We're all DDs now >.>

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Things change over time, as I've stated with the "regen" issue. At the beginning of V2.0 tanks would just outright curse you out for using it, so my play style has been to avoid using regen unless the character has a debuff that can't be cleaned by esuna. Otherwise using it before the tank has taken any damage results in all the monsters heading straight for you, and tanks have stated they will "let the healer tank" if they do this. Apparently the "lazy healer" trope is a result of the healer blowing all their HoT's and then doing effectively nothing. Or in otherwords punishing the tank for your bad play style. I'm sure the good tanks recognize bad healers, and good healers recognize bad tanks because their roles when played correctly are easy, and when one or the other are playing poorly, it's twice as much work for the other.

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You have been told a billion times in this thread and probably others that using Regen is not an issue whatsoever for any tank and does not cause them to "work harder" in any way. You have been told this by experienced tank players while you yourself don't even have a tank leveled. Why don't you believe the players who actually know these things from personal experience which you're lacking? Once again: HoTs are your most effective heals and you should use them as much as possible. They're only issue if you pre-cast them before tank has finished a pull. Maybe you have misunderstood that?

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Nobody is saying NOT to DPS ever. The problem is that some segment of players believe that a non-DPS'ing healer is somehow lazy, when the only way that can be true is by having the Tank play perfectly, every time.

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There are some healers who don't DPS who are being lazy though. Does that mean all healers? No, but sometimes it is very obvious....

I've seen healers who jump around for up to a minute with no healing needed...yet they don't throw any DPS at all. If they have time to hit the spacebar (Or Triangle on controller) 20+ times I am sure they could have thrown in a few DoT spells or an attack spell or two. Like any reason not to use that jumping time into something that helps your party out?? I can't think of any plausible excuse for this. Those are the healers who people are calling lazy.

I know some healers lack skill and/or confidence, but even the lower skilled healers should have time to toss out a few damage spells here and there and if you are putting effort in no one cares how much damage you do since at least you are trying. Put 3 DoTs on something then when back to healing because you are a little worried about someone dying? No problem! At least you are trying to help.

Honestly unless your character is an alt....being only i180 WHM means you just don't have the experience to fully understand what these other players are talking about since mostly people are talking about decently geared healers in non-sync content who have plenty of opportunity to DPS and just don't do it and jump around or stand doing nothing for very long periods of time or healers who spam Cure I/II on the tank over and over with massive over healing for no reason when they could have just used a few DPS spells instead. So you are basically claiming downtime doesn't exist but you are in fact ignorant of its existence due to lack of experience.

I would suggest actually gearing up farther and playing WHM more to get a better grasp on things because the tank definitely does not have to play perfectly in order for a healer to DPS. I am telling you this as a healer who has been playing since 1.0 and been subbed for all of the 3 years and 9 months or so that the re-launched game has existed. I'm quite knowledgeable since I've been playing so long and being main healer this whole time. Some low level dungeons sync'd can be kinda hard to do healer DPS depending on the tank this is true, but most people aren't talking about lack of healer DPS in low level content.

Also coming from an experienced healer....not using Regen is not good. Yes, you shouldn't use it on a tank before they pull, but it should be the first or second spell you use on the tank once they obtain hate on all the mobs. If you are having trouble healing, which might be due to your gear level, then not using Regen is just making your job harder than it needs to be. So just some helpful advice from a veteran to hopefully make your healing life easier in the future.

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

I honestly don't understand how everyone goes on saying: "I only want effort, not high dps" - which completely denies the arguement that OUT THERE enough healer get harrassed for not doing enough dps.

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I think you are misrepresenting "Harrassed for not doing enough DPS" with "Harrassed for not complying to Always Be Casting", the two are different but the outcome is the same. People aren't looking at Healer damage numbers, people are looking at healer activity.

I'm not saying this is the total rule of thumb, there are assholes in the game, however the general pro-dps crowd disagrees with them as much as the non-dps crowd does.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

That is the point. If you changed the dialogue to "do pro-dps healers think that this should be the way the game is designed?" you might actually get some thought provoking discussion in your favour, however the discussion we are having is "what is the right way to play healer right now?" and regardless of whether you agree with it or not, not holding the mentality of DPSing during downtime is poor practice as a healer.

I don't know what you are doing wrong but regen is one of your most powerful spells and should be used often.

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"Pro-DPS healer" advocates keep insinuating that those that aren't, are ALL lazy, should be kicked, etc. Hence the argument continues.

At no point in any pre-50 content have you ever needed to pre-cast regen on everyone instead of cure. All it does is generate enmity at twice the rate that using cure or cure II alone does, thus if if you are using regen on a target not taking damage, you make the tanks job harder. Maybe they don't notice, or maybe most tanks have adapted to bad healer's, who knows.

From my perspective with the Duty finder, all the regular content, you can not expect a perfect party, ever. If you try to play the hard/extreme/old-raid content, you still get people who insist that you play everything perfectly and the second a mistake is made, abandon instance.

