on each side, 1 will hit either of them and the caster sitting right corner or left corner of entrance to define Healers/Ranged positions. This will minimize any risk of getting hit.

The tanks can return to the boss from northwards soon it's drilling in the ground, because "Latency".

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Originally Posted by JackFross

I just want to kill A6S at this point. My group's been at it ~23 hours according to raid leader, and we're currently struggling to finalize a good strategy for handling the second bait + fire lines + third pass.

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Fire Lines you need to make a compass direction to where each person goes, except for the 1st water placement. Both tanks face the Fire lines to where the 2nd Water placement goes to destroy it. Make it everyone's direction once you define, don't random it.

(Third Pass)

We have our frozen water at west nipple, Water group goes south, 1st water resist to east, 2nd water resist to South west to exchange thunder with the MT. 1st Water resist can jump right back in soon the exchange is complete, Ultra Flash follows 5 seconds later.

OT takes 1st thunder, passes it to MT, and MT passes to 1st or 2nd water resist.

GG thendiel. Ty for this.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

Fire Lines you need to make a compass direction to where each person goes, except for the 1st water placement. Both tanks face the Fire lines to where the 2nd Water placement goes to destroy it. Make it everyone's direction once you define, don't random it.

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If we keep having issues the way we're doing it, I'll be sure to suggest the idea of definite positions. Our tanks and healers already have one spot each where they stack (healers killing 2nd water twister, tanks on the opposite side of the boss as far N as possible) and then the DPS need to just spread on the fly in the remaining space.

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(Third Pass)

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I don't need and didn't ask for someone to overhaul my group's strategy. I asked about how other Dragoons time their movement abilities to work with the multiple passes in the fight to minimize downtime on the boss. I think I have it, though.

Brawler: Blow everything. Save DFD for the mirages as you need to get that 250*5 potency DFD.

Blaster: Elusive Jump for Rockets. Save SSD/DFD in case more rockets. Blow them both at sub 10% to force him to skip a mechanic, as you don't need them anymore.

Swindler: Save SSD, do not use in opener. If you're planning to manually AOE burn the adds, then the SSD would serve as a brilliant cap closer here. Elusive Jump gets bugged I've noticed because of the floors. I don't know why.

Vortexer: Same stuff here. Save all Jumps. Use SSD if you get the first compressed water or hailstorms. Use DFD/Elusive for second. SSD should be back up for the Ultra-Flash. Repeat like that.

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Originally Posted by MiniTyra

Brawler: Blow everything. Save DFD for the mirages as you need to get that 250*5 potency DFD.

Blaster: Elusive Jump for Rockets. Save SSD/DFD in case more rockets. Blow them both at sub 10% to force him to skip a mechanic, as you don't need them anymore.

Swindler: Save SSD, do not use in opener. If you're planning to manually AOE burn the adds, then the SSD would serve as a brilliant cap closer here. Elusive Jump gets bugged I've noticed because of the floors. I don't know why.

Vortexer: Same stuff here. Save all Jumps. Use SSD if you get the first compressed water or hailstorms. Use DFD/Elusive for second. SSD should be back up for the Ultra-Flash. Repeat like that.

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If you use SSD in the proper spot in the opener (right after phlebotomize) on Swindler, it'll be be back for the first time I personally need it - Sniper adds. I use it to gap close back between heights. I could PROBABLY use it before height, since I kill it fast enough, but I'd rather take the loss than potentially die and have weakness for Vortexer.

And for Vortexer, if I'm correct - you can get two DFDs in the fight. If you burn one at the start of the fight, it would be back and ready for the second second pass. So you could Elusive it the first time around and DFD the second time around and thereby pull off two shots of it in the fight, which you likely wouldn't be able to do if you hold it for the first minute of the encounter.

The rest of that I think I have down pretty well. I just need to start holding the SSD/DFD in Brawler, I suppose, though I like to get two in that encounter cycle - one early-ish on and another on the second set of orbs. I usually burn both Jumps much earlier because you'll end up getting 4-5 mechanics at most, and the odds of him doing 3 drills in a row is slim at best.

Mostly questions here - sort of asking if these ideas are legit or if I'm missing something.


OH and Battle Litany - I've been using 1 on pull, 1 during Brawler, then the next for Vortexer opener. Yay/nay?

Nah. You can still blow x2 SSDs on Brawler and be fine. Just use Elusive Jump for the first Rocket instead. As for Swindler, don't like SSD on that part, as if I manage to somehow kill the add before Height is triggered, the SSD might plop me into the wrong high/low, around Swindler.

As for DFD usage on Vortexer, I've never really thought about that.

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Originally Posted by MiniTyra

Nah. You can still blow x2 SSDs on Brawler and be fine. Just use Elusive Jump for the first Rocket instead. As for Swindler, don't like SSD on that part, as if I manage to somehow kill the add before Height is triggered, the SSD might plop me into the wrong high/low, around Swindler.

