Bard - they broke my job

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Originally Posted by Cinicus

Sad times for brds indeed.....please SE give me my mobility back....

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You haven't lost your mobility. You just have to press a button to use it now. Anyone who truly believes they've "lost" their mobility, is just lazy.

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Originally Posted by Zophar

Your dps is slightly less potent while moving, but that doesn't mean you can't do it.

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And Black Mages are mobile because they have Scathe!

Sure, they're doing less damage while moving, but that doesn't mean they're not mobile!

Actually, while we're at it, what's up with these Dragoons thinking they have to be locked into melee range? They have Piercing Talon! Clearly they're far more mobile than they're acting.

And Ninjas have Throwing Dagger!

I mean, sure, it's a clear DPS loss, but that's irrelevant because they're mobile.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

And Black Mages are mobile because they have Scathe!

Sure, they're doing less damage while moving, but that doesn't mean they're not mobile!

Actually, while we're at it, what's up with these Dragoons thinking they have to be locked into melee range? They have Piercing Talon! Clearly they're far more mobile than they're acting.

And Ninjas have Throwing Dagger!

I mean, sure, it's a clear DPS loss, but that's irrelevant because they're mobile.

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Ok, first off, absolutely nothing you said invalidated my point.

Second, are you seriously comparing the loss of maybe, 10-15% dps to the difference between fire/bliz 4 and scathe? full dps combos to melee ranged attacks? You gonna compare indigestion to aids next?

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Originally Posted by Zophar

Ok, first off, absolutely nothing you said invalidated my point.

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well there is one thing you cant forget we cant drop the buff for 15 secs but point taken and not the real bard problem right now ^^

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Originally Posted by Zophar

Ok, first off, absolutely nothing you said invalidated my point.

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Actually...

When people say they "lost their mobility", they generally mean "I lost my ability to be mobile while doing 100% of my damage".

Pre-3.0, Bards could do 100% of their damage while being mobile. That's the mobility people want back.

Saying that you're mobile as long as you do less damage is a terrible argument. People don't want mobility for the cost of doing less damage, they want the mobility in addition to doing their full damage, like they had for 2 years.

Now maybe you can stop pretending "Shut up, you're mobile if you want to be weaker" is a good argument, hm?

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Originally Posted by yamochan

well there is one thing you cant forget we cant drop the buff for 15 secs but point taken and not the real bard problem right now ^^

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This is true, but occasions where you would need to drop the buff within 15 seconds of applying it are rare, and in those cases you're probably better off leaving it off for a little longer instead. It's all about knowing the fight and making the right choice for the right scenario. This is something a lot of people can't seem to get, or just don't want to.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Now maybe you can stop pretending "Shut up, you're mobile if you want to be weaker" is a good argument, hm?

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I will when I see an argument I deem better.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Actually...
When people say they "lost their mobility", they generally mean "I lost my ability to be mobile while doing 100% of my damage".

Pre-3.0, Bards could do 100% of their damage while being mobile. That's the mobility people want back.

Saying that you're mobile as long as you do less damage is a terrible argument. People don't want mobility for the cost of doing less damage, they want the mobility in addition to doing their full damage, like they had for 2 years.

Now maybe you can stop pretending "Shut up, you're mobile if you want to be weaker" is a good argument, hm?

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I've used this quote before but

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Players will never sacrifice performance (especially damage) for utility.

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No one is going to run around with WM off while doing way less than normal dps just for the utility of movement. We may switch it off occasionally, but those situations where it's worth it to do that are few and far between.

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Originally Posted by Zophar

I will when I see an argument I deem better.

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Then you'll keep making terrible arguments that don't even address the person's real complaint. Which I guess is fine, if you enjoy wasting your time like that. Although since you express irritation at seeing people want their mobility back, I'd think it would actually be in your own best interests to try to come up with an argument that might stop the complaints, rather than spouting the same thing that isn't changing anybody's mind.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

I'd think it would actually be in your own best interests to try to come up with an argument that might stop the complaints, rather than spouting the same thing that isn't changing anybody's mind.

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It's the internet. There's no such thing.

Hypothesis: Bard's now do LESS damage in HIGH mobility required fights.

In a situation where having WM on would do less damage than having it off, this does not necessarily mean you are doing more damage just better damage than with it on. It's still a DPS loss from an average fight. If that makes any sense.

You would have to have an extreme amount of downtime on melee DPS for this to balance properly as other classes have had their DPS increased due to the nature of their rotations we have nothing outside WM aside from SW ... which got nerfed to hell.

Essentially while WM is off you are a 2.55 Bard while other classes will always remain a 3.00 DPS.

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Originally Posted by Katchoo

Essentially while WM is off you are a 2.55 Bard while other classes will always remain a 3.00 DPS.