The duty finder is not designed for healers to mandatory DPS. As much as "pro-dps healer" people want people to believe otherwise even in raids. If content was designed for this, they would make the ilevels different for tanks, healers and DPS. Instead the content assumes you've got the minimum gear required, and thus every player can put out a fixed amount of minimum damage, and the minimum damage put out by the DPS at the lowest ilevel is enough to finish the instance alone. If the game had been designed for more intense healing, they would lower the ilevel required for healers to enter.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Things change over time, as I've stated with the "regen" issue. At the beginning of V2.0 tanks would just outright curse you out for using it, so my play style has been to avoid using regen unless the character has a debuff that can't be cleaned by esuna. Otherwise using it before the tank has taken any damage results in all the monsters heading straight for you, and tanks have stated they will "let the healer tank" if they do this.

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Whaaa? I played WHM in 1.0 and 2.0 before SCH came out and the only time tanks would be pissed if I used Regen would be when I'd stupidly cast the spell before they pulled the mobs. I learned very quickly to let the tank gather up the mobs first, establish hate, and then I can cast Regen as much as my little heart wants/needs to. That's just common healing sense! And if by some chance you do accidentally put a Regen on the tank and grab hate, you bring the mobs you pulled back to the tank, and pop Shroud of Saints.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The healer is at a disadvantage in all FATE content because their DPS is weak and slow for the big booms. There's been entire FATE's that 20 DPS players can burn down a boss before you even get to switch into or out of healer, and if you try to DPS as healer, unless you were there first, or there is a collectable solution you're not going to be able to kill things enough to count as a large contributor.

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I never had this problem in FATES but, to be fair, I would always take my ChocoBro with me. But I have him out no matter what job I'm doing my FATES on.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If there is >1 enemy, you should not have time to single-target DPS, at least your tank and one DPS is likely getting their face eaten if you "do nothing", and if you heal before the tank grabs enmity, you become all the adds targets.

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I always try to Stoneskin/Aldo the tank before trash pulls so I can have some extra time to start throwing out whatever DPS I can. If the tank is good, I can get in all my dots, bane, and throw down my Shadowflare before I have to start healing. If the tank is REALLY good, I can even get in two-three Broils, throw them an Adlo, then I can get right back to doing DPS/refreshing my dots.

Now if the tank is just sort of average, I do have a harder time getting out all of my dots+bane. Usually I can get down a Swiftcasted Shadow Flare and that might be that for most of the fight until there's only 2-3 mobs standing. This is the type of tank I run into for a large portion of my duty roulettes, unfortunately.

And just in the past couple of duty roulettes I did, the tank ran into mobs as I was in the middle of casting Stoneskin. All I had to do was bring the mob or two that came after me over to the tank, and everything was absolutely fine. I got two commendations at the end of that roulette in fact.

You might write me off as, "BUT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SCHOOOOOLAR" but I've seen crazy freaking White Mages who Stoneskin the tank, wait for him to gather up the mobs, and Swiftcast+Holy and maybe another couple of casts of Holy before they start throwing out heals. I've seen some White Mages have CRAZY DPS that way and they manage their MP via cooldowns like Shroud of Saints. I haven't leveled my WHM past 50 since I picked up SCH but this is what I've personally seen. And actually that is also what I used to do when I was level 50 in 2.0 as well. I also carry around a stack of Hi-Elixirs that no, I didn't craft myself. Actually, I don't even know where they came from and I have like 60-70 more on one of my retainers! I'm assuming I must have accumulated them just from playing the game. I pop them when I get in sticky situations. I can't be the only one with such a huge stash of these from just playing the game.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

For SCH, the pet is much smarter than "cast regen" and the SCH role is a hybrid DPS/Healer.

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HAHAHA! No, the Fairy is freaking dumb and I micromanage her. I place her in optimal positions on the battle field and put out her buffs, in particular Eos' Regen buff, to make sure I can hit everyone or more importantly make sure the tank gets that Regen if no one else. Even with micromanaging the dumb Fairy, I still make sure I can throw out some sort of DPS spells.

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

At this point - everyone should play a true dps class as it seems 'damage per second' is all anyone cares about in roles anymore.

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With how some people play this game thats impossible, theres a lot of dps who either lag or think they're tanks which causes them to have agro and almost die to their own stupidity. In all honesty people should be free to play the game how they want, and if people dont like it then thats their problem, they shouldnt be so elitist and expect everyone to play a certain way. They're not the only ones paying a sub to play this game.

If its end game content i can see how people are emo and start whining when people dont play to the same level as others. You only need to look at party finder to see the ones who are like that. a recent example of that is one that says "No failures, no bonus and I kick people who die with 75%+ hp left on boss"

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

I honestly don't understand how everyone goes on saying: "I only want effort, not high dps" - which completely denies the arguement that OUT THERE enough healer get harrassed for not doing enough dps.

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The actions of a few do not define the many.

Sometimes, you are going to come across jerks. That is not unique to healers otherwise #deletemonk wouldn't have been a thing. People who have posted in this thread, my included, only want effort. Do something; anything. Just don't stand still while everyone else does all the work.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

At no point in any pre-50 content have you ever needed to pre-cast regen on everyone instead of cure. All it does is generate enmity at twice the rate that using cure or cure II alone does, thus if if you are using regen on a target not taking damage, you make the tanks job harder. Maybe they don't notice, or maybe most tanks have adapted to bad healer's, who knows.

