Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

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Originally Posted by Ibuki-

Or you can simply adapt to majority wants and not selfishly "me myself and I" would do wonders. Another simple courtesy of communication will go far, too.

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The problem with that is, where did any of that come up in the Hall of Novice training that everyone supposedly went through? It specifically implies that tanks establish aggro on trash and bosses, hold the aggro and turn the enemies away from the others aka they dictate the pace. Until there are harsher consequences of DPS/Healers pulling ahead of the tank then, unfortunately, this thread is where we're at. A stand still. Which I HATE seeing because it doesn't solve anything. I didn't think SE needed to spell it out to the community like kindergartners, but alas, this thread dictates that it needs to be.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

The fact that the party can kick players for obstruction, where obstruction is very loosely defined, means it really doesn't matter what your opinion on right or wrong is.

Feel free to kick severe underperformers if you feel they are an obstruction, because the votes determine if they're an obstruction or not.

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Van you really do come off as a bully

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

Van you really do come off as a bully

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what part of not playing with someone you dont wanna play with bullying? even small children understand that not everyone has to play together

Am I misunderstanding your post? Does hall of novice need to teach communication? See, my point is very simple:

1. Out of 4 members in the party, 3 wants big pulls. The 4th member should do it and not "k I'm not healing you, k I'm not tanking this, k I'm not gonna aoe"

2. In the event a majority wants big pulls but the healer or tank is new; communicate. "Hey I am new to the game / this class. Can we go at a slower pace please"

3. In the event communication does not work, adapt and learn and not be sour (or salty). The run would be over in 10 minutes instead of raging non stop for the next 10 months.

4. Duty finder is there for easy party access to dungeons. Roulettes is a mix between newbies and long time players of which both should be equally respected and not push expectations on them "oh just because I can do it".

Personally, when I got to stormblood and I've ran all the level 70 dungeons as first time without video references and I can hold my own weight as a healer. Yes I can do it. So? Should I expect every other tanks to do large pulls, too?

Adapt to the majority of party wants. This concept is so simple yet often ignored.

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Originally Posted by Caitlinzulu

With big groups its not allways easy to even see which ones you dont have agro on if they arent on your agro list due to being pulled by someone else.
Also the one who pulls gets a lead on the agro table so you are making life a whole lot more difficult for the tank.

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Read up on how enmity works.

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Originally Posted by Indefiinable

I’m curious is there actual statistical data that shows large pulls make a dungeon go faster? I’m just wondering because with huge pulls you loose a bit of healer dps because they have to concentrate solely on healing

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Yes. If the party knows that AoE does more, chances are they know their rotations and there is a chance the tank will be in DPS stance for bosses. You see a clear difference as you usually skip boss mechanics. Depending on the dungeon the healer doesn't have to cast any GCD heals even in large pulls unless the tank doesn't know how to use defensive cooldowns or is poorly geared.

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Originally Posted by Indefiinable

Also why is there this obsession with making dungeons go as fast as possible? The are the staple of the game, should they not be enjoyable to run at any speed?

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It's not about speed, but respect. If the tank doesn't have to pull large when everyone is decked out, then the healer doesn't have to dps, DPS don't have to AoE and can just randomly use actions, and I guess the tank doesn't have to do anything on those small pulls except maintain aggro. The run takes much longer as a result. Multiply that by hundreds of runs and that group is wasting a lot of time for others because they only care about themselves. Read the arguments again and you won't see anyone mention anything about having the best food up or using potions on cooldown or synchronizing buffs/debuffs and so on.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

I can only assume you say this because you arent the one that has to set everything up for positionals so you dont get chewed out at the end of the run.

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AoE doesn't use positionals.

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Originally Posted by Reylinn

Player skill is relative

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There is no reason for a DPS to not use AoE at 50+. There is no reason for a healer at 50+ to spam their basic heal spell when the tank is at 95%. There is no reason for a tank to be in tank stance for the entirety of a boss if the healer is dpsing. There is no reason for a tank to do small pulls if the healer is capable of keeping them topped off while still dpsing themselves even on large pulls.

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Originally Posted by Reylinn

a group of raiders might kick people for non optimal stances etc.

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Never seen this happen. I kick often. I have low standards, but they're still standards. Some examples:
Lvl 50 EX trial - DRG not using Chaos Thrust combo once even after told how
Lvl 50 EX trial - SMN not using any DoTs.
Lvl 60+ dungeon - BLM not using Fire II, Flare or Fire IV
Lvl 60 dungeon - BLM not using Fire IV
Lvl 60+ dungeon - BRD not using Iron Jaws or even their wind DoT
Lvl 70 dungeon - WHM not using regens or offensive spells and was only casting Cure on large pulls
Lvl 70 dungeon - Tank could not hold aggro even when given a GCD or two head start. On closer inspection they were face pulling all but one mob in a pack
Countless Lvl 50+ dungeons - DPS not using AoE even after being told to

No excuse for any of that.

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Originally Posted by Reylinn

Kicking is for DC, afk, or being a jerk.

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That's your opinion.

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Originally Posted by Reylinn

Otherwise you're griefing and should probably be reported.

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Nothing will happen as it's perfectly acceptable. You'd have a better chance of a report of harassment go through on the poor performers.

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Originally Posted by Reylinn

I'm not in love with kicking anyone for playing bad.