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Not as accurate as one would hope. With the changes to autoattack, barrage, ect., and the selection of level appropriate gear: Your weaker then a 2.4 brd. Your total DPS output will always be the same as any other dps who is 20-40 ilvls lower.

Alot of the brd gear is skill speed, and even if you were to mix and match the gear to get the 'right' stats, it would still do a little less damage since your auto attacks are nerfed due to the determination changes.

It is unfortunate that SE has decided to basically make two jobs (brd & mch) nearly identical, and magically at the same time make them obsolete in the content.

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Originally Posted by Deviant1

It is unfortunate that SE has decided to basically make two jobs (brd & mch) nearly identical, and magically at the same time make them obsolete in the content.

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And even better, give AST some MP/TP regen that they can spread around that won't negatively affect DPS.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

And even better, give AST some MP/TP regen that they can spread around that won't negatively affect DPS.

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I'm cool with that, more foe for blm. Less damage nerf for me.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

And even better, give AST some MP/TP regen that they can spread around that won't negatively affect DPS.

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AST still fails short of everything else though compared to WHM amd SCH when it comes to what actually matters; healing output.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

AST still fails short of everything else though compared to WHM amd SCH when it comes to what actually matters; healing output.

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And SE's answer to fix what actually matters to AST is giving them the one thing we were still desirable for.
Way to kick a man when he's down.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

AST still fails short of everything else though compared to WHM amd SCH when it comes to what actually matters; healing output.

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I wonder how much that will actually be relevant, going by the various assertions in certain threads that at least one of the healers in the raids is always having soooooo much downtime from healing that they can just DPS and therefore are practically an extra DPS. If they're already making it with 1.5 healers, will AST's shortcomings be outweighed by their ability to cover TP/MP regen so you don't need a Bard/MCH? Or how many buffs to AST will it take until that's the case?

I guess time will tell. After all, current top-end weapons have bumped the gap by another point of weapon damage for Bards.

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Originally Posted by Deviant1

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1. You are slightly weaker than 2.4 brd out of wm but you are not meant to have it off for super long
2. Secondaries are weighted very weakly right now as SE toned them down to plan around future stat inflation. Who cares about anything but acc and mainstat RN
3. Every alex PF I've seen today has a BRD/MCH slot
4. Alex 1 Savage went completely fine for me with my static and BRD either does more than enough in one fight or their songs are valuable. One or the other.
You people act like numbers are why anybody wants a BRD

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Originally Posted by aabe

You people act like numbers are why anybody wants a BRD

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Can I join your static and sit in the corner until you want ballad? =p

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

I'm cool with that, more foe for blm. Less damage nerf for me.

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no ur not cool with that cause no manasong means no bard in raids means again no foe for anyone

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

AST still fails short of everything else though compared to WHM amd SCH when it comes to what actually matters; healing output.

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not all fights are healing heavy encounters (ravana ex doesnt need much for example) bring the AST and buff the everloving shit out

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Originally Posted by aabe

4. Alex 1 Savage went completely fine for me with my static and BRD either does more than enough in one fight or their songs are valuable. One or the other.
You people act like numbers are why anybody wants a BRD

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send us some data of ur "more than enough" plz cause with that we can work and i dont belive in more than enoughs i belive in numbers

There's a funny thing about balancing utility with straight power: If you have both, you automatically become OP. Some players remember Ninjas before the nerfs? They had top-tier damage AND crazy utility in the form of Goad and Trick Attack. Why would you take other jobs when Ninjas had the best damage AND could stagger multiple Trick Attacks for everyone?

And this is why Bards are the way they are now, because if Bard mains have their cake and eat it too in terms of DPS output, they will be the only job in the game worth taking. I mean why would you bother with melees or even offensive casters if a ranged could bring literally all of the damage AND their utility songs?

If Bards and Machinists are getting kicked/denied spots from PUGs and statics simply for their choice of job, then generally speaking you don't want to associate with these people. Photos and videos of Alexander Savage world 1st progression groups clearly show at least 1 bard in their respective groups so obviously they cannot be bad. As far as meeting DPS checks are concerned, I had at least 1 Bard keep up with my i180 Ninja DPS in phase 3 of Bismarck EX which calls for LOTS of mobility with WM being notably off for most of it due to not wanting to die.

All that aside I still think the playstyle changes that happened to the bard really should've called for some kind of wider beta test at least to see how the community was gonna take it, and to iron out those early math kinks they screwed up.