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You use Regen after the tank has pulled and established threat. I generally wait until some damage has gone out. Why is this so difficult for you to comprehend?

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

"Pro-DPS healer" advocates keep insinuating that those that don't even try, are ALL lazy, should be kicked, etc. Hence the argument continues.

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fixed it for you

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

At no point in any pre-50 content have you ever needed to pre-cast regen on everyone instead of cure. All it does is generate enmity at twice the rate that using cure or cure II alone does, thus if if you are using regen on a target not taking damage, you make the tanks job harder. Maybe they don't notice, or maybe most tanks have adapted to bad healer's, who knows.

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I've played both healers and tanks and I have never had an issue with regen so long as you wait for the tank to build a bit of enmity first. I think you are overestimating the enmity issues relating to regen. If you are putting on before the pull then yeah, you will have issues, but if you wait for the tank to do one rotation, then you can regen to your hearts content.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

From my perspective with the Duty finder, all the regular content, you can not expect a perfect party, ever. If you try to play the hard/extreme/old-raid content, you still get people who insist that you play everything perfectly and the second a mistake is made, abandon instance.

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As I, and many others have said, you do not need a perfect party to find yourself with large gaps in your healing (so long as you are using regen), not even close.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The duty finder is not designed for healers to mandatory DPS. As much as "pro-dps healer" people want people to believe otherwise even in raids. If content was designed for this, they would make the ilevels different for tanks, healers and DPS. Instead the content assumes you've got the minimum gear required, and thus every player can put out a fixed amount of minimum damage. If the game had been designed for more intense healing, they would lower the ilevel required for healers to enter.

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Mandatory DPS no, but so much downtime that the choice is DPS or idle, I think I know what everyone would like you to do. As I have to repeat for the billionth time, nobody is saying that DPS is the thing that is important, NOT IDLING AND ALWAYS MAKING SURE YOU ARE CASTING IS WHAT WE WANT FROM YOU, WHICH MEANS DPSING WHEN YOU HAVE NOTHING ELSE TO DO (said in all caps/bolded/underlined so you can't possibly miss it).

Learn to regen and you might start to see what we are talking about.

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Originally Posted by vio_p

With how some people play this game thats impossible, theres a lot of dps who either lag or think they're tanks which causes them to have agro and almost die to their own stupidity. In all honesty people should be free to play the game how they want, and if people dont like it then thats their problem, they shouldnt be so elitist and expect everyone to play a certain way. They're not the only ones paying a sub to play this game.

If its end game content i can see how people are emo and start whining when people dont play to the same level as others. You only need to look at party finder to see the ones who are like that. a recent example of that is one that says "No failures, no bonus and I kick people who die with 75%+ hp left on boss"

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That's because high difficult contents require a certain level of play.
And the only one going full emo are those ones who think that the latest ex primal or savage should be beaten by anyway regardless how good he plays his job.

Nope. If you're a BRD who gets outdpsed by a healer you don't deserve the kill, unless 7 people sign up for a free carry. But, well... there is a reason why a "carry" costs several million gil.
Even worse if it's a farm. Farming the latest ex primal should be a thing for people who can actually play their class.
If a NIN don't even use Huton before the pull it's time to look up a class guide first instead of a primal guide and call it a day. If you're a BRD who uses Manasong 100% the time (this was the one who was beaten by healers), the same.
Else you can wait until SB when you go as lvl 70 and free carries are the norm.
The "no Bonus" hints a farm, so I wanna ask: What is wrong in saying "I wann farm this with people who don't fail in the first quarter of the fight and understand the core of their jobs."?

Yesterday I was in a sophia kill with a co-tank not provoking, even after being told. Sure, we (or in that case the healers) can carry that. But this would make him able to join farm parties and no, just no.

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And at healer discussion... a regen doesn't generate much more emnity than a tanks auto-attacks do. A tank who get's a regen after he hit all the adds once won't lose hate if he just does his normal thing: Gather them up, flash/overpower/unleash. A single one of those (or any single target combo, if it's a boss) and a 100% uptime regen can't steal anything from you, unless healer uses at least 2-3 Cure II's as well and you... stop doing anything?! Idk. xD

It's pretty easy to see why that is that way: DPS will always generate a dozen times the emnity of a single regen.
Why should a tank worry about an 2500 hp tick regen (generating half the emnity, so 1250 emnity per 3 seconds), if there are dps who should push out 2000-4000 dps (generating full emnity of 2-4k Points per second). It's 2000-4000 emnity/s from dps towards ~400 emnity/s from healing.

Especially as a WHM dpsing is the best thing you can do, because beside doing damage you get stunned enemies, which equals to about at least a 10k heal/shield in terms of mitigation.

But well... are peple really arguing with someone who kinda said that a fairy is smarter with her heals than he'd be as a regen-casting WHM?

Regarding that Regen thingie, a good heal will place his regen in a way that it runs out before the next trash group, a good tank will click it off if its still active.

Claiming there is a problem with Regen is only true when both (heal and tank) players do not pay attention.