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04-17-2011, 07:07 AM
Dragonheart

The problem (imho) is that for people here Pop Time and low drop rate = hardcore .. imho is totaly wrong .. We need some diffuculty raid content that people/ls can do very hardly with good drops .. Example? WoW had normal and hardmode of the same istance/raid .. So casual and medium people do the normal mode and gets normal drop (and even some normal mode were a bit hard, in particular at their release) .. And hardcore ppl was doing hardmodes that were veeryy veryy harder and of course with superior drops .. (Some first kill required months of wipes.. and you know how many ppl plays wow no? ) .. Sorry for the WoW example, but it was just to explain my opinion.. I prefer to PLAY and do very hard encounters and maybe wiping, rather then watching the monitor for a 3H windows while doing nothing and maybe killing a monster like fafnir by standing on his foot to spamm SC+MB without 0 strategy for several minutes.. It's not fun for me (and prolly without drop at the end..) /cheers!
04-17-2011, 07:11 AM
Jinko

Quote:

Originally Posted by Visch

When ever they add harder stuff everyone is just going to complain. You can't make everyone happy. The only option is balance.

Well there is no denying that, you only need look at these forums.

Of course as many people have said they are adding easy/casual content first because the game is still in pseudo-beta and adding end game content when the battle system, stat system and other things aren't fix is a waste of time, they will only need to go back and rebalance it.
04-17-2011, 07:11 AM
Abriael

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mugiwara

all games are basically a time sink (especially any MMO), You play games for fun, and the accomplishment of achievements/ personal goals. So saying something like this game won't be a timesink is kind of silly IMO. ^^

A timesink is an artificial way to *waste* the time of the player, and can be more or less hidden. Time -> Sink = wasted time.

If you are required to spend an extended amount of time camping an NM, waiting for it to pop, that's a timesink, because the game isn't conductive to fun, you're just staring at the screen and wasting your time while you wait for it to happen.

If you have to play all the way through a dungeon for the same amount of time, having to avoid traps, solve riddles, fight challenging and varied bosses and generally having fun, you're still *spending* time, but you're not *wasting* it. Ergo, you're not being subject to a timesink.

Some hardcore gamers are ok with timesinks because they have a ton of time in their hands, and wasting some waiting isn't that bad. Even worse, some advocate it to exclude other people from accessing the same content as they do.

Casuals have more limited time, and this means that they want to spend their limited gaming time *actively* having fun. No matter how hard or challenging that content may be. Dead times are not fun, ergo good game design excludes them.

It's really that simple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Visch

I don't know how many times I've said this but a 21-24 hour NM doesn't mean you sit around for 24 hours. It means it can pop 21 to 24 hours after it's killed so 3 hours max.

Sitting around for 3 hours staring at a screen is still an enormous amount of *wasted* time. Even ONE hour of sitting and staring at a screen is nothing else than an hour of my life that I'll never get back. That's simply bad design.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Visch

Honestly there shouldn't be this division between "hardcore" "casual" w/e... There should be content no matter how much time you have to play. The problem is everything thing is easy right now. From leveling to killing NMs. Nothing requires much of any thought at all, just time but far less time than FFXI.

Realism and logic would dictate not to expect elite-level content in a game that still *radically* lacks content that can be enjoyed by everyone. Really challenging content will come when the easy/average content will be in place.
Even more so, realism and logic would dictate that hard/elaborate content can't come before the combat system is final and in place. The more tactical an encounter is, the less generic, the more specific it becomes in regard of fighting mechanics. If you changed combat around AFTER difficul/complex content was added, they would have to redesign the content *again* after the new battle system is implemented.
The development team is hardly in a position to waste development time doing things twice.
04-17-2011, 07:32 AM
Ostia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abriael

A timesink is an artificial way to *waste* the time of the player, and can be more or less hidden. Time -> Sink = wasted time.

If you are required to spend an extended amount of time camping an NM, waiting for it to pop, that's a timesink, because the game isn't conductive to fun, you're just staring at the screen and wasting your time while you wait for it to happen.

If you have to play all the way through a dungeon for the same amount of time, having to avoid traps, solve riddles, fight challenging and varied bosses and generally having fun, you're still *spending* time, but you're not *wasting* it. Ergo, you're not being subject to a timesink.

Some hardcore gamers are ok with timesinks because they have a ton of time in their hands, and wasting some waiting isn't that bad. Even worse, some advocate it to exclude other people from accessing the same content as they do.

Casuals have more limited time, and this means that they want to spend their limited gaming time *actively* having fun. No matter how hard or challenging that content may be. Dead times are not fun, ergo good game design excludes them.

It's really that simple.

Sitting around for 3 hours staring at a screen is still an enormous amount of *wasted* time. Even ONE hour of sitting and staring at a screen is nothing else than an hour of my life that I'll never get back. That's simply bad design.