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Originally Posted by Lunalo

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ok then you as a ninja are the perfect example u are melee and i know thats harder to play but u also bringt a 10% dmg boost thats up 2/3 of the time and the tp buff for 1 person but you dont get any bad things from that...

now bard brings a 10% macig armor reduce (not flat dmg boost, 20% with cd) and a mana/tp song that will not be used by all players only the heals/mana OR melees/tp for that we get a 20% dmg debuff so it would be balanced thx to the debuff IF we had the same base dps output as a ninja wich we just cant do if u play ur class right.
so our dmg boosts are about even and the support is balanced as well only thing thats different is our class dmg and thats were you shine while we fade into nothingless (the best bards performance was a 900 dps ravana ex kill, the nin inthat fight had 1.1k if i read correctly)
with WM we should have the same dps as anyone else but thats just not the case

A lot of my friends just quit the job. I am going to focus on crafting/gathering. Never was a fan of the combat, but bard made it pretty decent. Now I just don't like where the class is heading.

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Originally Posted by Lunalo

And this is why Bards are the way they are now, because if Bard mains have their cake and eat it too in terms of DPS output, they will be the only job in the game worth taking. I mean why would you bother with melees or even offensive casters if a ranged could bring literally all of the damage AND their utility songs?

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This is very very true BUT Bards damage balance was always around it's mobility not it's songs.

Imagen if Ninja had originally had a 15% damage reduction for the duration that Goad was up, would that have been a fair balance? hmm not sure but you get the picture.

Songs have their own balance system that is independent for the most part from the rest of the job. The reason they effect our damage output in the big picture is because they take up the space of where other jobs would usually have DPS skills. Which brings me to my next point.

I'm not saying i totally disagree with you, i am happy not to be top DPS, i enjoy brining utility to the group and i think many people who play Bard would agree. The problem was that once you started to stack Bard it became detrimental to the group.

SE philosophy for this and to try and change Bard has always been "you should not need specific Jobs to play content" but it's complete bullshit. You always take at least one melee DPS, you always take a WAR and PLD combo and always take a WHM and SCH combo. It's more efficient that way, sure you can do it fine with other combinations but was not optimal.

Why did Bard have to be changed in such a way? Surly it could have had it's damage scaled along with all the other jobs quite easily? Had it's complexity enhanced in line with other jobs by, off the top off my head, being even more DoT focused in line with SMN rather than trying to be some kind of BLM.

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Originally Posted by Katchoo

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im just adding to that. the BRD before 3.0 was a unique class like all the others now its just a weak BLM ripoff with a battery charger and no flow in his skills

I wish they would just go ahead and add ranger already...They are making brd/mch in ffxiv like drg was in FFXI, the lol job.

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Originally Posted by Lunalo

There's a funny thing about balancing utility with straight power: If you have both, you automatically become OP. Some players remember Ninjas before the nerfs? They had top-tier damage AND crazy utility in the form of Goad and Trick Attack. Why would you take other jobs when Ninjas had the best damage AND could stagger multiple Trick Attacks for everyone?

And this is why Bards are the way they are now, because if Bard mains have their cake and eat it too in terms of DPS output, they will be the only job in the game worth taking. I mean why would you bother with melees or even offensive casters if a ranged could bring literally all of the damage AND their utility songs?

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Kind of like that crit buff that drg the top dps has? =p Every class brings utility

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Originally Posted by Lunalo

if a ranged could bring literally all of the damage AND their utility songs?

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Because you wouldn't need more than one Ballad/Paeon and Bards can't buff each others' damage.

Bring a DRG and they're buffing the Bard's damage and their own while bringing their crit buff.

Bring a SMN and Bard buffs their damage as well as being the only DPS that can revive people.

Bring a NIN and they can buff tank damage and everyone's damage with TA.

I mean, I'd have thought that class synergy would be the obvious reason to not stack classes given equal damage output.

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Originally Posted by Lunalo

generally speaking you don't want to associate with these people.

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I'm sure that's little comfort to the people who spend 20 minutes in duty finder queue just to get kicked and have to start all over again.

They might have literally wasted 20 minutes, but hey, at least they're not in a group with a bunch of jerks, amirite?

For me it feels like Bard is currently only wanted if your group feels like they can't manage their MP/TP. While I agree that foes is a ok song it has no effect on over half the jobs in the game. As others have said Bard does NOT DPS or support well in its current state. My wish is for SE to decide what they want Bard to be as it's currently the only job that having more then 1 can result in a instant boot. Not to mention they added MCH to the mix too.

Again, not looking for DRG numbers but Bard should be a legit DPS when not singing and in WM. Or it should have support that DRG,NIN,etc can't rival.