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If we're talking rotations and basics of their job, I am. There is a chance you get a replacement that respects your time, booting the poor performer rewards good performers with a shorter queue or a duty that has already progressed and if the poor performer decides to read a guide for their job/role (takes only a few minutes), many hours will be saved for others.

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Originally Posted by Violet_Galaxy

Tanks set the pace. Really simple.

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How is the tank going to set the pace when the healer can heal and dps even on large pulls? "Please don't pull more, spamming this one action is too hard"?

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

People aren't defending "bad, lazy players". The tank that was kicked in the OP was not a "bad, lazy player".

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a tank that refused to do larger pulls despite the group offering encouragement, and telling them not to worry if things go south that they have their back.

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Originally Posted by Greven

That is the only bad behaviour here.

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There isn't any. Premade asked tank to pull more. Tank refused. Tank got kicked.

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Originally Posted by Greven

Vote Dismiss abuse justified by the group/lads/bully mentality for petty reasons.

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It's not abuse and is a perfectly acceptable reason to dismiss someone.

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Originally Posted by Greven

It is probably one of the many reasons tanks are so lacking in these type of contents.

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Tanks aren't played because they don't get to dictate how things go?

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

you really do come off as a bully

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Having respect for your time is considered bullying?

ITT: Having the rest of the party cater to you is fine
Also ITT: Asking one person to cater to the benefit of everyone else is rude

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Originally Posted by Baxcel

As a tank main i do small pulls only, and ill tell you why. I generally only run with my partner who is a healer main, I know he's easily stressed an can be distracted because he likes to help out with dps too. So i pull smaller so its less stress on us both, and so he gets to feel less like a walking benifect.

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Being in the for the first time and doing single pulls is okay and normal, after all you, as tank, need to get a feel for the mobs. I can understand if you want to err on the side of caution in unfamiliar territory.

Tell your healer friend to man up, use a proper CD rotation and he can still AoE the crap out of the mobs.
I do it in every run that I heal and so can you. Us healers are absurdly powerful in this game.

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Originally Posted by Ibuki-

Am I misunderstanding your post? Does hall of novice need to teach communication? See, my point is very simple:

1. Out of 4 members in the party, 3 wants big pulls. The 4th member should do it and not "k I'm not healing you, k I'm not tanking this, k I'm not gonna aoe"

2. In the event a majority wants big pulls but the healer or tank is new; communicate. "Hey I am new to the game / this class. Can we go at a slower pace please"

3. In the event communication does not work, adapt and learn and not be sour (or salty). The run would be over in 10 minutes instead of raging non stop for the next 10 months.

4. Duty finder is there for easy party access to dungeons. Roulettes is a mix between newbies and long time players of which both should be equally respected and not push expectations on them "oh just because I can do it".

Personally, when I got to stormblood and I've ran all the level 70 dungeons as first time without video references and I can hold my own weight as a healer. Yes I can do it. So? Should I expect every other tanks to do large pulls, too?

Adapt to the majority of party wants. This concept is so simple yet often ignored.

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That's my point. Hall of Novice DOESN'T say anything about communication. It also doesn't state anything about about 1-4 that you listed. That's why I said this has to be broken down to kindergarten level since there is such a divide. I abide by HoN. Clearly you do not.

Broken down into kindergarten levels, you say. Alright then, you do you.

I merely came into this thread and saw within a few pages on how people have this "me myself and I" mentality. I decided to jump in (which clearly was a huge mistake) to simply to state my opinion on this *issue* just as others did. I am not here to bicker with anyone on what exactly is the "correct solution". This is a fundamental issue with the very people who are playing this game and I for one am glad that this does not happen so frequently on the data server I'm on.

I will leave this thread now and I'll relish in the continued -meaningful- discussion on this issue. Please excuse me.

Yes, and then when you adapt to what the party wants you promptly wipe, because it turns out big pulls was more than the healer could handle, or the tank was slightly undergeared, so everyone dies, and then the whole party throws a hissy fit and blame the tank for dying even though they were the ones who made the demand, then the tank gets kicked anyway despite doing what the rest of the party wanted.

Been there, done that.

People often throw childish hissy fits when you give them what they ask for and it turns out what they wanted has undesirable consequences, because acknowledging that what they wanted was actually not a good idea under the circumstances is utterly beyond them. Poor risk assessment skills i suppose, combined with a good heaping of stupidity and ego.

And then there is the whole "DPS runs ahead and grabs extra mobs, tank grabs extra mobs off DPS, tank dies because of the extra incoming damage, wipe, DPS who pulled extra blames the tank for the wipe even though it's actually the DPS pullers fault" thing that happens sometimes.

The very first pull in Ala Mhigo where you can pull three packs, the mecha gorilla super pull later in the same dungeon, and the last pull in Hell's Lid are the most common places for these things to happen in level 70 content.
If the healer is not on the ball, or the tanks gear is not optimal, or the DPS is too slow with killing the mobs, then the feces are going to fly.

"BIG PULLS!"
*Everybody dies*
"BIG PULLS!"
*Everybody dies again*
"BIG PULLS!"
*Wiperoni*
"We refuse to learn from prior experience, DO BIG PULLS! IMMA RUN AHEAD AND PULL EXTRA IF THE TANK DOESN'T!"
*Wipe again*

Not gonna lie, I've never seen a group wipe in any of those three situations so... Maybe it's just you? Like I run with my gf who tanks and she's super casual and it always works out well. It's just about actually using the skills you have available to you and at 70 it's incredibly easy to stay alive in large packs as well as heal large packs.