Realism and logic would dictate not to expect elite-level content in a game that still *radically* lacks content that can be enjoyed by everyone. Really challenging content will come when the easy/average content will be in place.
Even more so, realism and logic would dictate that hard/elaborate content can't come before the combat system is final and in place. The more tactical an encounter is, the less generic, the more specific it becomes in regard of fighting mechanics. If you changed combat around AFTER difficul/complex content was added, they would have to redesign the content *again* after the new battle system is implemented.
The development team is hardly in a position to waste development time doing things twice.

This! X10000! You nailed the issue to the Core!!
04-17-2011, 07:47 AM
Zkieve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abriael

Grinding in FFXI wasn't AT ALL difficult. It was long. That's all.
Skillchains/magic burst took a little coordination, but that's minimal, considering that they are an entirely routinary activity.
Considering that grind mobs in FFXIV are actually more active thanin FFXI ones (IE: in most cases have actually varied skills, that need a minimum level of awareness to be avoided), I would say that the skill involved is pretty much equivalent.

Hell, even just running around during a raptor party takes more awareness than throwing in a weapon skill for a skillchain in FFXI.

FFXIV also has stamina management on top of timing, which requires more awareness to fight with any decent degree of efficence. Aggro is more volatile too, and tanking is quite a lot more challenging in FFXIV grinding than it was in FFXI (tanking in FFXI was one of the easiest I found in a MMO).

This guy right there have to be the biggest fanboy i have ever seen in m entire career as a gamer. a incomplete game to a fully developed game , yet you continue to say this game rocks.
I feel discussing with you is a big waste of time, you are the fanboy equivalent of belgian rolf.

Anyone saying ffiv is hard should really try and get some gaming outside of the theme park course.
I done everything ffxiv have to offer and i can tell you is easiest mmo ever.Is only a big time sink all together.
If you really find ffxiv difficult , then anything would be difficult for you.
I am not a hardcore player, i used to be on ffxi , in here i BARELY play at all and i have almost two lv 50.have beatend all nms , and grinded my ass on armorer to 40.Bought almost all maxed gear since glady 40, and never had a hate problem or even a challenge in my entire career in ff14.

Please dont get me started on just how easy is to tank.
If you find tanking difficult , then you are not a casual, you just suck.

Im fine with ffxiv erasing all time sinks. I aprove.But the game it is currently on easy mode and have nothin to do with time sink vs no time sinks.Please stop with the casual vs hardcore nonsense. even casuals needs a challenge once in a while and on ffxiv i consider myself very casual.

And to the so called hardcores.The game have nothin to offer for you yet.The nms are not for you , there is no end game.So stop complaining and wait till hard content is released for you. Until then level the rest of the classes that can make you better.Stop bitching because a bunch of NM not directed to you have been released.They are not end game. This game will not see a end game until 50 cap is raised, maybe by ps3 release.If you cant wait then gtfo .this game have no end game atm.
04-17-2011, 07:48 AM
Visch

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abriael

Sitting around for 3 hours staring at a screen is still an enormous amount of *wasted* time. Even ONE hour of sitting and staring at a screen is nothing else than an hour of my life that I'll never get back. That's simply bad design.

Well there is 7 30 second windows. So:

1) You're not always there for anywhere near 3 hours unless you're super unlucky
2) If you have a real life it's great because you can go afk for 29 minutes lol (because we all know how busy you are)

If you sit there staring then you must be really hardcore
04-17-2011, 07:59 AM
Abriael

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zkieve

This guy right there have to be the biggest fanboy i have ever seen in m entire career as a gamer. a incomplete game to a fully developed game , yet you continue to say this game rocks.
I feel discussing with you is a big waste of time, you are the fanboy equivalent of belgian rolf.

You really can't write a single post without throwing insults at the one you're discussing with, right? Try with actual arguments next time?

And by the way, I'm still very anxious to see you quote where I ever said that this game "rocks" or any equivalent. Unfortunately strawman arguments extremizing my position (since you don't seem to be able to actually counter it in it's original form and content) don't cut it.

Quote:

Anyone saying ffiv is hard should really try and get some gaming outside of the theme park course.

Unfortunately for your theory, I am an all-round gamer, and play a very wide variety of games, both MMORPGs and Single/multi-player. Try again.
Besides, no one has ever said that FFXIV is "hard". It's in the average. FFXI is, in many aspects, quite a bit easier. Just more timesinkish, thing that has nothing to do with difficulty.

Quote:

I done everything ffxiv have to offer and i can tell you is easiest mmo ever.Is only a big time sink all together.

Unfortunately you saying that doesn't make it true.

Quote:

If you really find ffxiv difficult , then anything would be difficult for you.
I am not a hardcore player, i used to be on ffxi , in here i BARELY play at all and i have almost two lv 50.have beatend all nms , and grinded my ass on armorer to 40.Bought almost all maxed gear since glady 40, and never had a hate problem or even a challenge in my entire career in ff14.

