On Venat's Role in the Story

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Originally Posted by Kozh

Not really, because the Ancients held every life blessed with soul from the star in high regard.

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Not enough to show consideration to their autonomy or rights however. The Lykaons had souls, and the only one who wept for them was Hermes.

[QUOTE=Kozh;5926423]And considering they already made a precursor to some of the beast tribes, who exhibit intelligence and language recognition, not weird for them to consider it as "new life who may have a right over the star, but won't be able to defend the star if the calamity returns".

There is no basis that the Ancients were motivated by belief that they needed to be their when the calamity returns. The only ones who have stated that [I]were the ones who Sundered the world. There's zero indication that they were acting out of anything but a desire to see their brethren returned.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

The wars and violence gets way worse

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I disagree. Now that they want for nothing, the former Sundered would do exactly as the Ancients did.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

Boy, I would do it even for one person

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So you'd kill an innocent just to save one other? Why does one get to live while the other doesn't?

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Originally Posted by Kozh

???? What is this even supposed to mean??

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I'm saying if you truly it right for one to do as you say, then why aren't you actively helping improve the world by saving those five?

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Originally Posted by Kozh

She *believes* she did the right thing.

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She did the right thing.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

When exactly did she do this? And please don't use that music video as evidence as nothing in that represents actual events. And let's say that she did spring from the woodwork after 75% of her people had been killed and tried to spew platitudes at them in some offscreen scene we never saw. Who did she tell before the worst possible scenario occurred? How do you explain absolutely no one knowing what the cause of the Final Days was if she tried her best to communicate and reason with them prior? We know for a fact that the Convocation did not know, nor did her own allies such as the Watcher know. So who did she offer warnings and reasoning to, exactly?

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Were back to rejecting cutscenes because they don't fit people's headcanon. And once again, where is the proof the Watcher was a member of her inner circle. They were a friend that she cared about sure, but she was clear that she would bring people into the fold if she trusted them with that knowledge. I'm sure we all have friends or acquittances that we don't trust world ending secrets to, I certainly wouldn't give the nuclear launch codes to my folks if I had them.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The only iffy sacrifice was the 3rd sacrifice which wasn’t sacrificing land, it was sacrificing a portion of the new life to bring back those lost. Where does it say they would forget what happened? We know the event is literally scarred onto their souls, they couldn’t forget if they wanted to. I really wish yall would quit with the blatant misinformation and headcanon.

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She straight up asked them to remember and they said

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We can't accept it. We won't accept it. It will be ours again, a world free of sorrow.

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Also god are we really doing this again. The convo was going so well.

(2/2)

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Originally Posted by RayneBoemir

That is a terrible outlook how can you sacrifice other lives whether human or not to fulfill your selfish desires.

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Just an opinion based on how you value these other lives. We value them to the order of putting them in a burger in the case of animals. Different people have different perspectives on the ethics of that - most of this planet isn't vegan, and I certainly am not.

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The Ascians view the sundered as imperfect life and unworthy of living inheriting their world as I recalled, not so much disimilar to how some human races view other human races and animals.

The game touches on a lot of subjects pertaining to how humanity functions as a species.

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Do you mind pointing me to the human race that is the result of splicing and dicing another human race to the point that something with much shorter lifespans and various other attributes emerges, wiping out the latter's culture entirely? Just so we're actually working with a proper analogy.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Do you mind pointing me to the human race that is the result of splicing and dicing another human race to the point that something with much shorter lifespans and various other attributes emerges, wiping out the latter's culture entirely? Just so we're actually working with a proper analogy.

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So much this, tbh. There is a reason that like 55% of the lore forum call Venat's actions genocide. Because in one of the ways we consider Genocide [the entire destruction of a people's culture] they were

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Were back to rejecting cutscenes because they don't fit people's headcanon. And once again, where is the proof the Watcher was a member of her inner circle. They were a friend that she cared about sure, but she was clear that she would bring people into the fold if she trusted them with that knowledge. I'm sure we all have friends or acquittances that we don't trust world ending secrets to, I certainly wouldn't give the nuclear launch codes to my folks if I had them.



She straight up asked them to remember and they said



Also god are we really doing this again. The convo was going so well.

(2/2)

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It’s ironic you being this up when back in ShB you were constantly dismissing Emet-Selch’s narrative for being bias.Now what, Venat can’t be biased whatsoever? Even though we literally just learned in ShB how biased memories are and had an entire instance dedicated to that? Also again, she said that DURING THE FINAL DAYS if we are to take her memory instance seriously. That means literally nothing. She had the knowledge to tell them and didn’t, that’s all that matters. Imagine if we went to the people of thavnair and said,”sorry guys, you need to learn to suffer, suck it up.” Oh i’m sure that would go down amazingly well.Also i was asking that person, not you.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It’s ironic you being this up when back in ShB you were constantly dismissing Emet-Selch’s narrative for being bias.Now what, Venat can’t be biased whatsoever?

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Where did I ever reject a whole cutscene? I certainly interpreted things differently and took descriptions with a grain of salt, but I never said reject everything they said. The closest I could think of was my doubt that Venat wiped peoples memories, a stance I fully will admit I don’t hold now.