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In that case, I run back toward Swindler, dodging in a weave to maintain my height so I don't blow it and then SSD when it completes. You actually have a solid few seconds to move if you kill it fast enough (even at the start of the Height cast) so you can theoretically make it safely, due to SSD's short animation lock.

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Originally Posted by Jinzhu

That depends on DPS really. I only get 1 DFD during vortexer.

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Ah, fair enough.

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This also depends on DPS.

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Yeah, my group is currently "slow" (on track to kill, but Blaster dies at or just after the third dash drop and first push is 2-3s before it forces the push) so I don't run into TOO many issues. But we're in an awkward spot where Swindler dies at a really shitty time, so I almost need to not re-up Blood, which means I'll more than likely end up skipping my adds gsk to save it for the sniper or something.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

so I'm really hoping they're not throwing me into jails. The DPS differential between the two of us is rather wide.

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You may have to do a couple, drg is better imo cause burst. If the melee jail is the second set in p1 though our warrior takes it. Prefer not to have monk do it cause stacks and relying on crits to burst.. Our mch is able to if he saves ogcds.

Not come across a nin doing it yet though..anyone else?

Can confirm that. I'm the NIN for my group and I am priority 1 for purple. It honestly isn't a tough check. I don't even need to save CDs. IR is up at that point, so I use that, and a normal rotation + raiton and assassinate is more than enough.

If you were getting through most of A6S pre-nerf, then A7S will not give you any serious problems.

Yeah, NIN is just better in the purple cage if something can be done about it. It's the quicker ramp-up factor that does it. Once this week I didn't make the check at i230.

> tfw no crits

Yup, it's happened to me quite a few times as well. I have to hold every oCD, except for BFB, ensure I have BOTD already up and pre-use HT on the spawned Doll to guaranteeits death 100% of the time, even if I get very bad crt rng or just simply, bad rolls.

Only other way is to use a pointless BFB there, which could've been used on the boss instead :(

Huh. I have yet to have an issue killing my Alarum when I have to go in. We haven't gotten to second Jail set cleanly yet, and the one time we did I screwed up and didn't get in.

But like - there's ~1m before the first Jail and then another ~1m stretch on the boss before the next Jail. I just use BotD on the boss to start and then either re-cast for the Alarum or when the boss comes back down. Depending how the add phases go, you could miss loads of positionals, and the ARR rotation is better than the HW one if you miss every positional. Little dude dies too fast anyway. I'll usually re-up BotD for the Padlock if I'm out of the cage and then just won't re-cast it again before Zoomdoom, because I much prefer getting a fresh one when the boss comes back, rather than finagling with the adds.

Maybe I'm doing it wrong, though?

Being stuck on the fight for several weeks (staffing issues!) will give you some quality time with those guys in potentially a variety of cooldown situations. I don't see it being much of an issue if I had, say, the i240 weapon.

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Originally Posted by RachaelMarie22

You may have to do a couple, drg is better imo cause burst. If the melee jail is the second set in p1 though our warrior takes it.

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I mean sure if you hold onto your cooldowns, but that's no fun.

Oh god and poor BoTD stack timings getting shredded getting carried around into that cage f that!

If you're getting sent into the Alarum Towers, as long as your GCDs are consistent, you should always be able to finish off your CT/FT combos and land your 4th on either Quickthinx or one of the Dolls. You don't have the bomb, so you can consistently keep attacking.

Also, as long as you're using your BOTD on CD, it should always be up for the Alarum Cages, regardless if it's on the first or second set.

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Originally Posted by MiniTyra

If you're getting sent into the Alarum Towers, as long as your GCDs are consistent, you should always be able to finish off your CT/FT combos and land your 4th on either Quickthinx or one of the Dolls. You don't have the bomb, so you can consistently keep attacking.

Also, as long as you're using your BOTD on CD, it should always be up for the Alarum Cages, regardless if it's on the first or second set.

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^ This is what I was saying, more or less. I also always have SSD to use after (during if I'm outside) Jails, and DFD is up for the second Jail in the first set. I usually burn it on my Alarum if I'm in the jail, since I won't need it elsewhere. I also have B4B back there and tend to use it so the Alarum dies in one combo and finish it with ID > SSD > Dis>CT>4th on Quickthinx. If the Alarum spawns anywhere other than the far-facing corner, I can do that with 0 dropped GCD time.

My group progressed to 48% tonight, and I learned that the second cage set is the NIN's job unless the NIN gets that bomb (I haven't seen it drop on a melee yet. Can it even do so?) so I'm in the clear. Things go well when I remember to pull off to drop my bombs. I have both timings down pretty well - first at the end of the spark cast bar (right after CT) and the second right after the beam bar (haven't seen it enough to have a static rotation there yet).

A7 doesn't seem too hard to optimize on DRG, really. The hardest part is heart phase, definitely. Jails aren't an issue.