Right now Bard isn't terribly behind many jobs with the current buffs. I parse with my drg friend, and even without disembowl, you can put up great numbers. The problem I see with Bard is the same problem I saw in them pre-3.0: once the party understands all mechanics, there's no reason to have a Bard (or Machinist, for that matter) in the group. Why? Because you don't need manasong, you have enough dps to usually surpass any TP issues (quicker phases means less TP consumed), and you can replace a ranged with a better ranged like Summoner. That's why I ALWAYS suggest to a hardcore, raiding Bard to level a secondary, as you're only holding your group back long term. It's a sad realization, but sometimes the truth hurts. :(

On another note, I do feel Bard and Machinist are in a good spot dps wise. What they really need is better long term support abilities, something to benefit optimization over security for the group.

I want to ask... how do some bard hit 1k+ dps obn Faust on Alex 1 savage? Last night I was attempting Faust with my static and we wipe at 20%. The team have both a blm and a smn so naturally i started off with Foe + BV. I was ilvl 183 using food but no dex pot. Some say my parse is around 850 ish and the rest of the dps are around 1k.

[QUOTE=AkashiXI;3171934] Right now Bard isn't terribly behind many jobs with the current buffs. I parse with my drg friend, and even without disembowl, you can put up great numbers. -snip-

Unless you consider doing 20-25% less damage to be "great numbers" your friend is not damaging up to his/her potential. Even if you don't do a bit of parsing, it only takes a few groups with 2 bards or machinists to realize that their DPS is more than just a little below the other jobs.

Let's do this experiment. Assume we're building a party for A1 savage. Assume everyone is between i185 and i189. Your first 2 members are bards. You can fill the rest of the party with anything you'd like. What are your odds of making it past the first boss?
Now let's do the experiment all over again, but this time replace the word bard wit ANY job other than bard or machinist. What are your odds of winning now?

You're right in that the damage numbers don't mean much. I'd be fine even if bard did half the damage of other jobs. The problem is that right now, unless the party has poor MP or TP management skills, bard is a burden to the party. I say this because if you replace that bard with ANY other DPS that is equally geared/skilled, your party will be better off.

If bard is ever going to be a job that is more than just something your friends let you play because they don't mind picking up your slack, they need to either boost the damage, or increase the usefulness of bard's utility features so that their benefit to the party offsets their lower damage.

@Xellos Think it depends on what you have in your group and how well you all coordinate everything. ie: NIN doing their debuff and DRG doing crit up at the right time will greatly up overall DPS.

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Originally Posted by yamochan

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I could if this wasn't the OF. I can PM you or e-mail or something if you'd like to know how BRD looks compared to other jobs in A1.


Also, what I was talking about with Floor 1, it's extremely healing heavy so Ballad is pretty useful. TP is not an issue due to downtimes.

TP is valuable in floor 2 because you need to kill shit fast and it's a trash race, AoE costs a lot of TP, etc.

In a few months when everyone is i200-i210? Yeah it's gonna be "oh you're running out of MP in floor 1 get gud" etc. but as long as progression/early progression exists BRD will be extremely valuable.

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Originally Posted by lordjoosie

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You pretty much agreed with everything I said, and you took the quoted part out of context. A Bard dealing 1.1k damage on average in Savage is great , but I agree that other dps do more damage and (situationally) bring more to the table than our support dps does. My Dragoon friend is hitting upwards of 1.4k on good runs, that's pretty exceptional. WITH disembowl, I can manage between 1.1 to 1.2 on a 3 min fight, depending on rng in my opener. So, once again, I think Bard is doomed in a raid setting in the long term (where you no longer need their songs), but they're fine in progression. My personal solution? Give us more optimization support tools, e.g Trick Attack, so we're always in a scenario where we can always speed up the win, not prolong it.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

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The thing is, DRG pads their DPS on Faust without realizing it. People say you need 7k party dps to clear faust, but it's realistically more like 6k, because DRG has aoe skills like DFD that they use as part of their rotation and geirskogul which both can hit the extra adds without removing any DPS from the group.

Realistically, MCH and BRD are the stars of burst and they are very even with melee in a 2-3 minute run. MNK gets the same padding from elixir wave, I can see a group clearing faust with 2BRD easily especially with a DRG.

Lol... we were kiting our adds, he did not hit anything else other than Faust. Is it that hard to believe melee dps can hit 1.4k already? Also, yes I always am first in burst dps, but melee sustain at a much higher arc than us.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

Lol... we were kiting our adds, he did not hit anything else other than Faust. Is it that hard to believe melee dps can hit 1.4k already? Also, yes I always am first in burst dps, but melee sustain at a much higher arc than us.

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They sustain at a higher arc but faust enrages in 2 and a half minutes. I get 1200 without disembowel so 1300 with is very realistic as well. 3 minutes is about when melee start to edge out but I'm just saying it's not really prohibitive to run 2 BRD for faust.

being awesome on progression and sucking afterwards is bad design, so once u are geared with the brd.....then reroll and regear ? or gear 2 chars at the same time?

SE give BRD MCH a personal esoterics cap!!!