But I would hope we’re all aware that disagreeing on interpretations of Emets speeches is not the same as disregarding cutscenes showing us events we were not privy too. I don’t remember people arguing that the crystal vision we received of the flood should be disregarded in SHB and I certainly don’t remember in any expansion it being stated that one can manipulate crystallized time left floating in the rift between.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Also again, she said that DURING THE FINAL DAYS if we are to take her memory instance seriously. That means literally nothing. She had the knowledge to tell them and didn’t, that’s all that matters. Imagine if we went to the people of thavnair and said,”sorry guys, you need to learn to suffer, suck it up.” Oh i’m sure that would go down amazingly well.

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https://i.imgur.com/hYpyBCY.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/UhXQfEC.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/32GwL3W.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Ex0aFIi.jpg

I’m glad I still have these screenshots from two months ago when you asked that question.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Also i was asking that person, not you.

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My mistake, I’ll try not butt in on this internet discussion board next time. :)

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Originally Posted by Tehmon

Certainly sundered aren't innocent in their own right. That was never the intent behind anything I've said. What I mean is that ascians have actively and intentionally chosen to manipulate the sundered to their own means, and without such interference, one has to wonder how much better off such a world would've been, and what difference it would've made. And when trying to judge the actions of the sundered as a whole, I do not think we can ignore what influence ascians have had on things getting as bad as they have, even if it's part of the sundered's nature to fall to wickedness.

But alas, I think there are two parties in this dilemma falling to the wickedness that festers within.

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Seems that we agree on this then.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Where did I ever reject a whole cutscene? I certainly interpreted things differently and took descriptions with a grain of salt, but I never said reject everything they said. The closest I could think of was my doubt that Venat wiped peoples memories, a stance I fully will admit I don’t hold now.

But I would hope we’re all aware that disagreeing on interpretations of Emets speeches is not the same as disregarding cutscenes showing us events we were not privy too. I don’t remember people arguing that the crystal vision we received of the flood should be disregarded in SHB and I certainly don’t remember in any expansion it being stated that one can manipulate crystallized time left floating in the rift between.



https://i.imgur.com/hYpyBCY.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/UhXQfEC.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/32GwL3W.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Ex0aFIi.jpg

I’m glad I still have these screenshots from two months ago when you asked that question.



My mistake, I’ll try not butt in on this internet discussion board next time. :)

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Ah yes, she’s saying that to the few surviving people no? Meanwhile how did people react when told to calm down and not let despair take them in front of Radz. Oh yes that’s right, they all mass turned. So i’m not sure that really helps your case. In regards to the memory thing, again, it’s clearly her own biased rendition of events, considering the entire thing itself is all out of order from how we KNOW events took place. Just that is enough to render that entire scene as not trustworthy.

Yeah, this is why I had to excuse myself from this discussion.

It's pretty clear that there's not going to be any resolution or concession.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Were back to rejecting cutscenes because they don't fit people's headcanon. And once again, where is the proof the Watcher was a member of her inner circle. They were a friend that she cared about sure, but she was clear that she would bring people into the fold if she trusted them with that knowledge. I'm sure we all have friends or acquittances that we don't trust world ending secrets to, I certainly wouldn't give the nuclear launch codes to my folks if I had them.

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I don't need to resort to headcanon when I can just look to the actual canon to see it for what it is, a metaphorical pantomime. Not sure if you remember, but in ShB we were given a very detailed breakdown of the Sundering and events leading up to it. For example, the Final Days had been stopped completely after the second round of people gave their lives to save it. The world had been restored and was in the process of healing. Therefore, the scene with Venat walking saddened through a destroyed Amaurot complete with burning skies and Terminus Beasts on her way to lecture the people was...complete fiction. We do know that her group apparently tried to reason with the Convocation after the Final Days had ended, so the meaningless, tone-deaf overtures may have happened somewhere, but they certainly didn't happen the way they were portrayed in the Venat propaganda piece.

As for the Sundering; Again, we were told quite clearly how this happened by at least two different people, and it didn't involve Venat (in her human form) pulling out a shiny sword in the middle of town to smite the despairing populace. Instead, she (as Hydaelyn) after she had devoured the souls of her followers, fought with Zodiark until she was able to win and shattered him, herself and the star along with every soul on it into fourteen pieces.

And if you think any part of her walking down a corridor of sadness and tears was literal then I have a bridge to sell you.

Also, I don't actually care who the Watcher was in her life, she saddled them with the most important charge in the world and told them nothing about why they were doing it. And the fact still stands that she told no one who mattered about the crisis at hand, so even if she told her "followers" the truth (and I doubt she did as they seemed to be under the impression that they'd be around to "miss" her after summoning a primal), what of it? That would be like me coming back from the moon and confiding in Hoary Boulder and Coultenet instead of Nanamo and Aymeric. How entirely useless.

But as it's also clear that you choose to omit the facts of the story when they are presented to you because of your own bias, I feel it's safe to say that there is no point in discussing anything with you going forward. Have fun!

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Yeah, this is why I had to excuse myself from this discussion.

It's pretty clear that there's not going to be any resolution or concession.

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What did you expect?