Which is pretty much the same in FFXI. The only difference is that acquiering certain things takes more TIME.
TIME != Skill.

Quote:

Please dont get me started on just how easy is to tank.
If you find tanking difficult , then you are not a casual, you just suck.

Oh the idle boasting. Tanking isn't "difficult" per se. But comparing tanking normal grind mobs between FFXI and FFXIV, it's quite obvious that FFXIV has the more challenging version.

Tanking in FFXI is entirely routinary, the only diversion is throwing in the right weapon skill at the right time (which is, in any case, still routinary, when it's even done, and lately it isn't), and aggro is extremely easy to keep. You don't even need to administer your stamina, as everything is simply a matter of rotational timing.

Tanking in FFXIV is more complex for many reasons:
1: active guard/guard skills, requiring to administer stamina in order to have the shield up at all times
2: more volatile aggro control. The mobs don't stick to the tank with fish glue like they do in FFXI, also, stamina plays a major role, as you need to administer it in order to avoid your taunts' cooldown to be done but having no stamina to use them, which interlinks with point 1.
3: most grinding mobs are more active, have more positional/situational attacks, that require more awareness to be tanked effectively, and require more awareness of the positions of the group, since, just to make an example, a tank that manages to notice that one of the melee is positioning wrongly behind a raptor can save the whole group by changing his own position and turning the mob.

99% of the FFXI grind mobs are a simple tank and spank, with very little depth and nothing else to do than to spam the same routine over and over.
Let's hear your argument, o great tank. "you suck" isn't a valid one. :D
04-17-2011, 08:02 AM
Zkieve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abriael

blha blha blha

My time isnt worth answering you.
if you find the game difficult then i stand for what i said before.
Mario 3 is hardz.tanking is hardz.I dont need a degree on internetz to know what is hard and what is not.
I enjoy playing to some extent, but saying tanking isnt a joke here is like saying ffxi wasnt a huge time sink.
Saying 99% of FFXI mobs are tank and spank only comes to show how ignorant you are.

edit; in before you say i want ffxi system or that i agree with visch.
I DONT.
but that doesnt change the facts claiming this game is difficult is completely absurd.
04-17-2011, 08:03 AM
Abriael

Quote:

Originally Posted by Visch

1) You're not always there for anywhere near 3 hours unless you're super unlucky
2) If you have a real life it's great because you can go afk for 29 minutes lol (because we all know how busy you are)

Lemme spell it out for you. No matter if you waste the whole three hours (or any number) staring at the screen or going afk for 29 minutes. You're not playing, and you're not having fun.

Good game design is fun for the whole time, not for 30 seconds every 30 minutes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zkieve

My time isnt worth answering you.
if you find the game difficult then i stand for what i said before.
Mario 3 is hardz.tanking is hardz.I dont need a degree on internetz to know what is hard and what is not.
I enjoy playing to some extent, but saying tanking isnt a joke here is like saying ffxi wasnt a huge time sink.
Saying 99% of FFXI mobs are tank and spank only comes to show how ignorant you are.

You (quite conveniently) forgot the "grind" parts of "99% of FFXI grind mobs". In any case, lovely to see that you (quite conveniently again) refuse to bring in even just one argument to counter what I say or to prove the personal accusations you throw (I'm still waiting to see you quote where I said that the game rocks).
The "my time isn't worth answering you" sunds a lot like the typical forum warrior excuse used when he doesn't know what to write.

Oh, and I despise Mario with a passion.
04-17-2011, 08:12 AM
Zkieve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abriael

Lemme spell it out for you. No matter of you waste the whole three hours (or any number) staring at the screen or going afk for 29 minutes. You're not playing, and you're not having fun.

Good game design is fun for the whole time, not for 30 seconds every 30 minutes.

You (quite conveniently) forgot the "grind" parts of "99% of FFXI grind mobs". In any case, lovely to see that you (quite conveniently again) refuse to bring in even just one argument to counter what I say.
The "my time isn't worth answering you" sunds a lot the typical forum warrior excuse used when he doesn't know what to write.

What exactly is your point , cause i fail to see one , let me retype it to you , FFXIV is easy. Tanking is easy.You find it hard, then maybe an IQ test is due.We dont have an end game, We dont have balanced classes, the devs say so themselfs, but you want to argue even with devs who say the games is in a bad shape and they are catering to the casual-mid level crowd atm.

What is your argument, that keeping guard up and managing stamina is hard, get out of here.Just becouse you find it fun ( and i can acept that completly ) it does not make it hard.Stop labeling people of hardcore or casuals.

EVERYONE NEEDS A CHALLENGE.

time sink=/= challenge
current ffxiv =/= challenge.

is it clear enough for you ?

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