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Originally Posted by Jinzhu

I know you didn't ask for tips but I thought these would help :P

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I didn't ask for tips, no, but I appreciate them all nonetheless, and I'm sure many others will, as well. I've been just like... trying to hold and then being like AHH BUT B4B IS READY so I slap it on a doll... I need to stop doing that, but I'm still learning mechanics and my dps partners tend to do basically no dps (one wipe had me at 75th and the rest at 8th percentile, with no deaths until the wipe to a sizzlespark) so I tend to overcompensate on dps-check mechanics.;;;

That said - you get that full second opener after FIRST jail set? or did you mean after the second? ..... - nevermind. You meant after the first 4 cages complete, if I wasn't picked for purple. Got it.

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Originally Posted by Jinzhu

Oops. I was referring the the very first set of cages since the add gets melted (even if it doesn't I feel like its better to save them) I hold power surge, jump, spineshatter, B4B, IR, and life surge for when he comes back down. This lets you get a full opener minus the dragonfire dive since I forgot about that bad boy lol. But yes you also get a third opener with DFD and Battle Litany after the first 4 even if you do get picked for purple.

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Ah. So then if you DO get picked, what all do you burn to kill the add? Does it differ for first or second jail?

2nd jail should never be an issue unless you are skipping a full set before the first ball phase. Been doing the prey jail raw for the past like 2 weeks without botd, jump/MS only ogcd and no combo prep.

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Originally Posted by Jinzhu

If the first jail is purple I do everything minus SSD since it's usually dead by then anyways and just use SSD to get back to the boss. If the 2nd set is purple I wouldn't do it since our WAR does it but if I were to do it I would do the same thing since everything should be coming off cooldown if you used them on the boss as soon as it came down for the 1st 2 cages besides B4B (which should have around 10 seconds left) and Battle Litany. Like I said our WAR does the 2nd cage so I haven't been able to really test that part out D:

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So I'm assuming this works out by the WAR using zerk on pull and then holding it if the first jail is tank jail so he can use it for the following purple, yes? Is there some benefit to doing it this way over putting a dps in, outside of boosting the melee dps players' numbers? It sounds like it might be a bit risky, throwing the WAR in there over a dps.

And - I wasn't saying it'd be an issue, just referencing the fact that you'd have everything to do a full opener on the boss after second jail, so curious how I should handle going into second jail - would it be optimal to hold and do a full opener (sans SSD for gap closing) after the jail or should I just start the opener on the add and then SSD to continue/finish the B4B on the boss with a CT, coupled with BL there to help the raid?.... I'll probably do it the second way.

Today, my Phlebotomize missed in A7S from the front. My accuracy is 687. I guess that 688 is the actual cap and 686 is a hair too low.

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Originally Posted by Jinzhu

- (Dependent on DPS I think) TTT4 the hearts and line up your Geirskoguls with the boss. (It should always be in range if not your tank is moving too far)

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IDC4 + Tick is better than TTT4.

I generally prime an Impulse Drive for the heart and hit them with Dis>CT>4th and then can usually get off another 3 or so GCDs before I get back to the boss, but my group dps is lower than average, so I'd assume the heart dies a lot faster for others.

Hello, I have a dragoon that is in my static and we don't really know why he is struggling in terms of DPS in A5S and in general.

I know absolutely nothing about how to DRG (i main ninja) and I know the forum community helps a lot in these situations :)

Here is a parse of a try we've done : http://www.fflogs.com/reports/Tb42tJ...pe=damage-done

Could you please tell me what he could improve ? And how ?

Thanks a lot for your help and have a great day !

He's screwing up almost constantly.
- His BotD and HT are falling off consistently.
- His cooldowns all sit for insanely long periods of time without being pressed.
- He has 7 gsk in a parse where he should have 17-20
- He uses 12/6/3 Jump/SSD/DFD in a fight where he could have 14/7/4
- 18 Leg Sweeps in the time he can use 21.
- 4 B4B / 3 IR where he could have 6 and 7.
- 5 PS / 4 LS in a fight where he could be doing 7 and 8.


Mainly, though:
- 84.25% uptime for HT (Should be 90%+)
- 65.27% uptime for BotD (Should be 90%+)
- 74% CT / 69% Dis / 61% Phleb - should all be 90%+.
- This is a graph of his TP consumption compared to mine in a kill of approximately the same length.


Basically, he's just not executing the rotation properly. At all. That's the main issue with his performance, much more than any micro-optimizations from cooldown usage. He needs to learn to keep his rotation flowing, since he's clearly struggling with this.

HT>ID>DE>CT>4th>PH>TT>VP>FT>4th>Repeat.

There's nowhere in the fight where this needs to be modified outside of here and there double-dotting Chimeras or skipping Phleb to keep Blood up if the boss needs to move in a dumb way.

I've taken into account what Sunny has said, along with some other Dragoons and I've been play testing 490SS. The bare minimum SS is 486... I must say, the oCD placements are insanely good. There should be a "proof of concept" video up on a dummy soon, but everything is achievable: x3 GK per BOTD, x2 GK BFBs, BFB Jumps, HT buffed every time. And this is without a Selene.

When you play around with encounter durations in a simulation, low SS can beat the recommended 600SS sets, depending on exactly how long the encounter lasts.